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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 06 2012 14:14 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 14:07 Mallard86 wrote:On June 06 2012 13:53 MegaFonzie wrote:On June 06 2012 13:43 Mallard86 wrote:
Has the SC2 community sunk this far? Its pretty pathetic to call out a pro player with such flimsy evidence. Its even more pathetic for the community to go on such a witchhunt and its just absolutely disgusting to have other pro players come out against this guy with baseless accusations and no evidence. If the community continues in this direction I do not doubt that the end of SC2 as an esport is near. I understand your point overall, but I'd argue that the hunt (I was looking for a better word) is based around more than 'baseless accusations and no evidence' The witchhunt is based on flimsy circumstantial evidence. The "pro" player opinions and accusations are mostly piling on, drama mongering and without any evidence. I dont even really care about the community being stupid but when his peers so quickly come in to accuse him of regularly stream cheating on meaningful matches or note that they have felt like he was maphacking against them it makes me not want to watch this game anymore. If pro players are going to randomly accuse him of maphacking then they should post the replays and note the actual evidence. They have the replays. They should be held to that standard. God knows Spades is being held to a much higher standard than some joe blow maphacker. I think you're wrong on these points: It is not random accusation of maphacking by pros. There is nothing random about it. It is not flimsy circumstantial evidence. It is very suspicious circumstantial evidence. And that evidence is not in short supply. There are too many questionable occurances back to back in back to back games in 2 different series for it to be random luck. Plus there's the whole issue of his mechanics (lack FOW viewing, scanning using minimap) not lining up with his mechanics in the control group of his normal ladder games. It just doesn't make sense. And he, the only one who truly can, won't try to help make sense of it, he'd rather just play the victim and turn tail.
The only pro to post any sort of replay to back up their claim that Spades hacked was Illusion.
He posted 3 games that showed "proof" that Spades hacked based on his play and specific moves. Included was a text document listing these instances of proof. A good deal of it was just random "hey he didnt scout enough hacks!" but included were a few specific "suspicious acts". None of them were particularly suspicious unless you watched them assuming Spades had cheated.
Game 2- Spades moves his army back to his base just before Theo attacks from his base towards the middle of the map where Spades' army was.
-Spades had forgotten siege mode which he had just recently started. He was scanned and realized he probably didnt have enough forces to hold the attack. Theo had already moved his army once from his third to a position outside of his base before moving it again towards the center of the map. Spades moves his army BEFORE Theo moves his army out the second time and AFTER he is scanned. He leaves a unit at the watchtower and sees Theo's army following. He ends up losing the game.
-If he was hacking why didnt he position marines to defend the reaper that was on the way or why didnt he position his viking against the banshee that was incoming? He had an excuse to do so because he mineral lines were already defended with turrets which were a perfectly legitimate response to the scan that scouted the starport and double gas.
Game 3 supposedly has the real evidence.
"No scouting until scan ~6:30
Scans tech lab + starport bout to be swapped"
No scouting in TvT color me surprised! The scan was nothing special. It was a run of the mill lets see what he is doing scan centered in the main of Theo. Ive seen it a million times from every terran pro. Edit- In fact Theo scanned 15 seconds earlier at the same spot in Spades' base after failing to scout whether Spades had expanded.
"11:20 army is in middle and theo is doing a runby out of xel naga range with hellions, spades pulls back in position to defend the hellions"
10:45 Spades scouts 7 BFH with a marauder positioned outside Theo's base.
11:00 Spades engages said hellions at the watchtower and they pull back.
Spades drops some barracks and a few seconds later preemptively moves his units back from the center to defend the hellions. Now I dont know about you, but when I see 8 BFH I get worried about a runby. I think its pretty reasonable to put some units in position for such an occurrence.
"15+ sick game sense bottom left defense? What if top right."
Spades scans and sees Theo's army is not where it should be. He moves the bottom left to defend and guesses correctly. Its a pretty reasonable guess considering that is where his third is and the third on Antigua can be vulnerable if the rocks are broken down. Attacking the low ground near the main and elevatoring would probably not have been very effective because Theo had no anti air and could not have prevented medivac bombs.
"~16:10 sends marine to top right to scout for "runbys" with army, doesn't send to bottom left. Fishy or dumb play"
This is actually just incorrect. Spades actually does send a marine to the bottom left. You can clearly see him select it and move it but then he hits his army hotkey and overrides the marines move command because the marine is still hotkeyed. After that he moves a marine to the top right as well and catches the runby.
"16:55 scans perfect, why not scan right side again -can't be judged too much though."
Spades does a generic scan at the usual rally point and catches most of the army as it is moving for a bottom left attack.
Ultimately there is almost nothing that isnt seen every day when observing pro players. There are a couple correct guesses which are also accompanied by many incorrect guesses but because he was being sneaky about his cheating those were clearly intended. /end sarcasm.
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On June 06 2012 14:35 Flonomenalz wrote:
How can you go from mid masters T to 80% win rate #1 GM, and get accused of something, and instantly give in and play the victim, instead of brazenly proving you weren't hacking?
Please correct me if I am wrong but Fact #1 Spades placed top 32 in several MLGs and Fact #2 Was GM before dropping to Masters due at least in part to playing poker and other games and Fact #3 Will be competing this weekend.
You want Spades devoting hours to this or other threads instead of focusing on the actual game? And what more would you have Spades do? How many words would he have to write to convince you? How do you prove a negative?
There are many GMs every season who reach #1 for a little while, many GMs who were only Masters the previous season, and just as Spades has a history to suggest hacking he also has a history to suggest he can play at a very high (though not elite) level without hacks.
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On June 06 2012 15:42 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 13:55 StarStrider wrote:
You make some very very good points. But the key thing I don't understand is why he suddenly resieged in the position he did in Exhibit C above the red star . He wasn't in range of the ramp by resieging there. He wasn't in range of anything. He was still in "natural sieging position", just a little bit forward. The small .5 inch movement didn't help him gain position at all: The 'eventual siege location' in Exhibit D is where he wanted to get. Exhibit F. A minute earlier when theognis' second CC is destroyed. + Show Spoiler +Notice the marines are just at the edge of the back tank's cover. theognis could attack those marines without being hit by the tanks. If someone had their entire army and every SCV ready at the ramp it is possible the marines could be killed allowing the tanks to then be destroyed my units moving inside siege range. This is not to say theognis could have done it in this exact case (though maybe) but potentially in a game situation such as this. So the marines retreat to the tanks ASAP. Now the comparison, Exhibit G. + Show Spoiler +Note at 9:50 Spades does not have a good look at the ridge and that Tank 2's position is just a little bit back and above the spot where he leaves Tank 3 sieged at 10:10 while leaping the other two forward. Here's what could happen if he leaves Tank 2 siege and moves other tanks around. Exhibit H Picture of me vs myself in a custom game with some help from MSPaint: + Show Spoiler +The tanks move in range of the ledge where we must remember he lost a tank just a few minutes earlier. Look again at 10:10 in Exhibit G. With Tank 3 now in a position a bit forward and lower than where Tank 2 was, a good view of the ledge accomplished by the 'suspicious' pan down, and the viking in place, he can unsiege the two other tanks and move them to the ramp. This WAS NOT POSSIBLE with the original tank positions. If Tank 1 and Tank 3 could be unsieged and easily moved between the rocks and Tank 2, then the half inch creep is very suspicious. Since Tank 2 isn't in ideal position already, the act of unsieging and repositioning a few hexes over actually isn't that odd. With Tank 3 replacing and improving Tank 2's original position he can then do the proper leap toward the ramp which was the original goal.
Yep. I don't know if he hacked or not, but I'm not surprised if he didn't hack at this moment.
People keep saying that he hacked, because what's the chance that the tank can siege up right when the marines walk in.However, people don't actually think that what is the chance that Lucifon DOESN'T have marines up that cliff, or what is the chance that Lucifon DOESN'T have marines waiting up that ramp. If you think about it that way, you'll see that there're very slim chance that Lucifon doesn't have units up that clip AND doesn't have units ready to run down the ramp. Sieging there seems to be a good, normal decision to me. It's basic and simple knowledge of positioning. So is siege tank positioning. We always see GSL players put the siege tanks in that one place over and over again. Throughout practicing, players gradually optimize about their positioning, especially tank positioning. Yes, he sieged right when the units move in, but we can't exclude the fact that his siege positioning at that time was the most optimized one at that moment (can shoot up cliff, can shoot ramp, far enough to not get hit by bio)
So as I said, I don't know if he hacked or not, but I'm not surprised if he didn't hack at this moment.
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The Catz stream about the replays was very convincing. Along with Spades leaving his team. I would say it is official he hacked.
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On June 06 2012 15:59 gn1k wrote:
The Catz stream about the replays was very convincing. Along with Spades leaving his team. I would say it is official he hacked.
Alert the media, this guy would say it is official.
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On June 06 2012 15:42 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 13:55 StarStrider wrote:
You make some very very good points. But the key thing I don't understand is why he suddenly resieged in the position he did in Exhibit C above the red star . He wasn't in range of the ramp by resieging there. He wasn't in range of anything. He was still in "natural sieging position", just a little bit forward. The small .5 inch movement didn't help him gain position at all: The 'eventual siege location' in Exhibit D is where he wanted to get. Exhibit F. A minute earlier when theognis' second CC is destroyed. + Show Spoiler +Notice the marines are just at the edge of the back tank's cover. theognis could attack those marines without being hit by the tanks. If someone had their entire army and every SCV ready at the ramp it is possible the marines could be killed allowing the tanks to then be destroyed my units moving inside siege range. This is not to say theognis could have done it in this exact case (though maybe) but potentially in a game situation such as this. So the marines retreat to the tanks ASAP. Now the comparison, Exhibit G. + Show Spoiler +Note at 9:50 Spades does not have a good look at the ridge and that Tank 2's position is just a little bit back and above the spot where he leaves Tank 3 sieged at 10:10 while leaping the other two forward. Here's what could happen if he leaves Tank 2 siege and moves other tanks around. Exhibit H Picture of me vs myself in a custom game with some help from MSPaint: + Show Spoiler +The tanks move in range of the ledge where we must remember he lost a tank just a few minutes earlier. Look again at 10:10 in Exhibit G. With Tank 3 now in a position a bit forward and lower than where Tank 2 was, a good view of the ledge accomplished by the 'suspicious' pan down, and the viking in place, he can unsiege the two other tanks and move them to the ramp. This WAS NOT POSSIBLE with the original tank positions. If Tank 1 and Tank 3 could be unsieged and easily moved between the rocks and Tank 2, then the half inch creep is very suspicious. Since Tank 2 isn't in ideal position already, the act of unsieging and repositioning a few hexes over actually isn't that odd. With Tank 3 replacing and improving Tank 2's original position he can then do the proper leap toward the ramp which was the original goal.
That was brilliantly presented Sir, kudos!. Apparently, at least in this particular, StarStrider's analysis just saw what it wanted to see.. it is very easy to fall backward on 'evidence' once you are set on the outcome..
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This whole thing is a shitshow, obviously.
Conlcusive evidence is very difficult to find, because in nearly any case you could be lucky, and its not fair to doubt someone just beacuse its more likely.
I know I'm just another voice but please check this out:
I think the evidence at around 1:12:00 in this video http://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/b/320407912 (Catz's video) is extremely conclusive, more conclusive than any other evidence.
The scv scouts out the base, and yet spades never moves the camera to the base to see exactly what the buildings are (all he can know is the placement, number and presence of a tech lab OR reactor from seeing the minimap.
Nonetheless he reacts to the information he can only have by actually viewing the base.
That is more than any replay inaccuracy can account for, the choice is very odd, and the resulting actions are inexplicable.
The fact that one would blindly react correctly is possible, but there is no reason to NOT check if you have that information.
Especially in the early game, when apm is abundant, I would be surprised if across all tournament replays EVER there is a single replay where an scv travels into an enemy base as an initial scout and the player does not move the camera over to see build times, actual buildings, etc, it's ridiculous.
This is the most conclusive piece of evidence, I advise all to check it out.
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On June 06 2012 16:02 SkaPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 15:59 gn1k wrote:
The Catz stream about the replays was very convincing. Along with Spades leaving his team. I would say it is official he hacked. Alert the media, this guy would say it is official.
Yaaa. I love catZ and he's honestly one of the streamers who I used to watch the most.... but how many teams has been cats been on.... and now he's on the same "Root" team with destiny (who the community also loves and hates depending and the day of the week)
.....
drama drama drama.
Players play differently.
MLG WILL be watching them, and make sure they don't cheat.
Or the world will implode in 2012. You heard it here first.
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On June 06 2012 16:02 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 15:42 dvorakftw wrote:On June 06 2012 13:55 StarStrider wrote:
You make some very very good points. But the key thing I don't understand is why he suddenly resieged in the position he did in Exhibit C above the red star . He wasn't in range of the ramp by resieging there. He wasn't in range of anything. He was still in "natural sieging position", just a little bit forward. The small .5 inch movement didn't help him gain position at all: The 'eventual siege location' in Exhibit D is where he wanted to get. Exhibit F. A minute earlier when theognis' second CC is destroyed. + Show Spoiler +Notice the marines are just at the edge of the back tank's cover. theognis could attack those marines without being hit by the tanks. If someone had their entire army and every SCV ready at the ramp it is possible the marines could be killed allowing the tanks to then be destroyed my units moving inside siege range. This is not to say theognis could have done it in this exact case (though maybe) but potentially in a game situation such as this. So the marines retreat to the tanks ASAP. Now the comparison, Exhibit G. + Show Spoiler +Note at 9:50 Spades does not have a good look at the ridge and that Tank 2's position is just a little bit back and above the spot where he leaves Tank 3 sieged at 10:10 while leaping the other two forward. Here's what could happen if he leaves Tank 2 siege and moves other tanks around. Exhibit H Picture of me vs myself in a custom game with some help from MSPaint: + Show Spoiler +The tanks move in range of the ledge where we must remember he lost a tank just a few minutes earlier. Look again at 10:10 in Exhibit G. With Tank 3 now in a position a bit forward and lower than where Tank 2 was, a good view of the ledge accomplished by the 'suspicious' pan down, and the viking in place, he can unsiege the two other tanks and move them to the ramp. This WAS NOT POSSIBLE with the original tank positions. If Tank 1 and Tank 3 could be unsieged and easily moved between the rocks and Tank 2, then the half inch creep is very suspicious. Since Tank 2 isn't in ideal position already, the act of unsieging and repositioning a few hexes over actually isn't that odd. With Tank 3 replacing and improving Tank 2's original position he can then do the proper leap toward the ramp which was the original goal. That was brilliantly presented Sir, kudos!. Apparently, at least in this particular, StarStrider's analysis just saw what it wanted to see.. it is very easy to fall backward on 'evidence' once you are set on the outcome..
How ironic...Was it "brilliantly presented" (with kudos) simply because it agreed with your viewpoint? Apparently, you presumed that StarStrider's analysis "just saw what it wanted to see" because you have presumed the outcome that there was nothing to see in the first place! Both sets of exhibits provide circumstantial evidence. It is up to the jury to decide which is more convincing.
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On June 06 2012 15:57 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 15:42 dvorakftw wrote:On June 06 2012 13:55 StarStrider wrote:
You make some very very good points. But the key thing I don't understand is why he suddenly resieged in the position he did in Exhibit C above the red star . He wasn't in range of the ramp by resieging there. He wasn't in range of anything. He was still in "natural sieging position", just a little bit forward. The small .5 inch movement didn't help him gain position at all: The 'eventual siege location' in Exhibit D is where he wanted to get. Exhibit F. A minute earlier when theognis' second CC is destroyed. + Show Spoiler +Notice the marines are just at the edge of the back tank's cover. theognis could attack those marines without being hit by the tanks. If someone had their entire army and every SCV ready at the ramp it is possible the marines could be killed allowing the tanks to then be destroyed my units moving inside siege range. This is not to say theognis could have done it in this exact case (though maybe) but potentially in a game situation such as this. So the marines retreat to the tanks ASAP. Now the comparison, Exhibit G. + Show Spoiler +Note at 9:50 Spades does not have a good look at the ridge and that Tank 2's position is just a little bit back and above the spot where he leaves Tank 3 sieged at 10:10 while leaping the other two forward. Here's what could happen if he leaves Tank 2 siege and moves other tanks around. Exhibit H Picture of me vs myself in a custom game with some help from MSPaint: + Show Spoiler +The tanks move in range of the ledge where we must remember he lost a tank just a few minutes earlier. Look again at 10:10 in Exhibit G. With Tank 3 now in a position a bit forward and lower than where Tank 2 was, a good view of the ledge accomplished by the 'suspicious' pan down, and the viking in place, he can unsiege the two other tanks and move them to the ramp. This WAS NOT POSSIBLE with the original tank positions. If Tank 1 and Tank 3 could be unsieged and easily moved between the rocks and Tank 2, then the half inch creep is very suspicious. Since Tank 2 isn't in ideal position already, the act of unsieging and repositioning a few hexes over actually isn't that odd. With Tank 3 replacing and improving Tank 2's original position he can then do the proper leap toward the ramp which was the original goal. Yep. I don't know if he hacked or not, but I'm not surprised if he didn't hack at this moment. People keep saying that he hacked, because what's the chance that the tank can siege up right when the marines walk in.However, people don't actually think that what is the chance that Lucifon DOESN'T have marines up that cliff, or what is the chance that Lucifon DOESN'T have marines waiting up that ramp. If you think about it that way, you'll see that there're very slim chance that Lucifon doesn't have units up that clip AND doesn't have units ready to run down the ramp. Sieging there seems to be a good, normal decision to me. It's basic and simple knowledge of positioning. So is siege tank positioning. We always see GSL players put the siege tanks in that one place over and over again. Throughout practicing, players gradually optimize about their positioning, especially tank positioning. Yes, he sieged right when the units move in, but we can't exclude the fact that his siege positioning at that time was the most optimized one at that moment (can shoot up cliff, can shoot ramp, far enough to not get hit by bio) So as I said, I don't know if he hacked or not, but I'm not surprised if he didn't hack at this moment.
I am a mere mid masters Terran but I know that the range at which he suddenly sieged was out of range of the ramp (he could hit the bottom of the ramp just barely with the closest tank. And if he couldn't hit the ramp from there, the only reason to have sieged there is to hit units on the cliff edge. Which he could do from the position he was in previously. He was also far enough back not to get hit by bio previously but yet he felt the need to reposition. I submit that the reason he was repositioning was that he was trying to get to the optimal base siege position below the ramp, when he noticed a prime opportunity to shell the cliff again when he swiped his screen down into the FOW nearly at the heart of the base not just the cliff edge, and saw the army approaching up the cliff outcropping.
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Ppro gamers know how to play it out, there are certain mechanics you acknowledge to do the game moves right, different gamers do it in different styles though, the only suspicious way to do it is you don't know what the hell your opponents are doing but you are so lucky to make the exact right move. Although coincidence happens, sometimes those random decisions and moves make sense, but when there are a lot of lucky scenarios, especially those random stuff all goes in favor of one player, I don't think probability could explain.
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On June 06 2012 16:04 slam wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 16:02 SkaPunk wrote:On June 06 2012 15:59 gn1k wrote:
The Catz stream about the replays was very convincing. Along with Spades leaving his team. I would say it is official he hacked. Alert the media, this guy would say it is official. Yaaa. I love catZ and he's honestly one of the streamers who I used to watch the most.... but how many teams has been cats been on.... and now he's on the same "Root" team with destiny (who the community also loves and hates depending and the day of the week) ..... drama drama drama. Players play differently. MLG WILL be watching them, and make sure they don't cheat. Or the world will implode in 2012. You heard it here first.
A little bit later on that same video you see him MANAGING HIS ARMY (moving, unsieging, etc etc) WITHOUT LOOKING AT THEM... I mean, cmon, if you have an opposing army IN YOUR face would you move your tanks around unsieged without taking a close look at what you are doing?
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On June 06 2012 16:04 navy wrote:
This whole thing is a shitshow, obviously.
Conlcusive evidence is very difficult to find, because in nearly any case you could be lucky, and its not fair to doubt someone just beacuse its more likely.
I know I'm just another voice but please check this out:
I think the evidence at around 1:12:00 in this video (Catz's video) is extremely conclusive, more conclusive than any other evidence.
The scv scouts out the base, and yet spades never moves the camera to the base to see exactly what the buildings are (all he can know is the placement, number and presence of a tech lab OR reactor from seeing the minimap.
Nonetheless he reacts to the information he can only have be actually viewing the base.
That is more than any replay inaccuracy can account for, the choice is very odd, and the resulting actions are inexplicable.
The fact that one would guess correctly is possible but there is no reason to NOT check if you have that information.
Especially in the early game, when apm is abundant, I would be surprised if across all tournament replays EVER there is a single replay where an scv travels into an enemy base as an initial scout and the player does not move the camera over to see build times, actual buildings, etc, it's ridiculous.
This is the most conclusive piece of evidence, I advise all to check it out.
Another blatant point. He never once reviewed what the scv saw by looking into the FOW at what was scouted. Never once in that whole game. Why send the scv at all if you never gathered the info it provided?
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I don't want to make this a throw away post on a thread like this, but legitimately, spades has responded, imo, very vaguely and poorly and has 1 pro on his side, one pro not on his side and several in the middle. I think that at this point we should just run it through the gauntlet and say he didn't cheat, but if another thread of this caliber and notice gets published, we should be more suspicious of it. The fact is that he is a player that has not posted results and thus would be a prime target to use maphacks, but on the other hand I believe he is a smart guy who realizes that could only hurt his future performances. I am really stuck here.
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Honestly, why is this as big of a deal as it is?
I agree, people should not be allowed to hack, and if people have solid and legit evidence of a hacking incident, they should do their best to destroy that player. That player should have a bunch of people looking into him and deciding which side to pick, and if the evidence is good, then the player should be banned from things. If the evidence sucks, then the person posting should be banned from whichever forum he's posting in.
There are things to do and things not to do, and for the things to do, there are ways to do them.
1) more evidence in the OP, more replays, more everything.
2) Spades is retiring? Then just write down the guys name to check out if he ever spoofs in the future. Nobody will care about him after he retires, so why try so hard to put him down? He should just deny in detail everything people are saying, post up a bunch of replays of himself, and continue on to play WCS and MLG, and try to show good LAN results. Honestly, although his reputation is hurt for now, it's always been hurt, and he's still gathered a nice following. He did so through playing well, not through the entire population forgetting about his past mistakes. That's all he has to do again. As long as he's genuine, he's put too much time and effort into this to throw it all away just because of a random wrong individual.
3) If he doesn't actually retire like some have said? Then let his results decide your opinions from now on. Watch his stream, check him out when he plays MLG's etc. There are other hackers to focus on, so do your jobs as people and move on.
Moral of the story, this doesn't need to be discussed anymore. I'll do my part and not post in here anymore. Now gogo all you maphack finders and go find some more hackers and provide shit tons of evidence and clean up our beautiful community (don't ruin it with shit for evidence and a bunch of bogus claims).
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Just out of curiousity why not Spade drop a full replay pack? Wouldn't that either A give more proof he hacks or B help us terrans out. =]
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Okay I know I already posted, see earlier on this page, but I cannot make this clear enough.
There is no question that ALOT of the actions are fishy, but any scan, odd and inconsistent use of minimap rallying, unusually accurate minimap scans and extremely keen gameplay choices are NOT CONCLUSIVE.
The actions are super-super fishy but it's irresponsible to convict someone on this.
Even the near-impossiblly accurate siege and unsiege of tanks in that game against TheOgnis, it is possible he was just extremely lucky, or keen or trying to fake him out etc.
Also ,all the speculation on OH NOW HES USING THE HACK SO HIS CAMERA STICKS.
Again, really odd but also INCONCLUSIVE. This is because the actions are explicable, there can be an explanation for them, even if it is flimsy.
The action that there can be no explanation for is why spades would choose to not look at some extremely pertinent information that was available to him. The fact that he reacted correctly despite not looking is again odd, but, not impossible.
The fact that he did not harvest the information he had bought by scouting is inexplicable, and I believe that if he cannot explain WHY in that game he would choose to not move the camera over the base that was scouted, then he was conclusively hacking, and the lack of looking was indeed due to the influence of the hack.
Please have a look at my previous post, I feel that this point has been understated and is really the most conclusive piece of evidence because it truly cannot be explained.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14961645
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On June 06 2012 16:02 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 15:42 dvorakftw wrote:On June 06 2012 13:55 StarStrider wrote:
You make some very very good points. But the key thing I don't understand is why he suddenly resieged in the position he did in Exhibit C above the red star . He wasn't in range of the ramp by resieging there. He wasn't in range of anything. He was still in "natural sieging position", just a little bit forward. The small .5 inch movement didn't help him gain position at all: The 'eventual siege location' in Exhibit D is where he wanted to get. Exhibit F. A minute earlier when theognis' second CC is destroyed. + Show Spoiler +Notice the marines are just at the edge of the back tank's cover. theognis could attack those marines without being hit by the tanks. If someone had their entire army and every SCV ready at the ramp it is possible the marines could be killed allowing the tanks to then be destroyed my units moving inside siege range. This is not to say theognis could have done it in this exact case (though maybe) but potentially in a game situation such as this. So the marines retreat to the tanks ASAP. Now the comparison, Exhibit G. + Show Spoiler +Note at 9:50 Spades does not have a good look at the ridge and that Tank 2's position is just a little bit back and above the spot where he leaves Tank 3 sieged at 10:10 while leaping the other two forward. Here's what could happen if he leaves Tank 2 siege and moves other tanks around. Exhibit H Picture of me vs myself in a custom game with some help from MSPaint: + Show Spoiler +The tanks move in range of the ledge where we must remember he lost a tank just a few minutes earlier. Look again at 10:10 in Exhibit G. With Tank 3 now in a position a bit forward and lower than where Tank 2 was, a good view of the ledge accomplished by the 'suspicious' pan down, and the viking in place, he can unsiege the two other tanks and move them to the ramp. This WAS NOT POSSIBLE with the original tank positions. If Tank 1 and Tank 3 could be unsieged and easily moved between the rocks and Tank 2, then the half inch creep is very suspicious. Since Tank 2 isn't in ideal position already, the act of unsieging and repositioning a few hexes over actually isn't that odd. With Tank 3 replacing and improving Tank 2's original position he can then do the proper leap toward the ramp which was the original goal. That was brilliantly presented Sir, kudos!. Apparently, at least in this particular, StarStrider's analysis just saw what it wanted to see.. it is very easy to fall backward on 'evidence' once you are set on the outcome..
I thought it was a brilliant post too. But it is kind of insulting when you say that mine is only seeing what I wanted it to see, when I tried my best to approach it objectively as possible. His post is a rational post. But I don't think that this rationality can be applied to every single incident of Spades getting lucky in all 10~ games in question.
I would be much more convinced at Spades getting a luckily perfect timed siege (which I admit does happen sometimes in TvT) as dvorakftw pointed out if this kind of situation didn't happen over and over during this series and the other Lucifron series. And compare that to the abnormalities in these games vs the normalities in the ladder games.... inasmuch as I want to see the most logical interpretation of what I am looking at then yes I do see what I want to see . I wanted to prove him innocent when I first read this thread. But all the anomolies and blind luck combined over the whole series is pretty damning.
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On June 06 2012 16:11 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 15:57 canikizu wrote:On June 06 2012 15:42 dvorakftw wrote:On June 06 2012 13:55 StarStrider wrote:
You make some very very good points. But the key thing I don't understand is why he suddenly resieged in the position he did in Exhibit C above the red star . He wasn't in range of the ramp by resieging there. He wasn't in range of anything. He was still in "natural sieging position", just a little bit forward. The small .5 inch movement didn't help him gain position at all: The 'eventual siege location' in Exhibit D is where he wanted to get. Exhibit F. A minute earlier when theognis' second CC is destroyed. + Show Spoiler +Notice the marines are just at the edge of the back tank's cover. theognis could attack those marines without being hit by the tanks. If someone had their entire army and every SCV ready at the ramp it is possible the marines could be killed allowing the tanks to then be destroyed my units moving inside siege range. This is not to say theognis could have done it in this exact case (though maybe) but potentially in a game situation such as this. So the marines retreat to the tanks ASAP. Now the comparison, Exhibit G. + Show Spoiler +Note at 9:50 Spades does not have a good look at the ridge and that Tank 2's position is just a little bit back and above the spot where he leaves Tank 3 sieged at 10:10 while leaping the other two forward. Here's what could happen if he leaves Tank 2 siege and moves other tanks around. Exhibit H Picture of me vs myself in a custom game with some help from MSPaint: + Show Spoiler +The tanks move in range of the ledge where we must remember he lost a tank just a few minutes earlier. Look again at 10:10 in Exhibit G. With Tank 3 now in a position a bit forward and lower than where Tank 2 was, a good view of the ledge accomplished by the 'suspicious' pan down, and the viking in place, he can unsiege the two other tanks and move them to the ramp. This WAS NOT POSSIBLE with the original tank positions. If Tank 1 and Tank 3 could be unsieged and easily moved between the rocks and Tank 2, then the half inch creep is very suspicious. Since Tank 2 isn't in ideal position already, the act of unsieging and repositioning a few hexes over actually isn't that odd. With Tank 3 replacing and improving Tank 2's original position he can then do the proper leap toward the ramp which was the original goal. Yep. I don't know if he hacked or not, but I'm not surprised if he didn't hack at this moment. People keep saying that he hacked, because what's the chance that the tank can siege up right when the marines walk in.However, people don't actually think that what is the chance that Lucifon DOESN'T have marines up that cliff, or what is the chance that Lucifon DOESN'T have marines waiting up that ramp. If you think about it that way, you'll see that there're very slim chance that Lucifon doesn't have units up that clip AND doesn't have units ready to run down the ramp. Sieging there seems to be a good, normal decision to me. It's basic and simple knowledge of positioning. So is siege tank positioning. We always see GSL players put the siege tanks in that one place over and over again. Throughout practicing, players gradually optimize about their positioning, especially tank positioning. Yes, he sieged right when the units move in, but we can't exclude the fact that his siege positioning at that time was the most optimized one at that moment (can shoot up cliff, can shoot ramp, far enough to not get hit by bio) So as I said, I don't know if he hacked or not, but I'm not surprised if he didn't hack at this moment. I am a mere mid masters Terran but I know that the range at which he suddenly sieged was out of range of the ramp (he could hit the bottom of the ramp just barely with the closest tank. And if he couldn't hit the ramp from there, the only reason to have sieged there is to hit units on the cliff edge. Which he could do from the position he was in previously. He was also far enough back not to get hit by bio previously but yet he felt the need to reposition. I submit that the reason he was repositioning was that he was trying to get to the optimal base siege position below the ramp, when he noticed a prime opportunity to shell the cliff again when he swiped his screen down into the FOW nearly at the heart of the base not just the cliff edge, and saw the army approaching up the cliff outcropping.
He even looked almost entirely into the fog before he hit siege, as soon as he starts sieging the army magically comes into view.
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On June 06 2012 16:20 Silent12ill wrote:
Just out of curiousity why not Spade drop a full replay pack? Wouldn't that either A give more proof he hacks or B help us terrans out. =]
He shared about 100 replays of ladder games that seem clean. Which actually hurt his case since there are multiple distinct differences in mechanics between those and the specific 10+ in question and people were able to compare the two side by side.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/815/tankcreep5.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/815/tankcreep5.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/5752/tankcreep6.jpg)
