07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here
10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.
08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open.
Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims.
(also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here)
On June 05 2012 13:20 sureup wrote: I tested the magic scan, and yes you cannot see the center!
This is very important to at least show that this was not factual evidence against Spades. and edit: I tested it myself, you can click anywhere on like the top 15% of ur screen and the center of the scan goes above to the next screen... so you have quite a bit of space to have this happen.
The OP of the video did this while stationary on his own screen. Try scrolling up and scanning the edge while doing so, like Spades did. Regardless, the fact remains that Spades screen locked as he was scrolling into the fog of war and had a perfect scan on the enemy army while his screen was locked at the edge. He doesn't do this in his replays provided or his VODs, and neither do pros...
The problem with this is, we don't know if his camera locked or if he literally just stopped scrolling up. We don't know his mouse movements so you can't really say either way since his camera does stop and then he goes back to looking at his army.
To me, the magic scans don't matter either way. They're kinda funny, but people should be focusing more on the actual skill and mindset that GM players, and moreover someone who has had 70% in GM, have when they're playing their games. None of his actions make any sense. It's that simple :l
On June 05 2012 13:44 magnaflow wrote: What really worries me is what is going on behind the scenes? I get the feeling that there is alot of shit going on in the pro scene yet none of the pro's are willing to talk about it because it could hamper thier own career.
What the fuck is going on???
That's my fear as well. Mirhi's post suggests that there is a lot of shady stuff that had been going on. But if you are heavily involved in eSports, you probably won't reveal anything that could damage the scene and end up hurting yourself.
For myself, the rumors that stream-cheating is common in the Korean pro-houses is incredibly alarming. I think of stream-cheaters, I think of scum like Deezer, not the world's best Korean progamers. I'm crossing my fingers that this isn't true, and this is all just a horrible dream of relevations.
On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote: during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
tl;dr: hacks
Pretty sad. I guess this is what it feels like when the world is out to get you. I convinced them to let you in the house, and you would go so far to make something up like that, pretty fucked up man.
On June 05 2012 13:47 TedJustice wrote: The other piece of evidence, besides the magic scans, which they kind of glossed over in the stream, was him moving his army without it being hotkeyed or selected at one point, while his screen was frozen.
Did anyone else read this? Can this be confirmed? This is HUGE.
On June 05 2012 13:19 TSBspartacus wrote: cArn you admitted yourself you haven't watched all the games. The fact is you're defending a guy who didn't once have his camera into the fog of war in any of the replays provided, but scanned and moved armies and units with accuracy. Analyse the replays, pull your head out of your arse and then come back with your opinion. The point you seem to not understand is that map-hacks have this "screen-lock" which when you look into the fog of war, the camera will lock on the position you were looking. This is what Catz and co. have been trying to explain, and you can't see past it due to your own bias.
If what have been said about how hacks work is really true then yes, the camera locks and fog of war stuff is suspicious.
But the biggest thing that bothered me is how they went about proving it, using events in the game that had nothing to do with maphacking but just basic reasoning. I can understand that after watching the replays and those camera locks something looks fishy, but then only use that and don't try to pile up a bunch of facts that aren't relevant.
The problem is you are looking at each event as a singular event, it is when all of the things add up that it becomes more likely that it was due to map hacking. Together as a whole they do start becoming relevant.
On June 05 2012 13:43 Gheed wrote: I'm still not entirely convinced. I just don't understand the motive. Why, of all things to maphack in, would he maphack in a showmatch presented in part by his own team for absolutely no prize money? Is there any evidence of him hacking in any other tournaments? Who the hell posted this thread anyway?
I really fucking hate the way we've gone about doing this. Maybe he does hack, but I'm not sure the ends justify the means. If what people are saying is true, there are tons of cheaters in the pro scene, and I certainly don't want a shitstorm for every single one of them.
What? Why not? You don't mind that any online tournament you ever watch could be completely illegitimate?
On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote: during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
On June 05 2012 13:43 Gheed wrote: I'm still not entirely convinced. I just don't understand the motive. Why, of all things to maphack in, would he maphack in a showmatch presented in part by his own team for absolutely no prize money? Is there any evidence of him hacking in any other tournaments? Who the hell posted this thread anyway?
I really fucking hate the way we've gone about doing this. Maybe he does hack, but I'm not sure the ends justify the means. If what people are saying is true, there are tons of cheaters in the pro scene, and I certainly don't want a shitstorm for every single one of them.
The motive is he is a lesser known/Mid tier NA player coming up against the hottest European Terran player at the moment. If he took him down, that's going to give him more attention, as well as a nice bit of prize money.
Conspiracy theory: Spades is actually the OP, and posted this to boost his popularity because he knew his legitimate esports career was flagging and that there's no 100% way to prove that he hacks.
On June 05 2012 13:43 Gheed wrote: I'm still not entirely convinced. I just don't understand the motive. Why, of all things to maphack in, would he maphack in a showmatch presented in part by his own team for absolutely no prize money? Is there any evidence of him hacking in any other tournaments? Who the hell posted this thread anyway?
I really fucking hate the way we've gone about doing this. Maybe he does hack, but I'm not sure the ends justify the means. If what people are saying is true, there are tons of cheaters in the pro scene, and I certainly don't want a shitstorm for every single one of them.
Same reason minor league ballplayers were all taking steroids in the 90s. The chance to make it big.
I agree with you about the methodology here though. This feels like a mob and it's shitty. There's no established legal system here, and maybe it's time we build one.
That being said, you don't want it to be a baseball situation where everyone cheats because if they don't then they'll just lose all the time.
On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote: during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
tl;dr: hacks
Great information. It gives new insight.
Can you confirm any bits your former manager said about Artist and Leenock? Did Artist cheat too? Did you see Leenock doing anything wrong?
For me, Spades is a maphacker.. but I am more worried about what RgN manager said. You just don't say that kind of things on internet accusing a lot of people;;
On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote: during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
tl;dr: hacks
this kinda really leaves no doubt in my mind that spades cheated in one form or other
On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote: during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
tl;dr: hacks
Very sad. It's comments like these that surface right before concrete proof arises.
It's funny how the evidence just keeps pouring in. It's almost as if Spades hacks! I can't believe other people would say different, especially if they watched Catz's stream.
On June 05 2012 13:38 FakeDeath wrote: Yup pretty sure Spades career is down the drain now. The " magic scan " ,sending your scv and not scouting the enemy tech with your scv is already pretty telling he was hacking. No doubt the part where he siege all his tanks at the edge of his natutal with 0 map vision.( Why the heck would you siege your all your tanks at the edge of your natural WTF). I guess he is really " lucky " encountering Lucifer army at the side at Entombed Valley. Spades was hacking.
This is the strongest piece of evidence, not the magic scan.
Did you actually load up and watch the replay? He left a unit in the path to spot, which he saw on the minimap that it was killed. So very reasonable to assume counter is coming from that side, so he sieged up at his natural.
Really, check replays yourselves. A lot of this "evidence" was exaggerated and even false. I fear the mob mentality is taking over.
IMO: And people have previously stated this in the thread, the strongest piece of evidence I find in all this mess is the fact that in a 7 game series, Spades never once looks at the fog of war UNLESS he's actually clicking in it (which disables the camera lock? If I understand this correctly). However, when watching his ladder games/streamed games he watches the fog of war quite a lot before even clicking there. How you all of a sudden start playing (seemingly) by using the minimap only, and the only time you ever are in the fog of war is if you're right clicking in it, when you on ladder or when on stream constantly check the Fog of war, is just too weird for me.
Nobody can even provide a counter argument to this, so until one of you neigh sayers can explain this, Spades was map hacking.
Because you can't explain this... hacking! That's not a sound argument buddy. It's fine if that's enough to convince you, but no need to cover your ears and scream LALALA in the thread. Just don't post.
On June 05 2012 13:46 giX wrote: during my time at the Reign house, I played a good amount of games with Spades, and observed him playing Artist (Korean terran) many times as well. The results were extremely one sided for their TVT's (I would estimate 90%+ winratio in favor of artist in the inhouse games vs him) Spades said frequently that he could not win TvT, and had frequent outbursts of frustration when playing against Artist.
As the weeks passed, it seemed spades motivation to play decreased more and more. During this time he would spend a lot of time playing LoL, CS, and Poker. while myself and Artist would compete in Playhem and play on the Korean ladder (artist won 16 playhems while he was in the house, what a boss) practice became more and more sparse between us, he consequentially dropped out of GM due to lack of play (this was season 5, where he ended the season rank 36 in his masters league) after a few weeks of stagnation, he announced he was returning back to Florida, and left just days after announcing this to frank and the rest of us.
You can Imagine how surprised I was when season 6 opened, and he achieved a staggering 257-84 win ratio, putting him at rank 1 GM with a 75.37% winrate, comparable to the best NA terrans such as: EGdemuslim: 280-79 (77.99%) Select: 274-51 (84.31%) EGthorzain: 141-40 (77.90%) this drastic turnaround seemed very fish, given his previous history and the stream cheating that I witnessed in the Reign house. but Given that I was still playing full time and trying to improve myself, I didn't give it a second thought.
Now that all of this has surfaced, I am fairly certain that in the process of wanting to prove himself and break out from the mid tier that so many of us are seemingly stuck, he used underhanded methods to take shortcuts and achieve success that otherwise would have taken a lot of hard work and determination.
tl;dr: hacks
Pretty sad. I guess this is what it feels like when the world is out to get you. I convinced them to let you in the house, and you would go so far to make something up like that, pretty fucked up man.
LOL all your replies just make you seem more and more guilty. playing the victim trying to get pity. why not address all the claims? you can start with not watching the vision of your scv until after it leaves the base. why not check what buildings or add-ons are being built?
All I can say is good luck to you, people will always want blood and look for what they want to see. Coming from a counter strike background this sort of thing happened far to often to good players. You'd be surprised if you watch your own replays how you can make yourself look very dodgy.
Sure if you play well at MLG and continue to show good games on the ladder while streaming it'll blow over.
On June 05 2012 13:43 Gheed wrote: I'm still not entirely convinced. I just don't understand the motive. Why, of all things to maphack in, would he maphack in a showmatch presented in part by his own team for absolutely no prize money? Is there any evidence of him hacking in any other tournaments? Who the hell posted this thread anyway?
I really fucking hate the way we've gone about doing this. Maybe he does hack, but I'm not sure the ends justify the means. If what people are saying is true, there are tons of cheaters in the pro scene, and I certainly don't want a shitstorm for every single one of them.
What? Why not? You don't mind that any online tournament you ever watch could be completely illegitimate?
Of course I don't want hacking in SC2, but crowd sourcing who hacks or not is the worst way to go about it.
IMO: And people have previously stated this in the thread, the strongest piece of evidence I find in all this mess is the fact that in a 7 game series, Spades never once looks at the fog of war UNLESS he's actually clicking in it (which disables the camera lock? If I understand this correctly). However, when watching his ladder games/streamed games he watches the fog of war quite a lot before even clicking there. How you all of a sudden start playing (seemingly) by using the minimap only, and the only time you ever are in the fog of war is if you're right clicking in it, when you on ladder or when on stream constantly check the Fog of war, is just too weird for me.
Still waiting for anyone (especially Spades) to provide a counter argument to this and this alone.
EPT
