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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 06 2012 14:58 Corrosive wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 14:48 jacksonlee wrote:On June 06 2012 14:39 starcraft911 wrote:On June 06 2012 14:24 jacksonlee wrote:On June 06 2012 14:07 starcraft911 wrote:On June 06 2012 13:44 shabinka wrote:
What's going to happen when it shown that Spades is not a hacker? What will CatZ, Illu, etc do when their 2 hour analysis is proven to be useless? It's not possible to prove Spades wasn't hacking unless he's sitting on some FPVODS of the games in question. As someone who fully understands the limitations of the SC2 engine and readily available hacks I've got all the evidence I need to be certain he hacks. Nobody plays 100 games in a row where they look into the fog 100% of the time 100/100 and then put up 7 games in a row where you don't do it once. I'm actually amazed people are dumb enough to buy into the idea that there is no evidence. This is pretty clear evidence. It's far more convincing than the evidence used to 'prove' his guilt in BW. If you bothered to actually review the replays, you'd know that he looks into FOW quite a few times I reviewed 100% of the replays posted in the 2 zip files provided by Spades as well as all of the replays in the OP. I don't know the exact number, I remember there were 52 replays in the first zip so I'm guessing around 115 or so in total. Every replay provided by Spades showed him look at the fog of war without having issued a command to that area. This includes a very short 6 or so minute game that ended before the first engagement. My process for reviewing each replay was to put it at 8x on Spades view until i saw fog then I'd rewind to normal. If he looked at the fog of war without moving a unit to that area I put a check box in my spreadsheet next to the replay name. When i was done with the zip file every check box was full. The only times you see FOW in the showmatch is when a command is issued. I did bother to actually review the replays. I think maybe you should take your own advice and look for yourself. herp derp. You said he doesn't look into FOW once in 7 games. Which is simply false. If I even have one example where he does, you are just one of those people fudging the numbers in favor of your argument. Between 11:21 to 11:23 in the entombed valley replay against lucifron. or 1:16:35 here: http://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/b/320407912I've posted this before. Someone posted the features of the maphack and it explicitly said that it would turn off the camera lock if a command was issued inside the FoW so that no commands are issued outside of camera view. It's a smart thing to include considering putting down a CC would automatically tip people off to hacking since the only way to put down a cc is by looking in the FoW.
Well, technically nothing stops you from just ordering your worker to the spot and building the cc with vision.
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On June 06 2012 14:58 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 14:52 mrtomjones wrote:On June 06 2012 14:45 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 14:40 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 14:34 Sideburn wrote:
A lot of people are just asserting that Spades is 100% guilty at this point. Fine.
Isn't that a really weak way to justify how this was handled though? To say, "Well, this public witch hunt was justified because we found a witch!" What if we hadn't? Is it seriously so hard to believe that despite the truth of the matter the community responded to this in an incredibly juvenile, emotional, and disgusting way? The question is: Would there actually have been a "witch hunt" if he wasn't guilty? Maybe the reason it seems like a witch hunt is because the evidence is so damning. This is what I say too. The witch hunt is the result of there actually being something to it. If it was all conjecture and not much substance to what the OP and countless pros have stated in analysis, it would be written off as trolling and closed. And Spades would definitely have not reacted the way he did. But because there were a ton of valid points, the discussion continued, and people reasoned different other points which has led us to where we are. There have been many witch hunts in this community that I believe were simply destructive and the end result was not worth all the hubbub but I don't believe this to be one of them. Actually pros like Nericho said that most of what the OP said is BS. People witch hunt every single controversy. If a player does something they call the sponsors instead of the team etc. The community has too much power and not enough responsibility to use it. If he is guilty then this was still wrong. You dont have real trials where anyone can show up and argue and judge. Of course. You don't have real trials where no judicial system exists. Therefore the community handles this the only way it can. Release the information. Everyone takes a look. Everyone makes up their own mind. And as I've said to others who try to use the analogy of the "run to the sponsors" debacle to try to demonize the way this was handled... They are two different issues and were handled in very different ways. I can't think of a more appropriate way for the issue of "is someone a hacker or not" to be handled than giving people with extensive game knowledge (a good portion of TL regulars) and letting them decide for themselves. Good blessings on the Mods here today for letting the discussion happen.
No of course not. Something like having respected/unbiased pros/managers/experts of an ethical level like Sheth/White ra/Nazgul doing it instead of us "knowledgeable" players is the right way.
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So the only times his screen is seen to look at the fow is when he is issuing an action in that area? Is that confirmed? This is really important, because if true it's damning.
Are Entombed 11:21 and 1:16:35 on catz's stream the only instances where he looks into fow?
On the other hand, if there is even one instance where he's seen to be looking at the fow without issuing a command, that's strong evidence that he's not using the hack, or at least not the one described here.
Stuff like responding to army movements is very circumstantial. Fishy, but not "beyond reasonable doubt." The camera's behavior would be, in my mind.
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On June 06 2012 14:52 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 14:45 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 14:40 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 14:34 Sideburn wrote:
A lot of people are just asserting that Spades is 100% guilty at this point. Fine.
Isn't that a really weak way to justify how this was handled though? To say, "Well, this public witch hunt was justified because we found a witch!" What if we hadn't? Is it seriously so hard to believe that despite the truth of the matter the community responded to this in an incredibly juvenile, emotional, and disgusting way? The question is: Would there actually have been a "witch hunt" if he wasn't guilty? Maybe the reason it seems like a witch hunt is because the evidence is so damning. This is what I say too. The witch hunt is the result of there actually being something to it. If it was all conjecture and not much substance to what the OP and countless pros have stated in analysis, it would be written off as trolling and closed. And Spades would definitely have not reacted the way he did. But because there were a ton of valid points, the discussion continued, and people reasoned different other points which has led us to where we are. There have been many witch hunts in this community that I believe were simply destructive and the end result was not worth all the hubbub but I don't believe this to be one of them. Actually pros like Nericho said that most of what the OP said is BS. People witch hunt every single controversy. If a player does something they call the sponsors instead of the team etc. The community has too much power and not enough responsibility to use it. If he is guilty then this was still wrong. You dont have real trials where anyone can show up and argue and judge.
No, the community has no power at all without any basis. If the community had power, for one thing, Starcraft 2 would be a BW clone with better graphics... I kid, I kid.
But seriously, the only reason this blew up was because there was actual evidence. If I make a thread about Idra map hacking, no matter the amount of notoriety Idra has, if I have no evidence, I will get shut down fast.
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On June 06 2012 14:40 Kentredenite wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 14:34 Sideburn wrote:
A lot of people are just asserting that Spades is 100% guilty at this point. Fine.
Isn't that a really weak way to justify how this was handled though? To say, "Well, this public witch hunt was justified because we found a witch!" What if we hadn't? Is it seriously so hard to believe that despite the truth of the matter the community responded to this in an incredibly juvenile, emotional, and disgusting way? The question is: Would there actually have been a "witch hunt" if he wasn't guilty? Maybe the reason it seems like a witch hunt is because the evidence is so damning.
Yeah like there was damning evidence to the witches beeing witches too and it was okay to burn them by a mob ...
Such posts are really unreasonable.
I dont say he is guilty, I dont say he isnt but I dont like the way this is handled.
There should be a neutral party that can be contacted and that can judge such cases according to certain rules and do so in a respectful manner. After their verdirct, the mob can flame on or what not but anything else is just not fair nor is it just.
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On June 06 2012 15:07 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 14:58 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 14:52 mrtomjones wrote:On June 06 2012 14:45 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 14:40 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 14:34 Sideburn wrote:
A lot of people are just asserting that Spades is 100% guilty at this point. Fine.
Isn't that a really weak way to justify how this was handled though? To say, "Well, this public witch hunt was justified because we found a witch!" What if we hadn't? Is it seriously so hard to believe that despite the truth of the matter the community responded to this in an incredibly juvenile, emotional, and disgusting way? The question is: Would there actually have been a "witch hunt" if he wasn't guilty? Maybe the reason it seems like a witch hunt is because the evidence is so damning. This is what I say too. The witch hunt is the result of there actually being something to it. If it was all conjecture and not much substance to what the OP and countless pros have stated in analysis, it would be written off as trolling and closed. And Spades would definitely have not reacted the way he did. But because there were a ton of valid points, the discussion continued, and people reasoned different other points which has led us to where we are. There have been many witch hunts in this community that I believe were simply destructive and the end result was not worth all the hubbub but I don't believe this to be one of them. Actually pros like Nericho said that most of what the OP said is BS. People witch hunt every single controversy. If a player does something they call the sponsors instead of the team etc. The community has too much power and not enough responsibility to use it. If he is guilty then this was still wrong. You dont have real trials where anyone can show up and argue and judge. Of course. You don't have real trials where no judicial system exists. Therefore the community handles this the only way it can. Release the information. Everyone takes a look. Everyone makes up their own mind. And as I've said to others who try to use the analogy of the "run to the sponsors" debacle to try to demonize the way this was handled... They are two different issues and were handled in very different ways. I can't think of a more appropriate way for the issue of "is someone a hacker or not" to be handled than giving people with extensive game knowledge (a good portion of TL regulars) and letting them decide for themselves. Good blessings on the Mods here today for letting the discussion happen. No of course not. Something like having respected/unbiased pros/managers/experts of an ethical level like Sheth/White ra/Nazgul doing it instead of us "knowledgeable" players is the right way.
Oh and also, throw in the chance for Spades to defend himself without a 1000 posts challenging him instead of a select feww rational people.
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On June 06 2012 15:10 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 14:52 mrtomjones wrote:On June 06 2012 14:45 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 14:40 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 14:34 Sideburn wrote:
A lot of people are just asserting that Spades is 100% guilty at this point. Fine.
Isn't that a really weak way to justify how this was handled though? To say, "Well, this public witch hunt was justified because we found a witch!" What if we hadn't? Is it seriously so hard to believe that despite the truth of the matter the community responded to this in an incredibly juvenile, emotional, and disgusting way? The question is: Would there actually have been a "witch hunt" if he wasn't guilty? Maybe the reason it seems like a witch hunt is because the evidence is so damning. This is what I say too. The witch hunt is the result of there actually being something to it. If it was all conjecture and not much substance to what the OP and countless pros have stated in analysis, it would be written off as trolling and closed. And Spades would definitely have not reacted the way he did. But because there were a ton of valid points, the discussion continued, and people reasoned different other points which has led us to where we are. There have been many witch hunts in this community that I believe were simply destructive and the end result was not worth all the hubbub but I don't believe this to be one of them. Actually pros like Nericho said that most of what the OP said is BS. People witch hunt every single controversy. If a player does something they call the sponsors instead of the team etc. The community has too much power and not enough responsibility to use it. If he is guilty then this was still wrong. You dont have real trials where anyone can show up and argue and judge. No, the community has no power at all without any basis. If the community had power, for one thing, Starcraft 2 would be a BW clone with better graphics... I kid, I kid. But seriously, the only reason this blew up was because there was actual evidence. If I make a thread about Idra map hacking, no matter the amount of notoriety Idra has, if I have no evidence, I will get shut down fast.
Go find a collection of games where he gets lucky and catches opponents in bad spots or avoids bad spots and call it hacking though and the potential for this crap to happen again goes way up. Maybe Idra beats MC and MVP back to back with some luck on his side and then people analyse it and determine it could only be hacks because Idra cant beat them. There are better ways to handle this.
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On June 06 2012 15:01 slimcognito2012 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 14:36 StarStrider wrote:
Those players exhibit the same godly sense game after game, whether in a showmatch, tourney, or random ladder games. Spades does not. It is inconsistent that his random lucky moves in multiple games in a row in a series don't happen regularly on ladder.
This, in combination with all the inconsistencies (in ladder pack vs these matches) of his scouting habits, scan habits, and mechanics of minimap vs screen scroll and FOW viewing make it very hard to write it off as "his starcraft senses were tingling" First of all, we have established that Spades has been a professional RTS gamer for years, right. Such a gamer should have at least a reasonable knowledge of timings and such and be able to rely on it within games. Secondly, we should assume that a professional gamer is rational and his opponent would have to acknowledge that rationality. If this is true we could assume that he would do something different after a cloak banshee opening fails. Bunker range could be explained away as a result of repetition. In game 4, moving the units around could be a result of scouting his base after seeing a medivac. The hellions prepared for the drop in game 5 could just be a lucky guess or he expected to be dropped. About the tower, Are you telling me that you've never missed a unit on the mini-map and then found it a while later and decided to do something with it? I'm not going to continue to respond to the accusations made by OP because it's already obvious that both him and you have decided that Spades is a maphacker and are searching for clues. I don't know if you knew this, but Spades was once the leader of Team ReIGN, you know that team that had those two canadians who continued to do well even though they never trained in Korea, KiWiKaKi and Slush. You don't get chosen as team captain over those two by collecting bottlecaps.
I never once doubted his skill as a player or experience with the game. I don't think he has cheated on and on the whole time in SC2, or that he even does it more often than not. He is a very intelligent person obviously. He is very capable of being the great player everyone knew him to be 2 days ago, without hacking. I think it would be extremely naive for anyone to say anything good that has come to him because of his performance was enhanced by hacking.
But in regards to the rationality that he has as a professional gamer, we should see that rationality reflected in his decisions, game after game, whether in tourney or ladder. In a ton of the decisions he made in the "tainted" games, they would be absolutely retarded and dumb things to do..... IF he didn't have higher knowledge (moving armies into unscouted areas, riskily unsieging/resieging randomly, scanning dumb locations etc). But he doesn't make those seemingly dumb but rewarded decisions when we look at the normal "clean" ladder games. Why is that?
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Dat shit cray
u should skate.
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On June 06 2012 15:07 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 14:58 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 14:52 mrtomjones wrote:On June 06 2012 14:45 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 14:40 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 14:34 Sideburn wrote:
A lot of people are just asserting that Spades is 100% guilty at this point. Fine.
Isn't that a really weak way to justify how this was handled though? To say, "Well, this public witch hunt was justified because we found a witch!" What if we hadn't? Is it seriously so hard to believe that despite the truth of the matter the community responded to this in an incredibly juvenile, emotional, and disgusting way? The question is: Would there actually have been a "witch hunt" if he wasn't guilty? Maybe the reason it seems like a witch hunt is because the evidence is so damning. This is what I say too. The witch hunt is the result of there actually being something to it. If it was all conjecture and not much substance to what the OP and countless pros have stated in analysis, it would be written off as trolling and closed. And Spades would definitely have not reacted the way he did. But because there were a ton of valid points, the discussion continued, and people reasoned different other points which has led us to where we are. There have been many witch hunts in this community that I believe were simply destructive and the end result was not worth all the hubbub but I don't believe this to be one of them. Actually pros like Nericho said that most of what the OP said is BS. People witch hunt every single controversy. If a player does something they call the sponsors instead of the team etc. The community has too much power and not enough responsibility to use it. If he is guilty then this was still wrong. You dont have real trials where anyone can show up and argue and judge. Of course. You don't have real trials where no judicial system exists. Therefore the community handles this the only way it can. Release the information. Everyone takes a look. Everyone makes up their own mind. And as I've said to others who try to use the analogy of the "run to the sponsors" debacle to try to demonize the way this was handled... They are two different issues and were handled in very different ways. I can't think of a more appropriate way for the issue of "is someone a hacker or not" to be handled than giving people with extensive game knowledge (a good portion of TL regulars) and letting them decide for themselves. Good blessings on the Mods here today for letting the discussion happen. No of course not. Something like having respected/unbiased pros/managers/experts of an ethical level like Sheth/White ra/Nazgul doing it instead of us "knowledgeable" players is the right way.
So you suggest building an Arbiter Tribunal for SC2? 
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On June 06 2012 15:03 Kotschmonaut wrote:
i surely hope he destroys asome asses at mlg anaheim.
that would be awesome, i hope he trains his heart out atm to make all those haters stfu.
People do hate repeat cheaters.
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There are laws in Canada, and many other countries, that restrict the media coverage of criminals that are charged, but still in the trial process.
Examples include:
Banning media footage of the "perp walk" because when people see someone in cuffs being walked by police, they presume guilt.
Banning comment boards on online news stories about charged (but not convicted) individuals.
In both cases the reason is to prevent the snowballing opinion of the public in a way that unfairly prejudices the accused. It is to keep with the presumption of innocent until proven guilty, and to ensure that the evidence is viewed objectively to preserve the fairness of the trial.
Team Liquid has given us an example of just how bad it can get.
The test for guilt in the countries of most TL-goers is "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt". What happened here is leaders in the community thought that Spade was hacking maybe 80%, or 90% - and then made public statements that they thought he hacked. Is a 10% or 20% chance of innocence "beyond a reasonable doubt"? Certainly not. But the effect of these statements was to make it 100% perfectly clear in the minds of some that he did in fact hack.
The snowball continued and soon many, many people were 100% certain that he hacked, when it is not 100% on the facts, and it doesn't not even meet the "beyond a reasonable doubt" threshold. People then started losing grip on what a just punishment was. Death threats? Really?
I suppose it is a mildly interesting case study on lynch-mob psychology, or something similar, if you didn't know that this is what always happens. I'm jaded to this stupidity at this point.
Edit. As a side note, if Spade is proven innocent, he can potentially make a decent sum in defamation suits. Beware, accusers.
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On June 06 2012 15:10 Flonomenalz wrote:
But seriously, the only reason this blew up was because there was actual evidence. If I make a thread about Idra map hacking, no matter the amount of notoriety Idra has, if I have no evidence, I will get shut down fast.
Nah. It will get shut down because Idra has fanboys, that are about as loyal as Destiny's. Only difference is that while Idra is notorious for being a BM jerk, he doesn't assume a divisive personality whenever he streams, so he doesn't have as many haters.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37065 Posts
I very much appreciate everyone who voted ^^
KEEP VOTING!
Poll: How well have you kept up with this thread?I've only read the pros' comments (84) 35% I've read the whole thing and I keep coming back for new posts (74) 31% I've read bits of this thread here and there (56) 24% I started reading the whole thing, realized how much I would actually have to read, and gave up (17) 7% Other (specify) (6) 3% 237 total votes Your vote: How well have you kept up with this thread? (Vote): I've read the whole thing and I keep coming back for new posts
(Vote): I've only read the pros' comments
(Vote): I've read bits of this thread here and there
(Vote): I started reading the whole thing, realized how much I would actually have to read, and gave up
(Vote): Other (specify)
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On June 06 2012 15:11 Holy_AT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 14:40 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 14:34 Sideburn wrote:
A lot of people are just asserting that Spades is 100% guilty at this point. Fine.
Isn't that a really weak way to justify how this was handled though? To say, "Well, this public witch hunt was justified because we found a witch!" What if we hadn't? Is it seriously so hard to believe that despite the truth of the matter the community responded to this in an incredibly juvenile, emotional, and disgusting way? The question is: Would there actually have been a "witch hunt" if he wasn't guilty? Maybe the reason it seems like a witch hunt is because the evidence is so damning. Yeah like there was damning evidence to the witches beeing witches too and it was okay to burn them by a mob ... Such posts are really unreasonable. I dont say he is guilty, I dont say he isnt but I dont like the way this is handled. There should be a neutral party that can be contacted and that can judge such cases according to certain rules and do so in a respectful manner. After their verdirct, the mob can flame on or what not but anything else is just not fair nor is it just.
That would be fine if such a party existed, but it doesn't. As is, the fact that this debacle was public gave more people access to the information needed to make a final decision.
Buried amongst the "useless" posts (like mine, I'll admit that) are some posts by people who would otherwise have not been involved with the judging that add very useful information. The disproving of the magic scan. Information on how certain hacks work.
While I'm not personally convinced 100% that Spades cheated, I don't think the fact that there's such a "witch hunt" going on is such a bad thing. If he really is innocent, it will come out. And then we'll all apologize profusely and hang our heads in shame. Just because it's impossible to prove 100% that he is innocent doesn't mean it can't be shown that there isn't a very high chance that he cheated.
Labeling this whole process a "witch hunt" is discouraging people from analyzing the data and finding new arguments for and against the case. The emotionally driven posts are an unhappy side-effect, but it's better than, say, letting WW do some internal analysis, and then coming out and saying "We looked at it and we think Spades probably cheated."
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On June 06 2012 15:08 Belisarius wrote:
So the only times his screen is seen to look at the fow is when he is issuing an action in that area? Is that confirmed? This is really important, because if true it's damning.
Are Entombed 11:21 and 1:16:35 on catz's stream the only instances where he looks into fow?
On the other hand, if there is even one instance where he's seen to be looking at the fow without issuing a command, that's strong evidence that he's not using the hack, or at least not the one described here.
Stuff like responding to army movements is very circumstantial. Fishy, but not "beyond reasonable doubt." The camera's behavior would be, in my mind.
That's the thing that got me. How WEIRD the camera movements are in the 'tainted' show games as compared to the 'clean' ladder games. Not only is there a lack of FOW views in the showgames as compared to the ladder, but the way the camera moves is so much more static and non-erratic in the showgames. Like, you know how a gold leaguer's camera moves around way less and doesn't bounce around the map quickly as a master+ would? That's the kind of difference I felt. Felt like a different person playing almost. The gameplay was the same....but the decisions based on information gathered were different you know?
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On June 06 2012 15:22 Kentredenite wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 15:11 Holy_AT wrote:On June 06 2012 14:40 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 14:34 Sideburn wrote:
A lot of people are just asserting that Spades is 100% guilty at this point. Fine.
Isn't that a really weak way to justify how this was handled though? To say, "Well, this public witch hunt was justified because we found a witch!" What if we hadn't? Is it seriously so hard to believe that despite the truth of the matter the community responded to this in an incredibly juvenile, emotional, and disgusting way? The question is: Would there actually have been a "witch hunt" if he wasn't guilty? Maybe the reason it seems like a witch hunt is because the evidence is so damning. Yeah like there was damning evidence to the witches beeing witches too and it was okay to burn them by a mob ... Such posts are really unreasonable. I dont say he is guilty, I dont say he isnt but I dont like the way this is handled. There should be a neutral party that can be contacted and that can judge such cases according to certain rules and do so in a respectful manner. After their verdirct, the mob can flame on or what not but anything else is just not fair nor is it just. That would be fine if such a party existed, but it doesn't. As is, the fact that this debacle was public gave more people access to the information needed to make a final decision. Buried amongst the "useless" posts (like mine, I'll admit that) are some posts by people who would otherwise have not been involved with the judging that add very useful information. The disproving of the magic scan. Information on how certain hacks work. While I'm not personally convinced 100% that Spades cheated, I don't think the fact that there's such a "witch hunt" going on is such a bad thing. If he really is innocent, it will come out. And then we'll all apologize profusely and hang our heads in shame. Just because it's impossible to prove 100% that he is innocent doesn't mean it can't be shown that there isn't a very high chance that he cheated. Labeling this whole process a "witch hunt" is discouraging people from analyzing the data and finding new arguments for and against the case. The emotionally driven posts are an unhappy side-effect, but it's better than, say, letting WW do some internal analysis, and then coming out and saying "We looked at it and we think Spades probably cheated."
You realize you are advocating for the presumption of guilty before being proven innocent? That doesn't seem wrong to you?
Why don't we do the same thing with rape charges?
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Its quite funny. Reading the thread, all those who use maphacks and are familiar with things like "camera locks," "apm drops" etc... are convinced that Spades is hacking. The morons who think if you have map hack you will always win are convinced Spades is innocent because he didn't play perfect games or react perfectly.
I think I know which side to believe.
Watched the replay pack, not all but about 10 or so games. Yup, he definitely hacks. 
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On June 06 2012 15:03 Kotschmonaut wrote:
i surely hope he destroys asome asses at mlg anaheim.
that would be awesome, i hope he trains his heart out atm to make all those haters stfu.
Even if he trains and becomes the best and wins MLG Anaheim and becomes the best sc2 player to ever exist, he still hacked. His results at live events have no baring on what was done. His success doesn't do away with his wrongdoings. As long as he's riding the denial bus people aren't going to let it go.
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On June 06 2012 15:25 Gnial wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 15:22 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 15:11 Holy_AT wrote:On June 06 2012 14:40 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 14:34 Sideburn wrote:
A lot of people are just asserting that Spades is 100% guilty at this point. Fine.
Isn't that a really weak way to justify how this was handled though? To say, "Well, this public witch hunt was justified because we found a witch!" What if we hadn't? Is it seriously so hard to believe that despite the truth of the matter the community responded to this in an incredibly juvenile, emotional, and disgusting way? The question is: Would there actually have been a "witch hunt" if he wasn't guilty? Maybe the reason it seems like a witch hunt is because the evidence is so damning. Yeah like there was damning evidence to the witches beeing witches too and it was okay to burn them by a mob ... Such posts are really unreasonable. I dont say he is guilty, I dont say he isnt but I dont like the way this is handled. There should be a neutral party that can be contacted and that can judge such cases according to certain rules and do so in a respectful manner. After their verdirct, the mob can flame on or what not but anything else is just not fair nor is it just. That would be fine if such a party existed, but it doesn't. As is, the fact that this debacle was public gave more people access to the information needed to make a final decision. Buried amongst the "useless" posts (like mine, I'll admit that) are some posts by people who would otherwise have not been involved with the judging that add very useful information. The disproving of the magic scan. Information on how certain hacks work. While I'm not personally convinced 100% that Spades cheated, I don't think the fact that there's such a "witch hunt" going on is such a bad thing. If he really is innocent, it will come out. And then we'll all apologize profusely and hang our heads in shame. Just because it's impossible to prove 100% that he is innocent doesn't mean it can't be shown that there isn't a very high chance that he cheated. Labeling this whole process a "witch hunt" is discouraging people from analyzing the data and finding new arguments for and against the case. The emotionally driven posts are an unhappy side-effect, but it's better than, say, letting WW do some internal analysis, and then coming out and saying "We looked at it and we think Spades probably cheated." You realize you are advocating for the presumption of guilty before being proven innocent? That doesn't seem wrong to you? Why don't we do the same thing with rape charges?
Because this is a forum, not a court of law.
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EPT
