EPT[?] Spades hacking? - Page 202
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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here 10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here. 08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) | ||
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
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crxer
United States16 Posts
On June 06 2012 06:36 Thallis wrote: The hack makes it incapable for you to look into the fog of war in the replay. He is actually looking into the fog of war, but on the replay it shows his cameral frozen on his last position. thats the free version theres a paid version that actually, does actions while you look at the fog of war. If he is using the free version he should do NO other actions while he is staring at his oponents based using camera lock although it takes a second or 2 because you click the middle mouse scroll quick to them and after you release it it takes you back to where you started it should not be more then 3-2 seconds and my apm is low as fuck comapred to him. So yea... | ||
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norjoncal
89 Posts
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crxer
United States16 Posts
On June 06 2012 06:50 norjoncal wrote: Not sure if this has been mentioned. Why does Spades not let an independent party remote his computer and do some forensic work to see if he downloaded, searched or had remnants of hacking programs? They could also check to see if his hard drive had been wiped. Maybe WW was already doing this internally. because if he knows anything about computers he can easily erase any trace of any hacks ever being used on his computer. Unless he is completely computer illiterate. | ||
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chebhe
United States113 Posts
On June 06 2012 04:37 CandyHunterz wrote: what the hell more do you want? if you want to defend spades go make a video of yourself debunking all the suspicious things that he did with detailed explanations. instead, you chose a method of defending spades by calling other people stupid idiots and hypocrites who jump on the bandwagon? guess what, you jumped on the bandwagon yourself...the kind of bandwagon that want to defend spades by inputting their own silly opinions without looking at the overwhelming evidence and insulting others. GG Listen PAL, The burden of proof is on you. I don't have to disprove your suspicious lack of proof . All I have to do is shed doubt. But me doing so would be redundant, since there is plenty of doubt already shown. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On June 06 2012 06:37 rhs408 wrote: Spades, Can you please address why you didn't take better advantage of your sitting at #1 rank GM? This was the biggest opportunity of your career to get your name out, get more recognition, build up fan base, etc. If you had streamed during this time you would have broken 1000 concurrent viewers easily - people would have loved to watch how much you had improved and what you are currently doing to put up such a good win% along with the #1 GM rank. But instead... it was like you had vanished off the face of the earth...wtf? Put this along with gIX's story, and 100% hard evidence of map hacking is not necessary anymore, especially when you provide absolutely no explanation of these circumstances (with you being #1 GM but taking zero advantage of it). People don't get #1 GM by getting lucky. A high master/low GM doesn't just wake up one day and put up a 75+% win ratio against the top of the ladder. Or, maybe they do - this is where you explanation comes in. We're all waiting to hear it. Signed, Former Spades stream watcher Spades, I have no right to ask you anything, but I demand that you answer all my questions (and post-haste as well). Signed, Person who has no right to interfere in your personal business. | ||
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jacksonlee
175 Posts
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BoZiffer
United States1841 Posts
On June 06 2012 06:53 chebhe wrote: Listen PAL, The burden of proof is on you. I don't have to disprove your suspicious lack of proof . All I have to do is shed doubt. But me doing so would be redundant, since there is plenty of doubt already shown. Not really. This isn't a criminal case, its more like a civil case in which the burden of proof is Preponderance of the Evidence - in short, more probable one way than the alternative. Your standard of proof is far too high for this instance. | ||
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chebhe
United States113 Posts
On June 06 2012 06:57 jacksonlee wrote: Am I the only person who didn't think any of Catz' analysis was definite evidence? One moment he's like, "oh he can't look in fog of war", next he's like "here he is looking at fog of war, he must've turned it off." what... No, you aren't. The 50% of rational people watching noticed the same. | ||
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Nemireck
Canada1875 Posts
On June 06 2012 06:44 chebhe wrote: The evidence for Spades MHing has been shed doubt upon numerous times, and Spades has responded publicly. People now continue to call him a map hacker. There is no proof of this. That's slander. Every slanderous remark has a minor level of justification behind it. The important question is whether it's personally motivated for the purpose of defamation, or whether it's rationally motivated. It's come to light the OP has personal motivations underlying all this. A strong case for slander can be made. If I am Spades I contact a lawyer immediately, and contact with TL about this thread being closed. There is no slander occurring, the evidence, although circumstantial, is overwhelming. A very few things that Catz and co. pointed out were refuted (actually, specifically I can only think of ONE thing, the "magic scan" which can be chalked up to a replay error), but the ONE consistent difference between the games provided in his replay pack and VODs, and the games provided that accuse him of cheating is a COMPLETE change in his playing mechanics. That is the most damning evidence out of everything. You can chalk army movements up to luck, you can blind guess an opponents build 7 times in a row (1 time out of thousands), you can blame the replay code for producing "magic scans" (which, by the way, aren't recreated in his legit games, either in VOD, or in replay). But, a high-level player who's put thousands of hours into becoming as good as Spades is can NOT simply overhaul their mechanics for a specific 7-game set when compared to games from the same time-period. You just don't do it. It takes weeks to completely overhaul the specific mechanical way you play a game. Even more damning is the specific mechanical differences, and how they correspond with how the maphack in question would actually work! In the first 5 minutes of a single game from ANY of the 50 games in his replay pack, he views the fog of war more times than his entire 7 game set with Lucifron. This is presumably because the maphack code is written to hide ANY view of the FOW unless you issue a command to your units while viewing. In multiple instances in his legit games, you can see that Spades has an ingrained habit of viewing the FOW to issue commands to his units, lay down scans, land buildings, etc. While in the games against Lucifron, his habits have COMPLETELY changed. He plays ENTIRELY through the minimap to access FOW that can't be seen. Well, actually, he's playing the exact same way, his habits haven't changed at all. The maphack he uses simply overwrites the replay data to make it appear as if he's never viewing the FOW. | ||
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chebhe
United States113 Posts
THe biggest reason this isn't an open and shut case is the public is playing judge and jury, and 95 percent of them are not taking the time to read and carefully, rationally consider the evidence. | ||
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StarStrider
United States689 Posts
On June 06 2012 06:57 jacksonlee wrote: Am I the only person who didn't think any of Catz' analysis was definite evidence? One moment he's like, "oh he can't look in fog of war", next he's like "here he is looking at fog of war, he must've turned it off." what... CatZ is kind of scatterbrained and is not the most organized or prepared person. I am willing to overlook his personal flaws and trying to construe everything into possible hacking, and just focus on the things that are obviously fishy. I examined every moment of all the replays. With that alone, CatZ commentary aside, I see enough questionable moves over multiple replays that remove doubt for me and cause me to believe he is hacking. Nothing presented as evidence by anyone is DEFINITIVE, but with the amount of questionable moves made over a large selection of replays from several different tournaments, and in comparison with the 'control group' of his ladder pack, it is enough corroborating evidence to make a conviction of hacking. Doesn't have to be definitive to do that (IE we don't need a hack detection program to give a positive reading). We can examine evidence and use logic to determine if it is legitimately shady and not just a series of coincidences. | ||
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BoZiffer
United States1841 Posts
On June 06 2012 06:59 chebhe wrote: Even the preponderance of evidence sways in his favor... No, you aren't. The 50% of rational people watching noticed the same. I'm not being a dick here at all, but you think a Preponderance is still in his favor? Interesting. I would have thought the GM rank movement in combo with the differences in mannerisms between VODs would have been sufficient. | ||
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chebhe
United States113 Posts
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nickyboy909
72 Posts
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jacksonlee
175 Posts
On June 06 2012 07:02 Nemireck wrote: There is no slander occurring, the evidence, although circumstantial, is overwhelming. A very few things that Catz and co. pointed out were refuted (actually, specifically I can only think of ONE thing, the "magic scan" which can be chalked up to a replay error), but the ONE consistent difference between the games provided in his replay pack and VODs, and the games provided that accuse him of cheating is a COMPLETE change in his playing mechanics. That is the most damning evidence out of everything. You can chalk army movements up to luck, you can blind guess an opponents build 7 times in a row (1 time out of thousands), you can blame the replay code for producing "magic scans" (which, by the way, aren't recreated in his legit games, either in VOD, or in replay). But, a high-level player who's put thousands of hours into becoming as good as Spades is can NOT simply overhaul their mechanics for a specific 7-game set when compared to games from the same time-period. You just don't do it. It takes weeks to completely overhaul the specific mechanical way you play a game. Even more damning is the specific mechanical differences, and how they correspond with how the maphack in question would actually work! In the first 5 minutes of a single game from ANY of the 50 games in his replay pack, he views the fog of war more times than his entire 7 game set with Lucifron. This is presumably because the maphack code is written to hide ANY view of the FOW unless you issue a command to your units while viewing. In multiple instances in his legit games, you can see that Spades has an ingrained habit of viewing the FOW to issue commands to his units, lay down scans, land buildings, etc. While in the games against Lucifron, his habits have COMPLETELY changed. He plays ENTIRELY through the minimap to access FOW that can't be seen. Well, actually, he's playing the exact same way, his habits haven't changed at all. The maphack he uses simply overwrites the replay data to make it appear as if he's never viewing the FOW. Again, you're taking Catz words as truth. There is, if anyone cared to look, not much difference in his mechanics between his ladder and tournament replays, but you think there is because Catz says so. In that one example where he is "not" hacking on ladder and he scans the colossus army, he does it very similar to how he does while he "hacks", ie. scan the edge of screen, not the center... Yet that was the prime example of how Catz concludes that his ladder style is "different." You guys are far too easily swayed | ||
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itsjuspeter
United States668 Posts
On June 06 2012 07:04 chebhe wrote: There isnt one piece of 'evidence' that hasnt been adequately explained. Infact the biggest piece of proof for MHs, which so many were crying out and citing repeatedly; a camera jumping around in an odd fashion, has already been shown to be a quirk of how replays store information. THe biggest reason this isn't an open and shut case is the public is involved, and 95 percent of people are not taking the time to read and carefully, rationally consider the evidence. No, the biggest piece of evidence is his drastic change in PLAY from LADDER to this BO7. Your standards for evidence are too high and your arrogant posting makes me feel disgusted. Get informed before belittling people who don't agree with you. | ||
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rhs408
United States904 Posts
On June 06 2012 06:54 dAPhREAk wrote: Spades, I have no right to ask you anything, but I demand that you answer all my questions (and post-haste as well). Signed, Person who has no right to interfere in your personal business. I asked one question, and it's a question that many people here would like an answer to from Spades. And it's coming from a former fan and stream watcher of Spades - I just want an honest answer from him. Stop posting in this thread if you have nothing to add. | ||
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chebhe
United States113 Posts
On June 06 2012 07:06 itsjuspeter wrote: No, the biggest piece of evidence is his drastic change in PLAY from LADDER to this BO7. Your standards for evidence are too high and your arrogant posting makes me feel disgusted. Get informed before belittling people who don't agree with you. DUDE. That is NORMAL. You play a series DIFFERENTLY than you play ladder. There is a strategic logic to playing a series, which is not present in random ladder games. You study the opponent. You plan out the series. .... Why are you allowed to have an opinion? See, do you see how your opinion made no sense and was terrible right there? We have 100s of people like you in this thread, with terrible opinions based on nonsense, asserting them as rational fact. And then using them as defamation. | ||
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XxVenem94xX
United States41 Posts
On June 06 2012 06:50 norjoncal wrote: Not sure if this has been mentioned. Why does Spades not let an independent party remote his computer and do some forensic work to see if he downloaded, searched or had remnants of hacking programs? They could also check to see if his hard drive had been wiped. Maybe WW was already doing this internally. Because wtf, this is about hacking in sc2, a game. He didn't do anything illegal, jesus christ. | ||
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