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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 06 2012 13:44 shabinka wrote:
What's going to happen when it shown that Spades is not a hacker? What will CatZ, Illu, etc do when their 2 hour analysis is proven to be useless?
It's not possible to prove Spades wasn't hacking unless he's sitting on some FPVODS of the games in question. As someone who fully understands the limitations of the SC2 engine and readily available hacks I've got all the evidence I need to be certain he hacks. Nobody plays 100 games in a row where they look into the fog 100% of the time 100/100 and then put up 7 games in a row where you don't do it once. I'm actually amazed people are dumb enough to buy into the idea that there is no evidence. This is pretty clear evidence. It's far more convincing than the evidence used to 'prove' his guilt in BW.
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On June 06 2012 13:53 MegaFonzie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 13:43 Mallard86 wrote:
Has the SC2 community sunk this far? Its pretty pathetic to call out a pro player with such flimsy evidence. Its even more pathetic for the community to go on such a witchhunt and its just absolutely disgusting to have other pro players come out against this guy with baseless accusations and no evidence. If the community continues in this direction I do not doubt that the end of SC2 as an esport is near. I understand your point overall, but I'd argue that the hunt (I was looking for a better word) is based around more than 'baseless accusations and no evidence'
The witchhunt is based on flimsy circumstantial evidence. The "pro" player opinions and accusations are mostly piling on, drama mongering and without any evidence. I dont even really care about the community being stupid but when his peers so quickly come in to accuse him of regularly stream cheating on meaningful matches or note that they have felt like he was maphacking against them it makes me not want to watch this game anymore.
If pro players are going to randomly accuse him of maphacking then they should post the replays and note the actual evidence. They have the replays. They should be held to that standard. God knows Spades is being held to a much higher standard than some joe blow maphacker.
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I did not see anything that would lead me to think spades was hacking. some of that I always assume and try to do when playing tvt bc it happens so much.
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I wasn't going to post here, b/c looks like everything gets buried pretty fast, and anyway ppl seem entrenched in their relative camps. I've just been following the drama and such b/c it's entertaining, but tbh I don't really get why ppl are going on this crusade and it makes me a little dissappointed in the community : /
In my opinion, whether Spades cheated or not should be between him, his team, and his opponents. It isn't our business, and the way this whole thing has gone down has destroyed any chance for Spades to salvage his reputation if it turns out he didn't cheat, which is still a possibility despite all the evidence.
Whether or not Spades is guilty, I feel strongly that using the situation as a publicity stunt is shameful. This should have been an in-house affair so that the interested parties could investigate and reach a conclusion. Involving the public at large accomplishes nothing productive.
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On June 06 2012 14:07 Mallard86 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 13:53 MegaFonzie wrote:On June 06 2012 13:43 Mallard86 wrote:
Has the SC2 community sunk this far? Its pretty pathetic to call out a pro player with such flimsy evidence. Its even more pathetic for the community to go on such a witchhunt and its just absolutely disgusting to have other pro players come out against this guy with baseless accusations and no evidence. If the community continues in this direction I do not doubt that the end of SC2 as an esport is near. I understand your point overall, but I'd argue that the hunt (I was looking for a better word) is based around more than 'baseless accusations and no evidence' The witchhunt is based on flimsy circumstantial evidence. The "pro" player opinions and accusations are mostly piling on, drama mongering and without any evidence. I dont even really care about the community being stupid but when his peers so quickly come in to accuse him of regularly stream cheating on meaningful matches or note that they have felt like he was maphacking against them it makes me not want to watch this game anymore. If pro players are going to randomly accuse him of maphacking then they should post the replays and note the actual evidence. They have the replays. They should be held to that standard. God knows Spades is being held to a much higher standard than some joe blow maphacker.
I think you're wrong on these points:
It is not random accusation of maphacking by pros. There is nothing random about it.
It is not flimsy circumstantial evidence. It is very suspicious circumstantial evidence. And that evidence is not in short supply.
There are too many questionable occurances back to back in back to back games in 2 different series for it to be random luck. Plus there's the whole issue of his mechanics (lack FOW viewing, scanning using minimap) not lining up with his mechanics in the control group of his normal ladder games. It just doesn't make sense. And he, the only one who truly can, won't try to help make sense of it, he'd rather just play the victim and turn tail.
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On June 06 2012 14:07 Mallard86 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 13:53 MegaFonzie wrote:On June 06 2012 13:43 Mallard86 wrote:
Has the SC2 community sunk this far? Its pretty pathetic to call out a pro player with such flimsy evidence. Its even more pathetic for the community to go on such a witchhunt and its just absolutely disgusting to have other pro players come out against this guy with baseless accusations and no evidence. If the community continues in this direction I do not doubt that the end of SC2 as an esport is near. I understand your point overall, but I'd argue that the hunt (I was looking for a better word) is based around more than 'baseless accusations and no evidence' The witchhunt is based on flimsy circumstantial evidence. The "pro" player opinions and accusations are mostly piling on, drama mongering and without any evidence. I dont even really care about the community being stupid but when his peers so quickly come in to accuse him of regularly stream cheating on meaningful matches or note that they have felt like he was maphacking against them it makes me not want to watch this game anymore. If pro players are going to randomly accuse him of maphacking then they should post the replays and note the actual evidence. They have the replays. They should be held to that standard. God knows Spades is being held to a much higher standard than some joe blow maphacker.
Woah, woah. It isn't all circumstantial. There are several events within the replays that aren't circumstantial at all. Its everything around it that becomes circumstantial when looking for evidence of a map hacker. You can't just then say they have no evidence at all. They don't have enough for 100% concrete proof (and likely NEVER will), that doesn't mean they have no evidence.
He wasn't randomly accused either. The thread was started somewhat prematurely but there was certainly evidence to indicate he COULD be map hacking.
I'm all for being skeptical. I don't like the way this was handled either. But you have a ton of exaggerations in your post. A wheel full of semi-pro names wasn't spun with Spades' name randomly picked to have his career ruined.
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On June 06 2012 14:05 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 13:56 shabinka wrote:On June 06 2012 13:49 Gamegene wrote:On June 06 2012 13:44 shabinka wrote:
What's going to happen when it shown that Spades is not a hacker? What will CatZ, Illu, etc do when their 2 hour analysis is proven to be useless? LOL. Have you SEEN the replays or even the VOD of the analysis? It's pretty obvious to any player who is actually competent enough at the game. Pretty much all Terran players who aren't retarded know that the choices made, in cursor and army movement and in the decision making, were just NOT natural. Stop trying to be the one, the neo, etc. Actually watch those games if you are informed enough and make your own decisions on whether he was innocent or guilty, rather than simply criticizing everyone for taking active steps to discourage cheating. You can't stop 100 cheaters. You can scare 99 of them shitless by showing what you do to the 100th. I watched the anaylsis... didn't really convince me. If he was map hacking... why did he lose. I feel like that's the prevailing question. He LOST in a series where REAL MONEY was on the line. If he was hacking he would've won. Also in the analysis they went in with the assumption that he was hacking. Let me say this again, because I said it earlier in the thread, if you're going to prove something you can't start with what you're assuming is true. I recall them saying multiple times... 'see he's maphacking, it's very obvious by... ___'. Not this was somewhat suspicious, but maphacking is not the only reason. They never made any point to show any part of the game where he was 'playing legit' only where he 'might have been hacking'. And you're telling me with the awesome quality of replays that nothing gets fucked up when you're watching it? No texture glitches while playing or anything? The only conclusive evidence would be from a VOD of some sort. And you can't stop cheaters? Trust me, if they were trying hard enough they could stop them. Blizzard just doesn't give a shit. Some of their language was poor choice of words, but overall I think they handled it pretty well and gave their own opinions in a pretty objective manner. Most of the time after they said "You know how we know he is hacking? Watch" They would say aftewards "Yeah, that just doesn't seem right, something is really fishy/suspicious about that". You're right, they already had their minds made up before they showed their viewers and TT1....but that was because they had already reviewed all the games they brought up for a while before that. They didn't make their mind up that he was a hacker based on hearsay and conjecture, they went through and looked at the items that were fishy. You make it sound as if they accused him outright and then decided to try to prove it by analyzing the questionable play after they made that decision. EDIT: It is very poor logic to say that because he hacks he should win, and that losses somehow help prove he is clean. He is more likely to win by using unfair advantages in game knowledge, but it's hard to guarantee a win in a game as fast paced as SC2 even with hacks. Even if you see everything at all times, it's still hard to multitask, and still hard to play perfectly without mistakes.
If you can see someone's openin, army composition and size and such there is no reason you should not win. SC2 is a game of mechanics but even the best mechanics can not account for a lack of information. No matter how good you are at macro/micro you will still lose if you do not have knowledge of your opponent. Hence the importance of early game scouting, overlord placement, scans v. mules, etc. If you can see the whole map you should never be caught off guard in important parts of important games. Which with the drops in the Lucifron games showed.
If you look for something hard enough, you'll find it but it may not be the 'right' thing. I'm sure people can pick out just as many points in those replays to prove that he was playing legit. Going into the analysis they thought he was a hacker so they looked for a incident that was suspicious and said he must be hacking. They never said 'oh look at that, that's what a person would be doing if he wasn't hacking'. That's all I'm trying to say.
On June 06 2012 13:44 shabinka wrote:
What's going to happen when it shown that Spades is not a hacker? What will CatZ, Illu, etc do when their 2 hour analysis is proven to be useless?
It's not possible to prove Spades wasn't hacking unless he's sitting on some FPVODS of the games in question. As someone who fully understands the limitations of the SC2 engine and readily available hacks I've got all the evidence I need to be certain he hacks. Nobody plays 100 games in a row where they look into the fog 100% of the time 100/100 and then put up 7 games in a row where you don't do it once. I'm actually amazed people are dumb enough to buy into the idea that there is no evidence. This is pretty clear evidence. It's far more convincing than the evidence used to 'prove' his guilt in BW.
I never said there was 0 evidence, and he never plays a game where he looks into the FoW 100% of the time. Also any evidence gained from replayed needs to be seen as circumstancial. Things get screwed up in replay files all the time.
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Russian Federation484 Posts
On June 06 2012 14:17 shabinka wrote:
If you can see someone's openin, army composition and size and such there is no reason you should not win. SC2 is a game of mechanics but even the best mechanics can not account for a lack of information. No matter how good you are at macro/micro you will still lose if you do not have knowledge of your opponent. Hence the importance of early game scouting, overlord placement, scans v. mules, etc. If you can see the whole map you should never be caught off guard in important parts of important games. Which with the drops in the Lucifron games showed.
If you look for something hard enough, you'll find it but it may not be the 'right' thing. I'm sure people can pick out just as many points in those replays to prove that he was playing legit. Going into the analysis they thought he was a hacker so they looked for a incident that was suspicious and said he must be hacking. They never said 'oh look at that, that's what a person would be doing if he wasn't hacking'. That's all I'm trying to say.
They actually did and multiple times.
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Bye bye Spades~~ Justice is served
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On June 06 2012 14:07 starcraft911 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 13:44 shabinka wrote:
What's going to happen when it shown that Spades is not a hacker? What will CatZ, Illu, etc do when their 2 hour analysis is proven to be useless? It's not possible to prove Spades wasn't hacking unless he's sitting on some FPVODS of the games in question. As someone who fully understands the limitations of the SC2 engine and readily available hacks I've got all the evidence I need to be certain he hacks. Nobody plays 100 games in a row where they look into the fog 100% of the time 100/100 and then put up 7 games in a row where you don't do it once. I'm actually amazed people are dumb enough to buy into the idea that there is no evidence. This is pretty clear evidence. It's far more convincing than the evidence used to 'prove' his guilt in BW.
If you bothered to actually review the replays, you'd know that he looks into FOW quite a few times
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On June 06 2012 14:17 shabinka wrote:
If you can see someone's openin, army composition and size and such there is no reason you should not win. SC2 is a game of mechanics but even the best mechanics can not account for a lack of information. No matter how good you are at macro/micro you will still lose if you do not have knowledge of your opponent. Hence the importance of early game scouting, overlord placement, scans v. mules, etc. If you can see the whole map you should never be caught off guard in important parts of important games. Which with the drops in the Lucifron games showed.
If you look for something hard enough, you'll find it but it may not be the 'right' thing. I'm sure people can pick out just as many points in those replays to prove that he was playing legit. Going into the analysis they thought he was a hacker so they looked for a incident that was suspicious and said he must be hacking. They never said 'oh look at that, that's what a person would be doing if he wasn't hacking'. That's all I'm trying to say.
As a person who admits to having used hacks on FMP's in BW, I have to say you're so wrong on that point. No matter how much you know, there will always be a certain level of multitasking you must maintain, and when you're focusing on a micro battle during an attack, it's easy to slip up and overlook a drop, even if you have vision of it in the FOW. And those things are important, which is why it's so funny that he gained the benefit of some of them without having done them if you know what I mean.
His play in the games in question is so very different from his ladder games in the same situations on the same maps. That is enough for me to say "hmm" and take a closer look. And when I did I found other things. I actually watched all the replays in an effort to try to exhonerate him... but the things I found were just too suspicious and too numerous to refute.
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On June 06 2012 14:24 jacksonlee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 14:07 starcraft911 wrote:On June 06 2012 13:44 shabinka wrote:
What's going to happen when it shown that Spades is not a hacker? What will CatZ, Illu, etc do when their 2 hour analysis is proven to be useless? It's not possible to prove Spades wasn't hacking unless he's sitting on some FPVODS of the games in question. As someone who fully understands the limitations of the SC2 engine and readily available hacks I've got all the evidence I need to be certain he hacks. Nobody plays 100 games in a row where they look into the fog 100% of the time 100/100 and then put up 7 games in a row where you don't do it once. I'm actually amazed people are dumb enough to buy into the idea that there is no evidence. This is pretty clear evidence. It's far more convincing than the evidence used to 'prove' his guilt in BW. If you bothered to actually review the replays, you'd know that he looks into FOW quite a few times
"quite a few" could you put a number on that? Also no, when compared with stream vods it's not even close. Maybe once or twice a game?
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On June 06 2012 14:27 Chessz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 14:24 jacksonlee wrote:On June 06 2012 14:07 starcraft911 wrote:On June 06 2012 13:44 shabinka wrote:
What's going to happen when it shown that Spades is not a hacker? What will CatZ, Illu, etc do when their 2 hour analysis is proven to be useless? It's not possible to prove Spades wasn't hacking unless he's sitting on some FPVODS of the games in question. As someone who fully understands the limitations of the SC2 engine and readily available hacks I've got all the evidence I need to be certain he hacks. Nobody plays 100 games in a row where they look into the fog 100% of the time 100/100 and then put up 7 games in a row where you don't do it once. I'm actually amazed people are dumb enough to buy into the idea that there is no evidence. This is pretty clear evidence. It's far more convincing than the evidence used to 'prove' his guilt in BW. If you bothered to actually review the replays, you'd know that he looks into FOW quite a few times "quite a few" could you put a number on that? Also no, when compared with stream vods it's not even close. Maybe once or twice a game?
I already harped on this earlier, not gonna do it again, watch the entire replays from his first person point of view.
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Hey I don't know if you guys are aware of it, but there's this thing called game sense. People who have played competitively for a while can have a sense of what the other person is going to do. Particularly if they've studied their playstyle and techniques. And luck sometimes happens too. You guys are whiteknighting again. First Destiny, now Spades.
You know who has stupidly good gamesense, Flash. You know who else, Boxer (sometimes). and White-Ra and (insert pro player here)
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On June 06 2012 14:24 jacksonlee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 14:07 starcraft911 wrote:On June 06 2012 13:44 shabinka wrote:
What's going to happen when it shown that Spades is not a hacker? What will CatZ, Illu, etc do when their 2 hour analysis is proven to be useless? It's not possible to prove Spades wasn't hacking unless he's sitting on some FPVODS of the games in question. As someone who fully understands the limitations of the SC2 engine and readily available hacks I've got all the evidence I need to be certain he hacks. Nobody plays 100 games in a row where they look into the fog 100% of the time 100/100 and then put up 7 games in a row where you don't do it once. I'm actually amazed people are dumb enough to buy into the idea that there is no evidence. This is pretty clear evidence. It's far more convincing than the evidence used to 'prove' his guilt in BW. If you bothered to actually review the replays, you'd know that he looks into FOW quite a few times
Please cite timestamps of particular replays where I can find him doing this.
By the way I went back and watched him plant the CC on that Entombed game we were talking about. Your assertion was that he looks at FOW before placing the CC. Yes, that's true, but the camera didn't snap there until the command was issued, which aligns perfectly with the theory that the vision only centers on you looking at FOW if you right click there where you are looking, perform an action there (build), or suddenly gain vision there (scans).
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On June 06 2012 14:30 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 14:24 jacksonlee wrote:On June 06 2012 14:07 starcraft911 wrote:On June 06 2012 13:44 shabinka wrote:
What's going to happen when it shown that Spades is not a hacker? What will CatZ, Illu, etc do when their 2 hour analysis is proven to be useless? It's not possible to prove Spades wasn't hacking unless he's sitting on some FPVODS of the games in question. As someone who fully understands the limitations of the SC2 engine and readily available hacks I've got all the evidence I need to be certain he hacks. Nobody plays 100 games in a row where they look into the fog 100% of the time 100/100 and then put up 7 games in a row where you don't do it once. I'm actually amazed people are dumb enough to buy into the idea that there is no evidence. This is pretty clear evidence. It's far more convincing than the evidence used to 'prove' his guilt in BW. If you bothered to actually review the replays, you'd know that he looks into FOW quite a few times Please cite timestamps of particular replays where I can find him doing this. By the way I went back and watched him plant the CC on that Entombed game we were talking about. Your assertion was that he looks at FOW before placing the CC. Yes, that's true, but the camera didn't snap there until the command was issued, which aligns perfectly with the theory that the vision only centers on you looking at FOW if you right click there where you are looking, perform an action there (build), or suddenly gain vision there (scans).
you don't right click to put down a CC... and there is another instance where he looks to the right side of the map
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Watch his replays after being accused of maphacking and compare them to the replays of him "hacking" as well as to the replays where its 100% known hes not hacking. Try and find the correlation there. I for one think he did maphack but for the ones who think he didn't, give it a fair shot. I think Catz and them did a great job analyzing the replays.
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
is hack, or no hacks?
that is the question; both ways
ESPORTS has been hurt
I watched the anaylsis... didn't really convince me. If he was map hacking... why did he lose. I feel like that's the prevailing question. He LOST in a series where REAL MONEY was on the line. If he was hacking he would've won.
this by far is the best post in this thread
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On June 06 2012 14:11 Mercy13 wrote:
I wasn't going to post here, b/c looks like everything gets buried pretty fast, and anyway ppl seem entrenched in their relative camps. I've just been following the drama and such b/c it's entertaining, but tbh I don't really get why ppl are going on this crusade and it makes me a little dissappointed in the community : /
In my opinion, whether Spades cheated or not should be between him, his team, and his opponents. It isn't our business, and the way this whole thing has gone down has destroyed any chance for Spades to salvage his reputation if it turns out he didn't cheat, which is still a possibility despite all the evidence.
Whether or not Spades is guilty, I feel strongly that using the situation as a publicity stunt is shameful. This should have been an in-house affair so that the interested parties could investigate and reach a conclusion. Involving the public at large accomplishes nothing productive.
There are 100 replays available to view in addition to the ones in the OP. I think that if you were to take the time and do the footwork for yourself you wouldn't be on the fence on this one.
The only way Spades doesn't hack is if someone else was playing the games vs LucifroN. You don't just quit doing one of the most fundamental things in RTS overnight. We're talking about a guy who's been playing RTS for 10+ years. You don't just stop looking at the fog of war overnight. It's astonishing how many people seem to think it's reasonable to believe otherwise.
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A lot of people are just asserting that Spades is 100% guilty at this point. Fine.
Isn't that a really weak way to justify how this was handled though? To say, "Well, this public witch hunt was justified because we found a witch!" What if we hadn't? Is it seriously so hard to believe that despite the truth of the matter the community responded to this in an incredibly juvenile, emotional, and disgusting way?
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EPT
