|
07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
I gave up on this thread due to Spades retiring. No point in it anymore tbh. We need a hack detector.
|
Wow, can't believe this I was following this a bit yesterday when it had around 40 pages of posts, now it's at 216.
|
On June 06 2012 11:06 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 10:58 BalanceFx wrote:On June 06 2012 10:51 Ryder. wrote:On June 06 2012 10:30 warshop wrote:On June 06 2012 10:27 skeptic916 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:07 Monochromatic wrote:
Why doesn't someone download the maphacks and see how they work so we can just get this whole thing cleared up. I think it would be productive if we had someone who was familiar with these hacks to a degree that they could point out certain definitive things in the replay that proves without a doubt that some tomfoolery happened. I hear a lot of people talking about camera lock, positioning insights that are unlikely and certain other potentially damning clues, but I am reluctant condemn him as a cheater without having a bit more knowledge of the means by which he potentially hacked and how they operate. I myself am unwilling to even go to a website that hosts this sort of thing, let alone install them and use them even for research into the matter. But maybe someone like the Zergthrowaway guy on reddit or someone who knows a few people who use SC2 hacks intimately could weigh in on the subject with a little more depth, despite their now nefarious rep in the community. The one part of this that really does stink to me is the apparent multiplicity of instances. Although they are few and far between enough to seem, on one level, purely circumstantial, the fact that this issues has come up numerous times with a single personality in our community does bother me a great deal. That compounded by more replays slowly trickling into light that confirm the darkest suspicions about Spades make for an all in all ruinous set of circumstances for him, innocent or not. I hope someone can figure out more surefire ways of detecting cheating and hacking as discussed in this thread. Firstly to protect innocent players who could be wrongly accused, but most importantly to protect the integrity of our game, scene and tournaments. I'll quote myself. See the description of both Camera lock and Watch player camera. On June 06 2012 09:50 warshop wrote:An exhaustive list of features of a paid maphack : + Show Spoiler +Features:
Warden Protection
Version checker
Configurable hotkeys
3-state Maphack
-> Show units on mainmap & minimap
-> Show invisible/burrowed units
-> Show hallucinated units
-> Show Zerg creep
-> Hear sounds under fog of war
-> Enable selections under fog of war (client-sided)
-> View what your enemy is training/researching or the contents of selected
-> Graphical bugs fixed
Camera Lock
Show player selections
Show player clicks
Enable observer panel
-> Set to Production tab when game starts
-> Filter out local player
-> Filter out allied players
-> Filter out unwanted units and researches
-> Apply filtering for units and researches after X game seconds
-> Allow clicks through Production and Units tab information
Enable color/race icon
Watch player camera
Auto-start
-> Auto-mine minerals
-> Auto-create 1 worker
-> Auto-rally main building to local mineral patch
Auto-larva
-> Auto-group queens
Auto-mule
Auto-group buildings
Award achievements
Tac nuke strike alert
Nydus worm alert
Unit alert
Camera zoom out
Instant win against A.I. Also, here's a description of the interesting features : Camera lockLock your current camera position and save selected so you can freely look around the map so that your camera movement and selections are not recorded into replay. Use this when necassary to help avoid suspicious camera movement in your replays. If you happen to leave this feature on and try to command any units it will automatically turn off, this is a safety feature so that you don't leave it on by accident. Watch player cameraWatch the camera movement of any player in real time, it also works like camera lock so everything is client-sided and not saved into the replay. It says if camera lock is turned on and you try to move units it cancels the camera lock as a fail safe. Which means that whilst camera lock is on you shouldn't be able to issue commands to units. Not are what other commands you are unable to issue without deactivating camera lock, but shouldn't it mean his whilst the camera lock is supposedly on, his APM drops to zero? Somebody said earlier his APM only dropped to zero like once in 7 games. Also I find the '10-15 second' camera locks people keep saying happened whilst he was allegedly peeking into FOW a bit redundant. Given all the features of these hacks why would anyone (a pro especially) feel the need to look into FOW for 10 seconds at a time? Surely they could just look at the rest of the UI production tabs the hack provides. Wouldn't spending 10 seconds at a time looking into FOW and hence being unable to do anything else at this time be counter productive? This + the debunking magic scan that a caster did in a YouTube vid should at least cause people to question whether he really is guilty. That is one hack you heard about so all hacks work that way? Metalopolis map at 2:50 shows a camera lock while microing a SCV that couldn't get into a blocked base. My theory is autoscout hack while he was taking a sip of whatever beverage he enjoys but a lot of other people think he blocked the camera while checking stuff out and microed the SCV while accidentally looking at things he couldn't see thus we cant see what orders were given to that scv or why he turned around at that sign and headed back randomly seemingly as if he had his own AI. And SCGears again shows at neither time frame did he hit the hotkey to select 10298 until he panicked and said wait come back to my base. You can analyze everything to death but it really just takes one unexplained event to prove hacking and I think this short 10 min game shows that in spades. Um, no, it doesn't take one unexplained event to prove hacking. You could go through replays of any pro and I can almost guarantee you there will be at least one unexplained event. You don't 'prove' hacking through one unexplained event, at best you can determine with reasonable confidence that someone is hacking with many unexplained events. And I didn't say all hacks work that way, but this seems to be the main hack that everyone is referring to. Perhaps if you can go find the hack that works the way you say it does it will provide your statement more credibility. I really can't get over this 'one unexplained event to prove someone is hacking'. This guys career is on the line and you think all it takes is one unexplained event to ruin it? Absolutely disgusting attitude my friend. Edit: Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 11:02 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 10:58 hinnolinn wrote:On June 06 2012 10:47 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 10:44 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 10:11 artanis2 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:08 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 10:05 Tewks44 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:02 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 09:44 las91 wrote:
[quote]
Considering this is a series not mentioned in the scope of this particular (213 page O.o) thread I don't really understand the point of your post sir. This isn't a trial, character witnesses aren't exactly necessary... Character witnesses is all what the accusers have for evidence. Nothing conclusive has come out of all the replays so far. except for the multiple expert opinions that say he was hacking based on the replays. Which counters the multiple expert opinions which stated he didn't seem to have hacked.. Name them. Nerchio and Attero come to mind. Haha, I've played Attero. No WAY he says this guy isn't hacking. Show me a quote. Also, where was the discrepency between ladder games and the play in his show match disproven? Would love to see how that is rationally explained, since there is only one possible explanation. On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote:
I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best. I actually don't seem him disprove even a single piece of evidence against him in this quote, but thank you for it. The idea that if you didn't hack in one game, therefore you could never hack is simply idiotic. "Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do." Sad, I thought Attero wasn't so blindly bias. If he is serious, he'll come back here and explain why the way he uses the minimap vs fog of war changes so much from the games where he's not hacking (cherry picked ladder games) vs the ones he is (showmatch, other people bringing up older replays) They aren't cherry picked, they are the last 100 games he played on ladder. God, I don't know or really care if hes innocent but people need to spot making shit up in this thread.
Its not disgusting based on all the other evidence but really thats how math and computers in general work. So Spades.... 2:50 for like 8 seconds you watch you base and appearantly do nothing. Your APM is 0 as reported by the replay and shown in SC2 gears. During this time of no Actions you selected an SCV and gave him orders the replay neither shows or records. Why was your APM 0 and how did you using no actions select that SCV and get him to move to the sign and then stop at the sign and head back to scout.
You look at the replay and explain how he did it without hotkeys and without clicking. (After selected the SCV which was rallied to the south east base that SCV is given orders that are not in the replay.) Cool trick bro.
|
United States7481 Posts
On June 06 2012 10:46 BalanceFx wrote:Show nested quote +Game 4: Metalopolis
2:50 He selects his SCV and make it go back to his base, however, his camera is blocked on his barracks for about 5 seconds. Load it up in sc2 gears as well. He didn't press a hot key. No keys pressed, camera locked and he selects his scv and moves him and this is clear sign of a camera lock. He locked his camera on one spot and selected an scv and moved it. (I actually don't think he did that and it was the auto-scout hack as if you follow 10298 he goes to the sign and just says meh lets go scout again and Spades is like WAIT come mine mate... and pulls him back) And you could analyze the rest but I think he doesn't always hack. For whatever reason in this series he decided to try some hacks out. Not sure why. So he hacked... Demote him to bronze and ban him for a month. (End of story) I don't get the calls for physical violence. I know it sucks playing against hackers but I am not confident blizzard can stop this. I think they will respond to reports that have replays that clearly show hacking but other than that I have very little faith. Online tournaments and online prize pools are in severe jeopardy unless blizzard or some third party introduces a guaranteed antihack solution. (Could be as simple as random screenshots saved with every replay that can be viewed at the score screen.) Who knows. The current hacking frenzy is really depressing.
I thought this would be 100% proof so I loaded it up in sc2gears and I think you must have yours set to real-time, not game-time. If you have it set to game-time, it shows at 2:54 Spades Hotkey Select 1, which is the scouting SCV.
|
On June 06 2012 11:05 antilyon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 10:51 emythrel wrote:On June 06 2012 10:27 skeptic916 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:07 Monochromatic wrote:
Why doesn't someone download the maphacks and see how they work so we can just get this whole thing cleared up. I think it would be productive if we had someone who was familiar with these hacks to a degree that they could point out certain definitive things in the replay that proves without a doubt that some tomfoolery happened. I hear a lot of people talking about camera lock, positioning insights that are unlikely and certain other potentially damning clues, but I am reluctant condemn him as a cheater without having a bit more knowledge of the means by which he potentially hacked and how they operate. I myself am unwilling to even go to a website that hosts this sort of thing, let alone install them and use them even for research into the matter. But maybe someone like the Zergthrowaway guy on reddit or someone who knows a few people who use SC2 hacks intimately could weigh in on the subject with a little more depth, despite their now nefarious rep in the community. The one part of this that really does stink to me is the apparent multiplicity of instances. Although they are few and far between enough to seem, on one level, purely circumstantial, the fact that this issues has come up numerous times with a single personality in our community does bother me a great deal. That compounded by more replays slowly trickling into light that confirm the darkest suspicions about Spades make for an all in all ruinous set of circumstances for him, innocent or not. I hope someone can figure out more surefire ways of detecting cheating and hacking as discussed in this thread. Firstly to protect innocent players who could be wrongly accused, but most importantly to protect the integrity of our game, scene and tournaments. people have been trying to figure out a surefire way to detect hacks for years, punkbuster is in a constant arms race with the hackers and are always one step behind. For instance back in BF2, punkbuster would use submitted screenshots to help detect hacks, my clan set up a feed of punkbuster ss's and we would all look thru as many as we could each day and submit any that showed someone hacking. punkbuster would then do the research and suddenly that hack was busted, but the moment people started receiving bans, the hack makers would just update the hack to be undetectable again and we would start the process over again and again and again. There was a very well known hack in BF2 that was basically paid for but the hack makers didn't sell it to you like that, you paid for "premium" forum access which just happened to be the only place to get the hack download (which you had to log in with ur forum account info to use to play, yes we did our research) and Punkbuster openly had an account on the site which they used to foil the hackers.... to no avail. Every time they cracked the new code, it got updated. It's stupid. This is an issue that will simply never go away. As for spades, I have a few things that bug me about his alleged hacking: 1) Why would you hack during a show match set up by your own team in the first place? Spades is supposedly a "good" hacker. Anyone with a brain knows that using a hack when your own team is setting up the match is a bone headed thing to do. 2) why would he stream so many games without using hacks and then all of a sudden use them in a show match? again, seems like a completely bone headed thing to do. 3) A good hacker knows how to keep a low profile, I spent years admining FPS servers and the good hackers took weeks and weeks to catch because they wouldn't be stupid and go 100-0 KDR every single game and make impossible sniper shots every few seconds. A good hacker plays clever, Spades isn't some kid who just discovered hacking and decided to abuse it to its full potential... he is a proven hacker from BW and would surely know about the screen lock feature and not use it. He's a good enough player that simply having a minimap hack would give him all the info he would need. I am no expert in SC2 or hacking SC2 but I was at finding them in BF2, punkbuster can chalk up over 1000 hack detections to me scouring thru screenshots and noticing the tiny things that gave it away. It just doesn't make sense to me that Spades would go from playing clean on ladder and streaming it all to hacking a show match and losing to boot. Maybe he hacked, maybe he didn't but no one has yet to show me something that is anything near what I would call concrete proof. One of the things on that Antiga game that catz reviewed was his movement around the watch tower, at one point he moves down and then he sees a hellion moving back up and around the other way and sends his troops back up, when catz was reviewing said replay he didn't seem to note that fact. I noticed it and thought, well if i saw that hellion going back the other way, I'd assume the rest of the army was goin that way too. I honestly don't know either way for sure and in any court of law, that makes him innocent. He doesn't have to prove his innocence, his accusers have to prove his guilt. There are tons of tiny things that together becomes something very fishy, but what sets it on stone is his habits. No one change his playstyle overnight. Any player has their mechanic habits(I don't know if this is the right word for it), like MKP's way of boxing or Polt's relaxed and low-apm play. Those aspects are completely unrelated to what BO you are using or which strategy you are facing, it your digital signature on SC2. Don't you think really strange Spades changing it for Lucifron showmatch only?
It is strange indeed. I am in no position to judge him, those that are have done that and haven't been able to convince me. If he was hacking, as i edited in to my original post, he is a terrible hacker. Good hackers don't change their gameplay when hacking compared to when they aren't hacking. suddenly playing with completely different mechanics and style is basically screaming out to the world that you are hacking, if he was hacking, he certainly wasn't doing much to hide it. That fact alone makes me doubt that he was because he is an experienced hacker from bw who would know better.
|
I just wanted to let people know again about my analysis of the IPL5 Spades vs Theognis games as my post seems to have gotten lost in the fray last page...
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=215#4295
Please read it and tell me what you think. If there is a point you disagree with please examine it and I will try to fix it if it is wrong.
TLDR: In this game, never once did he know what build Theognis had chosen, yet chooses a 111 build that will do major damage. Never once scouted before seiging Theo's front. Then, a miracle tank resiege at 9:55 is SUPER shady, the resiege animation finishes just in time to shell the incoming army of Theo that he didn't have vision of. Game 2 analysis inbound.
|
The starcraft community feels like Salem sometimes.
|
For the guys who keep saying Spades played differently because people play differently in show matches than ladder - yes that is true but you don't change your overall habits and reactions that drastically. When people say Spades playing differently they aren't referring to his builds or strategies, its the way he moves his camera and observes information. Why rely on a mini-map for crucial information when a 1 second click on the mini-map will show you the full details of whats there? Why suddenly stop viewing anything in fog of war? It would take mental conscience NOT to move your camera over fog of war.
|
It's really concerning to me that he was so defeatist so early.
When you think of the claims made by him and Attero and others, you would expect a driven, focused, and confident mindset.
By accounts from former teammates and coaches he was having motivation issues, but afterwards supposedly turned them around and was dominating in his play and took over the ladder to #1 GM.
To do this would require so much focus and energy and drive, but instead we get a defeatist, negative, and sparsely commenting person.
Every post from the get go has been deflective "I'll have my reputation ruined anyway, so it doesn't matter" or "I can't say anything to change it..." etc.
It's basic psychology. You know what innocent people say when accused? IM FUCKING INNOCENT. They scream it from the rooftops. Their language and phrasing is confident and assertive.
When someone dances around the issue, and phrases things in wishy-washy terms like "well I guess I can't" or "there's no way to prove" etc., there's a reason for it.
A lot of the things in the game were fishy to me, but the fishiest thing of all is the way he responded. Total guilt. No confidence, no eagerness to continue, no nothing. Just lots of avoidance and deflection.
|
On June 06 2012 11:18 Fallians wrote:
The starcraft community feels like Salem sometimes.
Point out possible hackers is encouraged I feel, but I don't like it went people just try to screw other people over because some random guy suggested he might be hacking. I would like hacking posts a lot better if they had a kind of TL regulation were they were moderated much more strictly and only constructive posts should apply. Or even put the "Hacking" posts in their own subsection for discussion, analyisis, and shaming (of the accused or OP, TBD).
|
On June 06 2012 11:12 BalanceFx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 11:06 Ryder. wrote:On June 06 2012 10:58 BalanceFx wrote:On June 06 2012 10:51 Ryder. wrote:On June 06 2012 10:30 warshop wrote:On June 06 2012 10:27 skeptic916 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:07 Monochromatic wrote:
Why doesn't someone download the maphacks and see how they work so we can just get this whole thing cleared up. I think it would be productive if we had someone who was familiar with these hacks to a degree that they could point out certain definitive things in the replay that proves without a doubt that some tomfoolery happened. I hear a lot of people talking about camera lock, positioning insights that are unlikely and certain other potentially damning clues, but I am reluctant condemn him as a cheater without having a bit more knowledge of the means by which he potentially hacked and how they operate. I myself am unwilling to even go to a website that hosts this sort of thing, let alone install them and use them even for research into the matter. But maybe someone like the Zergthrowaway guy on reddit or someone who knows a few people who use SC2 hacks intimately could weigh in on the subject with a little more depth, despite their now nefarious rep in the community. The one part of this that really does stink to me is the apparent multiplicity of instances. Although they are few and far between enough to seem, on one level, purely circumstantial, the fact that this issues has come up numerous times with a single personality in our community does bother me a great deal. That compounded by more replays slowly trickling into light that confirm the darkest suspicions about Spades make for an all in all ruinous set of circumstances for him, innocent or not. I hope someone can figure out more surefire ways of detecting cheating and hacking as discussed in this thread. Firstly to protect innocent players who could be wrongly accused, but most importantly to protect the integrity of our game, scene and tournaments. I'll quote myself. See the description of both Camera lock and Watch player camera. On June 06 2012 09:50 warshop wrote:An exhaustive list of features of a paid maphack : + Show Spoiler +Features:
Warden Protection
Version checker
Configurable hotkeys
3-state Maphack
-> Show units on mainmap & minimap
-> Show invisible/burrowed units
-> Show hallucinated units
-> Show Zerg creep
-> Hear sounds under fog of war
-> Enable selections under fog of war (client-sided)
-> View what your enemy is training/researching or the contents of selected
-> Graphical bugs fixed
Camera Lock
Show player selections
Show player clicks
Enable observer panel
-> Set to Production tab when game starts
-> Filter out local player
-> Filter out allied players
-> Filter out unwanted units and researches
-> Apply filtering for units and researches after X game seconds
-> Allow clicks through Production and Units tab information
Enable color/race icon
Watch player camera
Auto-start
-> Auto-mine minerals
-> Auto-create 1 worker
-> Auto-rally main building to local mineral patch
Auto-larva
-> Auto-group queens
Auto-mule
Auto-group buildings
Award achievements
Tac nuke strike alert
Nydus worm alert
Unit alert
Camera zoom out
Instant win against A.I. Also, here's a description of the interesting features : Camera lockLock your current camera position and save selected so you can freely look around the map so that your camera movement and selections are not recorded into replay. Use this when necassary to help avoid suspicious camera movement in your replays. If you happen to leave this feature on and try to command any units it will automatically turn off, this is a safety feature so that you don't leave it on by accident. Watch player cameraWatch the camera movement of any player in real time, it also works like camera lock so everything is client-sided and not saved into the replay. It says if camera lock is turned on and you try to move units it cancels the camera lock as a fail safe. Which means that whilst camera lock is on you shouldn't be able to issue commands to units. Not are what other commands you are unable to issue without deactivating camera lock, but shouldn't it mean his whilst the camera lock is supposedly on, his APM drops to zero? Somebody said earlier his APM only dropped to zero like once in 7 games. Also I find the '10-15 second' camera locks people keep saying happened whilst he was allegedly peeking into FOW a bit redundant. Given all the features of these hacks why would anyone (a pro especially) feel the need to look into FOW for 10 seconds at a time? Surely they could just look at the rest of the UI production tabs the hack provides. Wouldn't spending 10 seconds at a time looking into FOW and hence being unable to do anything else at this time be counter productive? This + the debunking magic scan that a caster did in a YouTube vid should at least cause people to question whether he really is guilty. That is one hack you heard about so all hacks work that way? Metalopolis map at 2:50 shows a camera lock while microing a SCV that couldn't get into a blocked base. My theory is autoscout hack while he was taking a sip of whatever beverage he enjoys but a lot of other people think he blocked the camera while checking stuff out and microed the SCV while accidentally looking at things he couldn't see thus we cant see what orders were given to that scv or why he turned around at that sign and headed back randomly seemingly as if he had his own AI. And SCGears again shows at neither time frame did he hit the hotkey to select 10298 until he panicked and said wait come back to my base. You can analyze everything to death but it really just takes one unexplained event to prove hacking and I think this short 10 min game shows that in spades. Um, no, it doesn't take one unexplained event to prove hacking. You could go through replays of any pro and I can almost guarantee you there will be at least one unexplained event. You don't 'prove' hacking through one unexplained event, at best you can determine with reasonable confidence that someone is hacking with many unexplained events. And I didn't say all hacks work that way, but this seems to be the main hack that everyone is referring to. Perhaps if you can go find the hack that works the way you say it does it will provide your statement more credibility. I really can't get over this 'one unexplained event to prove someone is hacking'. This guys career is on the line and you think all it takes is one unexplained event to ruin it? Absolutely disgusting attitude my friend. Edit: On June 06 2012 11:02 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 10:58 hinnolinn wrote:On June 06 2012 10:47 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 10:44 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 10:11 artanis2 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:08 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 10:05 Tewks44 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:02 s4life wrote:
[quote]
Character witnesses is all what the accusers have for evidence. Nothing conclusive has come out of all the replays so far. except for the multiple expert opinions that say he was hacking based on the replays. Which counters the multiple expert opinions which stated he didn't seem to have hacked.. Name them. Nerchio and Attero come to mind. Haha, I've played Attero. No WAY he says this guy isn't hacking. Show me a quote. Also, where was the discrepency between ladder games and the play in his show match disproven? Would love to see how that is rationally explained, since there is only one possible explanation. On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote:
I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best. I actually don't seem him disprove even a single piece of evidence against him in this quote, but thank you for it. The idea that if you didn't hack in one game, therefore you could never hack is simply idiotic. "Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do." Sad, I thought Attero wasn't so blindly bias. If he is serious, he'll come back here and explain why the way he uses the minimap vs fog of war changes so much from the games where he's not hacking (cherry picked ladder games) vs the ones he is (showmatch, other people bringing up older replays) They aren't cherry picked, they are the last 100 games he played on ladder. God, I don't know or really care if hes innocent but people need to spot making shit up in this thread. Its not disgusting based on all the other evidence but really thats how math and computers in general work. So Spades.... 2:50 for like 8 seconds you watch you base and appearantly do nothing. Your APM is 0 as reported by the replay and shown in SC2 gears. During this time of no Actions you selected an SCV and gave him orders the replay neither shows or records. Why was your APM 0 and how did you using no actions select that SCV and get him to move to the sign and then stop at the sign and head back to scout. You look at the replay and explain how he did it without hotkeys and without clicking. (After selected the SCV which was rallied to the south east base that SCV is given orders that are not in the replay.) Cool trick bro.
I just went and watched what you were talking about. The 'camera lock' is frozen above his barracks, and given that he places a supply depot right where the camera was locked as soon as he hit 100 minerals it seems like he was simply waiting at that spot till he hit 100 minerals so he could build a depot. The scouting scv was hotkeyed to 1, and you can see after the shift que where the scv gets denied into base, he selects it and sends it home.
On June 06 2012 11:13 Antoine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 10:46 BalanceFx wrote:Game 4: Metalopolis
2:50 He selects his SCV and make it go back to his base, however, his camera is blocked on his barracks for about 5 seconds. Load it up in sc2 gears as well. He didn't press a hot key. No keys pressed, camera locked and he selects his scv and moves him and this is clear sign of a camera lock. He locked his camera on one spot and selected an scv and moved it. (I actually don't think he did that and it was the auto-scout hack as if you follow 10298 he goes to the sign and just says meh lets go scout again and Spades is like WAIT come mine mate... and pulls him back) And you could analyze the rest but I think he doesn't always hack. For whatever reason in this series he decided to try some hacks out. Not sure why. So he hacked... Demote him to bronze and ban him for a month. (End of story) I don't get the calls for physical violence. I know it sucks playing against hackers but I am not confident blizzard can stop this. I think they will respond to reports that have replays that clearly show hacking but other than that I have very little faith. Online tournaments and online prize pools are in severe jeopardy unless blizzard or some third party introduces a guaranteed antihack solution. (Could be as simple as random screenshots saved with every replay that can be viewed at the score screen.) Who knows. The current hacking frenzy is really depressing. I thought this would be 100% proof so I loaded it up in sc2gears and I think you must have yours set to real-time, not game-time. If you have it set to game-time, it shows at 2:54 Spades Hotkey Select 1, which is the scouting SCV.
Also this.
Are you suggesting he is using auto-scout hack? Why the hell would a pro player risk the increased chance at being caught by using yet an additional hack when really he could scout better himself? It isn't like he is lacking the APM to do so, makes no sense why a pro would bother using an auto scout hack.
|
On June 06 2012 11:20 natebreen wrote:
It's basic psychology. You know what innocent people say when accused? IM FUCKING INNOCENT. They scream it from the rooftops. Their language and phrasing is confident and assertive.
not always. i've known people who freeze up at any hint of accusation and they get really nervous of being seen as wrong no matter what, so they get the attitude of "fuck it, fuck them, fuck this" which can totally lead you to present a "i don't care" attitude.
i'll say that yes, innocent people will usually be assertive in their innocence, but then again, so do guilty people. whenever i'm lying, i get louder and try to be more confrontational (thats fucked up now that i'm reading it) but when i'm telling the truth a lot of times i don't give a shit because im telling the truth. basically, in my experience, the LOUDEST people are about 50-50 guilty innocent (i just made that up but it's as valid as anything else)
|
On June 06 2012 10:45 insanet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 10:34 Fyrewolf wrote:On June 06 2012 10:18 starcraft911 wrote:On June 06 2012 09:32 StreetWise wrote:
Reading through this thread I have several questions:
1. Who is the Judge in this matter. People keep saying he is innocent until proven guilty. Who is going to pronounce him innocent or guilty if not the community as a whole?
2. Secondly, its been mentioned that Spades hacked in BW. How was he caught/proven guilty back then and can the same methods be applied? It's called the court of public opinion and it's real. Just ask OJ Simpson about it. If the community deems him guilty his sponsors will probably not like that. Nobody wants to invest in an OJ Simpson spokesman. The method he got caught in bw by was because bw maphacks didnt have the failsafes sc2 ones have. Also when you've been maphacking for over a decade you learn what not to do. I.E. don't stare at proxy buildings out in the middle of nowhere, but with today's hacks you can do that and nobody knows because of the ol' screen lock. Actually it was because of a safety feature that he was caught in BW. The hack would delete selections of enemy units from the replays, to hide selections of units that the player should not have vision of if he were not hacking. However it is so highly unusual that enemy units were never selected ever(which good players did to check upgrades); it was discovered because of a lack of a normal activity, rather than an abundance of suspicious activity. + Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=69911Explanation of method When you select units (men/buildings) it is recorded in the replay. However, some map hacks remove the recording of selections on units which are not your own. This happens in any game type (UMS, Melee, etc.) and regardless of the number of players. The reason for this is because previously hackers have been caught by analyzing the replay and finding cases of them clicking on things which they could not see without a map hack. Because selecting an enemy unit is the only way to see things like upgrades, health, build progress, or distinguish buildings that are identical while they build, decent players do this quite often. In a game over 15 minutes, over 99% of the time a good player will have at least one selection of an enemy unit. All of the players in this list have several games played in a row (which are over 15 minutes) and without ever clicking an enemy unit once. While for only one game, there might be a 1% chance of this happening to even a legitimate player, the chance of this happening 5 times in a row is roughly 1 out of 10 billion. People should really read how he got caught in BW, he didnt click any enemy units for 14 entire games, he didnt get caught because MBS or automining or multiple selection, he did got caught because abnormal activity, he was guilty with way less data that what we have. Right now there is a shit ton of abnormal activity, and people still dont believe he hacks lol. i guess you still believe he was innocent in BW.
Eh, in BW even his own team investigated into it and reviewed over 150 replays just to be sure over the course of a week. The detection method was probably? more accurate, too. And the entire process wasn't one anonymous tl member posting on a smurf, it was the joint work of many. And it wasn't released prematurely.
|
On June 06 2012 11:25 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 11:20 natebreen wrote:
It's basic psychology. You know what innocent people say when accused? IM FUCKING INNOCENT. They scream it from the rooftops. Their language and phrasing is confident and assertive. not always. i've known people who freeze up at any hint of accusation and they get really nervous of being seen as wrong no matter what, so they get the attitude of "fuck it, fuck them, fuck this" which can totally lead you to present a "i don't care" attitude. i'll say that yes, innocent people will usually be assertive in their innocence, but then again, so do guilty people. whenever i'm lying, i get louder and try to be more confrontational (thats fucked up now that i'm reading it) but when i'm telling the truth a lot of times i don't give a shit because im telling the truth. basically, in my experience, the LOUDEST people are about 50-50 guilty innocent (i just made that up but it's as valid as anything else)
There are stages of response though.
Even the meekest of people will offer some kind of defense.
Spades did not pass go, he didn't collect $200. He just instantly went to his deflections and avoidance of addressing the issue at hand.
|
Spades has said he isn't hacking and these allegations will damage his rep so that nobody will watch him or want to pay for lessons, etc, cutting into his income.
There are two problems with this. One is the obvious one, that if he is hacking he's screwed himself.
The other is that if he *isn't* hacking, it's obvious now by the replays that his play is definitely not something that should be taught to anyone. It's just straight up risky non-standard play and lacks all the fundamentals you would teach even a Bronze leaguer.
In essence, even if Spades is telling the truth, he's screwing himself by his horribly erratic, risky and downright dumb play style. He loses either way.
|
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=215#4295
Guys I put a lot of work into this analysis, please take a look at it. The questionable move by Spades at 9:55 is HUGE. The camera does some really strange things too. It is a pretty hefty evidence to be added to the pile of evidences in favor of his guilt, and is very clarifying and reasonable about the issue. Please take the time to review it real quick and tell me your opinion. At least let me know it has been read so I didn't waste my time.
|
On June 06 2012 11:08 iCastor wrote:
I gave up on this thread due to Spades retiring. No point in it anymore tbh. We need a hack detector.
He didn't retire, he just left his team.
|
On June 06 2012 11:28 StarStrider wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=215#4295Guys I put a lot of work into this analysis, please take a look at it. The questionable move by Spades at 9:55 is HUGE. The camera does some really strange things too. It is a pretty hefty evidence to be added to the pile of evidences in favor of his guilt, and is very clarifying and reasonable about the issue. Please take the time to review it real quick and tell me your opinion. At least let me know it has been read so I didn't waste my time.
Thanks for continuing to make these. You're reiterating a lot of things that were shown in the Catz group analysis, but hopefully people will realize that multiple independent viewers of the replays find all of these things to be suspicious.
|
On June 06 2012 11:22 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 11:12 BalanceFx wrote:On June 06 2012 11:06 Ryder. wrote:On June 06 2012 10:58 BalanceFx wrote:On June 06 2012 10:51 Ryder. wrote:On June 06 2012 10:30 warshop wrote:On June 06 2012 10:27 skeptic916 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:07 Monochromatic wrote:
Why doesn't someone download the maphacks and see how they work so we can just get this whole thing cleared up. I think it would be productive if we had someone who was familiar with these hacks to a degree that they could point out certain definitive things in the replay that proves without a doubt that some tomfoolery happened. I hear a lot of people talking about camera lock, positioning insights that are unlikely and certain other potentially damning clues, but I am reluctant condemn him as a cheater without having a bit more knowledge of the means by which he potentially hacked and how they operate. I myself am unwilling to even go to a website that hosts this sort of thing, let alone install them and use them even for research into the matter. But maybe someone like the Zergthrowaway guy on reddit or someone who knows a few people who use SC2 hacks intimately could weigh in on the subject with a little more depth, despite their now nefarious rep in the community. The one part of this that really does stink to me is the apparent multiplicity of instances. Although they are few and far between enough to seem, on one level, purely circumstantial, the fact that this issues has come up numerous times with a single personality in our community does bother me a great deal. That compounded by more replays slowly trickling into light that confirm the darkest suspicions about Spades make for an all in all ruinous set of circumstances for him, innocent or not. I hope someone can figure out more surefire ways of detecting cheating and hacking as discussed in this thread. Firstly to protect innocent players who could be wrongly accused, but most importantly to protect the integrity of our game, scene and tournaments. I'll quote myself. See the description of both Camera lock and Watch player camera. On June 06 2012 09:50 warshop wrote:An exhaustive list of features of a paid maphack : + Show Spoiler +Features:
Warden Protection
Version checker
Configurable hotkeys
3-state Maphack
-> Show units on mainmap & minimap
-> Show invisible/burrowed units
-> Show hallucinated units
-> Show Zerg creep
-> Hear sounds under fog of war
-> Enable selections under fog of war (client-sided)
-> View what your enemy is training/researching or the contents of selected
-> Graphical bugs fixed
Camera Lock
Show player selections
Show player clicks
Enable observer panel
-> Set to Production tab when game starts
-> Filter out local player
-> Filter out allied players
-> Filter out unwanted units and researches
-> Apply filtering for units and researches after X game seconds
-> Allow clicks through Production and Units tab information
Enable color/race icon
Watch player camera
Auto-start
-> Auto-mine minerals
-> Auto-create 1 worker
-> Auto-rally main building to local mineral patch
Auto-larva
-> Auto-group queens
Auto-mule
Auto-group buildings
Award achievements
Tac nuke strike alert
Nydus worm alert
Unit alert
Camera zoom out
Instant win against A.I. Also, here's a description of the interesting features : Camera lockLock your current camera position and save selected so you can freely look around the map so that your camera movement and selections are not recorded into replay. Use this when necassary to help avoid suspicious camera movement in your replays. If you happen to leave this feature on and try to command any units it will automatically turn off, this is a safety feature so that you don't leave it on by accident. Watch player cameraWatch the camera movement of any player in real time, it also works like camera lock so everything is client-sided and not saved into the replay. It says if camera lock is turned on and you try to move units it cancels the camera lock as a fail safe. Which means that whilst camera lock is on you shouldn't be able to issue commands to units. Not are what other commands you are unable to issue without deactivating camera lock, but shouldn't it mean his whilst the camera lock is supposedly on, his APM drops to zero? Somebody said earlier his APM only dropped to zero like once in 7 games. Also I find the '10-15 second' camera locks people keep saying happened whilst he was allegedly peeking into FOW a bit redundant. Given all the features of these hacks why would anyone (a pro especially) feel the need to look into FOW for 10 seconds at a time? Surely they could just look at the rest of the UI production tabs the hack provides. Wouldn't spending 10 seconds at a time looking into FOW and hence being unable to do anything else at this time be counter productive? This + the debunking magic scan that a caster did in a YouTube vid should at least cause people to question whether he really is guilty. That is one hack you heard about so all hacks work that way? Metalopolis map at 2:50 shows a camera lock while microing a SCV that couldn't get into a blocked base. My theory is autoscout hack while he was taking a sip of whatever beverage he enjoys but a lot of other people think he blocked the camera while checking stuff out and microed the SCV while accidentally looking at things he couldn't see thus we cant see what orders were given to that scv or why he turned around at that sign and headed back randomly seemingly as if he had his own AI. And SCGears again shows at neither time frame did he hit the hotkey to select 10298 until he panicked and said wait come back to my base. You can analyze everything to death but it really just takes one unexplained event to prove hacking and I think this short 10 min game shows that in spades. Um, no, it doesn't take one unexplained event to prove hacking. You could go through replays of any pro and I can almost guarantee you there will be at least one unexplained event. You don't 'prove' hacking through one unexplained event, at best you can determine with reasonable confidence that someone is hacking with many unexplained events. And I didn't say all hacks work that way, but this seems to be the main hack that everyone is referring to. Perhaps if you can go find the hack that works the way you say it does it will provide your statement more credibility. I really can't get over this 'one unexplained event to prove someone is hacking'. This guys career is on the line and you think all it takes is one unexplained event to ruin it? Absolutely disgusting attitude my friend. Edit: On June 06 2012 11:02 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 10:58 hinnolinn wrote:On June 06 2012 10:47 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 10:44 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 10:11 artanis2 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:08 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 10:05 Tewks44 wrote:
[quote]
except for the multiple expert opinions that say he was hacking based on the replays. Which counters the multiple expert opinions which stated he didn't seem to have hacked.. Name them. Nerchio and Attero come to mind. Haha, I've played Attero. No WAY he says this guy isn't hacking. Show me a quote. Also, where was the discrepency between ladder games and the play in his show match disproven? Would love to see how that is rationally explained, since there is only one possible explanation. On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote:
I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best. I actually don't seem him disprove even a single piece of evidence against him in this quote, but thank you for it. The idea that if you didn't hack in one game, therefore you could never hack is simply idiotic. "Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do." Sad, I thought Attero wasn't so blindly bias. If he is serious, he'll come back here and explain why the way he uses the minimap vs fog of war changes so much from the games where he's not hacking (cherry picked ladder games) vs the ones he is (showmatch, other people bringing up older replays) They aren't cherry picked, they are the last 100 games he played on ladder. God, I don't know or really care if hes innocent but people need to spot making shit up in this thread. Its not disgusting based on all the other evidence but really thats how math and computers in general work. So Spades.... 2:50 for like 8 seconds you watch you base and appearantly do nothing. Your APM is 0 as reported by the replay and shown in SC2 gears. During this time of no Actions you selected an SCV and gave him orders the replay neither shows or records. Why was your APM 0 and how did you using no actions select that SCV and get him to move to the sign and then stop at the sign and head back to scout. You look at the replay and explain how he did it without hotkeys and without clicking. (After selected the SCV which was rallied to the south east base that SCV is given orders that are not in the replay.) Cool trick bro. I just went and watched what you were talking about. The 'camera lock' is frozen above his barracks, and given that he places a supply depot right where the camera was locked as soon as he hit 100 minerals it seems like he was simply waiting at that spot till he hit 100 minerals so he could build a depot. The scouting scv was hotkeyed to 1, and you can see after the shift que where the scv gets denied into base, he selects it and sends it home. Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 11:13 Antoine wrote:On June 06 2012 10:46 BalanceFx wrote:Game 4: Metalopolis
2:50 He selects his SCV and make it go back to his base, however, his camera is blocked on his barracks for about 5 seconds. Load it up in sc2 gears as well. He didn't press a hot key. No keys pressed, camera locked and he selects his scv and moves him and this is clear sign of a camera lock. He locked his camera on one spot and selected an scv and moved it. (I actually don't think he did that and it was the auto-scout hack as if you follow 10298 he goes to the sign and just says meh lets go scout again and Spades is like WAIT come mine mate... and pulls him back) And you could analyze the rest but I think he doesn't always hack. For whatever reason in this series he decided to try some hacks out. Not sure why. So he hacked... Demote him to bronze and ban him for a month. (End of story) I don't get the calls for physical violence. I know it sucks playing against hackers but I am not confident blizzard can stop this. I think they will respond to reports that have replays that clearly show hacking but other than that I have very little faith. Online tournaments and online prize pools are in severe jeopardy unless blizzard or some third party introduces a guaranteed antihack solution. (Could be as simple as random screenshots saved with every replay that can be viewed at the score screen.) Who knows. The current hacking frenzy is really depressing. I thought this would be 100% proof so I loaded it up in sc2gears and I think you must have yours set to real-time, not game-time. If you have it set to game-time, it shows at 2:54 Spades Hotkey Select 1, which is the scouting SCV. Also this. Are you suggesting he is using auto-scout hack? Why the hell would a pro player risk the increased chance at being caught by using yet an additional hack when really he could scout better himself? It isn't like he is lacking the APM to do so, makes no sense why a pro would bother using an auto scout hack.
Actually it makes no sense to me why any pro would ever hack at all. But its there and its just so easy... click it and behold. And who cares? Its a show match. No money on the line... lets see what happens... I can see the rationalization.
And I know its probably not autoscout.... Its a silly hack but maybe he was testing it out? I don't have explanation for motivations. I can just state what it looks like to me. (And I am not a pro player or blizzard and my opinion doesnt really matter and I invite you to do your own analysis)
I watched that game a few time and it looked like obvious Production queue is up and one instance of camera block that was just blatent. (The forums for this hack in question have two threads laughing at how stupid he was for blocking for that long)
Like I said... demote him to Bronze and ban him for a month. I don't know why he has to lose his career over this? You can't bring hacks with you to tournaments so it makes no sense to me. If he had recently won 1,000s of dollars in online tournaments than maybe its an issue but it was a show match... Its not really a big deal.
My real concern is the future of online tournaments with cash pools. (Not really viable if hackers are always winning)
|
On June 06 2012 11:26 natebreen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 11:25 sc2superfan101 wrote:On June 06 2012 11:20 natebreen wrote:
It's basic psychology. You know what innocent people say when accused? IM FUCKING INNOCENT. They scream it from the rooftops. Their language and phrasing is confident and assertive. not always. i've known people who freeze up at any hint of accusation and they get really nervous of being seen as wrong no matter what, so they get the attitude of "fuck it, fuck them, fuck this" which can totally lead you to present a "i don't care" attitude. i'll say that yes, innocent people will usually be assertive in their innocence, but then again, so do guilty people. whenever i'm lying, i get louder and try to be more confrontational (thats fucked up now that i'm reading it) but when i'm telling the truth a lot of times i don't give a shit because im telling the truth. basically, in my experience, the LOUDEST people are about 50-50 guilty innocent (i just made that up but it's as valid as anything else) There are stages of response though. Even the meekest of people will offer some kind of defense. Spades did not pass go, he didn't collect $200. He just instantly went to his deflections and avoidance of addressing the issue at hand.
thats my only problem though is that you're 100% right:
even the meekest people will offer some kind of defense. EVERYONE will offer some kind of defense. oftentimes the loudest person is the liar, often times he's the guy telling the truth. im just uncomfortable with saying that any response besides a confession is a for sure sign of guilt, especially considering how i'm usually guilty as sin when i give an earnest, kind of pissed, defensive but not too defensive response. i'm usually innocent when im like "fuck it, i don't care if you believe me or not".
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
