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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 13:49 Spades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote:
during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
tl;dr: hacks Pretty sad. I guess this is what it feels like when the world is out to get you. I convinced them to let you in the house, and you would go so far to make something up like that, pretty fucked up man.
Make something up? He states your rank/win rate in season 5 and the drastic improvement to rank/win rate in season 6. That's not a lie. That's science.
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On June 05 2012 13:58 willz22912 wrote:
2nd game they went over was on Antiga. The army movements by Spade in the middle look very suspicious when comparing the actual info Spades had from his vision. He had no marines out on the sides to confirm army movement, but left the xel-naga in the middle to directly block theognis when he was moving down the bottom side. Later he sends a single marine to confirm that theognis was moving around the top side but he was already moving at that point. This game also displays the whole camera thing, you can see Spades army moving on the minimap to attack theognis [b] but the camera on Spades fpview was still on his rally in between his natural/3rd. So he was moving his army to attack without even looking, and using the minimap only? That seems far fetched to my eyes.
This part was what completely sold me.
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On June 05 2012 13:56 Trict wrote:
gg another career completely destroyed by this community, I'm ashamed to even be apart of this community. This isn't the right way to handle this.
If it is true, that is actually is the right way to handle this. If it isn't true, it still the right way to handle this, as the truth will come out.
I am not that old, but older than most of Team Liquid it seems, and worked enough jobs to see all the garbage politics. The idea that people can speak openly, honestly, and freely allows the truth to come out the quickest, and exposes those who lie or cheat rather than doing things behind the scenes where backroom deals exist to protect those who are dishonest. In this way, this kind of discussion actually prevents people from being dishonest, because their chances of being exposed are so high. And that is an amazing thing, because in many places in life politics hides the liars and cheaters, burying them so deeply beneath muddy waters, that you'll never find out the truth because you can't see through the water. In fact, it makes me believe that humanity is hopeless, because when you realize how destructive politics can be, then think that governments are run this way... it is just really sad.
But it isn't happening here, and that is amazing.
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On June 05 2012 13:54 Spades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:53 McFeser wrote:On June 05 2012 13:49 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote:
during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
tl;dr: hacks Pretty sad. I guess this is what it feels like when the world is out to get you. I convinced them to let you in the house, and you would go so far to make something up like that, pretty fucked up man. Why would he make something up like this? Your comment reeks of someone who is a compulsive liar, which would make sense given the current accusations. Sad this happening and I hope in the end that it is not true - but if it is you can still turn it around. After several years of good community service. I dont know, why did they make up nonsense in a IPL video to publicly slander me?
Nobody is out to get you. I'm competitive too, and I know the frustration and wanting to be the best and how easy it would be to hack and if I hacked how I could beat even the top players and how awesome it would be to get that recognition.
But, if I was in your situation, I'd just confess. You'd gain back respect. Sure, there will be consequences, but surely this is better than being excluded/pushed away by every top gamer for the rest of SC2?
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On June 05 2012 13:55 Achilles17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:52 Risen wrote:On June 05 2012 13:46 Crowned wrote:IMO: And people have previously stated this in the thread, the strongest piece of evidence I find in all this mess is the fact that in a 7 game series, Spades never once looks at the fog of war UNLESS he's actually clicking in it (which disables the camera lock? If I understand this correctly). However, when watching his ladder games/streamed games he watches the fog of war quite a lot before even clicking there. How you all of a sudden start playing (seemingly) by using the minimap only, and the only time you ever are in the fog of war is if you're right clicking in it, when you on ladder or when on stream constantly check the Fog of war, is just too weird for me.
Nobody can even provide a counter argument to this, so until one of you neigh sayers can explain this, Spades was map hacking. Because you can't explain this... hacking! That's not a sound argument buddy. It's fine if that's enough to convince you, but no need to cover your ears and scream LALALA in the thread. Just don't post. No, because his mechanics/camera movements are drastically different in the bo7 series and then in all the games he released. When you do something for hundreds upon thousands of hours over the course of 2 years you form habits. You don't change those habits on a whim just for a bo7 series.
Then why didn't he say all of that instead of just harping on that one thing? Was I replying to you? No I fuckin wasn't. So why don't you PM Crowned and have him reply to me with those words. Unless you're his alt account? I don't think you are, so how does my post have ANYTHING to do with you?
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On June 05 2012 13:49 Spades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote:
during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
tl;dr: hacks Pretty sad. I guess this is what it feels like when the world is out to get you. I convinced them to let you in the house, and you would go so far to make something up like that, pretty fucked up man.
I like how instead of trying to explain your incredible win-loss record, or explaining how you actually didn't spend that much time playing LoL/CS/Poker, you went with the most generic response to any accusation, only to prove how clueless you are at dealing with this situation.
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On June 05 2012 13:58 willz22912 wrote:
For those that continue to doubt after watching Catz's stream, don't forget that they also went over other games of Spades, not just the ones vs Lucifron.
For me personally, what convinced me was the games against QxGtheognis, when they went over the little examples (blindly going 1/1/1 without any map vision and going medivac first) -> sieging immediately after moving a few steps even though you have no vision of any army on the high ground (with a viking as well) on cloud kingdom.
2nd game they went over was on Antiga. The army movements by Spade in the middle look very suspicious when comparing the actual info Spades had from his vision. He had no marines out on the sides to confirm army movement, but left the xel-naga in the middle to directly block theognis when he was moving down the bottom side. Later he sends a single marine to confirm that theognis was moving around the top side but he was already moving at that point. This game also displays the whole camera thing, you can see Spades army moving on the minimap to attack theognis [b] but the camera on Spades fpview was still on his rally in between his natural/3rd. So he was moving his army to attack without even looking, and using the minimap only? That seems far fetched to my eyes.
This needs more attention paid to it. People are overlooking a lot facts and sticking on 2 specific things when this was at least an hour long picking apart several things in several games.
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On June 05 2012 13:53 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:47 TedJustice wrote:
The other piece of evidence, besides the magic scans, which they kind of glossed over in the stream, was him moving his army without it being hotkeyed or selected at one point, while his screen was frozen. I'm going to repeat this again, because it seems to have been completely ignored 3 times now. Everyone is harping on the "magic scan" thing which is still in question, when the hard evidence is right here in front of your face.
I beleive this was in the game of him vs theognis on antiga shipyard... where can we get the replay so we can verify this firsthand?
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The worst part about all of this is it seems people involved in the pro scene have known about quite a bit of this stuff long before this post was made today.
Too much hush hush among the pro players, they know alot more then they are willing too share, and if they are too scared to bring it too public attention then it must not be a good thing.
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On June 05 2012 13:53 polyphonyEX wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote:
during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
tl;dr: hacks giX laying down the pain. This is more than fishy. It's lobster.
Not just lobster, it smells like squid left out under the sun for 1 week.
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On June 05 2012 13:56 Trict wrote:
gg another career completely destroyed by this community, I'm ashamed to even be apart of this community. This isn't the right way to handle this.
You should say this only when he is confirmed innocent. And at the moment, there are more and more highly suspicious evidence.
The fact that he has a past, what his ex team members/coworkers have said, his answers to some questions and the evidence provided tell me that he does in fact hack
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On June 05 2012 13:55 zmansman17 wrote:Note here is a viewer from TL who posted a video about the "magic" scan. Magic ScanIt would appear that such a magic scan is possible.
at first i was like wtf? then had a good laugh. Anyways I'm pretty sure spades was hacking vs luci at least
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Not a much to talk about here anymore. He wont be playing in any SC2 related tournament ever again.
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United States10774 Posts
Heh, I am a firm believer in innocent until proven guilty when it comes to things like this, especially when a person plays this game for a living and wants to make a career out of it. I wanted to remain unbiased and objective, but the fact that Spades has lied to our faces once - pretty using the same self-victimizing tactics - when we were all on the same BW team makes it more difficult than otherwise. Spades, I do hope you didn't do this, but just make sure to exercise careful judgement for how you go about this.
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On June 05 2012 14:00 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:55 Achilles17 wrote:On June 05 2012 13:52 Risen wrote:On June 05 2012 13:46 Crowned wrote:IMO: And people have previously stated this in the thread, the strongest piece of evidence I find in all this mess is the fact that in a 7 game series, Spades never once looks at the fog of war UNLESS he's actually clicking in it (which disables the camera lock? If I understand this correctly). However, when watching his ladder games/streamed games he watches the fog of war quite a lot before even clicking there. How you all of a sudden start playing (seemingly) by using the minimap only, and the only time you ever are in the fog of war is if you're right clicking in it, when you on ladder or when on stream constantly check the Fog of war, is just too weird for me.
Nobody can even provide a counter argument to this, so until one of you neigh sayers can explain this, Spades was map hacking. Because you can't explain this... hacking! That's not a sound argument buddy. It's fine if that's enough to convince you, but no need to cover your ears and scream LALALA in the thread. Just don't post. No, because his mechanics/camera movements are drastically different in the bo7 series and then in all the games he released. When you do something for hundreds upon thousands of hours over the course of 2 years you form habits. You don't change those habits on a whim just for a bo7 series. Then why didn't he say all of that instead of just harping on that one thing? Was I replying to you? No I fuckin wasn't. So why don't you PM Crowned and have him reply to me with those words. Unless you're his alt account? I don't think you are, so how does my post have ANYTHING to do with you?
Weren't you posting earlier about me getting above 1000 posts whilst being worthless scum posting rubbish.. I'm glad I was being outed for my terrible posting by someone with such a higher sophistication to their posts!
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On June 05 2012 13:56 Trict wrote:
gg another career completely destroyed by this community, I'm ashamed to even be apart of this community. This isn't the right way to handle this.
Ok Mr. CommunityVoiceOfReason, how should we handle this?
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On June 05 2012 14:00 gzo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:49 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote:
during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
tl;dr: hacks Pretty sad. I guess this is what it feels like when the world is out to get you. I convinced them to let you in the house, and you would go so far to make something up like that, pretty fucked up man. I like how instead of trying to explain your incredible win-loss record, or explaining how you actually didn't spend that much time playing LoL/CS/Poker, you went with the most generic response to any accusation, only to prove how clueless you are at dealing with this situation.
People need to stop judging spades on his responses in this thread. Imagine if you were just accused of something as serious as this. Either you panic that you've been found out and your career is ruined, or you panic that there's this lie out there about you and you can't prove otherwise. Either way your responses will not be well thought out and they will likely not make a lot of sense.
Judge the games provided as evidence, not what a man with a huge target painted on his chest is saying to you.
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On June 05 2012 13:56 Trict wrote:
gg another career completely destroyed by this community, I'm ashamed to even be apart of this community. This isn't the right way to handle this.
This may not be the right way, BUT cheating should not be tolerated and the fact that more evidence piles up against Spades is pretty damning. Also we are learning that cheating is apparently much more widespread than we first thought
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Is there going to be a thread about the Korean Stream Cheating?
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EPT
