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On May 12 2012 06:47 BrandFilt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:06 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:04 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 05:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:46 Tippecanoe wrote:Implying hes the only pro to say that protoss was a bit too strong. Demuslim talked about it on his stream for about 5-10 minutes or so and he had really good points with real evidence. He said that Colossus tech is cheap compared to the Vikings you had to get. He stated that for 2 Colossi you need about 8 Vikings and that eats too much into your Bio. 8 Vikings = 600 Gas. 2 Colossi = 800 Gas, yeah so cheap.... you obviously need the range upgrade, or you will not force Vikings. After I heard him say that 2 Colossi cost less Gas then 6-8 Vikings I shut down the stream in anger. So I could not care less about his opinion, that is like IdrA saying Vortex is imbalanced while he INTENTIONALLY moves his entire army into one only to prove his point instead of having spread his units in the first place. collossi cost 300/200 though. sorry, but lol. yes but you need robbotics bay and the range upgrade 200 gas each, I do not count the starport that you have anyway same as Robo itself sorry but think. Wow, really terrible logic. Have you even considered that vikings need seperate upgrades? Can you even comprehend how much it will cost to get my vikings to 3-3 so they can go up against your 3-3 army? I can't, so I just have to do with 3-0 vikings to fight an army with 3 attack and 3 armor. Now how's that for fair? I think Protoss have the better end whatever a robotics bay and/or what thermal lance costs. A collosi switch can only be benefitial since: 1. Vikings suck. Period. They don't share upgrades with your main army and they are no good in a stratight up fight except for dealing with collosi. 2. They take up your starport so you can't make medivacs. 3. It will kill you if you are not prepared or at the very least cripple you. I can't see why a protoss would not go collosi but I can see several reason why Terran really wouldn't want to get vikings if it weren't for the fact that we are forced to make them in order to survive the ultimate 1-a unit.
This is just getting redicilous so I will leave.
But just so you know I can make statements like yours too.
Get 2 Ravens, get 4 Vikings, get a ton of Banshees.
Snipe the Observers and win.
Honestly you do not think things through at all so I won't either.
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On May 12 2012 06:49 How2getMaster wrote:Well I think he´s right with TvP. But I also think Zerg is way stronger than Protoss and Terran. Hope Flashs words have impact  Greetings. Yea. Like all the results in pro play show or what?
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Flash is the Greatest of all time, that's for sure. I can't wait to see what he does in the SCII world. Although, he hasn't really done too much to complain about balance...then again, who really is gonna argue with him?
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I don't think Flash is serious about that imbalance comment, and even if he is, he doesn't have enough experience to make that judgement yet.
Nonetheless, I agree with Protoss being imbalanced, but I could say the same thing with Terran and Zerg. Each race has their own imbalance and most people are quick to say that the race they aren't playing are always "imba" or "OP".
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On May 12 2012 06:40 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:29 RazorHedge wrote:On May 12 2012 06:21 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:18 Skaminator wrote:On May 12 2012 06:09 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:07 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 06:05 Bayyne wrote:On May 12 2012 06:04 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 05:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:46 Tippecanoe wrote:
[quote]
Implying hes the only pro to say that protoss was a bit too strong. Demuslim talked about it on his stream for about 5-10 minutes or so and he had really good points with real evidence. He said that Colossus tech is cheap compared to the Vikings you had to get. He stated that for 2 Colossi you need about 8 Vikings and that eats too much into your Bio. 8 Vikings = 600 Gas. 2 Colossi = 800 Gas, yeah so cheap.... you obviously need the range upgrade, or you will not force Vikings. After I heard him say that 2 Colossi cost less Gas then 6-8 Vikings I shut down the stream in anger. So I could not care less about his opinion, that is like IdrA saying Vortex is imbalanced while he INTENTIONALLY moves his entire army into one only to prove his point instead of having spread his units in the first place. collossi cost 300/200 though. sorry, but lol. He's factoring in the Thermal Lance upgrade. it's 200 200, so 2 collossi with thermal lance still arent 800. I love your ignorance you still need the robotics bay. Guess the Gas cost, Guess it. Or do you think every Protoss has it anyway because of the Obvserver upgrades? Well then Observers are pretty freaking expensive for the fact that every decent player can see them and kill them with one scan. 1 Broodlord 850 gas yes? completely out of context. He was talking about a very specific example, 2 Colossi vs Bio/Vikings which actually is a pretty common situation. I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything here,just trying to understand, but unless you're 4-gating it's pretty safe to assume EVERY protoss gets at least 1 robo, so you can substract that to the equation. Also, if the Viking/Colossus Ratio is 4 to 1. That requires 2 reactored starports te let's say.. have "equivalent" production. Not completely necessary though. But if you are constantly producing Colos, 2 SP comes by default. You are also forgetting +1 air attack, (At least, and it does count since you are considering thermal lance) So, again, not trying to pick a fight, but I do think the argument to analyze here is a different one, since we can safely assume the costs for that tech are pretty much alike. Is how cost effective are the units for that cost? My pick goes for the colos. P.S: I'm just stating simple scenarios and using basic math, not implying OPness or w/e. Math alone is often not the answer though. First of all, one reactored Starport produces 4 Vikings in 82 seconds, one Colossus takes 75seconds. The Range Upgrade takes 140 seconds. So no, you do not need 2. Second I did not count the Robo or the Starport since they have already been constructed for other purpose (Immortals/observers and Medivacs) Plus: You either need a 4 to 1 Ratio (personal sidenote: I would not go over 12 Vikings) Or an Upgrade. 8 unupgraded Vikings deal with 2 Colossi pretty well and the +1 attack would not change a whole lot. 8 Vikings = 160 damage per shot, so they kill Colossi with 2.2 shots, with +1 it is 176, still not requires more than 2 shots.´ 12-16 Vikings with +1 should be good enough vs almost any number of Colossi since Protoss will not have enough Stalkers to shoot your Vikings while your Bio simply runs from the Colossi taking no damage. So I still do not see the argument. vs 4 Colossi 12 Vikings with +1 should be sufficent.
without 2 starports you'll basically be stuck with 2 medivacs forever, which sucks against warpgated zealots (and warpgates in general)
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On May 12 2012 02:21 bonifaceviii wrote:
You can chill at my condo in Canada, Flash. The wife won't mind.
NO!! If he comes to Canada he is staying with me !! -_-
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On May 12 2012 06:54 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:40 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:29 RazorHedge wrote:On May 12 2012 06:21 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:18 Skaminator wrote:On May 12 2012 06:09 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:07 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 06:05 Bayyne wrote:On May 12 2012 06:04 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 05:56 rEalGuapo wrote:
[quote]
He said that Colossus tech is cheap compared to the Vikings you had to get.
He stated that for 2 Colossi you need about 8 Vikings and that eats too much into your Bio.
8 Vikings = 600 Gas.
2 Colossi = 800 Gas, yeah so cheap.... you obviously need the range upgrade, or you will not force Vikings.
After I heard him say that 2 Colossi cost less Gas then 6-8 Vikings I shut down the stream in anger.
So I could not care less about his opinion, that is like IdrA saying Vortex is imbalanced while he INTENTIONALLY moves his entire army into one only to prove his point instead of having spread his units in the first place.
collossi cost 300/200 though. sorry, but lol. He's factoring in the Thermal Lance upgrade. it's 200 200, so 2 collossi with thermal lance still arent 800. I love your ignorance you still need the robotics bay. Guess the Gas cost, Guess it. Or do you think every Protoss has it anyway because of the Obvserver upgrades? Well then Observers are pretty freaking expensive for the fact that every decent player can see them and kill them with one scan. 1 Broodlord 850 gas yes? completely out of context. He was talking about a very specific example, 2 Colossi vs Bio/Vikings which actually is a pretty common situation. I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything here,just trying to understand, but unless you're 4-gating it's pretty safe to assume EVERY protoss gets at least 1 robo, so you can substract that to the equation. Also, if the Viking/Colossus Ratio is 4 to 1. That requires 2 reactored starports te let's say.. have "equivalent" production. Not completely necessary though. But if you are constantly producing Colos, 2 SP comes by default. You are also forgetting +1 air attack, (At least, and it does count since you are considering thermal lance) So, again, not trying to pick a fight, but I do think the argument to analyze here is a different one, since we can safely assume the costs for that tech are pretty much alike. Is how cost effective are the units for that cost? My pick goes for the colos. P.S: I'm just stating simple scenarios and using basic math, not implying OPness or w/e. Math alone is often not the answer though. First of all, one reactored Starport produces 4 Vikings in 82 seconds, one Colossus takes 75seconds. The Range Upgrade takes 140 seconds. So no, you do not need 2. Second I did not count the Robo or the Starport since they have already been constructed for other purpose (Immortals/observers and Medivacs) Plus: You either need a 4 to 1 Ratio (personal sidenote: I would not go over 12 Vikings) Or an Upgrade. 8 unupgraded Vikings deal with 2 Colossi pretty well and the +1 attack would not change a whole lot. 8 Vikings = 160 damage per shot, so they kill Colossi with 2.2 shots, with +1 it is 176, still not requires more than 2 shots.´ 12-16 Vikings with +1 should be good enough vs almost any number of Colossi since Protoss will not have enough Stalkers to shoot your Vikings while your Bio simply runs from the Colossi taking no damage. So I still do not see the argument. vs 4 Colossi 12 Vikings with +1 should be sufficent. without 2 starports you'll basically be stuck with 2 medivacs forever, which sucks against warpgated zealots
If my Colossi hit you so fast you could only get out 2 Medivacs I should be long dead before my Colossi range ever finishes.
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I never followed sc1 and don't know much about Flash, but balance whining as a supposed sc1 legend is pretty lame.
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On May 12 2012 06:51 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:47 BrandFilt wrote:On May 12 2012 06:06 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:04 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 05:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:46 Tippecanoe wrote:Implying hes the only pro to say that protoss was a bit too strong. Demuslim talked about it on his stream for about 5-10 minutes or so and he had really good points with real evidence. He said that Colossus tech is cheap compared to the Vikings you had to get. He stated that for 2 Colossi you need about 8 Vikings and that eats too much into your Bio. 8 Vikings = 600 Gas. 2 Colossi = 800 Gas, yeah so cheap.... you obviously need the range upgrade, or you will not force Vikings. After I heard him say that 2 Colossi cost less Gas then 6-8 Vikings I shut down the stream in anger. So I could not care less about his opinion, that is like IdrA saying Vortex is imbalanced while he INTENTIONALLY moves his entire army into one only to prove his point instead of having spread his units in the first place. collossi cost 300/200 though. sorry, but lol. yes but you need robbotics bay and the range upgrade 200 gas each, I do not count the starport that you have anyway same as Robo itself sorry but think. Wow, really terrible logic. Have you even considered that vikings need seperate upgrades? Can you even comprehend how much it will cost to get my vikings to 3-3 so they can go up against your 3-3 army? I can't, so I just have to do with 3-0 vikings to fight an army with 3 attack and 3 armor. Now how's that for fair? I think Protoss have the better end whatever a robotics bay and/or what thermal lance costs. A collosi switch can only be benefitial since: 1. Vikings suck. Period. They don't share upgrades with your main army and they are no good in a stratight up fight except for dealing with collosi. 2. They take up your starport so you can't make medivacs. 3. It will kill you if you are not prepared or at the very least cripple you. I can't see why a protoss would not go collosi but I can see several reason why Terran really wouldn't want to get vikings if it weren't for the fact that we are forced to make them in order to survive the ultimate 1-a unit. This is just getting redicilous so I will leave. But just so you know I can make statements like yours too. Get 2 Ravens, get 4 Vikings, get a ton of Banshees. Snipe the Observers and win. Honestly you do not think things through at all so I won't either.
Such a lame answer.
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I heard Bisu will go Terran.
WELCOME TO HELL :D
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On May 12 2012 06:49 Eee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:30 Skaminator wrote:On May 12 2012 06:20 Roxor9999 wrote:On May 12 2012 06:15 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 06:09 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:07 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 06:05 Bayyne wrote:On May 12 2012 06:04 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 05:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:46 Tippecanoe wrote:
[quote]
Implying hes the only pro to say that protoss was a bit too strong. Demuslim talked about it on his stream for about 5-10 minutes or so and he had really good points with real evidence. He said that Colossus tech is cheap compared to the Vikings you had to get. He stated that for 2 Colossi you need about 8 Vikings and that eats too much into your Bio. 8 Vikings = 600 Gas. 2 Colossi = 800 Gas, yeah so cheap.... you obviously need the range upgrade, or you will not force Vikings. After I heard him say that 2 Colossi cost less Gas then 6-8 Vikings I shut down the stream in anger. So I could not care less about his opinion, that is like IdrA saying Vortex is imbalanced while he INTENTIONALLY moves his entire army into one only to prove his point instead of having spread his units in the first place. collossi cost 300/200 though. sorry, but lol. He's factoring in the Thermal Lance upgrade. it's 200 200, so 2 collossi with thermal lance still arent 800. I love your ignorance you still need the robotics bay. Guess the Gas cost, Guess it. Or do you think every Protoss has it anyway because of the Obvserver upgrades? Well then Observers are pretty freaking expensive for the fact that every decent player can see them and kill them with one scan. like i said. for vikings you need a second starport and additional upgrades. so please consider these costs too. 200 150 for the starport 525 525 for level3 attack upgrades. Well then the colossus cost Colossus= 300 200 3/3/3 upgrades= 1575 1575 Extended Thermal Lance= 200 200 Robotics Bay= 200 200 Robotic Facility=200 100 In total: 2475 minerals 2275 gas 1 Broodlord 200 spawning pool 150 100 lair infestation pit 100 100 hive 200 150 spire 200 200 greater spire 100 150 Corruptor 150 100 Brood lord morph 150 150 3/3 air 3/3 land upgrades 525 525 675 675 450 450 675 675 3575 minerals 3175 gas Spawning Pool is 250 minerals since you sacrifice a drone for it as well, and infestation pit and spire is also 150 and 250.
I think you have to count to lost mining time in too. + all the drones/hatcherys that were made.
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On May 12 2012 06:55 BrandFilt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:51 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:47 BrandFilt wrote:On May 12 2012 06:06 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:04 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 05:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:46 Tippecanoe wrote:Implying hes the only pro to say that protoss was a bit too strong. Demuslim talked about it on his stream for about 5-10 minutes or so and he had really good points with real evidence. He said that Colossus tech is cheap compared to the Vikings you had to get. He stated that for 2 Colossi you need about 8 Vikings and that eats too much into your Bio. 8 Vikings = 600 Gas. 2 Colossi = 800 Gas, yeah so cheap.... you obviously need the range upgrade, or you will not force Vikings. After I heard him say that 2 Colossi cost less Gas then 6-8 Vikings I shut down the stream in anger. So I could not care less about his opinion, that is like IdrA saying Vortex is imbalanced while he INTENTIONALLY moves his entire army into one only to prove his point instead of having spread his units in the first place. collossi cost 300/200 though. sorry, but lol. yes but you need robbotics bay and the range upgrade 200 gas each, I do not count the starport that you have anyway same as Robo itself sorry but think. Wow, really terrible logic. Have you even considered that vikings need seperate upgrades? Can you even comprehend how much it will cost to get my vikings to 3-3 so they can go up against your 3-3 army? I can't, so I just have to do with 3-0 vikings to fight an army with 3 attack and 3 armor. Now how's that for fair? I think Protoss have the better end whatever a robotics bay and/or what thermal lance costs. A collosi switch can only be benefitial since: 1. Vikings suck. Period. They don't share upgrades with your main army and they are no good in a stratight up fight except for dealing with collosi. 2. They take up your starport so you can't make medivacs. 3. It will kill you if you are not prepared or at the very least cripple you. I can't see why a protoss would not go collosi but I can see several reason why Terran really wouldn't want to get vikings if it weren't for the fact that we are forced to make them in order to survive the ultimate 1-a unit. This is just getting redicilous so I will leave. But just so you know I can make statements like yours too. Get 2 Ravens, get 4 Vikings, get a ton of Banshees. Snipe the Observers and win. Honestly you do not think things through at all so I won't either. Such a lame answer.
Fair enough.
Here is your statement:
Vikings SUCK vs Protoss except vs Colossi.
A unit that can only attack 5 different units of one race sucks vs said race when they do not build any of those 5 units.
Since Void Rays, Phoenix, Carrier and Mothership are useless vs Terran. you can only get 1 of those 5 Units being Colossi
Congratz for your enlightenment.
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On May 12 2012 06:47 BrandFilt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:06 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:04 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 05:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:46 Tippecanoe wrote:Implying hes the only pro to say that protoss was a bit too strong. Demuslim talked about it on his stream for about 5-10 minutes or so and he had really good points with real evidence. He said that Colossus tech is cheap compared to the Vikings you had to get. He stated that for 2 Colossi you need about 8 Vikings and that eats too much into your Bio. 8 Vikings = 600 Gas. 2 Colossi = 800 Gas, yeah so cheap.... you obviously need the range upgrade, or you will not force Vikings. After I heard him say that 2 Colossi cost less Gas then 6-8 Vikings I shut down the stream in anger. So I could not care less about his opinion, that is like IdrA saying Vortex is imbalanced while he INTENTIONALLY moves his entire army into one only to prove his point instead of having spread his units in the first place. collossi cost 300/200 though. sorry, but lol. yes but you need robbotics bay and the range upgrade 200 gas each, I do not count the starport that you have anyway same as Robo itself sorry but think. Wow, really terrible logic. Have you even considered that vikings need seperate upgrades? Can you even comprehend how much it will cost to get my vikings to 3-3 so they can go up against your 3-3 army? I can't, so I just have to do with 3-0 vikings to fight an army with 3 attack and 3 armor. Now how's that for fair? I think Protoss have the better end whatever a robotics bay and/or what thermal lance costs.
Lol@ 3/3 Viking need. Nobody does that, most people doesn't even get more than +1 attack, and they only do it, if the colossi counts are alot higher than 2.
Furthermore, your bio with 3 armor has all it's hp protected, Toss only his non-shield hp.
Why am I even discuss it with somebody that calls the best Anti-air unit vs heavy armor bad.
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I don't know why everyone is getting their panties in a twist about Flash commenting on balance. Loads of pros do it, Terrans complain about protoss, Nestea and DRG complained about toss a few months ago and every Protoss complained about the 1/1/1 for ages.
Also there's a chance something got lost in translation. I mean whether you think forcefields or warpgates are balanced aside, they are poorly designed and its possible that he was commenting on that.
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Flash just like Boxer and July will become a decent sc2 pro.He will not become bonjwa again that is for sure but I would not be surprised to see him in the upper stages of a GSL.Flash vs Nestea or Jaedong vs MVP are some nice phantasy games.
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On May 12 2012 02:55 Plansix wrote:
Why did zealots just come out of that umbrella?"
Ahaha, laughed out loud at this one.
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On May 12 2012 06:49 Eee wrote: Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:30 Skaminator wrote: On May 12 2012 06:20 Roxor9999 wrote: On May 12 2012 06:15 beg wrote: On May 12 2012 06:09 rEalGuapo wrote: On May 12 2012 06:07 beg wrote: On May 12 2012 06:05 Bayyne wrote: On May 12 2012 06:04 beg wrote: On May 12 2012 05:56 rEalGuapo wrote: On May 12 2012 05:46 Tippecanoe wrote: [quote] Implying hes the only pro to say that protoss was a bit too strong. Demuslim talked about it on his stream for about 5-10 minutes or so and he had really good points with real evidence. He said that Colossus tech is cheap compared to the Vikings you had to get. He stated that for 2 Colossi you need about 8 Vikings and that eats too much into your Bio. 8 Vikings = 600 Gas. 2 Colossi = 800 Gas, yeah so cheap.... you obviously need the range upgrade, or you will not force Vikings. After I heard him say that 2 Colossi cost less Gas then 6-8 Vikings I shut down the stream in anger. So I could not care less about his opinion, that is like IdrA saying Vortex is imbalanced while he INTENTIONALLY moves his entire army into one only to prove his point instead of having spread his units in the first place. collossi cost 300/200 though. sorry, but lol. He's factoring in the Thermal Lance upgrade. it's 200 200, so 2 collossi with thermal lance still arent 800. I love your ignorance you still need the robotics bay. Guess the Gas cost, Guess it. Or do you think every Protoss has it anyway because of the Obvserver upgrades? Well then Observers are pretty freaking expensive for the fact that every decent player can see them and kill them with one scan. like i said. for vikings you need a second starport and additional upgrades. so please consider these costs too. 200 150 for the starport 525 525 for level3 attack upgrades. Well then the colossus cost Colossus= 300 200 3/3/3 upgrades= 1575 1575 Extended Thermal Lance= 200 200 Robotics Bay= 200 200 Robotic Facility=200 100 In total: 2475 minerals 2275 gas 1 Broodlord 200 spawning pool 150 100 lair infestation pit 100 100 hive 200 150 spire 200 200 greater spire 100 150 Corruptor 150 100 Brood lord morph 150 150 3/3 air 3/3 land upgrades 525 525 675 675 450 450 675 675 3575 minerals 3175 gas Spawning Pool is 250 minerals since you sacrifice a drone for it as well, and infestation pit and spire is also 150 and 250. Actually you need to make at least 2 extractors to mine that much gas so that would be another 150 minerals.
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On May 12 2012 06:51 aksfjh wrote:
The amount of Protoss damage control in this topic is astounding. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, and, believe it or not, a lot of people want to know Flash's opinion on balance.
I'm not saying that's wrong or anything but I just feel that the opinion of Flash would mean much more when he has played more than just a few weeks of this game.
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On May 12 2012 06:55 Youtakenocandle wrote:
I never followed sc1 and don't know much about Flash, but balance whining as a supposed sc1 legend is pretty lame.
k
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EPT
