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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 06 2012 04:33 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:30 artanis2 wrote:On June 06 2012 04:26 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 04:24 artanis2 wrote:On June 06 2012 04:16 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 04:09 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 04:03 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 03:59 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:56 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:55 JustTray wrote:
[quote]
It doesn't count for anything. If it did, it would only count that its more likely he's a hacker. Once a hacker, always a hacker. You're probably defending him because you are him, are friends with him, or are a hacker yourself. Yeah, clearly I'm Spades. Hope you're being sarcastic. I'm not sure how that refutes my point. Are you one of the teenage children who thinks a legal standard of proof is required for the public to out a video game hacker? Because those people are literally the dumbest ones in this thread. The evidence is there. It's VERY damning. You don't get to dismiss things just because they don't mesh with your preconceived notions. The same goes to you. What about the posts from actual hackers that outline the fact that Spades COULD NOT have been using camera lock? Are you just dismissing those? How about the post from that D3 or whatever website that called the people on TeamLiquid idiots and said that Spades wasn't hacking? You're throwing aside input from experts to follow along with your own "preconceived notions". Before anyone can accuse Spades of maphacking, they need to find a hack that he realistically could have been using. As of right now, none have surfaced. If someone can find one, then I will accept that he was most likely maphacking. If nobody can find one, then it is absolutely impossible that he was maphacking. You mean, the notion that admitted Hackers are asserting that there is only one hack, that doesn't allow you to make actions, therefore Spades could not have cheated? Yes, I'm entirely discounting that, because I'm a rational, logical person, not a moron. There ARE more than 1 version of hacks, and any skilled hacker wouldn't bother to use a packaged one, they would customize it. Not saying that's the case, I'm just saying that to believe hackers defending other hackers and for that reason, is literally the dumbest thing you could do. So no, we don't need to find the hack he used. Not at all. That's an unreasonable, and unnecessary level of proof that only a hacker, or the person being accused would ever think is reasonable. Due to this post the entirely of your opinions can be routinely ignored as entirely without merit, logic, or reason. If anything, you only solidify the case that he is 100% a hacker. You do yourself a favor and him if you don't post your fallacies any longer. If it is impossible to replicate the tool used to commit the crime, then there was no crime committed. If, to prove that someone committed a murder, you need a bullet that can pass through a brick wall without leaving a trace, then you can't prove that that person committed the murder. This is really, really simple. If the crime is impossible to recreate, it is scientifically impossible that it happened. Miracles and magic are not acceptable evidence in a court of law. This is trivial to replicate though. The things that you are saying do not exist could have easily been added to the publicly available hack. The fact that he was selecting his hotkeyed units while the camera lock was on does not mean that he was not using a camera lock. The no-selection-while-locked is protection feature so hackers dont accidentally give themselves away, not a requirement of the lock. Disabling that protection means he can lock camera and spam hotkeys while he's looking around the map. Does he have any experience in programming that could account for him modifying the hack like that? The point is that the author of the hack could enable this with a checkbox and one line of code. The change requires disabling code that they wrote in the first place. It is trivial therefore irrelevant. Have you actually looked at the hack in question to provide evidence to support this? No? Then stop talking. You can't just assert things like this. You have to actually go out there and find evidence.
The evidence is in this thread. The "feature list" provided by another poster in this thread says that it includes a camera lock and selection hiding. Spades was selecting hotkeys during some instances of the supposed camera lock. The selection hiding is an additional feature created by the hack author. Turning off selection hiding (and then being careful) is all it takes to make your argument invalid.
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On June 06 2012 04:34 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:32 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 04:28 Dodgin wrote:On June 06 2012 04:25 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 04:22 fraktoasters wrote:On June 06 2012 04:16 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 04:09 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 04:03 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 03:59 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:56 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, clearly I'm Spades. Hope you're being sarcastic. I'm not sure how that refutes my point. Are you one of the teenage children who thinks a legal standard of proof is required for the public to out a video game hacker? Because those people are literally the dumbest ones in this thread. The evidence is there. It's VERY damning. You don't get to dismiss things just because they don't mesh with your preconceived notions. The same goes to you. What about the posts from actual hackers that outline the fact that Spades COULD NOT have been using camera lock? Are you just dismissing those? How about the post from that D3 or whatever website that called the people on TeamLiquid idiots and said that Spades wasn't hacking? You're throwing aside input from experts to follow along with your own "preconceived notions". Before anyone can accuse Spades of maphacking, they need to find a hack that he realistically could have been using. As of right now, none have surfaced. If someone can find one, then I will accept that he was most likely maphacking. If nobody can find one, then it is absolutely impossible that he was maphacking. You mean, the notion that admitted Hackers are asserting that there is only one hack, that doesn't allow you to make actions, therefore Spades could not have cheated? Yes, I'm entirely discounting that, because I'm a rational, logical person, not a moron. There ARE more than 1 version of hacks, and any skilled hacker wouldn't bother to use a packaged one, they would customize it. Not saying that's the case, I'm just saying that to believe hackers defending other hackers and for that reason, is literally the dumbest thing you could do. So no, we don't need to find the hack he used. Not at all. That's an unreasonable, and unnecessary level of proof that only a hacker, or the person being accused would ever think is reasonable. Due to this post the entirely of your opinions can be routinely ignored as entirely without merit, logic, or reason. If anything, you only solidify the case that he is 100% a hacker. You do yourself a favor and him if you don't post your fallacies any longer. If it is impossible to replicate the tool used to commit the crime, then there was no crime committed. If, to prove that someone committed a murder, you need a bullet that can pass through a brick wall without leaving a trace, then you can't prove that that person committed the murder. This is really, really simple. If the crime is impossible to recreate, it is scientifically impossible that it happened. Miracles and magic are not acceptable evidence in a court of law. Programming is not Miracles or Magic. Are you suggesting Spades produced his own maphack by himself? Please indicate what programming experience he has. I seriously can't believe that just because you can't find this hack that he used you claim that it cannot exist. You're the one that needs to find the hack, not me. Burden of proof, right? I don't need to do anything because I'm not invested in this, It's just hilarious that you say this hack cannot exist because you can't find it anywhere. I'm sure you tried real hard.
Funny, I didn't try at all. I'm not going to do the work when it's the people who are accusing Spades that need to offer proof. I could take any progamer I liked and say "Prove to me he isn't hacking." That's not how proof is supposed to work. Innocent until proven guilty. The witch hunters are ignoring that.
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On June 06 2012 04:34 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:32 artanis2 wrote:On June 06 2012 04:31 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 04:27 Plansix wrote:On June 06 2012 04:16 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 04:09 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 04:03 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 03:59 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:56 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:55 JustTray wrote:
[quote]
It doesn't count for anything. If it did, it would only count that its more likely he's a hacker. Once a hacker, always a hacker. You're probably defending him because you are him, are friends with him, or are a hacker yourself. Yeah, clearly I'm Spades. Hope you're being sarcastic. I'm not sure how that refutes my point. Are you one of the teenage children who thinks a legal standard of proof is required for the public to out a video game hacker? Because those people are literally the dumbest ones in this thread. The evidence is there. It's VERY damning. You don't get to dismiss things just because they don't mesh with your preconceived notions. The same goes to you. What about the posts from actual hackers that outline the fact that Spades COULD NOT have been using camera lock? Are you just dismissing those? How about the post from that D3 or whatever website that called the people on TeamLiquid idiots and said that Spades wasn't hacking? You're throwing aside input from experts to follow along with your own "preconceived notions". Before anyone can accuse Spades of maphacking, they need to find a hack that he realistically could have been using. As of right now, none have surfaced. If someone can find one, then I will accept that he was most likely maphacking. If nobody can find one, then it is absolutely impossible that he was maphacking. You mean, the notion that admitted Hackers are asserting that there is only one hack, that doesn't allow you to make actions, therefore Spades could not have cheated? Yes, I'm entirely discounting that, because I'm a rational, logical person, not a moron. There ARE more than 1 version of hacks, and any skilled hacker wouldn't bother to use a packaged one, they would customize it. Not saying that's the case, I'm just saying that to believe hackers defending other hackers and for that reason, is literally the dumbest thing you could do. So no, we don't need to find the hack he used. Not at all. That's an unreasonable, and unnecessary level of proof that only a hacker, or the person being accused would ever think is reasonable. Due to this post the entirely of your opinions can be routinely ignored as entirely without merit, logic, or reason. If anything, you only solidify the case that he is 100% a hacker. You do yourself a favor and him if you don't post your fallacies any longer. If it is impossible to replicate the tool used to commit the crime, then there was no crime committed. If, to prove that someone committed a murder, you need a bullet that can pass through a brick wall without leaving a trace, then you can't prove that that person committed the murder. This is really, really simple. If the crime is impossible to recreate, it is scientifically impossible that it happened. Miracles and magic are not acceptable evidence in a court of law. That is not correct. Scott Peterson was convicted largely through circumstantial evidence. There was no murder weapon, witness to the crime or hard evidence that he committed the murder. However, there was overwhelming evidence that he had committed some sort of crime and was acting as if he was attempting to hide a body. The case came down to the argument that there was no other reasonable argument for what he was doing except attempting to hide his wife’s body. That... that's not at all the same. There's a difference between "we don't know" and "it can't be done". Like, let's say a murderer throws his knife into the lake. We can't tell what kind of knife he used, but from the stab wounds on the body he's trying to bury we can tell it was a knife. But if the murderer stabs the victim while being present at a ballroom dance halfway across the globe... there's no knife that can do that. Similarly, the hackers themselves have said that what Spades has shown is inconsistent with the hacks that are out there. This means he's using an impossible weapon, unless evidence can be offered to support the ridiculous notion that he created his own hack or modified the existing one. And your argument of "it can't be done" is blatantly false. Thank's for proving that your point is wrong. Burden of proof. Nobody has provided any hack, existing or modified, that can replicate Spades' replays. Until you do, he's innocent. That's the way this stuff is supposed to work.
You realize that with in your scenario, no one can possibly hack in starcraft 2, because there is currently no way to prove one way or the other that anyone is hacking.
Could you respond to this, if you would? Are you arguing that hacking does not occur, or that since it cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, we should assume not a single person (including Spades) uses map hacks?
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On June 06 2012 04:32 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:28 Dodgin wrote:On June 06 2012 04:25 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 04:22 fraktoasters wrote:On June 06 2012 04:16 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 04:09 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 04:03 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 03:59 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:56 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:55 JustTray wrote:
[quote]
It doesn't count for anything. If it did, it would only count that its more likely he's a hacker. Once a hacker, always a hacker. You're probably defending him because you are him, are friends with him, or are a hacker yourself. Yeah, clearly I'm Spades. Hope you're being sarcastic. I'm not sure how that refutes my point. Are you one of the teenage children who thinks a legal standard of proof is required for the public to out a video game hacker? Because those people are literally the dumbest ones in this thread. The evidence is there. It's VERY damning. You don't get to dismiss things just because they don't mesh with your preconceived notions. The same goes to you. What about the posts from actual hackers that outline the fact that Spades COULD NOT have been using camera lock? Are you just dismissing those? How about the post from that D3 or whatever website that called the people on TeamLiquid idiots and said that Spades wasn't hacking? You're throwing aside input from experts to follow along with your own "preconceived notions". Before anyone can accuse Spades of maphacking, they need to find a hack that he realistically could have been using. As of right now, none have surfaced. If someone can find one, then I will accept that he was most likely maphacking. If nobody can find one, then it is absolutely impossible that he was maphacking. You mean, the notion that admitted Hackers are asserting that there is only one hack, that doesn't allow you to make actions, therefore Spades could not have cheated? Yes, I'm entirely discounting that, because I'm a rational, logical person, not a moron. There ARE more than 1 version of hacks, and any skilled hacker wouldn't bother to use a packaged one, they would customize it. Not saying that's the case, I'm just saying that to believe hackers defending other hackers and for that reason, is literally the dumbest thing you could do. So no, we don't need to find the hack he used. Not at all. That's an unreasonable, and unnecessary level of proof that only a hacker, or the person being accused would ever think is reasonable. Due to this post the entirely of your opinions can be routinely ignored as entirely without merit, logic, or reason. If anything, you only solidify the case that he is 100% a hacker. You do yourself a favor and him if you don't post your fallacies any longer. If it is impossible to replicate the tool used to commit the crime, then there was no crime committed. If, to prove that someone committed a murder, you need a bullet that can pass through a brick wall without leaving a trace, then you can't prove that that person committed the murder. This is really, really simple. If the crime is impossible to recreate, it is scientifically impossible that it happened. Miracles and magic are not acceptable evidence in a court of law. Programming is not Miracles or Magic. Are you suggesting Spades produced his own maphack by himself? Please indicate what programming experience he has. I seriously can't believe that just because you can't find this hack that he used you claim that it cannot exist. You're the one that needs to find the hack, not me. Burden of proof, right?
Claiming that a hack doesn't exist because you can't find it is as bad as blindly stating that such a hack exists with no proof, to be fair.
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On June 06 2012 04:32 JustTray wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:27 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 04:25 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 04:21 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 04:19 OneOther wrote:On June 06 2012 04:02 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:59 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:56 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:55 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:52 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
People are doing exactly that. Axeltoss has made some very convincing analyses that basically make a lot of what Catz said irrelevant. Gix/Artist/Mihai's comments concern something completely different than maphacking. Lots of people streamcheat who don't maphack. Streamcheating is not sufficient to establish maphacking.
He was a proven hacker in a different game. He did not hack in Sc2 for a long time (at the very least). That needs to count for something.
It doesn't count for anything. If it did, it would only count that its more likely he's a hacker. Once a hacker, always a hacker. You're probably defending him because you are him, are friends with him, or are a hacker yourself. Yeah, clearly I'm Spades. Hope you're being sarcastic. I'm not sure how that refutes my point. Are you one of the teenage children who thinks a legal standard of proof is required for the public to out a video game hacker? Because those people are literally the dumbest ones in this thread. The evidence is there. It's VERY damning. You don't get to dismiss things just because they don't mesh with your preconceived notions. I'm one of the people who thinks you're a moron for implying that I'm affiliated with Spades (or myself a hacker) simply because I don't think there's sufficient evidence, and because you said that "once a hacker, always a hacker." What's your rationale behind spending hours and hours defending him against people's own opinions and judgements? Look, there's not going to be some damning irrefutable evidence. This is not 2006, where people would leave blatant trails of hacking and allow people to find out next week. People downloaded his replays and compared them to suspicious games, and formed their opinion based on those. Taken individually, each might have a reasonable explanation but the aggregate is convincing enough for different people. Progamers have voiced their opinions. Whatever it might be. You are not doing him any good by continuing to argue that there is no hard evidence, because people have different criteria of evaluating evidence, and some folks find the current evidence sufficient. I guess instead of self-victimizig, Spades should rather spend his time explaining the Fog of War discrepancies in his ladder games and the suspicious games. Because that's enough evidence for some people. Your efforts seem futile and pointless to me. No, I don't think you are Spades. I know you are going to reply something along the lines of trying to defend someone until proven guilty, but just realize that he's guilty enough for some, if not most, people given the evidence, his past and etc. If anything, you are making the situation worse by pissing people off who have firmly formed their opinions and who will not be pursuaded by your weak arguments. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. I think the jury's out on whether Spades hacked. I don't know if he did, and I don't know if he didn't. I just think there are far too many holes that keep cropping up in the case against them for me to conclude that he's hacking. Apparently this really offends some people like JustTray, to the point where they'd actually attack me personally. For the record, you started the personal attacks. I simply showed how you argued without logic and it made you mad. Others are now telling you the same, and you still refuse to admit it. Everyone is telling you you are doing nothing but harm to the person you are attempting to defend, and you still continue. You don't refute any of the points made, and you started the cherry picking of my post as one of three options by focusing on me saying you could be spades. Your continued defense does nothing but weaken your already illogical position. You should stop. You don't have to, but if you were at all intelligent, you would have. Here is your first response to me: It doesn't count for anything. If it did, it would only count that its more likely he's a hacker. Once a hacker, always a hacker. You're probably defending him because you are him, are friends with him, or are a hacker yourself. No. Stop lying. In fact, I didn't even reply to you until you, for no reason, asserted that I either was Spades, was a friend of his, or was a hacker myself. All three of these things are false, and all three of them are attacks on my credibility/character. I'm not here to protect Spades's public persona. I want to know if he's hacking. Lying? You just admitted you started the ad hominem. If you think he could be innocent, why would those be attacks on your character? Admit it, you started it and flew off the handle. I just put you in your place. "I'm not defending spades I'm just yelling down anyone who believes he's a hacker." Do you really not see how moronic you sound? You must not.
Because, firstly, you insinuated that I'm a hacker. Secondly, I'm not actually a friend of Spades, nor am I Spades himself. I have no personal interest in this case. You attempting to establish that I have any particular investment in Spades as a person is an obvious attempt to weaken my case by attacking my credibility.
Where exactly is my preceding ad hominem against you? I certainly don't see it. I'm hardly yelling down anyone aside from you, and that's only because you tried to imply that I'm a hacker. See, there's a particular rhetorical device where you list a few plausibly harmless (but negatively connotative) possibilities together with something accusative and demeaning. That's exactly what you did.
To take a cue from your playbook, you're now being ignored, kiddo.
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On June 06 2012 04:02 chebhe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 03:54 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:50 chebhe wrote:
THe mods of TL jump on peoples ass for the smallest, irrelevant infractions, but can't find the balls to close and KEEP CLOSED a 180 post long thread of misguided slander ruining a persons career... Such hypocrites. You should be perma banned for your posts in this thread. Just saying, you're getting off easy. No, every person in this thread who has slandered Spades, especially the OP and the worst offenders; convincing others he is maphacking without having sufficient proof and destroying his career; they should be sued for slander by Spades. Believe me, he CAN win a settlement for something like this. Whoever gets permabanned from this site does not concern me. I do not concern myself with the mods attitudes, not towards what I say. I don't care whether they believe I am right or wrong. I let my comment speak for itself. If the mods have any sense of justice, they will agree with me and this thread will be closed. If they do not agree with me, good ridance. I have no time for pubescent fools in my life, much less living under the thumb of one.
what the hell more do you want? if you want to defend spades go make a video of yourself debunking all the suspicious things that he did with detailed explanations. instead, you chose a method of defending spades by calling other people stupid idiots and hypocrites who jump on the bandwagon? guess what, you jumped on the bandwagon yourself...the kind of bandwagon that
want to defend spades by inputting their own silly opinions without looking at the overwhelming evidence and insulting others.
GG
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On June 06 2012 04:34 InMotion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:30 phantaxx wrote:
The fact that Spades has been so hostile towards all the accusations makes me positive that he is hacking. If he were innocent, all he would have to do is answer any questions honestly and provide as many replays as necessary, and people will see he is not hacking.
If we look at the outcomes of playing victim and calling the accusations ridiculous and sad in all cases:
- If he is not hacking:
a) the community takes his side in thinking that the accusations are absurd and drops the investigating, but it is never fully proven that he did not hack.
b) the community continues investigating despite his hostile denials, and finds him to be innocent, but the most now think that he handled the situation poorly with his responses.
- If he is hacking:
a) same outcome as above a) ^
b) the community continues investigating and determines that he is in fact hacking.
Spades only has something to gain from playing victim in the case that he is guilty.
Oh shutup. The way he answers questions on a forum is hardly proof of ANYTHING. You are not a PhD in Psychology and don't have 30 years of experience in the field. Even then, what you say would STILL be taken with a grain of salt. But you want us to believe you because you would act differently in this type of situation. Give me a fucking break.
There isn't really anything that deep in psychology from what I posted, just an opinion from what I've seen so far.
Maybe I shouldn't have structured the post the way I did so it wouldn't look like I was so official and sure of it haha.
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3740 replies to a witch hunt (as justified it may or may not be)...meanwhile announcement threads or strategy threads or other positive threads barely break 100 posts.
sad panda 
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Repost for people to see.
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The problem with this whole issue is that there's no good way to go about this.
Ofcourse someone is innocent until proven guilty.. but when it comes to hacking.. We can't offer 100% conclusive proof, because this is the first instance that we are really aware of the hacks hanging around and have no other way then studying replays + anocdotes to make a decision.
But if we just let this go as a community, with so much evidence (even if it's not 100% conclusive, it doesn't look good for spades) that will show other people that you can hack, and get away with it, since you can't really proof it.
Ofcourse in time the community will probably come with some nifty program that can detect hacks, but that will probably mess with the starcraft 2 files, which will lead to punishments from blizzard.
So the ball is kinda in blizzards court, to do something against hacking, but Blizzard will take alot of time before actually doing something about this, since they are prioritizing Diablo 3 + HOTS now. Time in which alot of online cups will be played for tons of money.
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I came into this thread hoping that Spades wasn't hacking. Why would I want another career ended because someone did something wrong and got caught or called out.
After reading Spades' responses, watching Catz' replay analysis and looking over the replays myself, I think I'm just going to let the replays speak for themselves. What are the chances of Spades getting "lucky" so many times in a row? Why doesnt he look into fog of war and replays vs Lucifron? Why does he suddenly have the game sense of Flash?
I really hope some hard evidence comes out proving that Spades doesn't hack, but I just can't see it happening. Everything lines up and it's painful as a person who loves this community so much. Though, if it is proven that he was hacking or if he admits to it, we HAVE to burn him.
Players have to realize that their careers will be over in an instant if they're caught hacking, cheating or whatever you want to call it. We have to be hard on them if we want to make this scene legitimate, and unfortunately it looks like we're going to have to make an example out of Spades.
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On June 06 2012 04:37 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:32 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 04:27 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 04:25 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 04:21 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 04:19 OneOther wrote:On June 06 2012 04:02 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:59 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:56 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:55 JustTray wrote:
[quote]
It doesn't count for anything. If it did, it would only count that its more likely he's a hacker. Once a hacker, always a hacker. You're probably defending him because you are him, are friends with him, or are a hacker yourself. Yeah, clearly I'm Spades. Hope you're being sarcastic. I'm not sure how that refutes my point. Are you one of the teenage children who thinks a legal standard of proof is required for the public to out a video game hacker? Because those people are literally the dumbest ones in this thread. The evidence is there. It's VERY damning. You don't get to dismiss things just because they don't mesh with your preconceived notions. I'm one of the people who thinks you're a moron for implying that I'm affiliated with Spades (or myself a hacker) simply because I don't think there's sufficient evidence, and because you said that "once a hacker, always a hacker." What's your rationale behind spending hours and hours defending him against people's own opinions and judgements? Look, there's not going to be some damning irrefutable evidence. This is not 2006, where people would leave blatant trails of hacking and allow people to find out next week. People downloaded his replays and compared them to suspicious games, and formed their opinion based on those. Taken individually, each might have a reasonable explanation but the aggregate is convincing enough for different people. Progamers have voiced their opinions. Whatever it might be. You are not doing him any good by continuing to argue that there is no hard evidence, because people have different criteria of evaluating evidence, and some folks find the current evidence sufficient. I guess instead of self-victimizig, Spades should rather spend his time explaining the Fog of War discrepancies in his ladder games and the suspicious games. Because that's enough evidence for some people. Your efforts seem futile and pointless to me. No, I don't think you are Spades. I know you are going to reply something along the lines of trying to defend someone until proven guilty, but just realize that he's guilty enough for some, if not most, people given the evidence, his past and etc. If anything, you are making the situation worse by pissing people off who have firmly formed their opinions and who will not be pursuaded by your weak arguments. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. I think the jury's out on whether Spades hacked. I don't know if he did, and I don't know if he didn't. I just think there are far too many holes that keep cropping up in the case against them for me to conclude that he's hacking. Apparently this really offends some people like JustTray, to the point where they'd actually attack me personally. For the record, you started the personal attacks. I simply showed how you argued without logic and it made you mad. Others are now telling you the same, and you still refuse to admit it. Everyone is telling you you are doing nothing but harm to the person you are attempting to defend, and you still continue. You don't refute any of the points made, and you started the cherry picking of my post as one of three options by focusing on me saying you could be spades. Your continued defense does nothing but weaken your already illogical position. You should stop. You don't have to, but if you were at all intelligent, you would have. Here is your first response to me: It doesn't count for anything. If it did, it would only count that its more likely he's a hacker. Once a hacker, always a hacker. You're probably defending him because you are him, are friends with him, or are a hacker yourself. No. Stop lying. In fact, I didn't even reply to you until you, for no reason, asserted that I either was Spades, was a friend of his, or was a hacker myself. All three of these things are false, and all three of them are attacks on my credibility/character. I'm not here to protect Spades's public persona. I want to know if he's hacking. Lying? You just admitted you started the ad hominem. If you think he could be innocent, why would those be attacks on your character? Admit it, you started it and flew off the handle. I just put you in your place. "I'm not defending spades I'm just yelling down anyone who believes he's a hacker." Do you really not see how moronic you sound? You must not. Because, firstly, you insinuated that I'm a hacker. Secondly, I'm not actually a friend of Spades, nor am I Spades himself. I have no personal interest in this case. You attempting to establish that I have any particular investment in Spades as a person is an obvious attempt to weaken my case by attacking my credibility. Where exactly is my preceding ad hominem against you? I certainly don't see it. I'm hardly yelling down anyone aside from you, and that's only because you tried to imply that I'm a hacker. See, there's a particular rhetorical device where you list a few plausibly harmless (but negatively connotative) possibilities together with something accusative and demeaning. That's exactly what you did. To take a cue from your playbook, you're now being ignored, kiddo.
m one of the people who thinks you're a moron for implying that I'm affiliated with Spades (or myself a hacker) simply because I don't think there's sufficient evidence, and because you said that "once a hacker, always a hacker."
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Case indeed closed.
User was warned for this post
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On June 06 2012 04:38 Achilles17 wrote:Repost for people to see.
CK seems pretty much just a blind 1 base all-in to me. The only slightly fishy thing is the siege-unsiege right near the end, but I'm not sure what that would have achieved if it was/wasn't hacking. Would like to hear the opinion of Terrans on this, since Illusion didn't really mention it in his writeup.
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This whole prices that has happened reminds me of a great movie.
12 Angry Men
You all should watch it. Except the TL version would be 200 Angry Nerds.
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On June 06 2012 04:36 OPL3SA2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:34 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 04:32 artanis2 wrote:On June 06 2012 04:31 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 04:27 Plansix wrote:On June 06 2012 04:16 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 04:09 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 04:03 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 03:59 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:56 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, clearly I'm Spades. Hope you're being sarcastic. I'm not sure how that refutes my point. Are you one of the teenage children who thinks a legal standard of proof is required for the public to out a video game hacker? Because those people are literally the dumbest ones in this thread. The evidence is there. It's VERY damning. You don't get to dismiss things just because they don't mesh with your preconceived notions. The same goes to you. What about the posts from actual hackers that outline the fact that Spades COULD NOT have been using camera lock? Are you just dismissing those? How about the post from that D3 or whatever website that called the people on TeamLiquid idiots and said that Spades wasn't hacking? You're throwing aside input from experts to follow along with your own "preconceived notions". Before anyone can accuse Spades of maphacking, they need to find a hack that he realistically could have been using. As of right now, none have surfaced. If someone can find one, then I will accept that he was most likely maphacking. If nobody can find one, then it is absolutely impossible that he was maphacking. You mean, the notion that admitted Hackers are asserting that there is only one hack, that doesn't allow you to make actions, therefore Spades could not have cheated? Yes, I'm entirely discounting that, because I'm a rational, logical person, not a moron. There ARE more than 1 version of hacks, and any skilled hacker wouldn't bother to use a packaged one, they would customize it. Not saying that's the case, I'm just saying that to believe hackers defending other hackers and for that reason, is literally the dumbest thing you could do. So no, we don't need to find the hack he used. Not at all. That's an unreasonable, and unnecessary level of proof that only a hacker, or the person being accused would ever think is reasonable. Due to this post the entirely of your opinions can be routinely ignored as entirely without merit, logic, or reason. If anything, you only solidify the case that he is 100% a hacker. You do yourself a favor and him if you don't post your fallacies any longer. If it is impossible to replicate the tool used to commit the crime, then there was no crime committed. If, to prove that someone committed a murder, you need a bullet that can pass through a brick wall without leaving a trace, then you can't prove that that person committed the murder. This is really, really simple. If the crime is impossible to recreate, it is scientifically impossible that it happened. Miracles and magic are not acceptable evidence in a court of law. That is not correct. Scott Peterson was convicted largely through circumstantial evidence. There was no murder weapon, witness to the crime or hard evidence that he committed the murder. However, there was overwhelming evidence that he had committed some sort of crime and was acting as if he was attempting to hide a body. The case came down to the argument that there was no other reasonable argument for what he was doing except attempting to hide his wife’s body. That... that's not at all the same. There's a difference between "we don't know" and "it can't be done". Like, let's say a murderer throws his knife into the lake. We can't tell what kind of knife he used, but from the stab wounds on the body he's trying to bury we can tell it was a knife. But if the murderer stabs the victim while being present at a ballroom dance halfway across the globe... there's no knife that can do that. Similarly, the hackers themselves have said that what Spades has shown is inconsistent with the hacks that are out there. This means he's using an impossible weapon, unless evidence can be offered to support the ridiculous notion that he created his own hack or modified the existing one. And your argument of "it can't be done" is blatantly false. Thank's for proving that your point is wrong. Burden of proof. Nobody has provided any hack, existing or modified, that can replicate Spades' replays. Until you do, he's innocent. That's the way this stuff is supposed to work. You realize that with in your scenario, no one can possibly hack in starcraft 2, because there is currently no way to prove one way or the other that anyone is hacking. Could you respond to this, if you would? Are you arguing that hacking does not occur, or that since it cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, we should assume not a single person (including Spades) uses map hacks?
Your reading comprehension and logic could use some work. The point is, you cannot accuse someone of hacking unless you have proof. You having a "feeling" he's hacking because of how he's playing is useless.
The best proof is to find the hack and mimic it. Technical aspects of the maphack should translate to the replays of Spades vs Lucifron and there you will have the proof.
Most of the pages on this thread are full of "He's hacking because he seiged!". Yeah, it's suspicious, but it doesn't PROVE shit all. You can look deep into any pro gamers replays and you will see suspicious shit. It's because lack of information drives people to make decisions without knowledge. Just because they get lucky doesn't mean they hack.
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On June 06 2012 04:29 Starshaped wrote:OK; everyone open up the game on Cloud Kingdom and go to ~9:50. Better proof cannot be asked for. Blacklist this hacker.
I thought that was fairly damning evidence aswell untill i went into the replay.
While still quite fishy the very small distanced moved allowed the lead tank to be in range of the bottom of the ramp. It would have made more sense in my opinion to move all tanks in range of the ramp he may have wanted to re siege asap in case TheOgnis ran down his ramp.
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On June 06 2012 04:35 artanis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:33 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 04:30 artanis2 wrote:On June 06 2012 04:26 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 04:24 artanis2 wrote:On June 06 2012 04:16 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 04:09 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 04:03 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 03:59 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:56 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, clearly I'm Spades. Hope you're being sarcastic. I'm not sure how that refutes my point. Are you one of the teenage children who thinks a legal standard of proof is required for the public to out a video game hacker? Because those people are literally the dumbest ones in this thread. The evidence is there. It's VERY damning. You don't get to dismiss things just because they don't mesh with your preconceived notions. The same goes to you. What about the posts from actual hackers that outline the fact that Spades COULD NOT have been using camera lock? Are you just dismissing those? How about the post from that D3 or whatever website that called the people on TeamLiquid idiots and said that Spades wasn't hacking? You're throwing aside input from experts to follow along with your own "preconceived notions". Before anyone can accuse Spades of maphacking, they need to find a hack that he realistically could have been using. As of right now, none have surfaced. If someone can find one, then I will accept that he was most likely maphacking. If nobody can find one, then it is absolutely impossible that he was maphacking. You mean, the notion that admitted Hackers are asserting that there is only one hack, that doesn't allow you to make actions, therefore Spades could not have cheated? Yes, I'm entirely discounting that, because I'm a rational, logical person, not a moron. There ARE more than 1 version of hacks, and any skilled hacker wouldn't bother to use a packaged one, they would customize it. Not saying that's the case, I'm just saying that to believe hackers defending other hackers and for that reason, is literally the dumbest thing you could do. So no, we don't need to find the hack he used. Not at all. That's an unreasonable, and unnecessary level of proof that only a hacker, or the person being accused would ever think is reasonable. Due to this post the entirely of your opinions can be routinely ignored as entirely without merit, logic, or reason. If anything, you only solidify the case that he is 100% a hacker. You do yourself a favor and him if you don't post your fallacies any longer. If it is impossible to replicate the tool used to commit the crime, then there was no crime committed. If, to prove that someone committed a murder, you need a bullet that can pass through a brick wall without leaving a trace, then you can't prove that that person committed the murder. This is really, really simple. If the crime is impossible to recreate, it is scientifically impossible that it happened. Miracles and magic are not acceptable evidence in a court of law. This is trivial to replicate though. The things that you are saying do not exist could have easily been added to the publicly available hack. The fact that he was selecting his hotkeyed units while the camera lock was on does not mean that he was not using a camera lock. The no-selection-while-locked is protection feature so hackers dont accidentally give themselves away, not a requirement of the lock. Disabling that protection means he can lock camera and spam hotkeys while he's looking around the map. Does he have any experience in programming that could account for him modifying the hack like that? The point is that the author of the hack could enable this with a checkbox and one line of code. The change requires disabling code that they wrote in the first place. It is trivial therefore irrelevant. Have you actually looked at the hack in question to provide evidence to support this? No? Then stop talking. You can't just assert things like this. You have to actually go out there and find evidence. The evidence is in this thread. The "feature list" provided by another poster in this thread says that it includes a camera lock and selection hiding. Spades was selecting hotkeys during some instances of the supposed camera lock. The selection hiding is an additional feature created by the hack author. Turning off selection hiding (and then being careful) is all it takes to make your argument invalid.
Then that may be it. I'd still like an actual hacker to be giving their input on this, as I'm about as qualified as CatZ to make any judgment. Almost tempted to go to their site just to ask them.
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On June 06 2012 04:31 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:27 Plansix wrote:On June 06 2012 04:16 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 04:09 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 04:03 Acritter wrote:On June 06 2012 03:59 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:56 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:55 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 03:52 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 03:50 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:
[quote]
Yep, ex-teamates and former managers calling him a stream cheater while living with him, numerous pro players and community figures analyzing his games agreeing that he's hacker and cheater, Spades putting up a half ass effort defending himself trying to play the victim,ohhh and he's ALREADY A PROVEN HACKER, people are just drawing whatever conclusion they want right? People are doing exactly that. Axeltoss has made some very convincing analyses that basically make a lot of what Catz said irrelevant. Gix/Artist/Mihai's comments concern something completely different than maphacking. Lots of people streamcheat who don't maphack. Streamcheating is not sufficient to establish maphacking. He was a proven hacker in a different game. He did not hack in Sc2 for a long time (at the very least). That needs to count for something. It doesn't count for anything. If it did, it would only count that its more likely he's a hacker. Once a hacker, always a hacker. You're probably defending him because you are him, are friends with him, or are a hacker yourself. Yeah, clearly I'm Spades. Hope you're being sarcastic. I'm not sure how that refutes my point. Are you one of the teenage children who thinks a legal standard of proof is required for the public to out a video game hacker? Because those people are literally the dumbest ones in this thread. The evidence is there. It's VERY damning. You don't get to dismiss things just because they don't mesh with your preconceived notions. The same goes to you. What about the posts from actual hackers that outline the fact that Spades COULD NOT have been using camera lock? Are you just dismissing those? How about the post from that D3 or whatever website that called the people on TeamLiquid idiots and said that Spades wasn't hacking? You're throwing aside input from experts to follow along with your own "preconceived notions". Before anyone can accuse Spades of maphacking, they need to find a hack that he realistically could have been using. As of right now, none have surfaced. If someone can find one, then I will accept that he was most likely maphacking. If nobody can find one, then it is absolutely impossible that he was maphacking. You mean, the notion that admitted Hackers are asserting that there is only one hack, that doesn't allow you to make actions, therefore Spades could not have cheated? Yes, I'm entirely discounting that, because I'm a rational, logical person, not a moron. There ARE more than 1 version of hacks, and any skilled hacker wouldn't bother to use a packaged one, they would customize it. Not saying that's the case, I'm just saying that to believe hackers defending other hackers and for that reason, is literally the dumbest thing you could do. So no, we don't need to find the hack he used. Not at all. That's an unreasonable, and unnecessary level of proof that only a hacker, or the person being accused would ever think is reasonable. Due to this post the entirely of your opinions can be routinely ignored as entirely without merit, logic, or reason. If anything, you only solidify the case that he is 100% a hacker. You do yourself a favor and him if you don't post your fallacies any longer. If it is impossible to replicate the tool used to commit the crime, then there was no crime committed. If, to prove that someone committed a murder, you need a bullet that can pass through a brick wall without leaving a trace, then you can't prove that that person committed the murder. This is really, really simple. If the crime is impossible to recreate, it is scientifically impossible that it happened. Miracles and magic are not acceptable evidence in a court of law. That is not correct. Scott Peterson was convicted largely through circumstantial evidence. There was no murder weapon, witness to the crime or hard evidence that he committed the murder. However, there was overwhelming evidence that he had committed some sort of crime and was acting as if he was attempting to hide a body. The case came down to the argument that there was no other reasonable argument for what he was doing except attempting to hide his wife’s body. That... that's not at all the same. There's a difference between "we don't know" and "it can't be done". Like, let's say a murderer throws his knife into the lake. We can't tell what kind of knife he used, but from the stab wounds on the body he's trying to bury we can tell it was a knife. But if the murderer stabs the victim while being present at a ballroom dance halfway across the globe... there's no knife that can do that. Similarly, the hackers themselves have said that what Spades has shown is inconsistent with the hacks that are out there. This means he's using an impossible weapon, unless evidence can be offered to support the ridiculous notion that he created his own hack or modified the existing one.
This is directly from the spades hacking thread on d3 as a elder member said
Spades was hacking for NEVER scan the opponent.
I don't know any Terran doing this.
In addition to that, he locked his camera too long.
His screen was idle too long and players on that level just dont do that.
Atleast not that much as he did.
Also he directly had the counters or counter buildings against a specific unit (opponent make Roaches, Spades going extremly safe and build 3 bunkers, very unusual (example)).
Hacking in higher leagues when you become a little bit famous is extremly dangerous.
People will hate you when they caugh you and teh career in this game is over.
If you cheat on tournaments you can even get some treatments.
I know a guy rejected his trip to WCG and when he wanted to go back to WCG (for a new game) he had to pay them so he is allowed to play..
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On June 06 2012 04:27 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:23 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Train is still rolling, TL is still not ending this thread... Apparently the IP matches existing users, but they won't release the name...
I was always curious, in ancient times, or medieval when the church/ruling party declared a witch with no proof other than (if we drop you off a cliff, or burn you, you should survive if you're a witch and die if not) what it would look like. You, the idiotic pitchfork carrying majority posting in this thread, are very interesting to observe... It's a shame that Spades has to be the witch who is forced to deny hacking against a poster who TL is hiding (apparently)... Last time I checked, if you accuse something, you don't call that conclusive evidence, especially an anonymous tip.
But hey, we're humans and apparently we are naturally acustomed to believe anything we hear. I have to go, my house hippo requires feeding. The analogy you used does not work because dropping witches off cliffs does not provide substantial evidence, but pros and experts analyzing replays does. Also, people saw the witch using witchcraft years ago, and it was proven that she was a witch already. Bad analogy.
This analogy doesn't really work cause these pros and experts analyzing replays do not know what they're talking about. The magic scans, bad decision making/game sense can be easily explain.
Magic sans- Starcraft 2 follow camera feature is buggy, it's common in both in a game and fromr replayers where a player makes a action and changes his camera and the camera doesn't keep up. You can easily make a game yourself and test this and there are youtubes videos as well. The fact that Catz and all the fellow experts do not know this kinda makes them lose their "expert" tag.
The iffy decision making can be grounds for suspicion but not this level of a thread. You could simply explain lack of agression while tanks were sieging up by simply stating he didn't know where the army was and knew that was the other player territory. Start to chase vikings and not chasing vikings when they're flying away is common in tvt games.
tl;dr
This is really a joke. The replays do not show someone is hacking since so much of the game is dependent on what the player is thinking or feeling. When you got the xelnaga in the middle, you may be more worry about the other attack path that isn't thru the xelnaga. This simple and logical statement was more reason why Spades was a hacker according to catz&friends.
The best point of evidence is the statement of one player that he stream cheats and koreans stream cheat. But he also accuse a well known korean cheating at a MLG in korean. I would like to see a better cross examination of his statement. The only hard evidence is either spades confess or if players actually come out and say he does and they seen it. These replays prove relativity nothing.
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EPT
