07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here
10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.
08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open.
Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims.
(also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here)
On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote: during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
tl;dr: hacks
Pretty sad. I guess this is what it feels like when the world is out to get you. I convinced them to let you in the house, and you would go so far to make something up like that, pretty fucked up man.
Why would he make something up like this? Your comment reeks of someone who is a compulsive liar, which would make sense given the current accusations.
Sad this happening and I hope in the end that it is not true - but if it is you can still turn it around. After several years of good community service.
I dont know, why did they make up nonsense in a IPL video to publicly slander me?
The whole world is out to get you man. You can do no wrong.
On June 05 2012 13:48 DjDickGrayson wrote: If he uses software surely there has to be glitches and if he was stream cheating surely there has to be traces of his ip.
Did you really just say this? I can't even...
Maybe we can create a gui interface using visual basic to confirm it?
On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote: during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
tl;dr: hacks
Gotta say I pretty much agree with you. When I used to play more often I would play Spades a fair bit on ladder. I was stunned out of my mind to see him go from a semi pro skill level to being idle in terms of playing for a whole season to all of a sudden demolishing top tier NA players who were far better then him before he stopped playing for that short amount of time. I didn't think twice about this because consequently I stopped playing when I saw he was #1 in GM at one point. I couldn't believe it but then again I had nothing to base my non belief off of since I took it for face value. However, with his background of having hacked before and what has serviced recently I would agree that he is definitely hacking. There is too much "coincidence" in the replays and with his history to say he's just become a top gosu at knowing what his opponent is doing. Some players I will admit that are top tier pros are freaks of nature when it comes to metagaming / reading their opponents. Spades has never been this top tier type of player. Also I am sure he has felt the extreme pressure of trying to break away from that cluster of mid tier players and having the ability to win tournaments online can only propel your career forward. I believe with the replays for evidence, analysis from other top tier players and his given history I would say he has definitely hacked. I however do not have 100% proof on this and it is just my opinion given the evidence and history I know of.
On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote: during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
tl;dr: hacks
Pretty sad. I guess this is what it feels like when the world is out to get you. I convinced them to let you in the house, and you would go so far to make something up like that, pretty fucked up man.
Why would he make something up like this? Your comment reeks of someone who is a compulsive liar, which would make sense given the current accusations.
Sad this happening and I hope in the end that it is not true - but if it is you can still turn it around. After several years of good community service.
I dont know, why did they make up nonsense in a IPL video to publicly slander me?
Um, because your history as a known hacker and stream cheater confirms you to be less than kosher? Not difficult to understand. It's not a witch hunt, it's karma, consequences of your shitty behavior.
On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote: ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this
Illusion, TT1 (don't like him but it's true) and Catz are all more accomplished players than you are, so I wouldn't be calling these players idiots and what not.
Bias still makes your argumentation invalid and stupid. When you try to make a point you don't use even things that hold no weight at all the way they did on Entombed.
I saw the series vs Lucifron live, and seriously it was legit, I remember also facepalming at a lot of things he does, it's easy to just remember all the things that might look suspicious and ignore all the stupid things he did that lost him games.
Take everything into account if you want to analyse things seriously, not just what you can make look suspicious and prove the point you want to make.
You can't just cherry pick the things that agree with your argument and ignore the ones that contradicts it, and call them evidences in supporting your argument. For example, people who quotes the bible for lines that supports their moral values yet completely ignores all other immoral stuffs god did based on our standards. Another example, supporter of doomsday 2012 would say that in december 12, 2012 the earth and the planets of solar system would be aligned with the center of our galaxy and hence will pull the earth off it's original orbital path. But what they ignore or choose to left out is that this alignment happens every year. These are the kind of shit that makes scientific prove different from cherry picking proof.
How to be unbias? lists all the fail moves by spade and line them up next to all the suspicious moves compare how much he failed at doing what he intended to do . You don't go into an investigation trying to look for evidence of him hacking, you will of course find stuffs that support your argument. Instead you must go into this investigation looking for overall game play.
This is a voice of reason, I'm completely unbias, if anything i should be against spades since he was in my team when he was caught hacking in the bw days.
On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote: during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
tl;dr: hacks
Pretty sad. I guess this is what it feels like when the world is out to get you. I convinced them to let you in the house, and you would go so far to make something up like that, pretty fucked up man.
Why would he make something up like this? Your comment reeks of someone who is a compulsive liar, which would make sense given the current accusations.
Sad this happening and I hope in the end that it is not true - but if it is you can still turn it around. After several years of good community service.
I dont know, why did they make up nonsense in a IPL video to publicly slander me?
Why are you not explaining away the point that Merz made like someone innocent would?
On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote: during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
Wow, so two people on his team come out and say something? I think this wraps it up
On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote: during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
tl;dr: hacks
Pretty sad. I guess this is what it feels like when the world is out to get you. I convinced them to let you in the house, and you would go so far to make something up like that, pretty fucked up man.
Spades, I am by no means in the position to know if you hacked or not or to pass judgement on you. That being said, if I were you I'd do my very best to not respond to this thread until all accusations and bullshit has been aired. Then take a few days to sleep on it and write a response. Right now I'm sure a lot of this is making you upset and there's no way to explain your case in a way that will help you at this point. If you did cheat then you should confess to it in a well thought out statement. If you didn't cheat you should defend yourself in a well-thought out statement. Just responding to posts, even if they are as inflammatory as Gix's will just dig you a deeper hole.
On June 05 2012 13:43 Gheed wrote: I'm still not entirely convinced. I just don't understand the motive. Why, of all things to maphack in, would he maphack in a showmatch presented in part by his own team for absolutely no prize money? Is there any evidence of him hacking in any other tournaments? Who the hell posted this thread anyway?
I really fucking hate the way we've gone about doing this. Maybe he does hack, but I'm not sure the ends justify the means. If what people are saying is true, there are tons of cheaters in the pro scene, and I certainly don't want a shitstorm for every single one of them.
What? Why not? You don't mind that any online tournament you ever watch could be completely illegitimate?
Of course I don't want hacking in SC2, but crowd sourcing who hacks or not is the worst way to go about it.
QFT. This is the absolute worst way to go about it. It screws the player whether or not the accusations are even true.
On June 05 2012 13:56 Trict wrote: gg another career completely destroyed by this community, I'm ashamed to even be apart of this community. This isn't the right way to handle this.
Yeah we should just let people get away with hacking, you're right because this is absolutely comparable to casters getting fired over bad words. Same exact situation!
On June 05 2012 13:48 DjDickGrayson wrote: If he uses software surely there has to be glitches and if he was stream cheating surely there has to be traces of his ip.
Did you really just say this? I can't even...
Maybe we can create a gui interface using visual basic to confirm it?
Can't we just enhance the reflection from his replays? We may have to flip the screenshot or something, but I'm sure this should work.
On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote: during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
tl;dr: hacks
Pretty sad. I guess this is what it feels like when the world is out to get you. I convinced them to let you in the house, and you would go so far to make something up like that, pretty fucked up man.
Quit diverting attention from the issue at hand. Stop trying to play the victim. You are seriously hurting your case right now the more and more you keep trying to play the victim. The OP and others have taken the time to explicitly point out the red flags in your replays. If you really didn't hack take the time to explain to us how you didn't hack. Playing the victim isn't going to change the fact that you NEVER looked at the fog of war in some of these games....
For those that continue to doubt after watching Catz's stream, don't forget that they also went over other games of Spades, not just the ones vs Lucifron.
For me personally, what convinced me was the games against QxGtheognis, when they went over the little examples (blindly going 1/1/1 without any map vision and going medivac first) -> sieging immediately after moving a few steps even though you have no vision of any army on the high ground (with a viking as well) on cloud kingdom.
2nd game they went over was on Antiga. The army movements by Spade in the middle look very suspicious when comparing the actual info Spades had from his vision. He had no marines out on the sides to confirm army movement, but left the xel-naga in the middle to directly block theognis when he was moving down the bottom side. Later he sends a single marine to confirm that theognis was moving around the top side but he was already moving at that point. This game also displays the whole camera thing, you can see Spades army moving on the minimap to attack theognis but the camera on Spades fpview was still on his rally in between his natural/3rd. So he was moving his army to attack without even looking, and using the minimap only? That seems far fetched to my eyes.
On June 05 2012 13:56 Trict wrote: gg another career completely destroyed by this community, I'm ashamed to even be apart of this community. This isn't the right way to handle this.
Don't be silly. This was handled really well by the community. Alot of people we're on the fence, defended Spades, until the evidence started to pile against him. I don't know for certain if he is a hacker but surely you can't say its not unlikely given all the accusations from former teammates.
On June 05 2012 13:56 Trict wrote: gg another career completely destroyed by this community, I'm ashamed to even be apart of this community. This isn't the right way to handle this.
And what IS the right way to handle it? A tribunal by the Starcraft Government? There are no better experts on SC2 play than the community's pros, most of whom agree the play in question smells like doo doo. This is the ONLY way we can handle it.
On June 05 2012 13:43 Gheed wrote: I'm still not entirely convinced. I just don't understand the motive. Why, of all things to maphack in, would he maphack in a showmatch presented in part by his own team for absolutely no prize money? Is there any evidence of him hacking in any other tournaments? Who the hell posted this thread anyway?
I really fucking hate the way we've gone about doing this. Maybe he does hack, but I'm not sure the ends justify the means. If what people are saying is true, there are tons of cheaters in the pro scene, and I certainly don't want a shitstorm for every single one of them.
What? Why not? You don't mind that any online tournament you ever watch could be completely illegitimate?
Of course I don't want hacking in SC2, but crowd sourcing who hacks or not is the worst way to go about it.
In the absence of an institution or benevolent dictator that the community can trust to handle these types of situations, I think it's the best we can do. Spades deserves a fair hearing in the court of public opinion despite the fact that his credibility is shit because of his BW past.
The thing that chilled even my bones in this thread is Mr. Mihai's allegations that Koreans very frequently streamcheat. I would rather go to bed thinking that all in the world is fine and dandy. Now I don't know what to believe.
On June 05 2012 13:20 sureup wrote: I tested the magic scan, and yes you cannot see the center!
problem is this isn't enough. If you watched the analysis, the scan was SO FAR AWAY from the screen of vision that it was impossible.
you probably slowly moved your mouse up into the corner, not trying to move the screen. If you were a rank 1 GM for awhile on ladder. You should know that his mouse movement is way to fast to be able to do that without moving the screen. and that scan gives you nothing.
EPT
