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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here 10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here. 08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) | ||
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TechNoTrance
Canada1007 Posts
On June 06 2012 16:49 Adonminus wrote: Spades said he doesn't hack, so he's innocent. No? Plus he would have won if he really hacked. Errr...it can be tough to detect sarcasm from text, but I really hope you are kidding with this logic... | ||
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Daniel C
Hong Kong1606 Posts
On June 06 2012 17:00 TechNoTrance wrote: Errr...it can be tough to detect sarcasm from text, but I really hope you are kidding with this logic... He forgot to say that all the evidence is circumstantial, so it doesn't count :D | ||
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StarStrider
United States689 Posts
On June 06 2012 16:53 dvorakftw wrote: He moves the camera to where his marine move command is at the very top of the screen, then he adjusts just a little higher to move his tanks. If he looks down because he has a hack that shows red units moving up, why unsiege at all? Why move his marines a half inch forward before panning down to look? The red units weren't moving up the cliff protrusion when he unsieged. He unsieged to try to get position on the ramp to start his march into the main. On his way there he panned down and saw that the army was now in fact moving all the way up the cliff protrusion. This is when he decided to suddenly siege. | ||
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
On June 06 2012 16:37 beatitudes wrote: im not that interested in this whole cheating drama situation, but i just would like to point out one thing if i may. I havent watched any of the replays but from what i gather many people find his games against theo and luci fishy. these games where 1. part of a online qualifier 2. part of a showmatch. now a lot of people are saying some of the most conclusive part of spades cheating is the difference between his 100 ladder games he provided and said games against theo and luci. Now you enter in Gix post about how him getting to rank 1 grandmaster is fishy. When you add both of these things together they don't actually make sense. If his ladder games seem legit as apposed to the others to you guys condemning him, then Gix post holds no merit that he supposedly cheated his way to rank 1 gm. because he didnt cheat on his last 100 ladder games he provided. this is the way i see this particular bit of information, i could be wrong. like i said i havent followed it too closely. It's impossible to draw conclusions out of this type of thing. I'm basing my conclusion purely off the facts so looking into this is just speculation. To play devils advocate, it is possible that in ladder games he doesn't hack or only uses a portion of it. For instance you can have the "production tab" turned on to see what your opponent is making without making use of the maphack function. While it doesn't provide the same benefits as a maphack, it can assure that you get build order advantages and aren't caught off guard by cloak for instance. All-in-all I don't think being rank 1 GM is that big of a deal. I've always been given the impression that most pros don't consider the ladder serious and play it mostly for upping their stream viewer count rather than play serious games. Looking at the top 5 ladder for GM right now my trainee has games off of sad (huk?), fenrir (some korean), ostojiy, and demuslim. The guy in 1st GoldenLighT neither of us have played before. Someone who plays the game as a pro should have no problem grinding to #1 with or without hacks. So yea, I don't think lack of hacks in ladder combined with becoming GM prove anything. I think that the post by giX added nothing and was just wild speculation. Gotta focus on the evidence. On June 06 2012 16:40 kineSiS- wrote: Okay look. Assuming that the replay packs and sample are not biased. Let me give you a rundown using statistics, not opinion, statistics. A larger sample, will lead to less variation reducing alpha level, and beta, which in turn increases the power of a test. Assuming that the test determines whether or not Spades has hacked. In a smaller sample, there is in turn greater variance. Leading to a greater chance that you could reject the null: Spades has not hacked, and assume the alternative hypothesis. Honestly, posts like these, IMHO, should have been closed, locked, deleted in any manner by the mods immediately after being posted. It was obviously a hot topic. It obviously had potential to ruin a career, any run of the mill idiot can tell you that. Sure leaving it open fosters debate. But its not true debate, because it is unhealthy and sick. A bunch of keyboard warriors hiding in the basement of their mothers house with thousands of miles separating them from the person they are supposedly confronting. This has been truly detrimental to his career, and considering that I can speak objectively considering I quit SC2 several months ago (5 to be exact) and have no experience with who this Spades is, am disappointed but not surprised at the actions and reactions of this community of sick people. A view of a professional is no better than another because in the end, if you presume someone is guilty. Everything else will FULFILL that assumption. Everything you see, that you supposedly are analyzing. The "concrete evidence" is all assumptions based upon ASSUMPTIONS. Sigh. Ridiculous. It's times like these I realize why I shun the Starcraft community. Because almost always people just don't realize the repercussions of their actions. It's sick. Utterly sick. Yea totally man. I agree with you. I think everyone looking into accusations should go into this with the mindset of assuming innocence but at the same time analyzing the available evidence. You need to look at the statistics of it and that's what I've done. I went though over 100 replays submitted by Spades himself from his ladder game. I've compared that with matches that he was suspected to have been cheating in. In 100% of the ladder games submitted by spades we saw a set of behaviors that coincided with his live-streamed games. In these games we see him look at the fog prior to scanning and checking fogged areas after having scouted an area. Areas of fog are shown in instances when a unit is and isn't being directly moved into the area as well as when a building is and isn't being constructed at a fogged location and in 100% of the games submitted by the OP as having been questionable we see another set of behaviors that are NOT seen in the first set of games. In this second set there are no instances of fog being shown unless there is a unit being moved into that area or a building being constructed. This second set of behaviors is consistent with known hacks and is why many people including myself have chosen to reject the null. It's extremely improbable that a person can play RTS for over 10 years and provide mountains of replays and live stream data showing one pattern and then they choose to quit doing that in this manner without having any explanation for the change. You could also hypothesize that it wasn't Spades playing in the showmatch and against theognis and that he was using a ringer who played without looking at the fog, but as far as I know he's not denying having played. | ||
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StarStrider
United States689 Posts
It has been interesting talking and debating with you and thank you for keeping the discussions logical, civil, and on point. See you next time. | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On June 06 2012 17:05 StarStrider wrote: The red units weren't moving up the cliff protrusion when he unsieged. He unsieged to try to get position on the ramp to start his march into the main. On his way there he panned down and saw that the army was now in fact moving all the way up the cliff protrusion. This is when he decided to suddenly siege. I only watched this scene on CatZ stream, but from what i could see, he first clicked his tanks about a cm screen distance away from the old position as shown by the click anymation. That indicates he wants to move them closer to the ramp which makes sense. Then, not even half way through, he decides otherwise. It might be a coincidence - i.e. "wait, unsieging now would make me too vulnerable, lets siege up again immediately" - but it just doesn't make any sense to me. | ||
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Adonminus
Israel543 Posts
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CursivE
Australia317 Posts
Does that seem strange to anyone else? Maybe I'm getting too nit-picky. | ||
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SEA KarMa
Australia452 Posts
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
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Battleaxe
United States843 Posts
On June 06 2012 17:19 Adonminus wrote: Anyone else is amazed that this thread got 200+ pages in 2 days? /thumbs This guy. In all fairness it has moved significantly slower in the past few hours then it was at zero hour. The train appears to be slowing down... ..for now! | ||
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warshop
Canada490 Posts
On June 06 2012 17:07 starcraft911 wrote: It's impossible to draw conclusions out of this type of thing. I'm basing my conclusion purely off the facts so looking into this is just speculation. To play devils advocate, it is possible that in ladder games he doesn't hack or only uses a portion of it. For instance you can have the "production tab" turned on to see what your opponent is making without making use of the maphack function. While it doesn't provide the same benefits as a maphack, it can assure that you get build order advantages and aren't caught off guard by cloak for instance. All-in-all I don't think being rank 1 GM is that big of a deal. I've always been given the impression that most pros don't consider the ladder serious and play it mostly for upping their stream viewer count rather than play serious games. Looking at the top 5 ladder for GM right now my trainee has games off of sad (huk?), fenrir (some korean), ostojiy, and demuslim. The guy in 1st GoldenLighT neither of us have played before. Someone who plays the game as a pro should have no problem grinding to #1 with or without hacks. So yea, I don't think lack of hacks in ladder combined with becoming GM prove anything. I think that the post by giX added nothing and was just wild speculation. Gotta focus on the evidence. Yea totally man. I agree with you. I think everyone looking into accusations should go into this with the mindset of assuming innocence but at the same time analyzing the available evidence. You need to look at the statistics of it and that's what I've done. I went though over 100 replays submitted by Spades himself from his ladder game. I've compared that with matches that he was suspected to have been cheating in. In 100% of the ladder games submitted by spades we saw a set of behaviors that coincided with his live-streamed games. In these games we see him look at the fog prior to scanning and checking fogged areas after having scouted an area. Areas of fog are shown in instances when a unit is and isn't being directly moved into the area as well as when a building is and isn't being constructed at a fogged location and in 100% of the games submitted by the OP as having been questionable we see another set of behaviors that are NOT seen in the first set of games. In this second set there are no instances of fog being shown unless there is a unit being moved into that area or a building being constructed. This second set of behaviors is consistent with known hacks and is why many people including myself have chosen to reject the null. It's extremely improbable that a person can play RTS for over 10 years and provide mountains of replays and live stream data showing one pattern and then they choose to quit doing that in this manner without having any explanation for the change. You could also hypothesize that it wasn't Spades playing in the showmatch and against theognis and that he was using a ringer who played without looking at the fog, but as far as I know he's not denying having played. This pretty much nailed it. No one changes such pattern/behavior over such a small period of time (it's impossible). | ||
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pileopoop
Canada317 Posts
On June 06 2012 17:21 TheRabidDeer wrote: In the day and age of being able to stream very easily... cant Spades just stream his screen to prove his innocence? I imagine if he is able to maintain his current form without hacks then he is more likely to be innocent... and at any LAN's he wont be able to hack anyway. He could and should, but it doesn't seem like he will even try. | ||
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Greenwizard
48 Posts
On June 06 2012 16:04 navy wrote: This whole thing is a shitshow, obviously. Conlcusive evidence is very difficult to find, because in nearly any case you could be lucky, and its not fair to doubt someone just beacuse its more likely. I know I'm just another voice but please check this out: I think the evidence at around 1:12:00 in this video http://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/b/320407912 (Catz's video) is extremely conclusive, more conclusive than any other evidence. The scv scouts out the base, and yet spades never moves the camera to the base to see exactly what the buildings are (all he can know is the placement, number and presence of a tech lab OR reactor from seeing the minimap. Nonetheless he reacts to the information he can only have by actually viewing the base. That is more than any replay inaccuracy can account for, the choice is very odd, and the resulting actions are inexplicable. The fact that one would blindly react correctly is possible, but there is no reason to NOT check if you have that information. Especially in the early game, when apm is abundant, I would be surprised if across all tournament replays EVER there is a single replay where an scv travels into an enemy base as an initial scout and the player does not move the camera over to see build times, actual buildings, etc, it's ridiculous. This is the most conclusive piece of evidence, I advise all to check it out. I just wanted to watch that and watched a little earlier..... how can some pro gamers have no ideea about the arrows scroll? Has anyone watched Slayers Boxer play in first person? I haven't watched many of his sc2 in first person but i know he does it here too. Or he hacks too ? So if you come with excuses like that be serious. By the way so you know what i mean : So to mr catz I want cookies. | ||
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TAAF
Switzerland226 Posts
On June 06 2012 17:19 Adonminus wrote: Anyone else is amazed that this thread got 200+ pages in 2 days? People are going absolute apeshit about this... but who wouldn't. I found it be really thrilling to investigate replays and read opinions in this thread. | ||
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mrtomjones
Canada4020 Posts
On June 06 2012 16:43 StarStrider wrote: I think the 'clean' replay pack games were played very recently, a good while since he made the climb to rank 1 GM. When were the games he is accused of hacking played? I assume during the same period of time as the 100 games? If he was going to hack in the online during that period why not during ladder? I also assume that people have saved replays of games against him from previous times. Perhaps that evidence should be gathered. There are MANY good arguments being made for both sides. He prepared for this show match. That in itself will cause his play style to be different than in ladder matches. If people want to say he is guilty then they REALLY need to do their research. This is someones career that is basically destroyed now. If he is guilty then those random replays from past online tournaments which could likely be acquired and from past ladder games will show similar things. There is no hacking in those 100 games from what I hear, so the ratio of good to bad is far in the favor of good. There is supposed conclusive evidence on both sides of this argument as well. People don't care or understand what they are doing to Spades by doing this. Give him his due process. This is a shitshow and a farce. No one stands a chance against a mob like this. | ||
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mrtomjones
Canada4020 Posts
On June 06 2012 17:31 warshop wrote: This pretty much nailed it. No one changes such pattern/behavior over such a small period of time (it's impossible). If you prepare for a match that you are taking seriously and have planned builds, do you not think that your play style MIGHT be different than simply playing on the ladder? That evidence is circumstantial. | ||
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TAAF
Switzerland226 Posts
On June 06 2012 17:34 Greenwizard wrote: I just wanted to watch that and watched a little earlier..... how can some pro gamers have no ideea about the arrows scroll? Has anyone watched Slayers Boxer play in first person? I haven't watched many of his sc2 in first person but i know he does it here too. Or he hacks too ? So if you come with excuses like that be serious. By the way so you know what i mean : + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p08QFrGa8Jo So to mr catz I want cookies. I dont actually know what this has to do with the statement in the quote. And if you are referring to the magic scan... it can not be done with the arrow keys... its way to slow. And most pros only use them in fights so they can still micro with the mouse and move the camera at the same time | ||
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mrtomjones
Canada4020 Posts
On June 06 2012 17:39 TAAF wrote: I dont actually know what this has to do with the statement in the quote. And if you are referring to the magic scan... it can not be done with the arrow keys... its way to slow. And most pros only use them in fights so they can still micro with the mouse and move the camera at the same time During my periodic checks of this thread I saw one video made by someone who was reproducing the effect of this magic scan. No idea what page it is on but he says he was able to do the same thing. Was interesting to watch. | ||
Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37032 Posts
Poll: How well have you kept up with this thread? I've only read the pros' comments (84) I've read the whole thing and I keep coming back for new posts (74) I've read bits of this thread here and there (56) I started reading the whole thing, realized how much I would actually have to read, and gave up (17) Other (specify) (6) 237 total votes Your vote: How well have you kept up with this thread? (Vote): I've read the whole thing and I keep coming back for new posts So it seems most ppl are reading the pros' comments only. Which is fine since I do that as well  | ||
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