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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 06 2012 15:29 Corrosive wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 15:25 Gnial wrote:On June 06 2012 15:22 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 15:11 Holy_AT wrote:On June 06 2012 14:40 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 14:34 Sideburn wrote:
A lot of people are just asserting that Spades is 100% guilty at this point. Fine.
Isn't that a really weak way to justify how this was handled though? To say, "Well, this public witch hunt was justified because we found a witch!" What if we hadn't? Is it seriously so hard to believe that despite the truth of the matter the community responded to this in an incredibly juvenile, emotional, and disgusting way? The question is: Would there actually have been a "witch hunt" if he wasn't guilty? Maybe the reason it seems like a witch hunt is because the evidence is so damning. Yeah like there was damning evidence to the witches beeing witches too and it was okay to burn them by a mob ... Such posts are really unreasonable. I dont say he is guilty, I dont say he isnt but I dont like the way this is handled. There should be a neutral party that can be contacted and that can judge such cases according to certain rules and do so in a respectful manner. After their verdirct, the mob can flame on or what not but anything else is just not fair nor is it just. That would be fine if such a party existed, but it doesn't. As is, the fact that this debacle was public gave more people access to the information needed to make a final decision. Buried amongst the "useless" posts (like mine, I'll admit that) are some posts by people who would otherwise have not been involved with the judging that add very useful information. The disproving of the magic scan. Information on how certain hacks work. While I'm not personally convinced 100% that Spades cheated, I don't think the fact that there's such a "witch hunt" going on is such a bad thing. If he really is innocent, it will come out. And then we'll all apologize profusely and hang our heads in shame. Just because it's impossible to prove 100% that he is innocent doesn't mean it can't be shown that there isn't a very high chance that he cheated. Labeling this whole process a "witch hunt" is discouraging people from analyzing the data and finding new arguments for and against the case. The emotionally driven posts are an unhappy side-effect, but it's better than, say, letting WW do some internal analysis, and then coming out and saying "We looked at it and we think Spades probably cheated." You realize you are advocating for the presumption of guilty before being proven innocent? That doesn't seem wrong to you? Why don't we do the same thing with rape charges? Because this is a forum, not a court of law.
I fail to see why your reasoning should change...
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On June 06 2012 15:28 starcraft911 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 15:03 Kotschmonaut wrote:
i surely hope he destroys asome asses at mlg anaheim.
that would be awesome, i hope he trains his heart out atm to make all those haters stfu. Even if he trains and becomes the best and wins MLG Anaheim and becomes the best sc2 player to ever exist, he still hacked. His results at live events have no baring on what was done. His success doesn't do away with his wrongdoings. As long as he's riding the denial bus people aren't going to let it go.
You say that now but i know for a fact that if spades won or even just has the best run of his life here at anahime he will not be known as just some hacker after this event.
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On June 06 2012 15:25 Gnial wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 15:22 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 15:11 Holy_AT wrote:On June 06 2012 14:40 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 14:34 Sideburn wrote:
A lot of people are just asserting that Spades is 100% guilty at this point. Fine.
Isn't that a really weak way to justify how this was handled though? To say, "Well, this public witch hunt was justified because we found a witch!" What if we hadn't? Is it seriously so hard to believe that despite the truth of the matter the community responded to this in an incredibly juvenile, emotional, and disgusting way? The question is: Would there actually have been a "witch hunt" if he wasn't guilty? Maybe the reason it seems like a witch hunt is because the evidence is so damning. Yeah like there was damning evidence to the witches beeing witches too and it was okay to burn them by a mob ... Such posts are really unreasonable. I dont say he is guilty, I dont say he isnt but I dont like the way this is handled. There should be a neutral party that can be contacted and that can judge such cases according to certain rules and do so in a respectful manner. After their verdirct, the mob can flame on or what not but anything else is just not fair nor is it just. That would be fine if such a party existed, but it doesn't. As is, the fact that this debacle was public gave more people access to the information needed to make a final decision. Buried amongst the "useless" posts (like mine, I'll admit that) are some posts by people who would otherwise have not been involved with the judging that add very useful information. The disproving of the magic scan. Information on how certain hacks work. While I'm not personally convinced 100% that Spades cheated, I don't think the fact that there's such a "witch hunt" going on is such a bad thing. If he really is innocent, it will come out. And then we'll all apologize profusely and hang our heads in shame. Just because it's impossible to prove 100% that he is innocent doesn't mean it can't be shown that there isn't a very high chance that he cheated. Labeling this whole process a "witch hunt" is discouraging people from analyzing the data and finding new arguments for and against the case. The emotionally driven posts are an unhappy side-effect, but it's better than, say, letting WW do some internal analysis, and then coming out and saying "We looked at it and we think Spades probably cheated." You realize you are advocating for the presumption of guilty before being proven innocent? That doesn't seem wrong to you? Why don't we do the same thing with rape charges?
Not only is comparing this to rape (even metaphorically) completely out of proportion, but we WOULD do the same thing if he had prior rape convictions...
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On June 06 2012 15:26 openbox1 wrote:Its quite funny. Reading the thread, all those who use maphacks and are familiar with things like "camera locks," "apm drops" etc... are convinced that Spades is hacking. The morons who think if you have map hack you will always win are convinced Spades is innocent because he didn't play perfect games or react perfectly. I think I know which side to believe. Watched the replay pack, not all but about 10 or so games. Yup, he definitely hacks. 
Tell that to Nerchio dear sir
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On June 06 2012 15:13 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 15:10 Flonomenalz wrote:On June 06 2012 14:52 mrtomjones wrote:On June 06 2012 14:45 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 14:40 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 14:34 Sideburn wrote:
A lot of people are just asserting that Spades is 100% guilty at this point. Fine.
Isn't that a really weak way to justify how this was handled though? To say, "Well, this public witch hunt was justified because we found a witch!" What if we hadn't? Is it seriously so hard to believe that despite the truth of the matter the community responded to this in an incredibly juvenile, emotional, and disgusting way? The question is: Would there actually have been a "witch hunt" if he wasn't guilty? Maybe the reason it seems like a witch hunt is because the evidence is so damning. This is what I say too. The witch hunt is the result of there actually being something to it. If it was all conjecture and not much substance to what the OP and countless pros have stated in analysis, it would be written off as trolling and closed. And Spades would definitely have not reacted the way he did. But because there were a ton of valid points, the discussion continued, and people reasoned different other points which has led us to where we are. There have been many witch hunts in this community that I believe were simply destructive and the end result was not worth all the hubbub but I don't believe this to be one of them. Actually pros like Nericho said that most of what the OP said is BS. People witch hunt every single controversy. If a player does something they call the sponsors instead of the team etc. The community has too much power and not enough responsibility to use it. If he is guilty then this was still wrong. You dont have real trials where anyone can show up and argue and judge. No, the community has no power at all without any basis. If the community had power, for one thing, Starcraft 2 would be a BW clone with better graphics... I kid, I kid. But seriously, the only reason this blew up was because there was actual evidence. If I make a thread about Idra map hacking, no matter the amount of notoriety Idra has, if I have no evidence, I will get shut down fast. Go find a collection of games where he gets lucky and catches opponents in bad spots or avoids bad spots and call it hacking though and the potential for this crap to happen again goes way up. Maybe Idra beats MC and MVP back to back with some luck on his side and then people analyse it and determine it could only be hacks because Idra cant beat them. There are better ways to handle this.
You seem to be confused. This has nothing about Spades getting 'lucky' or 'guessing' what was going on. If the ONLY thing you look at is the fog you'll be convinced assuming you understand the basics of how the game and hacks work.
You don't go from playing 10 years of RTS where you look at the minimap at least once in 99.99% of games and then play 7 in a row where you look at it 0% of the time. There are 2 explanations. 1) Spades didn't play in the series vs LucifroN and someone was ringing for him or 2) he was using a maphack that hides fog peeks. If it were the first scenario I think Spades would be saying that because that's far less of an offense than maphacking.
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On June 06 2012 15:31 Gnial wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 15:29 Corrosive wrote:On June 06 2012 15:25 Gnial wrote:On June 06 2012 15:22 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 15:11 Holy_AT wrote:On June 06 2012 14:40 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 14:34 Sideburn wrote:
A lot of people are just asserting that Spades is 100% guilty at this point. Fine.
Isn't that a really weak way to justify how this was handled though? To say, "Well, this public witch hunt was justified because we found a witch!" What if we hadn't? Is it seriously so hard to believe that despite the truth of the matter the community responded to this in an incredibly juvenile, emotional, and disgusting way? The question is: Would there actually have been a "witch hunt" if he wasn't guilty? Maybe the reason it seems like a witch hunt is because the evidence is so damning. Yeah like there was damning evidence to the witches beeing witches too and it was okay to burn them by a mob ... Such posts are really unreasonable. I dont say he is guilty, I dont say he isnt but I dont like the way this is handled. There should be a neutral party that can be contacted and that can judge such cases according to certain rules and do so in a respectful manner. After their verdirct, the mob can flame on or what not but anything else is just not fair nor is it just. That would be fine if such a party existed, but it doesn't. As is, the fact that this debacle was public gave more people access to the information needed to make a final decision. Buried amongst the "useless" posts (like mine, I'll admit that) are some posts by people who would otherwise have not been involved with the judging that add very useful information. The disproving of the magic scan. Information on how certain hacks work. While I'm not personally convinced 100% that Spades cheated, I don't think the fact that there's such a "witch hunt" going on is such a bad thing. If he really is innocent, it will come out. And then we'll all apologize profusely and hang our heads in shame. Just because it's impossible to prove 100% that he is innocent doesn't mean it can't be shown that there isn't a very high chance that he cheated. Labeling this whole process a "witch hunt" is discouraging people from analyzing the data and finding new arguments for and against the case. The emotionally driven posts are an unhappy side-effect, but it's better than, say, letting WW do some internal analysis, and then coming out and saying "We looked at it and we think Spades probably cheated." You realize you are advocating for the presumption of guilty before being proven innocent? That doesn't seem wrong to you? Why don't we do the same thing with rape charges? Because this is a forum, not a court of law. I fail to see why your reasoning should change...
My reasoning was that is it more important to find the truth than it is to adhere to "innocent until proven guilty". If the truth comes out in the end then it won't matter. Ends justifies the means and all that. "Innocent until proven guilty" just isn't as important as getting it right, to me.
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On June 06 2012 15:33 ObliviousNA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 15:25 Gnial wrote:On June 06 2012 15:22 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 15:11 Holy_AT wrote:On June 06 2012 14:40 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 14:34 Sideburn wrote:
A lot of people are just asserting that Spades is 100% guilty at this point. Fine.
Isn't that a really weak way to justify how this was handled though? To say, "Well, this public witch hunt was justified because we found a witch!" What if we hadn't? Is it seriously so hard to believe that despite the truth of the matter the community responded to this in an incredibly juvenile, emotional, and disgusting way? The question is: Would there actually have been a "witch hunt" if he wasn't guilty? Maybe the reason it seems like a witch hunt is because the evidence is so damning. Yeah like there was damning evidence to the witches beeing witches too and it was okay to burn them by a mob ... Such posts are really unreasonable. I dont say he is guilty, I dont say he isnt but I dont like the way this is handled. There should be a neutral party that can be contacted and that can judge such cases according to certain rules and do so in a respectful manner. After their verdirct, the mob can flame on or what not but anything else is just not fair nor is it just. That would be fine if such a party existed, but it doesn't. As is, the fact that this debacle was public gave more people access to the information needed to make a final decision. Buried amongst the "useless" posts (like mine, I'll admit that) are some posts by people who would otherwise have not been involved with the judging that add very useful information. The disproving of the magic scan. Information on how certain hacks work. While I'm not personally convinced 100% that Spades cheated, I don't think the fact that there's such a "witch hunt" going on is such a bad thing. If he really is innocent, it will come out. And then we'll all apologize profusely and hang our heads in shame. Just because it's impossible to prove 100% that he is innocent doesn't mean it can't be shown that there isn't a very high chance that he cheated. Labeling this whole process a "witch hunt" is discouraging people from analyzing the data and finding new arguments for and against the case. The emotionally driven posts are an unhappy side-effect, but it's better than, say, letting WW do some internal analysis, and then coming out and saying "We looked at it and we think Spades probably cheated." You realize you are advocating for the presumption of guilty before being proven innocent? That doesn't seem wrong to you? Why don't we do the same thing with rape charges? Not only is comparing this to rape (even metaphorically) completely out of proportion, but we WOULD do the same thing if he had prior rape convictions...
I used rape as an example because it has a clear impact on a person's reputation, and I presume people have thought about rape before (as your comment suggests you have) and what types of discussions are appropriate. I don't think it is out of proportion because the proportion doesn't matter.
Why don't we presume guilt for rape charges? The answer should have been some variation of: because of the consequences of that presumption.
Why are you so quick to have a strong opinion about this person? And why is your judgment so correct that you should be going out trying to sway other people to adopt your strong opinion? To me, this conduct is both irresponsible and immoral.
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On June 06 2012 13:55 StarStrider wrote:
You make some very very good points. But the key thing I don't understand is why he suddenly resieged in the position he did in Exhibit C above the red star . He wasn't in range of the ramp by resieging there. He wasn't in range of anything. He was still in "natural sieging position", just a little bit forward. The small .5 inch movement didn't help him gain position at all: The 'eventual siege location' in Exhibit D is where he wanted to get.
Exhibit F.
A minute earlier when theognis' second CC is destroyed.
+ Show Spoiler +
Notice the marines are just at the edge of the back tank's cover. theognis could attack those marines without being hit by the tanks. If someone had their entire army and every SCV ready at the ramp it is possible the marines could be killed allowing the tanks to then be destroyed my units moving inside siege range. This is not to say theognis could have done it in this exact case (though maybe) but potentially in a game situation such as this.
So the marines retreat to the tanks ASAP.
Now the comparison, Exhibit G.
+ Show Spoiler +
Note at 9:50 Spades does not have a good look at the ridge and that Tank 2's position is just a little bit back and above the spot where he leaves Tank 3 sieged at 10:10 while leaping the other two forward.
Here's what could happen if he leaves Tank 2 siege and moves other tanks around.
Exhibit H
Picture of me vs myself in a custom game with some help from MSPaint:
+ Show Spoiler +
The tanks move in range of the ledge where we must remember he lost a tank just a few minutes earlier.
Look again at 10:10 in Exhibit G. With Tank 3 now in a position a bit forward and lower than where Tank 2 was, a good view of the ledge accomplished by the 'suspicious' pan down, and the viking in place, he can unsiege the two other tanks and move them to the ramp. This WAS NOT POSSIBLE with the original tank positions.
If Tank 1 and Tank 3 could be unsieged and easily moved between the rocks and Tank 2, then the half inch creep is very suspicious. Since Tank 2 isn't in ideal position already, the act of unsieging and repositioning a few hexes over actually isn't that odd.
With Tank 3 replacing and improving Tank 2's original position he can then do the proper leap toward the ramp which was the original goal.
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On June 06 2012 15:25 Gnial wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 15:22 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 15:11 Holy_AT wrote:On June 06 2012 14:40 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 14:34 Sideburn wrote:
A lot of people are just asserting that Spades is 100% guilty at this point. Fine.
Isn't that a really weak way to justify how this was handled though? To say, "Well, this public witch hunt was justified because we found a witch!" What if we hadn't? Is it seriously so hard to believe that despite the truth of the matter the community responded to this in an incredibly juvenile, emotional, and disgusting way? The question is: Would there actually have been a "witch hunt" if he wasn't guilty? Maybe the reason it seems like a witch hunt is because the evidence is so damning. Yeah like there was damning evidence to the witches beeing witches too and it was okay to burn them by a mob ... Such posts are really unreasonable. I dont say he is guilty, I dont say he isnt but I dont like the way this is handled. There should be a neutral party that can be contacted and that can judge such cases according to certain rules and do so in a respectful manner. After their verdirct, the mob can flame on or what not but anything else is just not fair nor is it just. That would be fine if such a party existed, but it doesn't. As is, the fact that this debacle was public gave more people access to the information needed to make a final decision. Buried amongst the "useless" posts (like mine, I'll admit that) are some posts by people who would otherwise have not been involved with the judging that add very useful information. The disproving of the magic scan. Information on how certain hacks work. While I'm not personally convinced 100% that Spades cheated, I don't think the fact that there's such a "witch hunt" going on is such a bad thing. If he really is innocent, it will come out. And then we'll all apologize profusely and hang our heads in shame. Just because it's impossible to prove 100% that he is innocent doesn't mean it can't be shown that there isn't a very high chance that he cheated. Labeling this whole process a "witch hunt" is discouraging people from analyzing the data and finding new arguments for and against the case. The emotionally driven posts are an unhappy side-effect, but it's better than, say, letting WW do some internal analysis, and then coming out and saying "We looked at it and we think Spades probably cheated." You realize you are advocating for the presumption of guilty before being proven innocent? That doesn't seem wrong to you? Why don't we do the same thing with rape charges?
We do the exact same thing with rape charges. If a known rapist who has been tried and convicted of rape multiple times in the past is once again accused of rape, it is not unreasonable to now assume his guilt instead of giving him the luxury of innocence until proof that he enjoyed before his original conviction. Not in court I mean but in public opinion. It's the old "fool me once" thing.
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lol, seeker
I accidentally clicked on the wrong option in the poll. I love u but one of the numbers is wrong.
mistrial.
<3
(Seeker for mod already)
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On June 06 2012 15:35 Kentredenite wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 15:31 Gnial wrote:On June 06 2012 15:29 Corrosive wrote:On June 06 2012 15:25 Gnial wrote:On June 06 2012 15:22 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 15:11 Holy_AT wrote:On June 06 2012 14:40 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 14:34 Sideburn wrote:
A lot of people are just asserting that Spades is 100% guilty at this point. Fine.
Isn't that a really weak way to justify how this was handled though? To say, "Well, this public witch hunt was justified because we found a witch!" What if we hadn't? Is it seriously so hard to believe that despite the truth of the matter the community responded to this in an incredibly juvenile, emotional, and disgusting way? The question is: Would there actually have been a "witch hunt" if he wasn't guilty? Maybe the reason it seems like a witch hunt is because the evidence is so damning. Yeah like there was damning evidence to the witches beeing witches too and it was okay to burn them by a mob ... Such posts are really unreasonable. I dont say he is guilty, I dont say he isnt but I dont like the way this is handled. There should be a neutral party that can be contacted and that can judge such cases according to certain rules and do so in a respectful manner. After their verdirct, the mob can flame on or what not but anything else is just not fair nor is it just. That would be fine if such a party existed, but it doesn't. As is, the fact that this debacle was public gave more people access to the information needed to make a final decision. Buried amongst the "useless" posts (like mine, I'll admit that) are some posts by people who would otherwise have not been involved with the judging that add very useful information. The disproving of the magic scan. Information on how certain hacks work. While I'm not personally convinced 100% that Spades cheated, I don't think the fact that there's such a "witch hunt" going on is such a bad thing. If he really is innocent, it will come out. And then we'll all apologize profusely and hang our heads in shame. Just because it's impossible to prove 100% that he is innocent doesn't mean it can't be shown that there isn't a very high chance that he cheated. Labeling this whole process a "witch hunt" is discouraging people from analyzing the data and finding new arguments for and against the case. The emotionally driven posts are an unhappy side-effect, but it's better than, say, letting WW do some internal analysis, and then coming out and saying "We looked at it and we think Spades probably cheated." You realize you are advocating for the presumption of guilty before being proven innocent? That doesn't seem wrong to you? Why don't we do the same thing with rape charges? Because this is a forum, not a court of law. I fail to see why your reasoning should change... My reasoning was that is it more important to find the truth than it is to adhere to "innocent until proven guilty". If the truth comes out in the end then it won't matter. Ends justifies the means and all that. "Innocent until proven guilty" just isn't as important as getting it right, to me.
You just touched on one of the major issues in law, and why the law of evidence changes all the time. What is more important - truth or justice?
What amount of justice, or truth, are you willing to sacrifice to satisfy the other?
The law in Canada and the US keeps changing about torturing suspected criminals. Just 20 years ago police could put you in a interogation room without food or water for over 10 hours straight, yelling and beating you. Any confessions they got they could use against you in court. That was the "truth over justice" angle.
But now the law is different. Evidence, which could be used to find the truth, gets dismissed all the time in court because it was obtained inappropriately - such as without a warrant.
I guess we're just on different parts of the spectrum. Given that the cost of such a public inquiry is absolute: there is no going back. I don't see how any number of apologies will fix the damage caused should he be found innocent. So I do not think it is the way to go.
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Can we just call a spade a spade?
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On June 06 2012 15:42 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 15:25 Gnial wrote:On June 06 2012 15:22 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 15:11 Holy_AT wrote:On June 06 2012 14:40 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 14:34 Sideburn wrote:
A lot of people are just asserting that Spades is 100% guilty at this point. Fine.
Isn't that a really weak way to justify how this was handled though? To say, "Well, this public witch hunt was justified because we found a witch!" What if we hadn't? Is it seriously so hard to believe that despite the truth of the matter the community responded to this in an incredibly juvenile, emotional, and disgusting way? The question is: Would there actually have been a "witch hunt" if he wasn't guilty? Maybe the reason it seems like a witch hunt is because the evidence is so damning. Yeah like there was damning evidence to the witches beeing witches too and it was okay to burn them by a mob ... Such posts are really unreasonable. I dont say he is guilty, I dont say he isnt but I dont like the way this is handled. There should be a neutral party that can be contacted and that can judge such cases according to certain rules and do so in a respectful manner. After their verdirct, the mob can flame on or what not but anything else is just not fair nor is it just. That would be fine if such a party existed, but it doesn't. As is, the fact that this debacle was public gave more people access to the information needed to make a final decision. Buried amongst the "useless" posts (like mine, I'll admit that) are some posts by people who would otherwise have not been involved with the judging that add very useful information. The disproving of the magic scan. Information on how certain hacks work. While I'm not personally convinced 100% that Spades cheated, I don't think the fact that there's such a "witch hunt" going on is such a bad thing. If he really is innocent, it will come out. And then we'll all apologize profusely and hang our heads in shame. Just because it's impossible to prove 100% that he is innocent doesn't mean it can't be shown that there isn't a very high chance that he cheated. Labeling this whole process a "witch hunt" is discouraging people from analyzing the data and finding new arguments for and against the case. The emotionally driven posts are an unhappy side-effect, but it's better than, say, letting WW do some internal analysis, and then coming out and saying "We looked at it and we think Spades probably cheated." You realize you are advocating for the presumption of guilty before being proven innocent? That doesn't seem wrong to you? Why don't we do the same thing with rape charges? We do the exact same thing with rape charges. If a known rapist who has been tried and convicted of rape multiple times in the past is once again accused of rape, it is not unreasonable to now assume his guilt instead of giving him the luxury of innocence until proof that he enjoyed before his original conviction. Not in court I mean but in public opinion. It's the old "fool me once" thing.
I would agree that the threshold for guilt is lowered, but to presume guilt at the outset seems dangerous to me. It essentially means that even once you have served your penalty for your past transgressions, there is no redemption - ever. So many problems arise.
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The only law what counts are the TeamLiquid moderators. They decide to let the thread open/reopens it.
I´m really looking forward for their posting. I´m pretty sure the creator of the thread is a pretty big name. If he would not be known this would be closed within a heartbeat, because he has just 1 post.
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On June 06 2012 15:42 Gnial wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 15:33 ObliviousNA wrote:On June 06 2012 15:25 Gnial wrote:On June 06 2012 15:22 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 15:11 Holy_AT wrote:On June 06 2012 14:40 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 14:34 Sideburn wrote:
A lot of people are just asserting that Spades is 100% guilty at this point. Fine.
Isn't that a really weak way to justify how this was handled though? To say, "Well, this public witch hunt was justified because we found a witch!" What if we hadn't? Is it seriously so hard to believe that despite the truth of the matter the community responded to this in an incredibly juvenile, emotional, and disgusting way? The question is: Would there actually have been a "witch hunt" if he wasn't guilty? Maybe the reason it seems like a witch hunt is because the evidence is so damning. Yeah like there was damning evidence to the witches beeing witches too and it was okay to burn them by a mob ... Such posts are really unreasonable. I dont say he is guilty, I dont say he isnt but I dont like the way this is handled. There should be a neutral party that can be contacted and that can judge such cases according to certain rules and do so in a respectful manner. After their verdirct, the mob can flame on or what not but anything else is just not fair nor is it just. That would be fine if such a party existed, but it doesn't. As is, the fact that this debacle was public gave more people access to the information needed to make a final decision. Buried amongst the "useless" posts (like mine, I'll admit that) are some posts by people who would otherwise have not been involved with the judging that add very useful information. The disproving of the magic scan. Information on how certain hacks work. While I'm not personally convinced 100% that Spades cheated, I don't think the fact that there's such a "witch hunt" going on is such a bad thing. If he really is innocent, it will come out. And then we'll all apologize profusely and hang our heads in shame. Just because it's impossible to prove 100% that he is innocent doesn't mean it can't be shown that there isn't a very high chance that he cheated. Labeling this whole process a "witch hunt" is discouraging people from analyzing the data and finding new arguments for and against the case. The emotionally driven posts are an unhappy side-effect, but it's better than, say, letting WW do some internal analysis, and then coming out and saying "We looked at it and we think Spades probably cheated." You realize you are advocating for the presumption of guilty before being proven innocent? That doesn't seem wrong to you? Why don't we do the same thing with rape charges? Not only is comparing this to rape (even metaphorically) completely out of proportion, but we WOULD do the same thing if he had prior rape convictions... I used rape as an example because it has a clear impact on a person's reputation, and I presume people have thought about rape before (as your comment suggests you have) and what types of discussions are appropriate. I don't think it is out of proportion because the proportion doesn't matter. Why don't we presume guilt for rape charges? The answer should have been some variation of: because of the consequences of that presumption. Why are you so quick to have a strong opinion about this person? And why is your judgment so correct that you should be going out trying to sway other people to adopt your strong opinion? To me, this conduct is both irresponsible and immoral.
I don't know what you mean about being quick to have a strong opinion, or trying to sway others. This is my first post in the thread, no need to rage.
I'm just saying that its perfectly reasonable for people to look at the evidence and conclude hacking. There's a much smaller "burden of proof threshold" because he's done it before, and there is certainly ample evidence to suggest he's hacking, if not prove it.
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On June 06 2012 15:47 Gnial wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 15:35 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 15:31 Gnial wrote:On June 06 2012 15:29 Corrosive wrote:On June 06 2012 15:25 Gnial wrote:On June 06 2012 15:22 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 15:11 Holy_AT wrote:On June 06 2012 14:40 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 14:34 Sideburn wrote:
A lot of people are just asserting that Spades is 100% guilty at this point. Fine.
Isn't that a really weak way to justify how this was handled though? To say, "Well, this public witch hunt was justified because we found a witch!" What if we hadn't? Is it seriously so hard to believe that despite the truth of the matter the community responded to this in an incredibly juvenile, emotional, and disgusting way? The question is: Would there actually have been a "witch hunt" if he wasn't guilty? Maybe the reason it seems like a witch hunt is because the evidence is so damning. Yeah like there was damning evidence to the witches beeing witches too and it was okay to burn them by a mob ... Such posts are really unreasonable. I dont say he is guilty, I dont say he isnt but I dont like the way this is handled. There should be a neutral party that can be contacted and that can judge such cases according to certain rules and do so in a respectful manner. After their verdirct, the mob can flame on or what not but anything else is just not fair nor is it just. That would be fine if such a party existed, but it doesn't. As is, the fact that this debacle was public gave more people access to the information needed to make a final decision. Buried amongst the "useless" posts (like mine, I'll admit that) are some posts by people who would otherwise have not been involved with the judging that add very useful information. The disproving of the magic scan. Information on how certain hacks work. While I'm not personally convinced 100% that Spades cheated, I don't think the fact that there's such a "witch hunt" going on is such a bad thing. If he really is innocent, it will come out. And then we'll all apologize profusely and hang our heads in shame. Just because it's impossible to prove 100% that he is innocent doesn't mean it can't be shown that there isn't a very high chance that he cheated. Labeling this whole process a "witch hunt" is discouraging people from analyzing the data and finding new arguments for and against the case. The emotionally driven posts are an unhappy side-effect, but it's better than, say, letting WW do some internal analysis, and then coming out and saying "We looked at it and we think Spades probably cheated." You realize you are advocating for the presumption of guilty before being proven innocent? That doesn't seem wrong to you? Why don't we do the same thing with rape charges? Because this is a forum, not a court of law. I fail to see why your reasoning should change... My reasoning was that is it more important to find the truth than it is to adhere to "innocent until proven guilty". If the truth comes out in the end then it won't matter. Ends justifies the means and all that. "Innocent until proven guilty" just isn't as important as getting it right, to me. You just touched on one of the major issues in law, and why the law of evidence changes all the time. What is more important - truth or justice? What amount of justice, or truth, are you willing to sacrifice to satisfy the other? The law in Canada and the US keeps changing about torturing suspected criminals. Just 20 years ago police could put you in a interogation room without food or water for over 10 hours straight, yelling and beating you. Any confessions they got they could use against you in court. That was the "truth over justice" angle. But now the law is different. Evidence, which could be used to find the truth, gets dismissed all the time in court because it was obtained inappropriately - such as without a warrant. I guess we're just on different parts of the spectrum. Given that the cost of such a public inquiry is absolute: there is no going back. I don't see how any number of apologies will fix the damage caused should he be found innocent. So I do not think it is the way to go.
Fair enough, it's pretty much a question of personal principle at this point. The main reason I advocate allowing the process to remain open (as opposed to say, a rape case in court) is that the damage caused to Spades by the witch hunt is damage to his reputation, in the eyes of the community. If that same community then apologizes, that implies that what damage done to Spades' reputation is undone, and he may very much be better off from it from gaining sympathetic supporters.
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On June 06 2012 15:49 Gnial wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 15:42 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 15:25 Gnial wrote:On June 06 2012 15:22 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 15:11 Holy_AT wrote:On June 06 2012 14:40 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 14:34 Sideburn wrote:
A lot of people are just asserting that Spades is 100% guilty at this point. Fine.
Isn't that a really weak way to justify how this was handled though? To say, "Well, this public witch hunt was justified because we found a witch!" What if we hadn't? Is it seriously so hard to believe that despite the truth of the matter the community responded to this in an incredibly juvenile, emotional, and disgusting way? The question is: Would there actually have been a "witch hunt" if he wasn't guilty? Maybe the reason it seems like a witch hunt is because the evidence is so damning. Yeah like there was damning evidence to the witches beeing witches too and it was okay to burn them by a mob ... Such posts are really unreasonable. I dont say he is guilty, I dont say he isnt but I dont like the way this is handled. There should be a neutral party that can be contacted and that can judge such cases according to certain rules and do so in a respectful manner. After their verdirct, the mob can flame on or what not but anything else is just not fair nor is it just. That would be fine if such a party existed, but it doesn't. As is, the fact that this debacle was public gave more people access to the information needed to make a final decision. Buried amongst the "useless" posts (like mine, I'll admit that) are some posts by people who would otherwise have not been involved with the judging that add very useful information. The disproving of the magic scan. Information on how certain hacks work. While I'm not personally convinced 100% that Spades cheated, I don't think the fact that there's such a "witch hunt" going on is such a bad thing. If he really is innocent, it will come out. And then we'll all apologize profusely and hang our heads in shame. Just because it's impossible to prove 100% that he is innocent doesn't mean it can't be shown that there isn't a very high chance that he cheated. Labeling this whole process a "witch hunt" is discouraging people from analyzing the data and finding new arguments for and against the case. The emotionally driven posts are an unhappy side-effect, but it's better than, say, letting WW do some internal analysis, and then coming out and saying "We looked at it and we think Spades probably cheated." You realize you are advocating for the presumption of guilty before being proven innocent? That doesn't seem wrong to you? Why don't we do the same thing with rape charges? We do the exact same thing with rape charges. If a known rapist who has been tried and convicted of rape multiple times in the past is once again accused of rape, it is not unreasonable to now assume his guilt instead of giving him the luxury of innocence until proof that he enjoyed before his original conviction. Not in court I mean but in public opinion. It's the old "fool me once" thing. I would agree that the threshold for guilt is lowered, but to presume guilt at the outset seems dangerous to me. It essentially means that even once you have served your penalty for your past transgressions, there is no redemption - ever. So many problems arise.
That's what I meant of course. The threshold for guilt is lowered. People will have a predisposition now that they didn't before when looking at the evidence. Doesn't mean you shouldn't get a fair trial, but mos def the preponderance will be colored by the fact that this guy has raped before. It's a natural response.
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On June 06 2012 15:51 USvBleakill wrote:
The only law what counts are the TeamLiquid moderators. They decide to let the thread open/reopens it.
I´m really looking forward for their posting. I´m pretty sure the creator of the thread is a pretty big name. If he would not be known this would be closed within a heartbeat, because he has just 1 post.
If you are actually curious as to the identity of Drolets check out Gheed's blog where a lot of us are working on finding the OP of this thread, you can find it here http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=342492
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On June 06 2012 15:51 Kentredenite wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 15:47 Gnial wrote:On June 06 2012 15:35 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 15:31 Gnial wrote:On June 06 2012 15:29 Corrosive wrote:On June 06 2012 15:25 Gnial wrote:On June 06 2012 15:22 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 15:11 Holy_AT wrote:On June 06 2012 14:40 Kentredenite wrote:On June 06 2012 14:34 Sideburn wrote:
A lot of people are just asserting that Spades is 100% guilty at this point. Fine.
Isn't that a really weak way to justify how this was handled though? To say, "Well, this public witch hunt was justified because we found a witch!" What if we hadn't? Is it seriously so hard to believe that despite the truth of the matter the community responded to this in an incredibly juvenile, emotional, and disgusting way? The question is: Would there actually have been a "witch hunt" if he wasn't guilty? Maybe the reason it seems like a witch hunt is because the evidence is so damning. Yeah like there was damning evidence to the witches beeing witches too and it was okay to burn them by a mob ... Such posts are really unreasonable. I dont say he is guilty, I dont say he isnt but I dont like the way this is handled. There should be a neutral party that can be contacted and that can judge such cases according to certain rules and do so in a respectful manner. After their verdirct, the mob can flame on or what not but anything else is just not fair nor is it just. That would be fine if such a party existed, but it doesn't. As is, the fact that this debacle was public gave more people access to the information needed to make a final decision. Buried amongst the "useless" posts (like mine, I'll admit that) are some posts by people who would otherwise have not been involved with the judging that add very useful information. The disproving of the magic scan. Information on how certain hacks work. While I'm not personally convinced 100% that Spades cheated, I don't think the fact that there's such a "witch hunt" going on is such a bad thing. If he really is innocent, it will come out. And then we'll all apologize profusely and hang our heads in shame. Just because it's impossible to prove 100% that he is innocent doesn't mean it can't be shown that there isn't a very high chance that he cheated. Labeling this whole process a "witch hunt" is discouraging people from analyzing the data and finding new arguments for and against the case. The emotionally driven posts are an unhappy side-effect, but it's better than, say, letting WW do some internal analysis, and then coming out and saying "We looked at it and we think Spades probably cheated." You realize you are advocating for the presumption of guilty before being proven innocent? That doesn't seem wrong to you? Why don't we do the same thing with rape charges? Because this is a forum, not a court of law. I fail to see why your reasoning should change... My reasoning was that is it more important to find the truth than it is to adhere to "innocent until proven guilty". If the truth comes out in the end then it won't matter. Ends justifies the means and all that. "Innocent until proven guilty" just isn't as important as getting it right, to me. You just touched on one of the major issues in law, and why the law of evidence changes all the time. What is more important - truth or justice? What amount of justice, or truth, are you willing to sacrifice to satisfy the other? The law in Canada and the US keeps changing about torturing suspected criminals. Just 20 years ago police could put you in a interogation room without food or water for over 10 hours straight, yelling and beating you. Any confessions they got they could use against you in court. That was the "truth over justice" angle. But now the law is different. Evidence, which could be used to find the truth, gets dismissed all the time in court because it was obtained inappropriately - such as without a warrant. I guess we're just on different parts of the spectrum. Given that the cost of such a public inquiry is absolute: there is no going back. I don't see how any number of apologies will fix the damage caused should he be found innocent. So I do not think it is the way to go. Fair enough, it's pretty much a question of personal principle at this point. The main reason I advocate allowing the process to remain open (as opposed to say, a rape case in court) is that the damage caused to Spades by the witch hunt is damage to his reputation, in the eyes of the community. If that same community then apologizes, that implies that what damage done to Spades' reputation is undone, and he may very much be better off from it from gaining sympathetic supporters.
Great thought. I was hardly ever interested in Spades due to his lack of major feature or performance, but I would love to support him and be a fan in the future if he could somehow win back his innocence. The examination of his ladder play that this whole thread made me do to form my opinion made me realize he's actually a really solid player that I would enjoy watching... if I knew he didn't hack.
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Here is the funny thing.... if spades wins...
It's stupid.... I hate it and I'm going to lol when I see that thread pop up and then quickly get deleted cause its speculation
+ Show Spoiler +mod, if u want to delete this, go ahead, or report it
I have yet to see the pros talk about it but it's just stupid. This game is hard and people want to be good at it, nuff said.
EDIT:I read some more... funny. I still love it.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/815/tankcreep5.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/815/tankcreep5.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/5752/tankcreep6.jpg)
