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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
Guys, about 120 pages ago Illusion posted a set of replays from the IPL5 qualifiers with the same fishy behavior by Spades vs Theognis.
I am reposting as people don't seem to be familiar with these and they are just as full of foul play as the showmatch ones.
http://drop.sc/192066
http://drop.sc/192067
http://drop.sc/192065
Take an objective look if you have the time, don't take my word or any of the pros words for it, examine it for yourself. I will timeline the inconsistent behaviors if you think it will help toward the discussion.
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On June 06 2012 07:56 DaeWang790 wrote:
Is there an alternate source for OP's replays? One that is provided by a more reliable source, such as the actual showmatch producers? Just feels like if you can have a hack while you play to modify your player cam, you can just as easily edit a replay after playing it to make it look like the player is hacking.
If that was the case, Spades would have definitely commented on that and uploaded his version of the replays. He was watching Catz's entire broadcast (he was in the chat) so he was aware of the evidence being planted against him visibly.
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Spades isn't really a big name player.
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On June 06 2012 07:54 RagequitBM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:50 Embir wrote:On June 06 2012 07:47 itsjuspeter wrote:On June 06 2012 07:45 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:41 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:39 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:37 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:34 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:27 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:23 chebhe wrote:
[quote]
And I don't really care what you prefer. Go rally your mod friends and get me banned if you want me to go away. Else I'm staying put. Your posts are turning to shit now. Because I'm responding to you. You're focusing on pure garbage now and not the issue. The evidence and what story it tells. See my previous post to you. If you want to discuss the evidence, I'd be happy to. But I think it has already been discussed enough, and most agree that it is condemning when you consider it as a whole. Did you watch the set that Illusion posted in the IPL5 quals vs Theognis? You will see the same foul play there. 100 percent proof has nothing to do with it, no one is imposing a 100 percent standard of proof. You made that up to imply absurdity in my position, yet I never subscribed to it. So if you see shit, or garbage, it's just your reflection in the mirror. I don't think we even have any good evidence for it. And alot of people agree with me. You don't like it? I don't care. Go away. You do realize I'm not itsjustpeter right? You just copypasted your response to what he wrote onto your response to me. Your lack of effort is astounding. How much of the evidence did you actually review besides CatZ stream before you came to your decision on this issue? If you're quoting me, butting in to our conversation and siding with him; acting as a voice for his position, consider it a statement to both of you. You're all carbon copies of eachother anyway, rehashing what other people say. This whole thread is nothing but mob-think. Why does the quality of your posts continue to diminish? You turn away from the mechanical question and numerous people have tried to inform you yet you dodge any attempt at a discussion and instead take jabs at people and tell them to fuck off if they don't like it. It is people like you that any attempt or effort is wasted. I really hope I'm not the only one tired of you and want you gone. Im with you on this one. Guy is just trolling. It is like a discussion between atheists and religious people, and chebhe is a religious guy. Take a look at the quality of the post you just made. Don't go attacking people with a faith in something completely unrelated.
Im not attacking religious people. This comparison only means that chebhe, exactly as religious people, is closed for rational arguments.
User was warned for this post
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On June 06 2012 07:58 chebhe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:55 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:50 Embir wrote:On June 06 2012 07:47 itsjuspeter wrote:On June 06 2012 07:45 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:41 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:39 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:37 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:34 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:27 StarStrider wrote:
[quote]
Your posts are turning to shit now.
Because I'm responding to you. You're focusing on pure garbage now and not the issue. The evidence and what story it tells. See my previous post to you. If you want to discuss the evidence, I'd be happy to. But I think it has already been discussed enough, and most agree that it is condemning when you consider it as a whole. Did you watch the set that Illusion posted in the IPL5 quals vs Theognis? You will see the same foul play there. 100 percent proof has nothing to do with it, no one is imposing a 100 percent standard of proof. You made that up to imply absurdity in my position, yet I never subscribed to it. So if you see shit, or garbage, it's just your reflection in the mirror. I don't think we even have any good evidence for it. And alot of people agree with me. You don't like it? I don't care. Go away. You do realize I'm not itsjustpeter right? You just copypasted your response to what he wrote onto your response to me. Your lack of effort is astounding. How much of the evidence did you actually review besides CatZ stream before you came to your decision on this issue? If you're quoting me, butting in to our conversation and siding with him; acting as a voice for his position, consider it a statement to both of you. You're all carbon copies of eachother anyway, rehashing what other people say. This whole thread is nothing but mob-think. Why does the quality of your posts continue to diminish? You turn away from the mechanical question and numerous people have tried to inform you yet you dodge any attempt at a discussion and instead take jabs at people and tell them to fuck off if they don't like it. It is people like you that any attempt or effort is wasted. I really hope I'm not the only one tired of you and want you gone. Im with you on this one. Guy is just trolling. It is like a discussion between atheists and religious people, and chebhe is a religious guy. Yeah, now that I think about it you're probably right. Let's just ignore it until it goes away. More attitude compensates for your lack of good evidence.
That's rich coming from the guy who just called someone fuckface. I'm leaving your original post in my quote too, it's never going away.
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On June 06 2012 07:58 chebhe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:55 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:50 Embir wrote:On June 06 2012 07:47 itsjuspeter wrote:On June 06 2012 07:45 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:41 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:39 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:37 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:34 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:27 StarStrider wrote:
[quote]
Your posts are turning to shit now.
Because I'm responding to you. You're focusing on pure garbage now and not the issue. The evidence and what story it tells. See my previous post to you. If you want to discuss the evidence, I'd be happy to. But I think it has already been discussed enough, and most agree that it is condemning when you consider it as a whole. Did you watch the set that Illusion posted in the IPL5 quals vs Theognis? You will see the same foul play there. 100 percent proof has nothing to do with it, no one is imposing a 100 percent standard of proof. You made that up to imply absurdity in my position, yet I never subscribed to it. So if you see shit, or garbage, it's just your reflection in the mirror. I don't think we even have any good evidence for it. And alot of people agree with me. You don't like it? I don't care. Go away. You do realize I'm not itsjustpeter right? You just copypasted your response to what he wrote onto your response to me. Your lack of effort is astounding. How much of the evidence did you actually review besides CatZ stream before you came to your decision on this issue? If you're quoting me, butting in to our conversation and siding with him; acting as a voice for his position, consider it a statement to both of you. You're all carbon copies of eachother anyway, rehashing what other people say. This whole thread is nothing but mob-think. Why does the quality of your posts continue to diminish? You turn away from the mechanical question and numerous people have tried to inform you yet you dodge any attempt at a discussion and instead take jabs at people and tell them to fuck off if they don't like it. It is people like you that any attempt or effort is wasted. I really hope I'm not the only one tired of you and want you gone. Im with you on this one. Guy is just trolling. It is like a discussion between atheists and religious people, and chebhe is a religious guy. Yeah, now that I think about it you're probably right. Let's just ignore it until it goes away. More attitude compensates for your lack of good evidence.
I have just reposted another set from Illusion that you probably didn't look at. This is more good evidence in addition to what is already contained in this thread which I won't be repeating.
This will be my last post directly responding to you. Good day.
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On June 06 2012 07:59 itsjuspeter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:54 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:47 itsjuspeter wrote:On June 06 2012 07:45 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:41 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:39 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:37 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:34 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:27 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:23 chebhe wrote:
[quote]
And I don't really care what you prefer. Go rally your mod friends and get me banned if you want me to go away. Else I'm staying put. Your posts are turning to shit now. Because I'm responding to you. You're focusing on pure garbage now and not the issue. The evidence and what story it tells. See my previous post to you. If you want to discuss the evidence, I'd be happy to. But I think it has already been discussed enough, and most agree that it is condemning when you consider it as a whole. Did you watch the set that Illusion posted in the IPL5 quals vs Theognis? You will see the same foul play there. 100 percent proof has nothing to do with it, no one is imposing a 100 percent standard of proof. You made that up to imply absurdity in my position, yet I never subscribed to it. So if you see shit, or garbage, it's just your reflection in the mirror. I don't think we even have any good evidence for it. And alot of people agree with me. You don't like it? I don't care. Go away. You do realize I'm not itsjustpeter right? You just copypasted your response to what he wrote onto your response to me. Your lack of effort is astounding. How much of the evidence did you actually review besides CatZ stream before you came to your decision on this issue? If you're quoting me, butting in to our conversation and siding with him; acting as a voice for his position, consider it a statement to both of you. You're all carbon copies of eachother anyway, rehashing what other people say. This whole thread is nothing but mob-think. Why does the quality of your posts continue to diminish? You turn away from the mechanical question and numerous people have tried to inform you yet you dodge any attempt at a discussion and instead take jabs at people and tell them to fuck off if they don't like it. It is people like you that any attempt or effort is wasted. I really hope I'm not the only one tired of you and want you gone. The more I respond to you, the less substantial things I have to say. No one has responded to me with evidence of his MH which I might contrast, just vague allusions to evidence. No actual citations with layed out arguments which can be properly addressed. So the quality of the response diminishes, along with the whole discussion. Attempts at discussion, what lame attempts? Show me where? Show real evidence of him maphacking, and I will tell you whether your evidence sucks. We can agree to disagree that is fine. You have your opinion, I have mine. I stated mine but you attacked me and other members with nothing but condescending remarks, foul language, and you act as if everything revolves around you, as if we NEED you to provide us with the a-okay that this is good enough evidence. I'm done getting trolled lol. Also, numerous responses have tried to tell you that mechanically speaking it is already ridiculous someone would change how he plays with such precision like that.
I'm attacking the attackers. You hypocrite... examine yourself. You are ruining this persons career based on speculation.
Speculation. Not solid evidence.
Your evidence sucks. You do not have good evidence he is maphacking, you have noob speculation.
He puts his tank in the correct range of the bunker without scouting....
This is supposed to be evidence? That is the worst evidence for MH I have ever heard.
Considered there is a normal place to put a bunker, approximately? And a reasonable place to siege up a tank?
So a tank outside the sight range of a bunker, this is abnormal? No, not really.
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I've been following this topic somewhat, but the last few pages have completely degenerated in people massively flaming each other. Never have I seen such an excessive amount of "fuck yous" or similar statements on TL.net as right now. Kinda annoying. Really glad though I got to see that link posted in the OP that had all the pro comments compiled.
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On June 06 2012 08:01 Embir wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:54 RagequitBM wrote:On June 06 2012 07:50 Embir wrote:On June 06 2012 07:47 itsjuspeter wrote:On June 06 2012 07:45 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:41 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:39 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:37 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:34 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:27 StarStrider wrote:
[quote]
Your posts are turning to shit now.
Because I'm responding to you. You're focusing on pure garbage now and not the issue. The evidence and what story it tells. See my previous post to you. If you want to discuss the evidence, I'd be happy to. But I think it has already been discussed enough, and most agree that it is condemning when you consider it as a whole. Did you watch the set that Illusion posted in the IPL5 quals vs Theognis? You will see the same foul play there. 100 percent proof has nothing to do with it, no one is imposing a 100 percent standard of proof. You made that up to imply absurdity in my position, yet I never subscribed to it. So if you see shit, or garbage, it's just your reflection in the mirror. I don't think we even have any good evidence for it. And alot of people agree with me. You don't like it? I don't care. Go away. You do realize I'm not itsjustpeter right? You just copypasted your response to what he wrote onto your response to me. Your lack of effort is astounding. How much of the evidence did you actually review besides CatZ stream before you came to your decision on this issue? If you're quoting me, butting in to our conversation and siding with him; acting as a voice for his position, consider it a statement to both of you. You're all carbon copies of eachother anyway, rehashing what other people say. This whole thread is nothing but mob-think. Why does the quality of your posts continue to diminish? You turn away from the mechanical question and numerous people have tried to inform you yet you dodge any attempt at a discussion and instead take jabs at people and tell them to fuck off if they don't like it. It is people like you that any attempt or effort is wasted. I really hope I'm not the only one tired of you and want you gone. Im with you on this one. Guy is just trolling. It is like a discussion between atheists and religious people, and chebhe is a religious guy. Take a look at the quality of the post you just made. Don't go attacking people with a faith in something completely unrelated. Im not attacking religious people. This comparison only means that chebhe, exactly as religious people, is closed for rational arguments.
Please take the religion trolling out of the thread.
For the record I'm atheist if you think i'm offended by your ignorant remarks.
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lol what rational arguments? Your terrible evidence of maphack which has more holes than a block of swiss cheese?
It is ok to ruin a persons career with a public lynching based on circumstantial evidence, but not ok to say the F word.
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The reason for that is that, in the absence of conclusive evidence, biases and preconceptions play a much more important role than knowing builds and positioning when deciding someone is hacking.
Not really. It doesn't matter what a player's bias is if he/she supports his/her opinion with credible and logical evidence that addresses the issue at hand. Even Nerchio did the same when he defended Spades by explaining the possible rationale behind questionable moves. Unfortunately for Spades, the main game in question is TvT, and all the players with a high understanding of that MU have not been favorable towards Spades - more importantly, they've all explained why they think Spades is guilty based on their understanding of positioning and movement in TvT. And I have yet to see another high TvT player refute any of the reasoning presented by Illusion and Avilo.
Of course there's always the possibility that Spades plays a completely unique and innovative style of TvT, except he doesn't... as shown by some of his other replays.
Do I think he's guilty? Yes.
Do I know he's guilty? No.
Since no one knows he's guilty, he shouldn't be ostracized and have his opportunities cut off in terms of tournaments and sponsorship. But at the same time, tournaments should set up extra precautions until Spades has proven he is a legitimate winner. If he can't win when people are scrutinizing his play, then his career will fail regardless. You don't need to prove he's a cheater to oust him. Just prevent him from cheating and leave it to raw talent to determine his fate.
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Ughhh..., this is such a bad thing for Starcraft. I just hope online tournies don't get too affected by this.
Considering how people "threaten" the op i really think he did right in going anonymous.
People will now be really scared of accusing hackers just because they don't have 100% proof (which is IMPOSSIBLE unless he streams himself cheating. This thread is just an example, the amount of strange behaviors specially when compared to his ladder games tell me his does in fact hack. But there is absolutely no way to fully know.)
We will probably never know the truth until he confesses, he wins or does amazingly at a major LAN (I'm guessing this is the only way he can prove innocence, i don't see any other way) or blizzard fucking develops a (better) hack detection system.
I do think this is unfair to spades because if he didn't hack i don't see what he could do.
But let me add that this phrase: "Guess it's time to retire after Anaheim." is extremely suspicious.
And i think the op should have messaged WW team instead of making a thread. (however I'm guessing that all that would have happened is WW saying there is not enough evidence)
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There really needs to be a better way to determine hackers.
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On June 06 2012 08:05 English wrote:
There really needs to be a better way to determine hackers.
Or a better way to deal with possible reports of hacking.
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On June 06 2012 08:04 chebhe wrote:
It is ok to ruin a persons career with a public lynching based on circumstantial evidence, but not ok to say the F word.
you really dont understand the difference?
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On June 06 2012 08:05 Reptilia wrote:
And i think the op should have messaged WW team instead of making a thread. (however I'm guessing that all that would have happened is WW saying there is not enough evidence)
As much as I hate to say it, sometimes the shit storm is the only thing that wakes complacent team managers or league organizers up and forces their hand. Not saying all the drama and whatnot is good or constructive, but the awareness of the issue by someone posting it in public forum is sometimes what it takes for a change to be made.
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On June 06 2012 08:04 chebhe wrote:
It is ok to ruin a persons career with a public lynching based on circumstantial evidence, but not ok to say the F word.
HAHAHA. I couldn't give less of a fuck if you use the fucking f word, but telling someone to "watch your fucking mouth" before telling them "Learn to read, fuckface", is just fucking retarded.
Most trolls try to be a little less obvious about it. Kinda like maphacking;)
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On June 06 2012 08:08 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 08:04 chebhe wrote:
It is ok to ruin a persons career with a public lynching based on circumstantial evidence, but not ok to say the F word. you really dont understand the difference?
Sure I do. One is mock civil and barbaric, the other is superficially barbaric but at heart civil.
Do you?
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On June 06 2012 08:01 Embir wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:54 RagequitBM wrote:On June 06 2012 07:50 Embir wrote:On June 06 2012 07:47 itsjuspeter wrote:On June 06 2012 07:45 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:41 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:39 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:37 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 07:34 chebhe wrote:On June 06 2012 07:27 StarStrider wrote:
[quote]
Your posts are turning to shit now.
Because I'm responding to you. You're focusing on pure garbage now and not the issue. The evidence and what story it tells. See my previous post to you. If you want to discuss the evidence, I'd be happy to. But I think it has already been discussed enough, and most agree that it is condemning when you consider it as a whole. Did you watch the set that Illusion posted in the IPL5 quals vs Theognis? You will see the same foul play there. 100 percent proof has nothing to do with it, no one is imposing a 100 percent standard of proof. You made that up to imply absurdity in my position, yet I never subscribed to it. So if you see shit, or garbage, it's just your reflection in the mirror. I don't think we even have any good evidence for it. And alot of people agree with me. You don't like it? I don't care. Go away. You do realize I'm not itsjustpeter right? You just copypasted your response to what he wrote onto your response to me. Your lack of effort is astounding. How much of the evidence did you actually review besides CatZ stream before you came to your decision on this issue? If you're quoting me, butting in to our conversation and siding with him; acting as a voice for his position, consider it a statement to both of you. You're all carbon copies of eachother anyway, rehashing what other people say. This whole thread is nothing but mob-think. Why does the quality of your posts continue to diminish? You turn away from the mechanical question and numerous people have tried to inform you yet you dodge any attempt at a discussion and instead take jabs at people and tell them to fuck off if they don't like it. It is people like you that any attempt or effort is wasted. I really hope I'm not the only one tired of you and want you gone. Im with you on this one. Guy is just trolling. It is like a discussion between atheists and religious people, and chebhe is a religious guy. Take a look at the quality of the post you just made. Don't go attacking people with a faith in something completely unrelated. Im not attacking religious people. This comparison only means that chebhe, exactly as religious people, is closed for rational arguments.
Please stop with this. This, in NO way, raises the level of the conversation in this thread.
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i watched some of the replays and i didnt really notice anything that would make me say he is a hacker. i mean... most of the points in the open post are pointless anyway. some reactions of spades which the op claims are a hint for spades hacking are just reasonable, others can be luck or simply spades assuming.
can someone explain to me the point of the camera block? as someone posted in another thread, with such hacks you have a production tab + supply count so why not simply turn off the "camera block function"(or however you call it).
it's already a massive advantage and i doubt a pro would have to look into the fog of war to realize "oh, the banshee is coming from this direction" or how tall the army is or what ever, when he can see everything on the minimap and what his opponent built and what the supply count is.
also, i watched some replays of people using this camera block thing and it is way more obvious than just a couple of seconds every 5-10 minutes where the camera doesnt move.
i honestly doubt he would have lost a single game when he used hacks. especially in a mirror matchup where positioning and figuring out what the opponent does means basically everyhing.
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EPT
