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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 06 2012 07:27 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:23 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:23 itsjuspeter wrote:On June 06 2012 07:17 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:16 hnQ wrote:
Guys,
there are PROS here supporting that he was hacking
there are OTHER PROS supporting he most likely wasn't
even in high level players there is doubt and inconclusive opinions so why are you all saying HE WAS HACKING like it was a fact? it's not, he's innocent until proven guilty Yes. Innocent until proven guilty. Not a hard concept. I'd prefer this to be the last response to someone with a low post count/recent join date. Again, your standards for evidence is alarmingly high. In the real world there will most likely never be 100% proof unless the suspect openly admits he did what he was accused of. It is indeed true we cannot say for 100% that he maphacked but the OVERWHELMING amount of evidence tips n the favor of him doing it. His "playing the victim" responses instead of going "hey look I didn't hack and here is why" really doesn't help his case. We will never hit 100% proof but we can get close to unreasonable doubt that he did which is what many believe is where the evidence is at and thus we believe Spades does hack. Your continued posting and low understanding of mechanics as well as incredibly ridiculous standards for evidence needs to end. Hiding behind the wall of 100% proof isn't good enough anymore. And I don't really care what you prefer. Go rally your mod friends and get me banned if you want me to go away. Else I'm staying put. Your posts are turning to shit now.
Because I'm responding to you.
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On June 06 2012 07:33 kalteras wrote:
I'm upset over what bloody thirsty dick heads the CatZ committee turned out to be. They had their mind's made up before they watched the replays. They've lost all credibility to me.
They watched the replays before they watched them on their live stream. So if it seems like they already had their minds made up, yes, it's because they already reviewed the evidence and decided, not because they went into it assuming he was hacking.
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The evidence is pretty damning. I think the Shakuras lucifron game is the best evidence imo.
1 - The blind scan when he didn't even know which position lucifron spawned? No one does that. Not koreans, not any pro, not any masters league, not even bronze players do that. That's not a matter of skill, that is purely irrational -- unless he somehow already knew which position lucifron spawned.
2 - And then after he is forced to lift his third, he loses some of his main army, and he has no mid map control at all -- he blindly sends 2 tanks without marine support into a mid xel naga tower. It wasn't as if he misclicked -- his attention was solely on those 2 tanks for several seconds, micro'ing them into position. I don't think even silver league players do that (no offense to anybody). And then when lucifron's marines come running in to kill the 2 tanks, then he moves his marines to support the tanks, which are just a split second too late and he loses the xel naga tower for the brief second he had it. And then for some reason he holds his tanks + marines well within tank firing range of the xel naga tower, with no vision of it. That's the dumbest thing anyone could ever do ... if lucifron ever moves up tanks in the xel naga tower, his army is dead -- unless he knew exactly when that would happen.
Again, this isn't a matter of "I played bad" ... these are things even silver league ppl don't do (again no offense to anybody there...)
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On June 06 2012 07:34 Positronic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:30 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:24 Positronic wrote:On June 06 2012 07:22 chebhe wrote:
Catz thinks he knows everything. More than he actually does. It's not a surprise he thinks he's pinned the tail on the donkey this time, either. So I suppose your logic also extends to Illusion, Painuser, Idra, Drewbie, TT1, and others who have said his behavior is extremely suspicious, if not downright conclusive of maphacking. If they say they conclusively know, then yes. They act like they know more than they actually do. If they say it's suspicious, then I might agree with them. But I think that suspicious behavior can be found in replays if you look for it. Especially if the player has a tendency to second guess things / make good assumptions / take risks. And suspicion is not enough for me to base a conclusion on. That's because I am responsible with my how I influence others. All of them have said many of Spades' action were very suspicious, in addition to Avilo and Incontrol. I could go through this thread and find the posts by all of them to find the posts specifically but you could easily do that using search. The pros who have defended Spades until this point have been cArn, Attero, and Nerchio from what I remember. I do agree with your point that suspicious behavior can be found in many replays if you look for it, but some of the actions that Spades took in his games vs Lucifron were downright EXTREMELY suspicious, the shadow boxing of armies at watch towers, etc.
And cArn is friends with him and lived with him and had a complete shit attitude about it.
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On June 06 2012 07:27 hnQ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:25 IcedBacon wrote:On June 06 2012 07:24 Greenei wrote:On June 06 2012 07:16 hnQ wrote:
Guys,
there are PROS here supporting that he was hacking
there are OTHER PROS supporting he most likely wasn't
even in high level players there is doubt and inconclusive opinions so why are you all saying HE WAS HACKING like it was a fact? it's not, he's innocent until proven guilty
ALSO even on CATZ STREAM he looked into FOW (which they said he turned the hacks off while at it lol?) so why do you keep saying he NEVER did it?
such a weird accusation which proplayer, that has already reviewed the material is STILL saying he's not hacking? i have only seen posts, that say he's hacking for along time. AFAIK only Nerchio says he's not hacking. Edit: Right, Attero. But pretty sure he just went and chimed in without actually looking at any replays. attero said he look into the replays for 2 hours and saw CatZ's VoDs
You have to remember that Attero is a former teammate and friend? of Spades, which could be for something.
Not that I have a particular opinion myself on the matter.
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On June 06 2012 07:35 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:33 kalteras wrote:
I'm upset over what bloody thirsty dick heads the CatZ committee turned out to be. They had their mind's made up before they watched the replays. They've lost all credibility to me. They watched the replays before they watched them on their live stream. So if it seems like they already had their minds made up, yes, it's because they already reviewed the evidence and decided, not because they went into it assuming he was hacking.
they also said that they like spades on a personal level and have spoken to him in RL and like him so the accusation that they were out to get him is total bullshit also
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On June 06 2012 07:34 chebhe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:27 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:23 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:23 itsjuspeter wrote:On June 06 2012 07:17 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:16 hnQ wrote:
Guys,
there are PROS here supporting that he was hacking
there are OTHER PROS supporting he most likely wasn't
even in high level players there is doubt and inconclusive opinions so why are you all saying HE WAS HACKING like it was a fact? it's not, he's innocent until proven guilty Yes. Innocent until proven guilty. Not a hard concept. I'd prefer this to be the last response to someone with a low post count/recent join date. Again, your standards for evidence is alarmingly high. In the real world there will most likely never be 100% proof unless the suspect openly admits he did what he was accused of. It is indeed true we cannot say for 100% that he maphacked but the OVERWHELMING amount of evidence tips n the favor of him doing it. His "playing the victim" responses instead of going "hey look I didn't hack and here is why" really doesn't help his case. We will never hit 100% proof but we can get close to unreasonable doubt that he did which is what many believe is where the evidence is at and thus we believe Spades does hack. Your continued posting and low understanding of mechanics as well as incredibly ridiculous standards for evidence needs to end. Hiding behind the wall of 100% proof isn't good enough anymore. And I don't really care what you prefer. Go rally your mod friends and get me banned if you want me to go away. Else I'm staying put. Your posts are turning to shit now. Because I'm responding to you.
You're focusing on pure garbage now and not the issue. The evidence and what story it tells.
See my previous post to you. If you want to discuss the evidence, I'd be happy to. But I think it has already been discussed enough, and most agree that it is condemning when you consider it as a whole.
Did you watch the set that Illusion posted in the IPL5 quals vs Theognis?
You will see the same foul play there.
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think some of us need to calm down a bit and not take things so personally...
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On June 06 2012 07:30 chebhe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:24 Positronic wrote:On June 06 2012 07:22 chebhe wrote:
Catz thinks he knows everything. More than he actually does. It's not a surprise he thinks he's pinned the tail on the donkey this time, either. So I suppose your logic also extends to Illusion, Painuser, Idra, Drewbie, TT1, and others who have said his behavior is extremely suspicious, if not downright conclusive of maphacking. If they say they conclusively know, then yes. They act like they know more than they actually do. If they say it's suspicious, then I might agree with them. But I think that suspicious behavior can be found in replays if you look for it. Especially if the player has a tendency to second guess things / make good assumptions / take risks. And suspicion is not enough for me to base a conclusion on. That's because I am responsible with my how I influence others.
Right, so as a community we should never bring hackers to the light of day because we can never, EVER prove, with 100% certainty, that they hack. Best leave it to Blizzard and never talk about hackers ever again...
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On June 06 2012 07:37 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:34 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:27 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:23 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:23 itsjuspeter wrote:On June 06 2012 07:17 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:16 hnQ wrote:
Guys,
there are PROS here supporting that he was hacking
there are OTHER PROS supporting he most likely wasn't
even in high level players there is doubt and inconclusive opinions so why are you all saying HE WAS HACKING like it was a fact? it's not, he's innocent until proven guilty Yes. Innocent until proven guilty. Not a hard concept. I'd prefer this to be the last response to someone with a low post count/recent join date. Again, your standards for evidence is alarmingly high. In the real world there will most likely never be 100% proof unless the suspect openly admits he did what he was accused of. It is indeed true we cannot say for 100% that he maphacked but the OVERWHELMING amount of evidence tips n the favor of him doing it. His "playing the victim" responses instead of going "hey look I didn't hack and here is why" really doesn't help his case. We will never hit 100% proof but we can get close to unreasonable doubt that he did which is what many believe is where the evidence is at and thus we believe Spades does hack. Your continued posting and low understanding of mechanics as well as incredibly ridiculous standards for evidence needs to end. Hiding behind the wall of 100% proof isn't good enough anymore. And I don't really care what you prefer. Go rally your mod friends and get me banned if you want me to go away. Else I'm staying put. Your posts are turning to shit now. Because I'm responding to you. You're focusing on pure garbage now and not the issue. The evidence and what story it tells. See my previous post to you. If you want to discuss the evidence, I'd be happy to. But I think it has already been discussed enough, and most agree that it is condemning when you consider it as a whole. Did you watch the set that Illusion posted in the IPL5 quals vs Theognis? You will see the same foul play there.
100 percent proof has nothing to do with it, no one is imposing a 100 percent standard of proof. You made that up to imply absurdity in my position, yet I never subscribed to it.
So if you see shit, or garbage, it's just your reflection in the mirror.
I don't think we even have any good evidence for it. And alot of people agree with me. You don't like it? I don't care. Go away.
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On June 06 2012 07:39 chebhe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:37 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:34 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:27 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:23 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:23 itsjuspeter wrote:On June 06 2012 07:17 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:16 hnQ wrote:
Guys,
there are PROS here supporting that he was hacking
there are OTHER PROS supporting he most likely wasn't
even in high level players there is doubt and inconclusive opinions so why are you all saying HE WAS HACKING like it was a fact? it's not, he's innocent until proven guilty Yes. Innocent until proven guilty. Not a hard concept. I'd prefer this to be the last response to someone with a low post count/recent join date. Again, your standards for evidence is alarmingly high. In the real world there will most likely never be 100% proof unless the suspect openly admits he did what he was accused of. It is indeed true we cannot say for 100% that he maphacked but the OVERWHELMING amount of evidence tips n the favor of him doing it. His "playing the victim" responses instead of going "hey look I didn't hack and here is why" really doesn't help his case. We will never hit 100% proof but we can get close to unreasonable doubt that he did which is what many believe is where the evidence is at and thus we believe Spades does hack. Your continued posting and low understanding of mechanics as well as incredibly ridiculous standards for evidence needs to end. Hiding behind the wall of 100% proof isn't good enough anymore. And I don't really care what you prefer. Go rally your mod friends and get me banned if you want me to go away. Else I'm staying put. Your posts are turning to shit now. Because I'm responding to you. You're focusing on pure garbage now and not the issue. The evidence and what story it tells. See my previous post to you. If you want to discuss the evidence, I'd be happy to. But I think it has already been discussed enough, and most agree that it is condemning when you consider it as a whole. Did you watch the set that Illusion posted in the IPL5 quals vs Theognis? You will see the same foul play there. 100 percent proof has nothing to do with it, no one is imposing a 100 percent standard of proof. You made that up to imply absurdity in my position, yet I never subscribed to it. So if you see shit, or garbage, it's just your reflection in the mirror. I don't think we even have any good evidence for it. And alot of people agree with me. You don't like it? I don't care. Go away.
You do realize I'm not itsjustpeter right? You just copypasted your response to what he wrote onto your response to me. Your lack of effort is astounding. How much of the evidence did you actually review besides CatZ stream before you came to your decision on this issue?
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On June 06 2012 07:20 jacksonlee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:16 nath wrote:On June 06 2012 07:08 Trumpet wrote:Really should have done this the BW way. in BW, the maphack disabled you from clicking opponent's units/buildings so that your click wouldnt get registered and show up as an obvious maphack on replay analyzer. So the conclusive proof then became getting large amounts of replays of someone and having them never click an enemy unit in a large amount of games. The same could be used here, if he never looked at fog of war in his games, not even once for a scan or scout or something, then it'd be pretty obvious. Has anyone done this? I'm not about to read through 200+ pages to check  well he didnt look in fog of war once in the bo7. that was one of the points that was not in his favor. http://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/b/320407912go to 1:13:50 that's just one example
I'm pretty sure the part explaining from 0:31:30 debunks your example and knocks you back down to zero.
Specifically 0:31:44.
Assuming what they are saying is true.
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On June 06 2012 07:33 chebhe wrote:
Trying to derail an inane bullshit thread, with inane bullshit... Doesn't that cancel out, or something?...
Nevermind, don't bother to respond.
Why won't you respond to the whole "changing your mechanics completely" argument?
Forget all the in-game stuff, the strategic choices, the tactical movements. It is possible (though not likely) for you to get lucky 1000 times in a single game and make all that stuff look fishy as hell.
However, I really don't think it's possible for any player, much less a pro, to completely change the mechanical way that they play. Issuing commands using minimap is obviously a viable technique, but it requires a lot of practice and skill for it to be effective. Considering that he never does this once in his ladder replays, then suddenly does it to optimal precision in a bo7, it's very very suspect.
Heck, even the fact that he looks at the fog of war to issue commands probably 10+ times in the first 5 minutes of any of his ladder replays, then doesn't do it a single time in the Bo7 is a huge red flag.
You're absolutely correct that you play the game strategically and tactically on a different level in a tournament. I don't think you would play the game mechanically different, unless you had something else that promotes that difference - such as the supposed hack that was supposed to take place.
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On June 06 2012 07:30 chebhe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:24 Positronic wrote:On June 06 2012 07:22 chebhe wrote:
Catz thinks he knows everything. More than he actually does. It's not a surprise he thinks he's pinned the tail on the donkey this time, either. So I suppose your logic also extends to Illusion, Painuser, Idra, Drewbie, TT1, and others who have said his behavior is extremely suspicious, if not downright conclusive of maphacking. If they say they conclusively know, then yes. They act like they know more than they actually do. If they say it's suspicious, then I might agree with them. But I think that suspicious behavior can be found in replays if you look for it. Especially if the player has a tendency to second guess things / make good assumptions / take risks. And suspicion is not enough for me to base a conclusion on. That's because I am responsible with my how I influence others.
I'll try my luck at explaining this to you:
Yes, it is suspicious. Yes, each piece of evidence is suspicious, and could be just a result of second guessing. But nobody, no matter how lucky, second guesses himself and get it correctly multiple times per game over the course of 7 games. And not once did he second guess himself incorrectly. He always happened to be indecisive and be right, or take a massive (and stupid) risk, but it just happened to always work. No diamond league or above terran player randomly sends all of his tanks to a watch tower without vision or army support, you lose those tanks 9/10 times, but that one time he did there happened to be nothing holding the watch tower. Nobody wastes a scan when he doesn't know which base his opponent actually spawned in. Spades happened to get it right, but that has to cause some questions.
The point is, any one of those things people point out could have happened in a random game. The problem is they don't all happen at the same time, every game over the course of an entire series. Sure you get lucky and get the exact counter opener once every few games, you can guess the attack path and timing perfectly every once in a while, but you don't do that every single game, every single time. No one can give you that one piece of evidence that is conclusive that he hacked, but they can give you 100 different examples of way too fishy stuff and say "this was all in the same BO7 series." And that is the evidence, that is what everyone who thinks he hacks is pointing to.
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On June 06 2012 07:42 TheBanana wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:20 jacksonlee wrote:On June 06 2012 07:16 nath wrote:On June 06 2012 07:08 Trumpet wrote:Really should have done this the BW way. in BW, the maphack disabled you from clicking opponent's units/buildings so that your click wouldnt get registered and show up as an obvious maphack on replay analyzer. So the conclusive proof then became getting large amounts of replays of someone and having them never click an enemy unit in a large amount of games. The same could be used here, if he never looked at fog of war in his games, not even once for a scan or scout or something, then it'd be pretty obvious. Has anyone done this? I'm not about to read through 200+ pages to check well he didnt look in fog of war once in the bo7. that was one of the points that was not in his favor. http://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/b/320407912go to 1:13:50 that's just one example I'm pretty sure the part explaining from 0:31:30 debunks your example and knocks you back down to zero. Specifically 0:31:44.
Like I said, that's one example. In the same game, around 1:16:30 to 1:16:50, he checks fog of war on the right side of minimap without a single command, and when he builds comman center at his third at 1:16:40 he never right clicks
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On June 06 2012 07:39 chebhe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:37 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:34 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:27 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:23 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:23 itsjuspeter wrote:On June 06 2012 07:17 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:16 hnQ wrote:
Guys,
there are PROS here supporting that he was hacking
there are OTHER PROS supporting he most likely wasn't
even in high level players there is doubt and inconclusive opinions so why are you all saying HE WAS HACKING like it was a fact? it's not, he's innocent until proven guilty Yes. Innocent until proven guilty. Not a hard concept. I'd prefer this to be the last response to someone with a low post count/recent join date. Again, your standards for evidence is alarmingly high. In the real world there will most likely never be 100% proof unless the suspect openly admits he did what he was accused of. It is indeed true we cannot say for 100% that he maphacked but the OVERWHELMING amount of evidence tips n the favor of him doing it. His "playing the victim" responses instead of going "hey look I didn't hack and here is why" really doesn't help his case. We will never hit 100% proof but we can get close to unreasonable doubt that he did which is what many believe is where the evidence is at and thus we believe Spades does hack. Your continued posting and low understanding of mechanics as well as incredibly ridiculous standards for evidence needs to end. Hiding behind the wall of 100% proof isn't good enough anymore. And I don't really care what you prefer. Go rally your mod friends and get me banned if you want me to go away. Else I'm staying put. Your posts are turning to shit now. Because I'm responding to you. You're focusing on pure garbage now and not the issue. The evidence and what story it tells. See my previous post to you. If you want to discuss the evidence, I'd be happy to. But I think it has already been discussed enough, and most agree that it is condemning when you consider it as a whole. Did you watch the set that Illusion posted in the IPL5 quals vs Theognis? You will see the same foul play there. 100 percent proof has nothing to do with it, no one is imposing a 100 percent standard of proof. You made that up to imply absurdity in my position, yet I never subscribed to it. So if you see shit, or garbage, it's just your reflection in the mirror. I don't think we even have any good evidence for it. And alot of people agree with me. You don't like it? I don't care. Go away.
@ chebhe
Are you retarded or just trolling?
Tell me, because hack can never be proved with 100% certanity, what would be hard proof for Spade's cheating? What proof would be better than analysis made by the pros, who noticed fishy decisions and strange play? What proof would be suitable for you?
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Watch your fucking mouth.
No one is demanding 100 percent certainty. That is what the post you quoted says. Think about what you read.
On June 06 2012 07:41 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:39 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:37 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:34 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:27 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:23 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:23 itsjuspeter wrote:On June 06 2012 07:17 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:16 hnQ wrote:
Guys,
there are PROS here supporting that he was hacking
there are OTHER PROS supporting he most likely wasn't
even in high level players there is doubt and inconclusive opinions so why are you all saying HE WAS HACKING like it was a fact? it's not, he's innocent until proven guilty Yes. Innocent until proven guilty. Not a hard concept. I'd prefer this to be the last response to someone with a low post count/recent join date. Again, your standards for evidence is alarmingly high. In the real world there will most likely never be 100% proof unless the suspect openly admits he did what he was accused of. It is indeed true we cannot say for 100% that he maphacked but the OVERWHELMING amount of evidence tips n the favor of him doing it. His "playing the victim" responses instead of going "hey look I didn't hack and here is why" really doesn't help his case. We will never hit 100% proof but we can get close to unreasonable doubt that he did which is what many believe is where the evidence is at and thus we believe Spades does hack. Your continued posting and low understanding of mechanics as well as incredibly ridiculous standards for evidence needs to end. Hiding behind the wall of 100% proof isn't good enough anymore. And I don't really care what you prefer. Go rally your mod friends and get me banned if you want me to go away. Else I'm staying put. Your posts are turning to shit now. Because I'm responding to you. You're focusing on pure garbage now and not the issue. The evidence and what story it tells. See my previous post to you. If you want to discuss the evidence, I'd be happy to. But I think it has already been discussed enough, and most agree that it is condemning when you consider it as a whole. Did you watch the set that Illusion posted in the IPL5 quals vs Theognis? You will see the same foul play there. 100 percent proof has nothing to do with it, no one is imposing a 100 percent standard of proof. You made that up to imply absurdity in my position, yet I never subscribed to it. So if you see shit, or garbage, it's just your reflection in the mirror. I don't think we even have any good evidence for it. And alot of people agree with me. You don't like it? I don't care. Go away. You do realize I'm not itsjustpeter right? You just copypasted your response to what he wrote onto your response to me. Your lack of effort is astounding. How much of the evidence did you actually review besides CatZ stream before you came to your decision on this issue?
If you're quoting me, butting in to our conversation and siding with him; acting as a voice for his position, consider it a statement to both of you. You're all carbon copies of eachother anyway, rehashing what other people say. This whole thread is nothing but mob-think.
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On June 06 2012 07:45 chebhe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:41 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:39 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:37 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:34 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:27 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:23 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:23 itsjuspeter wrote:On June 06 2012 07:17 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:16 hnQ wrote:
Guys,
there are PROS here supporting that he was hacking
there are OTHER PROS supporting he most likely wasn't
even in high level players there is doubt and inconclusive opinions so why are you all saying HE WAS HACKING like it was a fact? it's not, he's innocent until proven guilty Yes. Innocent until proven guilty. Not a hard concept. I'd prefer this to be the last response to someone with a low post count/recent join date. Again, your standards for evidence is alarmingly high. In the real world there will most likely never be 100% proof unless the suspect openly admits he did what he was accused of. It is indeed true we cannot say for 100% that he maphacked but the OVERWHELMING amount of evidence tips n the favor of him doing it. His "playing the victim" responses instead of going "hey look I didn't hack and here is why" really doesn't help his case. We will never hit 100% proof but we can get close to unreasonable doubt that he did which is what many believe is where the evidence is at and thus we believe Spades does hack. Your continued posting and low understanding of mechanics as well as incredibly ridiculous standards for evidence needs to end. Hiding behind the wall of 100% proof isn't good enough anymore. And I don't really care what you prefer. Go rally your mod friends and get me banned if you want me to go away. Else I'm staying put. Your posts are turning to shit now. Because I'm responding to you. You're focusing on pure garbage now and not the issue. The evidence and what story it tells. See my previous post to you. If you want to discuss the evidence, I'd be happy to. But I think it has already been discussed enough, and most agree that it is condemning when you consider it as a whole. Did you watch the set that Illusion posted in the IPL5 quals vs Theognis? You will see the same foul play there. 100 percent proof has nothing to do with it, no one is imposing a 100 percent standard of proof. You made that up to imply absurdity in my position, yet I never subscribed to it. So if you see shit, or garbage, it's just your reflection in the mirror. I don't think we even have any good evidence for it. And alot of people agree with me. You don't like it? I don't care. Go away. You do realize I'm not itsjustpeter right? You just copypasted your response to what he wrote onto your response to me. Your lack of effort is astounding. How much of the evidence did you actually review besides CatZ stream before you came to your decision on this issue? Watch your fucking mouth. No one is talking about 100 percent certainty. That is what the post you quoted says. Think about what you read. If you're quoting me, butting in to our conversation and siding with him; acting as a voice for his position, consider it a statement to both of you. You're all carbon copies of eachother anyway, rehashing what other people say. This whole thread is nothing but mob-think.
Why does the quality of your posts continue to diminish? You turn away from the mechanical question and numerous people have tried to inform you yet you dodge any attempt at a discussion and instead take jabs at people and tell them to fuck off if they don't like it. It is people like you that any attempt or effort is wasted. I really hope I'm not the only one tired of you and want you gone.
Edited: to add in what he edited.
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On June 06 2012 07:25 hnQ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:24 Greenei wrote:On June 06 2012 07:16 hnQ wrote:
Guys,
there are PROS here supporting that he was hacking
there are OTHER PROS supporting he most likely wasn't
even in high level players there is doubt and inconclusive opinions so why are you all saying HE WAS HACKING like it was a fact? it's not, he's innocent until proven guilty
ALSO even on CATZ STREAM he looked into FOW (which they said he turned the hacks off while at it lol?) so why do you keep saying he NEVER did it?
such a weird accusation which proplayer, that has already reviewed the material is STILL saying he's not hacking? i have only seen posts, that say he's hacking for along time. Nerchio and Attero are the ones who I can remember right now
Nerchio says that the OP is not right in EVERY case. But he did not explain the hard stuff like the scan on Shakuras.
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On June 06 2012 07:32 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:24 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 07:16 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:11 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 06:48 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 06:37 Ace.Xile wrote:
I just want to say one thing, it's days like this that I absolutely hate being a part of this community. One person comes out and suggests a variety of circumstantial evidence at best and the next thing you know some guy, guilty or not, has to give up something he loves doing. The absolute worst part is that it doesn't even matter if he was innocent or if he could prove that he wasn't hacking because people just jumped on some bandwagon and crucified him. Even if he was somehow able to prove that he's never hacked this whole thing would have followed him for the rest of his career. Great job.
I completely disagree with your last statement. If he was somehow able to prove he's never hacked, the whole thing would die instantly because he has proved that he's never hacked. This is pretty simple. BUT he has hacked in the past, and that has been proven. So barring your impossible scenario of him being able to prove that he didn't hack this time, I don't blame anyone at all for jumping to conclusions about him this time based on the fact that he hacked in past, and has responded with the same victim mentality this time that he did last time, instead of proactively trying to clear his name. All that, and there is a huge amount of evidence in multiple replays that makes the objective investigator lean toward saying he is cheating in some form. How do you suppose he'd do that without being his opinion against yours? There is no reliable way to prove/disprove hacking so your post is rubbish. Yes, that idea IS rubbish, but it's not my idea, its the guy I was responding to. Click the quoted material view next time idiot. He was saying if it was somehow able to be proved then his career would still be ruined. And I said if it was possible... then no, no his career would not be because he would be vindicated in innocence. User was warned for this post You insult me for my oversight and then went on and stated the same thing in the second paragraph. How do you suppose he proactively tries to clear his name without offering concrete proof he didn't maphack?, because as we've agreed he is unable to do so.. I insulted you for your oversight after you insulted me because of your oversight. I apologize. Let's move on. He can clear his name by responding to specific points that have been asked of him to respond to. Will it definitively exhonerate him by doing this? No people will still hold opinions against him. But it would definitely be much more constructive to his case than flaming his former teammates and playing the victim, which is suspiciously the exact same way he responded last time he was accused of cheating in BW. And that was proven.
I never insulted you.. not even close to it. You went personal on me though, but sure I accept your apologies. AFAIK he responded to the best of his abilities to the points raised by Illusion early on in the thread. He also released a replay pack of his ladder games as was asked by some posters. if that's not enough, then there is little else he can do.. honestly, did you even watch his replays or are you going by what the 'pros' think of them?
On another note, I don't think pros opinions on this matter should be considered of being of higher quality than other people who play the game at a high level, that is unless they are pros at finding maphacks. The reason for that is that, in the absence of conclusive evidence, biases and preconceptions play a much more important role than knowing builds and positioning when deciding someone is hacking.
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EPT
