EPT[?] Spades hacking? - Page 201
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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here 10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here. 08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) | ||
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Mrvoodoochild1
United States1439 Posts
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Fyrewolf
United States1533 Posts
On June 06 2012 06:29 crxer wrote: you can't really read into how he responds as people respnd different ways when they are outed like this cmon...his career is already ruined and he got caught hacking.... nothing he can do about it, i know people who still hack and even they say all his movements are hackish the rubbish about the camera lock and the other crap that he was outed first for is not possible but his gameplay screams I HACK!!! I'm not trying to read into his responses too much, I'm merely commenting on how he responded the first time he was accused of hacking back in BW is very similar to now. | ||
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s4life
Peru1519 Posts
On June 06 2012 06:20 StarStrider wrote: Yeah, I read the part that Mirhi thinks he's a cheater, and said so. Does this mean he had a vendetta against Spades? Please show me the evidence of why he would. Did Gix have a vendetta against him? Did CatZ, Drewbie, or Illusion? Why should I believe they have a vendetta? Just because they have nothing to possibly gain other than revenge? What if there are some people who just generally can't stand people that are known cheaters, and want to make them pay and set an example? If that is what you are referring to as a vendetta, then I guess I agree. But we should all hold vendettas then. Cheaters should pay the price when caught. Gix, Catz and the others just expressed their 'expert' opinions -- most of which were shown to be patently wrong in this thread BTW -- Mirhi's post on the other hand is of a different nature. He not only accuses Spades as cheater in a straightforward way, but he does it at a very 'convenient' time and furthermore, he does not disclose the context -- there is apparently bad blood between them. Would Mirhi have been stating the truth? maybe, but it looks more like vendetta to me since none else has come forwards with such direct accusations. | ||
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crxer
United States16 Posts
It'd be nice if you specifically addressed why you use the minimap so much in these games, but not the ladder pack. Also, your thoughts about some of the top things in the thread would go a lot toward helping us understand. Specifically, your movements in the middle of Antiga, your complete lack of watching the SCV when you scout with it, and the cross spawn scan on Antiga without scouting.[/QUOTE] Or never rallying or looking into the fog of war in maphack games but on stream he always looks into fog of war like every other player.[/QUOTE] the fog of war thing is not conclive proof but when i first started hacking years ago i used to do that, he must not hack much if he is stupid enough to not use the fog of war. He seems to only hack sometimes so i would assume he isnt good enough to hack perfectly i know many gms that arent outed yet that hack but i wil keep that to myself. Blizzard will take care of it once 1.5 comes out which i can't wait for. | ||
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Impervious
Canada4215 Posts
 From what I read, I'm not convinced that there was any map hacking in those, or any other games. Innocent until proven guilty imo. Keep your head up Spades, and go kick some ass this weekend in Anaheim! | ||
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
On June 06 2012 06:25 ConRa wrote: I have a really hard time to understand someone who use hacks. If I win because of something unjustified, I do not feel any satisfaction at all. The key difference is that you're not(so I assume, anyway) playing for money. Money is power, and humans will do anything for power. | ||
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chebhe
United States113 Posts
On June 06 2012 04:09 TheSwamp wrote: I think you need to leave now. Your profile suspicious as fuck. suspicious, lol? THe blind, random paranoias of a blind fool? | ||
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Thallis
United States314 Posts
On June 06 2012 06:33 crxer wrote: the fog of war thing is not conclive proof but when i first started hacking years ago i used to do that, he must not hack much if he is stupid enough to not use the fog of war. He seems to only hack sometimes so i would assume he isnt good enough to hack perfectly i know many gms that arent outed yet that hack but i wil keep that to myself. Blizzard will take care of it once 1.5 comes out which i can't wait for. The hack makes it incapable for you to look into the fog of war in the replay. He is actually looking into the fog of war, but on the replay it shows his cameral frozen on his last position. | ||
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getSome[703]
United States753 Posts
On June 06 2012 06:32 s4life wrote: Gix, Catz and the others just expressed their 'expert' opinions -- most of which were shown to be patently wrong in this thread BTW -- Mirhi's post on the other hand is of a different nature. He not only accuses Spades as cheater in a straightforward way, but he does it at a very 'convenient' time and furthermore, he does not disclose the context -- there is apparently bad blood between them. Would Mirhi have been stating the truth? maybe, but it looks more like vendetta to me since none else has come forwards with such direct accusations. Please point me to where "most of" Gix's and Cat's points were refuted. Also, watch the games illusion posted.. it's pretty obvious | ||
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Ace.Xile
United States286 Posts
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rhs408
United States904 Posts
Can you please address why you didn't take better advantage of your sitting at #1 rank GM? This was the biggest opportunity of your career to get your name out, get more recognition, build up fan base, etc. If you had streamed during this time you would have broken 1000 concurrent viewers easily - people would have loved to watch how much you had improved and what you are currently doing to put up such a good win% along with the #1 GM rank. But instead... it was like you had vanished off the face of the earth...wtf? Put this along with gIX's story, and 100% hard evidence of map hacking is not necessary anymore, especially when you provide absolutely no explanation of these circumstances (with you being #1 GM but taking zero advantage of it). People don't get #1 GM by getting lucky. A high master/low GM doesn't just wake up one day and put up a 75+% win ratio against the top of the ladder. Or, maybe they do - this is where you explanation comes in. We're all waiting to hear it. Signed, Former Spades stream watcher | ||
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StarStrider
United States689 Posts
On June 06 2012 06:32 s4life wrote: Gix, Catz and the others just expressed their 'expert' opinions -- most of which were shown to be patently wrong in this thread BTW -- Mirhi's post on the other hand is of a different nature. He not only accuses Spades as cheater in a straightforward way, but he does it at a very 'convenient' time and furthermore, he does not disclose the context -- there is apparently bad blood between them. Would Mirhi have been stating the truth? maybe, but it looks more like vendetta to me since none else has come forwards with such direct accusations. Could be just a personal vendetta. Or maybe, as someone who knows Spades and his past better than anyone, he can speak with authority in saying this is something Spades would do. Just like the other pros, he gains nothing from his sharing his point of view, in my mind he is attempting to help people decide about Spades. And like Mihri, Gix was his former teammate too, who unlike Catz and co., knew Spades and his past very well. And Gix's post about who Spades is and was and that this is likely something he would do is very damning. I find it hard to believe that multiple people who used to live and work with Spades would want to destroy his career over personal vendettas? Maybe that's just me. | ||
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aut0mati0n
United States97 Posts
And at this point does it even matter if he hacked or not? Damage is done, should get to cleaning up the mess. | ||
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Moonling
United States987 Posts
On June 06 2012 06:11 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Ahh, so you're point is that because it's done worse, let's continue the trend? Your argument makes no point, other than admitting that circumstantial evidence fucks innocent people. The circumstantial evidence? How bout his two previous teammates saying he screen cheated? Also how bout him still not outright denying it and just leaving the team? Spades has got caught hacking before. I'm not saying he is hacking now but don't go blame the community for going off some circumstantial evidence to find out if its true or not. Everything that your not sure about is all started on "circumstancial" evidence. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 06 2012 06:37 Ace.Xile wrote: I just want to say one thing, it's days like this that I absolutely hate being a part of this community. One person comes out and suggests a variety of circumstantial evidence at best and the next thing you know some guy, guilty or not, has to give up something he loves doing. The absolute worst part is that it doesn't even matter if he was innocent or if he could prove that he wasn't hacking because people just jumped on some bandwagon and crucified him. Even if he was somehow able to prove that he's never hacked this whole thing would have followed him for the rest of his career. Great job. You skipped the part where a large number of professional players came in to back up the OPs claim. That is when this thread really took off. If you can get a large number of professional players to spend time and effort attempting to prove you are hacking, you had better put of a better defense than "There is nothing I can do about it, I am just doomed. The community judges you without any proof". | ||
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Sein
United States1811 Posts
On June 06 2012 05:00 cydial wrote: You're not. With the evidence at hand to say that Spades actually map hacked is just stupid. "We have attempted to investigate these claims (unfortunately not exhaustively because of how swiftly the rumors spiraled out of control). Our investigation as far as we've been given the time to look into the matter shows that most of the claims are circumstantial at best. Spades prepared intensively for the showmatch in question as it was hosted by our team and studied and familiarized himself with LucifroN's builds. We acknowledge there seem to be suspect occurrences but nothing that should be considered more than circumstantial. Considering a player should be considered innocent until proven guilty and the lack of conclusive proof, we don't believe Spades used maphacks." I'm gonna make a thread about how MVP map hacks in online ladder and see how many of you gullible TL goers start questioning his legitimacy and start crying for blood, forget that he's won tournaments he's guilty of map hacking! Hell, I could probably do it for any player I want so long as I find a few replays where they, "Play wierd" or just so happen to have good game sense. More importantly, I just need to sound convincing, sound mysterious by having 1 post count, and be a source that people can, "Trust" even though all I have going for me is just my witty slander. Or better yet, so long as the player isn't liked that much this should be easy as fuck because you children love to be the big bullies of the internet. Do it. Go ahead and make a thread about MVP map hacking. Post your evidences and see how many people buy it. I'd like to see it myself. | ||
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chebhe
United States113 Posts
On June 06 2012 04:05 grapesludge wrote: Lol, no he can't win a settlement for something like this. Trust me. If you accuse someone of something, and provide evidence (even if the evidence doesn't hold upon upon further scrutiny), the accuser is generally safe from being sued for slander or libel. The evidence for Spades MHing has been shed doubt upon numerous times, and Spades has responded publicly. People now continue to call him a map hacker. There is no proof of this. That's slander. Every slanderous remark has a minor level of justification behind it. The important question is whether it's personally motivated for the purpose of defamation, or whether it's rationally motivated. It's come to light the OP has personal motivations underlying all this. A strong case for slander can be made. If I am Spades I contact a lawyer immediately, and contact with TL about this thread being closed. | ||
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IcedBacon
Canada906 Posts
On June 06 2012 06:42 Sein wrote: Do it. Go ahead and make a thread about MVP map hacking. Post your evidences and see how many people buy it. I'd like to see it myself. I love how people think it's so easy to write up a thread accusing a player like this. There's a reason this thread took off like it did. | ||
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ScarSSBM
United States21 Posts
Regarding innocent until proven guilty, this is a concept that relies on a sophisticated and well-defined criminal justice system, where "proof" is actually fairly nebulous and subjective. "Proof" in these cases, at least in America, is construed as "beyond reasonable doubt" by a group of randomly (more or less) selected citizens, not unlike the stream by Catz and friends. The point that I'm trying to make is that the system TL and the SC2 community is using is entirely unsophisticated and under-equipped to make a conclusive call. To make due with what we have, a call has to be made with less concrete "proof" because it's simply not possible without Blizzard's support to be more concrete. Assuming that there's no way to prove or disprove hacking, then circumstantial evidence is all we're going to get. If a person or group wants to be strict about cheating and hacking, it would behoove the group be treat circumstantial evidence seriously. Surely there is some point at which doubting the claim despite the evidence is unproductive, and it seems like a good idea to have some threshold for which circumstantial evidence in abundance is enough to make a call - it seems like we've passed that point. Second, and some people have also mentioned it, I too think it's interesting (in a bad way) that so many people call out "the community" for one thing or another. I think that there are productive and unproductive ways to influence community members, and just generically saying "be more mature" or "this is not the right way to go about things" isn't very productive, especially considering the options they currently have. I think the OP really thought about this and did the best he could. I'm not sure what others would do in his situation but I don't see how he/she could have known better, and I don't see how the community is expected to not be drawn en masse to this thread given how important and interesting a topic it is. My suggestion would be to create some sort of process for *serious* whistleblowing, where people like the OP can feel like their claims are actually being reviewed seriously, and where they can get a serious response. If the OP doesn't follow the process, the mods can remove or ban at their discretion. | ||
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StarStrider
United States689 Posts
On June 06 2012 06:37 Ace.Xile wrote: I just want to say one thing, it's days like this that I absolutely hate being a part of this community. One person comes out and suggests a variety of circumstantial evidence at best and the next thing you know some guy, guilty or not, has to give up something he loves doing. The absolute worst part is that it doesn't even matter if he was innocent or if he could prove that he wasn't hacking because people just jumped on some bandwagon and crucified him. Even if he was somehow able to prove that he's never hacked this whole thing would have followed him for the rest of his career. Great job. I completely disagree with your last statement. If he was somehow able to prove he's never hacked, the whole thing would die instantly because he has proved that he's never hacked. This is pretty simple. BUT he has hacked in the past, and that has been proven. So barring your impossible scenario of him being able to prove that he didn't hack this time, I don't blame anyone at all for jumping to conclusions about him this time based on the fact that he hacked in past, and has responded with the same victim mentality this time that he did last time, instead of proactively trying to clear his name. All that, and there is a huge amount of evidence in multiple replays that makes the objective investigator lean toward saying he is cheating in some form. | ||
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