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On May 12 2012 06:26 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:23 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 06:17 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:15 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 06:09 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:07 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 06:05 Bayyne wrote:On May 12 2012 06:04 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 05:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:46 Tippecanoe wrote:
[quote]
Implying hes the only pro to say that protoss was a bit too strong. Demuslim talked about it on his stream for about 5-10 minutes or so and he had really good points with real evidence. He said that Colossus tech is cheap compared to the Vikings you had to get. He stated that for 2 Colossi you need about 8 Vikings and that eats too much into your Bio. 8 Vikings = 600 Gas. 2 Colossi = 800 Gas, yeah so cheap.... you obviously need the range upgrade, or you will not force Vikings. After I heard him say that 2 Colossi cost less Gas then 6-8 Vikings I shut down the stream in anger. So I could not care less about his opinion, that is like IdrA saying Vortex is imbalanced while he INTENTIONALLY moves his entire army into one only to prove his point instead of having spread his units in the first place. collossi cost 300/200 though. sorry, but lol. He's factoring in the Thermal Lance upgrade. it's 200 200, so 2 collossi with thermal lance still arent 800. I love your ignorance you still need the robotics bay. Guess the Gas cost, Guess it. Or do you think every Protoss has it anyway because of the Obvserver upgrades? Well then Observers are pretty freaking expensive for the fact that every decent player can see them and kill them with one scan. like i said. for vikings you need a second starport and additional upgrades. so please consider these costs too. 200 150 for the starport 525 525 for level3 attack upgrades. yeah, you do not do that vs 2 Colossi or you must be pretty stupid, 8 Vikings off of 2 Starports with lvl 3 air upgrades is such an Overkill since you would destroy the Colossi in like 5 seconds instead of 5.5 with the air upgrades : ) okay, but you still need 2 starports. so let's say 2 starports and air level1 upgrade! but seriously, i wouldnt stop at level1 upgrades. protoss can always get more collossi. seems like a reasonable investment. Well that depends very much, and does not apply to the 2 Colossi example. I would not get more than +1 because a tech switch to templars is propably immenent and any more would be wasted. Also a second starport is only required if you scout late or waste Medivacs.
Shows how much you know about Terran.
Terran is the race with the least flexible ways of switching tech, so it's mandatory for us to keep any possible required upgrades up and have anticipated production ready.
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please God switch to protoss.. i would be so happy.
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People need to understand that SC1 was developped to a point that the distance between two bases, and the time that units takes to do that distance, what really important into designing the best strategies. In this regard, gateways is the most retarded thing Blizzard did, destroying the "defender advantage". That's why Flash have difficulties against all-in and think gateways are imba.
For colossus well, they're a retarded units too, everybody knows that.
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"What exactly about Protoss is overpowered?
Everything. Forcefields are OP, gateways are OP too..."
listen to this man!!!!!
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On May 12 2012 06:26 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:23 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 06:17 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:15 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 06:09 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:07 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 06:05 Bayyne wrote:On May 12 2012 06:04 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 05:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:46 Tippecanoe wrote:
[quote]
Implying hes the only pro to say that protoss was a bit too strong. Demuslim talked about it on his stream for about 5-10 minutes or so and he had really good points with real evidence. He said that Colossus tech is cheap compared to the Vikings you had to get. He stated that for 2 Colossi you need about 8 Vikings and that eats too much into your Bio. 8 Vikings = 600 Gas. 2 Colossi = 800 Gas, yeah so cheap.... you obviously need the range upgrade, or you will not force Vikings. After I heard him say that 2 Colossi cost less Gas then 6-8 Vikings I shut down the stream in anger. So I could not care less about his opinion, that is like IdrA saying Vortex is imbalanced while he INTENTIONALLY moves his entire army into one only to prove his point instead of having spread his units in the first place. collossi cost 300/200 though. sorry, but lol. He's factoring in the Thermal Lance upgrade. it's 200 200, so 2 collossi with thermal lance still arent 800. I love your ignorance you still need the robotics bay. Guess the Gas cost, Guess it. Or do you think every Protoss has it anyway because of the Obvserver upgrades? Well then Observers are pretty freaking expensive for the fact that every decent player can see them and kill them with one scan. like i said. for vikings you need a second starport and additional upgrades. so please consider these costs too. 200 150 for the starport 525 525 for level3 attack upgrades. yeah, you do not do that vs 2 Colossi or you must be pretty stupid, 8 Vikings off of 2 Starports with lvl 3 air upgrades is such an Overkill since you would destroy the Colossi in like 5 seconds instead of 5.5 with the air upgrades : ) okay, but you still need 2 starports. so let's say 2 starports and air level1 upgrade! but seriously, i wouldnt stop at level1 upgrades. protoss can always get more collossi. seems like a reasonable investment. Well that depends very much, and does not apply to the 2 Colossi example. I would not get more than +1 because a tech switch to templars is propably immenent and any more would be wasted. Also a second starport is only required if you scout late or waste Medivacs. Colossus building time is 75s Viking 42, so even if you scout the Colossus tech right when the Colossi are started you have more than enough time to get out 8 Vikings reactively. To deny your next argument: Colossi Range is 140 seconds, off of 2 bases you will have never enough Chronoboost to get both out in less than 100 seconds. IF protoss somehow managed to survive so long saving all Chronoboost AND is economically on the same level you will propably only get out 6 Vikings, but The Protoss ground forces will propably have suffered under the unused Chronoboost.
here's another point to consider. protoss is probably only at 1/1 upgrades when he has 2 collossi, but later he'll be at 3/3 while you kept your vikings at 1/0 ...
guess i dont have to elaborate.
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On May 12 2012 06:32 WhiteDog wrote:
People need to understand that SC1 was developped to a point that the distance between two bases, and the time that units takes to do that distance, what really important into designing the best strategies. In this regard, gateways is the most retarded thing Blizzard did, destroying the "defender advantage". That's why Flash have difficulties against all-in and think gateways are imba.
For colossus well, they're a retarded units too, everybody knows that.
Agreed.
Warpgates pretty much make it impossible to solve gate attacks by map distance.
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Isn't there a designated balance discussion thread you guys can all take a hike to?
This interview was awesome, I can't wait for Flash and others to bring a whole other level to sc2.
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On May 12 2012 05:31 rEalGuapo wrote:
Here is why I don't understand people say Protoss is imbalanced:
If you have incredibly good control, Protoss should not be able to place forcefields / Storms unless the Templars/Sentries were in a Warpprism (EMP has more range than Templar spells and Forcefields if you use the AEO completely)
Yes that does not apply to lower leagues and I honestly do no know if Protoss is way easier to play than terran or zerg at low levels, I also don't care.
But if you are the amongst the top players and say you play better than your opponnent I think you should outmicro him, leading to - No Storms.
Then I hear people like Demuslim complain about how expensive Vikings are compared to Colossi.
He said that getting 8 Vikings vs 2 Colossi is just such a big investment that cuts into the rest of your army.
8 Vikings = 600 Gas.
2 Colossi with Range = 800 Gas.
Yeah way less expensive than Colossi.
Also, I think the real problem is that there are very few Protoss players that compare about balance, but some players from other races build their entire career on that.
See IdrA, see Demuslim.
Yes, if you use one Fungal Growth against a Protoss army and move all of your 8 Infestors right into them, they all die and you lose. That however should not lead to imba-whining.
I win a lot vs Terrans, but I always lose to the ones that are willing to stutterstep through the entire map just to avoid Forcefields and Storms. But I guess that is way too much to expect from paid professionals.
Since I always get personally offended if someone says Protoss is the strongest race, because Hydras are so incredibly slow off creep that they get useless.
WELL GUESS WHAT, they have the same movespeed off creeps as Zealots.
In conclusion:
Fuck this, I'm going to smoke now.
When you're comparing costs I think you forget that terrans are very mineral heavy so the fact that it's a 2:1 ratio on them makes them more "expensive" than they actually are.
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On May 12 2012 06:03 herbie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:00 HolyArrow wrote:On May 12 2012 05:52 herbie wrote:There's one thing I have to say about people who are going, "Lol, Flash is a noob, he can't talk about balance, he can't match my 1A deathball skills" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial I never said that about Flash. Furthermore, "denial" implies that there's actually some overwhelming obvious truth that I'm being defensive about, while my argument is that things are not as clear-cut as they seem to some people, and that there are pieces of "evidence" that should not be used as evidence at all in a balance discussion because said evidence is itself biased (i.e Pros talking about what they think of balance). In the end, I'll say this: I don't care what you say about me, or how much people try to cloud the credibility of my argument with accusations of "denial". In the end, all my facts are there in my previous post, and as much as you try to mar my credibility, the facts thankfully remain constant: Even in the pro level, Protoss players say that Protoss is fine, while Terran players are complaining that Protoss is OP.
I can boil it down to a simple analogy to make it clearer. Let's say there's a panel of 4 experts on a subject. Expert A and B say that X is true, while experts C and D claim that X is not true. What people are essentially doing here is saying, "Oh look, Experts A and B say X is true, so HA!" while simultaneously ignoring the fact that experts C and D claim that X is not true. And in the case of SC2, experts A and B actually have a personal stake in convincing others that X is true, while experts C and D have a personal stake in convincing others that X is not true, which throws the validity of their opinions (validity in the sense of how close to the truth their opinions are) even more into question. I've said my piece, trying to make logical arguments on an internet forum is a fool's errand anyway xD Did I make a claim that I was talking about you in any way? I was making a general statement using the style you had chosen. Of course I agree that terrans have confirmation bias, but protosses have a denial bias. i.e protoss wont take his opinions into any account, while terrans will take his words as gods. Your ego makes you believe that protoss players have a more realistic look on the matchup, stating its balanced, what makes you think that terrans view on the matchup is inferior? That is essentually saying expert A and Bs claims of balance are true (despite their own personal bias), where expert C and Ds claims of imbalance are false.
It's hard to believe that you misconstrued my argument that much.
I don't believe that Protoss players have a more realistic view of the matchup. My argument is that both sides (Terran AND Protoss pros) are biased, so you can't use what either side says as a valid argument in a balance discussion.
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Okay Blizzard throw out your stats we have the answer on balance from the man himself. Okay well seriously though this game does have some balance problems which I think are partly to do with the game itself like hard counters, abilities and things like that.
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FLASH YOU CAN SLEEP AT MY HOUSE FOR ANAHEIM... AS I KIDNAP YOU BUAHAHHAHAHAHAHA ERRR
flash fighting! ;X
God: Protoss is overpowered
Even as an atheist... you have to see the truth when god speaks.
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On May 12 2012 06:30 testthewest wrote:
Somewhat funny:
He says: "I'm a noob!" (perhaps by progamer standarts)
But then whines about balance, it would make Idra pale...
Flash is VERY humble. 14-0 win streaks in tournament matches is him being "noob".
Additionally it's not "whine". It's an interview, and was he asked those questions.
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It's fucking hilarious how random Protoss just pop up all of a sudden and dismiss Flash's opinion on balance.
Kids, when you were spoon-fed not so long ago, this guy was tearing up multiple championships and proleagues. He is as credible as it gets.
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On May 12 2012 06:29 RazorHedge wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:21 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:18 Skaminator wrote:On May 12 2012 06:09 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:07 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 06:05 Bayyne wrote:On May 12 2012 06:04 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 05:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:46 Tippecanoe wrote:Implying hes the only pro to say that protoss was a bit too strong. Demuslim talked about it on his stream for about 5-10 minutes or so and he had really good points with real evidence. He said that Colossus tech is cheap compared to the Vikings you had to get. He stated that for 2 Colossi you need about 8 Vikings and that eats too much into your Bio. 8 Vikings = 600 Gas. 2 Colossi = 800 Gas, yeah so cheap.... you obviously need the range upgrade, or you will not force Vikings. After I heard him say that 2 Colossi cost less Gas then 6-8 Vikings I shut down the stream in anger. So I could not care less about his opinion, that is like IdrA saying Vortex is imbalanced while he INTENTIONALLY moves his entire army into one only to prove his point instead of having spread his units in the first place. collossi cost 300/200 though. sorry, but lol. He's factoring in the Thermal Lance upgrade. it's 200 200, so 2 collossi with thermal lance still arent 800. I love your ignorance you still need the robotics bay. Guess the Gas cost, Guess it. Or do you think every Protoss has it anyway because of the Obvserver upgrades? Well then Observers are pretty freaking expensive for the fact that every decent player can see them and kill them with one scan. 1 Broodlord 850 gas yes? completely out of context. He was talking about a very specific example, 2 Colossi vs Bio/Vikings which actually is a pretty common situation. I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything here,just trying to understand, but unless you're 4-gating it's pretty safe to assume EVERY protoss gets at least 1 robo, so you can substract that to the equation. Also, if the Viking/Colossus Ratio is 4 to 1. That requires 2 reactored starports te let's say.. have "equivalent" production. Not completely necessary though. But if you are constantly producing Colos, 2 SP comes by default. You are also forgetting +1 air attack, (At least, and it does count since you are considering thermal lance) So, again, not trying to pick a fight, but I do think the argument to analyze here is a different one, since we can safely assume the costs for that tech are pretty much alike. Is how cost effective are the units for that cost? My pick goes for the colos. P.S: I'm just stating simple scenarios and using basic math, not implying OPness or w/e.
Why do you need 2 Starports? Isn't Viking build time 42s and colossus 75 sec? so one reactored starport is already enough to get to a ratio of 1:3,5.
2 Starports will get you to 1 : 7 ratio (collossus /viking).
+1 air attack is absolute unnessecary to fight 2 colossus, while thermal lance is absolute nessecary to even force viking. Otherwise the Marauders kill a colossus in 2 volleys (=stimmed marauders =2sec)
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On May 12 2012 06:37 snakeeyez wrote:
Okay Blizzard throw out your stats we have the answer on balance from the man himself. Okay well seriously though this game does have some balance problems which I think are partly to do with the game itself like hard counters, abilities and things like that.
Let's see that man qualify to at least one offline tournament first before we listen to his opinions on balance, shall we? 
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On May 12 2012 06:29 RazorHedge wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:21 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:18 Skaminator wrote:On May 12 2012 06:09 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:07 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 06:05 Bayyne wrote:On May 12 2012 06:04 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 05:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:46 Tippecanoe wrote:Implying hes the only pro to say that protoss was a bit too strong. Demuslim talked about it on his stream for about 5-10 minutes or so and he had really good points with real evidence. He said that Colossus tech is cheap compared to the Vikings you had to get. He stated that for 2 Colossi you need about 8 Vikings and that eats too much into your Bio. 8 Vikings = 600 Gas. 2 Colossi = 800 Gas, yeah so cheap.... you obviously need the range upgrade, or you will not force Vikings. After I heard him say that 2 Colossi cost less Gas then 6-8 Vikings I shut down the stream in anger. So I could not care less about his opinion, that is like IdrA saying Vortex is imbalanced while he INTENTIONALLY moves his entire army into one only to prove his point instead of having spread his units in the first place. collossi cost 300/200 though. sorry, but lol. He's factoring in the Thermal Lance upgrade. it's 200 200, so 2 collossi with thermal lance still arent 800. I love your ignorance you still need the robotics bay. Guess the Gas cost, Guess it. Or do you think every Protoss has it anyway because of the Obvserver upgrades? Well then Observers are pretty freaking expensive for the fact that every decent player can see them and kill them with one scan. 1 Broodlord 850 gas yes? completely out of context. He was talking about a very specific example, 2 Colossi vs Bio/Vikings which actually is a pretty common situation. I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything here,just trying to understand, but unless you're 4-gating it's pretty safe to assume EVERY protoss gets at least 1 robo, so you can substract that to the equation. Also, if the Viking/Colossus Ratio is 4 to 1. That requires 2 reactored starports te let's say.. have "equivalent" production. Not completely necessary though. But if you are constantly producing Colos, 2 SP comes by default. You are also forgetting +1 air attack, (At least, and it does count since you are considering thermal lance) So, again, not trying to pick a fight, but I do think the argument to analyze here is a different one, since we can safely assume the costs for that tech are pretty much alike. Is how cost effective are the units for that cost? My pick goes for the colos. P.S: I'm just stating simple scenarios and using basic math, not implying OPness or w/e.
Math alone is often not the answer though.
First of all, one reactored Starport produces 4 Vikings in 82 seconds, one Colossus takes 75seconds. The Range Upgrade takes 140 seconds.
So no, you do not need 2.
Second I did not count the Robo or the Starport since they have already been constructed for other purpose (Immortals/observers and Medivacs)
Plus:
You either need a 4 to 1 Ratio (personal sidenote: I would not go over 12 Vikings)
Or an Upgrade.
8 unupgraded Vikings deal with 2 Colossi pretty well and the +1 attack would not change a whole lot.
8 Vikings = 160 damage per shot, so they kill Colossi with 2.2 shots, with +1 it is 176, still not requires more than 2 shots.´
12-16 Vikings with +1 should be good enough vs almost any number of Colossi since Protoss will not have enough Stalkers to shoot your Vikings while your Bio simply runs from the Colossi taking no damage.
So I still do not see the argument.
vs 4 Colossi 12 Vikings with +1 should be sufficent.
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What are the good and bad points about SC2?
There are a lot of strategies. It's fun because there are still many strategies to be discovered. However, it might be tough for the people watching. Especially the existing BW fans because they won't know about the new units.
I think this tells the whole story with the difference between high level SC2 and BW.
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On May 12 2012 06:39 testthewest wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:29 RazorHedge wrote:On May 12 2012 06:21 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:18 Skaminator wrote:On May 12 2012 06:09 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:07 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 06:05 Bayyne wrote:On May 12 2012 06:04 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 05:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:46 Tippecanoe wrote:
[quote]
Implying hes the only pro to say that protoss was a bit too strong. Demuslim talked about it on his stream for about 5-10 minutes or so and he had really good points with real evidence. He said that Colossus tech is cheap compared to the Vikings you had to get. He stated that for 2 Colossi you need about 8 Vikings and that eats too much into your Bio. 8 Vikings = 600 Gas. 2 Colossi = 800 Gas, yeah so cheap.... you obviously need the range upgrade, or you will not force Vikings. After I heard him say that 2 Colossi cost less Gas then 6-8 Vikings I shut down the stream in anger. So I could not care less about his opinion, that is like IdrA saying Vortex is imbalanced while he INTENTIONALLY moves his entire army into one only to prove his point instead of having spread his units in the first place. collossi cost 300/200 though. sorry, but lol. He's factoring in the Thermal Lance upgrade. it's 200 200, so 2 collossi with thermal lance still arent 800. I love your ignorance you still need the robotics bay. Guess the Gas cost, Guess it. Or do you think every Protoss has it anyway because of the Obvserver upgrades? Well then Observers are pretty freaking expensive for the fact that every decent player can see them and kill them with one scan. 1 Broodlord 850 gas yes? completely out of context. He was talking about a very specific example, 2 Colossi vs Bio/Vikings which actually is a pretty common situation. I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything here,just trying to understand, but unless you're 4-gating it's pretty safe to assume EVERY protoss gets at least 1 robo, so you can substract that to the equation. Also, if the Viking/Colossus Ratio is 4 to 1. That requires 2 reactored starports te let's say.. have "equivalent" production. Not completely necessary though. But if you are constantly producing Colos, 2 SP comes by default. You are also forgetting +1 air attack, (At least, and it does count since you are considering thermal lance) So, again, not trying to pick a fight, but I do think the argument to analyze here is a different one, since we can safely assume the costs for that tech are pretty much alike. Is how cost effective are the units for that cost? My pick goes for the colos. P.S: I'm just stating simple scenarios and using basic math, not implying OPness or w/e. Why do you need 2 Starports? Isn't Viking build time 42s and colossus 75 sec? so one reactored starport is already enough to get to a ratio of 1:3,5. 2 Starports will get you to 1:7 ratio (collossus /viking). +1 air attack is absolute unnessecary to fight 2 colossus, while thermal lance is absolute nessecary to even force viking. Otherwise the Marauders kill a colossus in 2 volleys (=stimmed marauders =2sec)
Because there's no large pop up saying "I'm making Colossi".
If T goes blind air and P goes HT T loses. Also, if you only have 1 Starport you won't be able to keep up Medivac production. And saying that T can't protect their Medivacs is a bit unfair considering after a certain point HTs one shot them.
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On May 12 2012 06:35 Applesqt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:31 rEalGuapo wrote:
Here is why I don't understand people say Protoss is imbalanced:
If you have incredibly good control, Protoss should not be able to place forcefields / Storms unless the Templars/Sentries were in a Warpprism (EMP has more range than Templar spells and Forcefields if you use the AEO completely)
Yes that does not apply to lower leagues and I honestly do no know if Protoss is way easier to play than terran or zerg at low levels, I also don't care.
But if you are the amongst the top players and say you play better than your opponnent I think you should outmicro him, leading to - No Storms.
Then I hear people like Demuslim complain about how expensive Vikings are compared to Colossi.
He said that getting 8 Vikings vs 2 Colossi is just such a big investment that cuts into the rest of your army.
8 Vikings = 600 Gas.
2 Colossi with Range = 800 Gas.
Yeah way less expensive than Colossi.
Also, I think the real problem is that there are very few Protoss players that compare about balance, but some players from other races build their entire career on that.
See IdrA, see Demuslim.
Yes, if you use one Fungal Growth against a Protoss army and move all of your 8 Infestors right into them, they all die and you lose. That however should not lead to imba-whining.
I win a lot vs Terrans, but I always lose to the ones that are willing to stutterstep through the entire map just to avoid Forcefields and Storms. But I guess that is way too much to expect from paid professionals.
Since I always get personally offended if someone says Protoss is the strongest race, because Hydras are so incredibly slow off creep that they get useless.
WELL GUESS WHAT, they have the same movespeed off creeps as Zealots.
In conclusion:
Fuck this, I'm going to smoke now. When you're comparing costs I think you forget that terrans are very mineral heavy so the fact that it's a 2:1 ratio on them makes them more "expensive" than they actually are.
So it comes handy that Terran can mine minerals faster than any other race.
Also I would love to have the Problem that a unit costs "too little Gas".
Which actually is not really accurate for Terran since a medivac is 100Gas, upgrades are expensive, addons cost gas etc etc..
I think you are not reflecting on what you say before you say it.
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EPT
