EPTA lot is made of these "camera locks". In almost every single instance it is clear he is stopped over a position for a reason. You can see him resetting his SCVs after an attack and putting them on gas or back to mining. He is selecting buildings to building units. He is setting up rally points. There is not one single instance of a claimed "camera lock" where he is not doing something that can be seen in the replay that is legitimate.
[?] Spades hacking? - Page 228
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here 10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here. 08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) | ||
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Mallard86
186 Posts
A lot is made of these "camera locks". In almost every single instance it is clear he is stopped over a position for a reason. You can see him resetting his SCVs after an attack and putting them on gas or back to mining. He is selecting buildings to building units. He is setting up rally points. There is not one single instance of a claimed "camera lock" where he is not doing something that can be seen in the replay that is legitimate. | ||
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
On June 06 2012 17:34 Greenwizard wrote: I just wanted to watch that and watched a little earlier..... how can some pro gamers have no ideea about the arrows scroll? Has anyone watched Slayers Boxer play in first person? I haven't watched many of his sc2 in first person but i know he does it here too. Or he hacks too ? So if you come with excuses like that be serious. By the way so you know what i mean : So to mr catz I want cookies. The reason boxer uses the arrow keys is for situations involving micro. People using this setup don't use the arrow keys to scan when nothing is going on or in situations where micro isn't needed. The reason the arrow keys are used is because when you're microing you want to micro with your mouse without having to use it to scroll at the same time. When i play SC2, hon, or dota2 my camera controls are ESDF so that my mouse is always free to micro. It took me some time to get used to, but I feel it's far more efficient than what I did in BW (what you see boxer doing). But yea, this proves nothing though. Even if he scanned off screen it means nothing. Moving the camera means nothing. Blind countering means nothing. Scanning perfectly means nothing. All of those types of things can be chaulked up to luck or 'bad play'. Look at the facts, the things that are what they are regardless of who's looking at them. | ||
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RuMCaKe
United States559 Posts
I don't know what to think about the whole thing, I haven't watched the replays, and I am not planning on doing so, that being said, I don't want to put my opinion in on if I think he actually cheated or not. It just really bothers me the OP didn't want people to know who he really was. | ||
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Wyk
314 Posts
Theres something fishy alright... about what you are talking about, not about his playstyle. Pfff dont worry guys, lets do something childish like say "np spades, prove skill at MLG". Also, who in their right mind would listen to Catz? Did you actually UNDERSTAND what he was trying to say? I am truly amazed by this shitty world everyday. | ||
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
On June 06 2012 17:50 RuMCaKe wrote: What really irritates me about this the most, is that someone is willing to make a post, that potentially destroys someones career, but hides behind a smurf to conceal who they are. Why would someone do this? If you are confident in what your saying, there is no reason to hide. Only reason I can think of, is you were afraid the community would say your wrong, and then you'd be the one that looks bad. I don't know what to think about the whole thing, I haven't watched the replays, and I am not planning on doing so, that being said, I don't want to put my opinion in on if I think he actually cheated or not. It just really bothers me the OP didn't want people to know who he really was. TL knows who it is, but they have chosen not to reveal the identity at the current time. They stated that they may choose to do so at a later time. I think it's better for the OP to be anonymous personally because it keeps people from looking for ulterior motives in the OP. If you're looking at this objectively without bias it shouldn't matter who the OP is. If the OP is full of shit then you'll be able to discern that from the evidence. Though, out of curiosity I'd like to know who it is. My guess is probably a masters level player who just saw some inconsistencies and isn't a pro, but that's just a hunch. On June 06 2012 17:52 Wyk wrote: Ok so you guys are saying he hacked, but didnt win 3-0 even though he could see EVERYTHING and "blind countered" his opponent? Theres something fishy alright... about what you are talking about, not about his playstyle. Pfff dont worry guys, lets do something childish like say "np spades, prove skill at MLG". Also, who in their right mind would listen to Catz? Did you actually UNDERSTAND what he was trying to say? I am truly amazed by this shitty world everyday. Maphacking doesn't make you unbeatable, it just gives you an information advantage. If you're not good enough to properly use the information you're still going to lose. | ||
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Daniel C
Hong Kong1606 Posts
On June 06 2012 17:39 mrtomjones wrote: If you prepare for a match that you are taking seriously and have planned builds, do you not think that your play style MIGHT be different than simply playing on the ladder? That evidence is circumstantial. We ain't talking about play style buddy...we are talking about the most basic of the basic mechanics such as camera movement and looking into the fog of war. Why would those change for a match? p.s. Circumstantial evidence is still evidence and is admissible in court. | ||
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ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
They made such a fuss about the unsiegeing at minute 35 but didn't one bother to think "hey, if this guy can see the whole map, why didn't he defended his 3rd AND the drop in his base?" They even managed to find evidence that there was a slight chance of Spade to see that drop incoming. From that point on I didn't bother to follow their analysis because I did not agree with their reasoning. This is not how you judge a person. People get on board on the negative aspects of ESPORTS so easy it's sad. This guy could be a fair player and this community painted him in black just from speculations. | ||
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dvorakftw
681 Posts
On June 06 2012 17:46 Mallard86 wrote: I suspect that very few people actually watched any or most of the replays. I did watch every one and repeatedly examined every single one of the OP and Illusion's specific accusations and frankly it is absolutely hilarious how wrong and biased 90% of them are. Im sorry people but you need to get your heads out of your asses and actually watch them. OP frequently makes statements about sending "ALL" his army to defend "RIGHT" as Lucifron is attacking with zero information yet almost every single time it is completely false. Instead Spades would fend off an attack then reposition a portion of his army back to its original defensive position which would then happen to be attacked not RIGHT after but 20-30 seconds later or he would be moving the army back to its original position then be attacked while it was moving and he would reroute the army to the site of the attack. A lot is made of these "camera locks". In almost every single instance it is clear he is stopped over a position for a reason. You can see him resetting his SCVs after an attack and putting them on gas or back to mining. He is selecting buildings to building units. He is setting up rally points. There is not one single instance of a claimed "camera lock" where he is not doing something that can be seen in the replay that is legitimate. This is a big part of my annoyance at the CatZ/Illusion demonstration. They made big deals about any number of things that looked really bad but when I later had the replays to look at I found so much context being left out. I find the evidence lacking on the 32:50 Tal'darim, the minimap scouting on Entombed Valley(?), and now the half inch resiege. The worst one to me however was the seemingly blind correct movement on Antigua Shipyard so maybe tomorrow I will have a chance to look at that for myself. | ||
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TT1
Canada10024 Posts
On June 06 2012 17:58 starcraft911 wrote: TL knows who it is, but they have chosen not to reveal the identity at the current time. They stated that they may choose to do so at a later time. I think it's better for the OP to be anonymous personally because it keeps people from looking for ulterior motives in the OP. If you're looking at this objectively without bias it shouldn't matter who the OP is. If the OP is full of shit then you'll be able to discern that from the evidence. Though, out of curiosity I'd like to know who it is. My guess is probably a masters level player who just saw some inconsistencies and isn't a pro, but that's just a hunch. i think hes someone known or else they wouldnt be deliberating over whether or not to reveal his identity | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
though i looked a game i played vs him on ladder during his meteoric rise through GM s6 i don't know much about camera locking so if some one can fill in those blanks go right on ahead http://drop.sc/130143 + Show Spoiler + not a single scan until 15:00, but this is negligible since i'm assuming this style is fairly rigid despite protoss composition. though i did find it strange to see no urgency to establish infrastructure to hold any kind of 2 base push. nothing to write home about, though. 16:30-17:30 the 2 medivacs going around the map... the camera suddenly pans to the unscouted expansion, and the move command is corrected to fly outside the range of the cannon in the mineral line. and then the move command suddenly becomes an unload command. it's true that it's not ridiculous to assume that, after scanning the natural 3rd and not seeing a base there, that i might have taken an odd 3rd location, it still seems strange to me that the path/commands of the medivacs was altered in these ways. it's almost as if it's certain that there is in fact a base there, and that there are cannons in the mineral line. as you can see, he considers dropping them in the corner of the base, but then after looking at the fow for a second he changes the path so that they drop upon the cannons that are not yet completed. 21:35 - center your camera on his 4th. literally one second before the WP comes into sight, his army, which was entirely sans hotkeys before this point, is suddenly boxed and move commands are spammed right where he would defend the wp had he seen it coming. it appears to be an attempt to react naturally, though it occurs just a mere second before the wp comes into vision. 10 seconds later, instead of cleaning up the drop, he sends new commands to stop before the ramp. he has no vision and does not scan the middle, yet appears to sense that an army has just arrived.. | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On June 06 2012 17:46 Mallard86 wrote: I suspect that very few people actually watched any or most of the replays. I did watch every one and repeatedly examined every single one of the OP and Illusion's specific accusations and frankly it is absolutely hilarious how wrong and biased 90% of them are. Im sorry people but you need to get your heads out of your asses and actually watch them. OP frequently makes statements about sending "ALL" his army to defend "RIGHT" as Lucifron is attacking with zero information yet almost every single time it is completely false. Instead Spades would fend off an attack then reposition a portion of his army back to its original defensive position which would then happen to be attacked not RIGHT after but 20-30 seconds later or he would be moving the army back to its original position then be attacked while it was moving and he would reroute the army to the site of the attack. A lot is made of these "camera locks". In almost every single instance it is clear he is stopped over a position for a reason. You can see him resetting his SCVs after an attack and putting them on gas or back to mining. He is selecting buildings to building units. He is setting up rally points. There is not one single instance of a claimed "camera lock" where he is not doing something that can be seen in the replay that is legitimate. Read this blog, it's a funny take on the situation but actually provides much more examples than the replays of the showmatch. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=342813 Not to mention the accusations from pro players who watched the replays of the showmatch and replays he provided from ladder show his very different way of playing, from looking in the fog of war on ladder replays to NEVER doing it in the showmatch, not once is he naturally looking into it. The only times it does happen his screen jumps and at the same time buildings are put down (1CC is built while he is looking in the fog of war at 21:24 in the Daybreak game, which is impossible unless the hack jumps your screen there and he is actually not looking there in reality). He never uses his minimap to make buildings or move units in his ladder games/on stream, yet does so repeatedly in the showmatch, which further emphasizes the screen locks and jumps. Quoted from someone on reddit "For example, on shakuras he rallies his CC to his natural TWICE using the minimap, but on his stream he always rallies with scroll." Ultimately I trust pro player's opinion on this matter more than my own, and their opinion seems to be pretty clear about if he's cheating or not. | ||
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Veriol
Czech Republic502 Posts
But what is more strange to me is his approach to problem. If it was me and someone accused me of hacking and I would be certain I didn't hack I'd do basicaly anything to redeem myself. Spades has done very little to actually prove himself. He replied to illusion with few senteces about each point he made and mostly it was ''i took risk'' ''bad play'' etc.. This to me is so strange. On top of that he has many progamers backing him up and saying he didn't hack. Nerchio for example put more effort into defending him than he did himself and came up with excellent points. Whearas Spades is like ''nah, better leave team and wait how this turns out to be'' this approach alone is so strange and to me somewhat saying "I have guilty conscience''. | ||
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Greenwizard
48 Posts
On June 06 2012 17:39 TAAF wrote: I dont actually know what this has to do with the statement in the quote. And if you are referring to the magic scan... it can not be done with the arrow keys... its way to slow. And most pros only use them in fights so they can still micro with the mouse and move the camera at the same time Neah i just wanted to say it's pathetic. I mean if they would have been so "pro" they would have noticed HE NEVER REALLY LOOKS at the oponent base. The suspicious one would be when HE NEVER SCOUTS THE GAS and goes double expo ... but hey i am not the pro here. | ||
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Nachtwind
Germany1130 Posts
If you would say such things in puplic f.ex to a sportsman that he used drugs and can´t really backup your opinion ... you are fucked. This is no joke or fun anymore you try to ruin someones job. I have found no real evidence. There are no witnesses and there is no real prove. Only suspicions in all this thread and it should be closed now. Witchhunt is over and only the team should investigate any further. This community is a shit storm. | ||
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
On June 06 2012 18:00 ceaRshaf wrote: I didn't watch all the Catz analysis but only 1 hour. They made such a fuss about the unsiegeing at minute 35 but didn't one bother to think "hey, if this guy can see the whole map, why didn't he defended his 3rd AND the drop in his base?" They even managed to find evidence that there was a slight chance of Spade to see that drop incoming. From that point on I didn't bother to follow their analysis because I did not agree with their reasoning. This is not how you judge a person. People get on board on the negative aspects of ESPORTS so easy it's sad. This guy could be a fair player and this community painted him in black just from speculations. Because you're looking at a guy who's very familiar with hacking. 10+ years of playing RTS and prior admission of having hacked. If you're going to hack you can't make it obvious like Impa or you're going to get found out and exposed. TT1 said it best, sometimes you have to just lose to DTs. The other thing worth mentioning is that even pros miss stuff. I've seen a lot of pro BW players miss incoming drops that they should had vision of because they were focused on another area. Just because you have maphack doesn't mean your attention is always at the point where it matters. It's a maphack... it gives you information, it doesn't play the game for you. On June 06 2012 18:02 mTwTT1 wrote: i think hes someone known or else they wouldnt be deliberating over whether or not to reveal his identity Yea, I can see that as well. My reasoning behind thinking it was a mid masters was based on the analysis of the game provided by the OP, but yea... that's really not saying much. You're probably right. | ||
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dvorakftw
681 Posts
On June 06 2012 18:02 Alejandrisha wrote: but then after looking at the fow for a second I might take a look at the replay tomorrow but I like how the complaints so far has been he never looks at FoW and now we have a situation where he does and that is the suspicious thing. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. | ||
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hangene92
Canada258 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On June 06 2012 18:14 dvorakftw wrote: I might take a look at the replay tomorrow but I like how the complaints so far has been he never looks at FoW and now we have a situation where he does and that is the suspicious thing. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. as i said i'm not 100% certain what to make of camera locking/not looking at fow, but it's interesting to note that it is the only instance of the game where his camera does look at fow | ||
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Mallard86
186 Posts
Not to mention the accusations from pro players who watched the replays of the showmatch and replays he provided from ladder show his very different way of playing, from looking in the fog of war on ladder replays to NEVER doing it in the showmatch, not once is he naturally looking into it. 16:00 or so he looks into fog to move command some marines on entomb valley. I can recall several other games where he looked into the fog of war. In fact, several of the supposed proofs are from him looking in the fog of war then responding to that information. Once again people. Actually watch the replays. Frankly I did watch some of the Catz analysis and it was quite sloppy. Also his "magic scan" proof has already been debunked. | ||
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Daniel C
Hong Kong1606 Posts
On June 06 2012 18:14 dvorakftw wrote: I might take a look at the replay tomorrow but I like how the complaints so far has been he never looks at FoW and now we have a situation where he does and that is the suspicious thing. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the camera lock doesn't automatically activate if he looks at the fog right? On the other hand, when the camera look is activated, it automatically de-activates if the player issues a command into the fog... So perhaps he just forgot to activate the camera lock at the moment that he looked into the FOW. However, he remembers to activate it the other 99% of the time that he is playing with the maphack on, otherwise how could you explain the discrepancy in the number of times? | ||
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