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I love that Flash talks about balance. The man speaks his mind, and you have to respect that. I hope he continues to openly give his impressions on SC2 as he gets better and better. I'll take it all!
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On May 12 2012 06:10 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:03 Belha wrote:
Protoss op banwagon all the way! Haha, smart as always. A bwonja's analysis who is statistically better than 99% of the TL community currently is not "banwagon". it's a gold nugget.
bonjwa in sc1, not sc2, he's good, but he's nowhere near the level of top players like MVP,MMA,MKP etc, and they aren't even pronounced as sc2 bonjwas.
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On May 12 2012 06:13 -Exalt- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:04 Severian wrote:On May 12 2012 06:02 Steglich wrote:
Now that flash says that protoss is op.
Can I finally say it too without receiving a ban? He also said Zerg was better than Terran, or are we all ignoring that bit because it doesn't fit into our narratives? so many terrible terrans in this thread thinking that an opinion on balance from a player who's played SC2 for a few weeks means anything. he also wasn't around for the 1 1/2 years that terran had a 65%+ w/r in the matchup.
hello there sooooo..........what is your reaction on that almost every pro terran is complaining abour protoss? Did they actually also only play for a few weeks or was that since beta=?
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On May 12 2012 06:15 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:09 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:07 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 06:05 Bayyne wrote:On May 12 2012 06:04 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 05:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:46 Tippecanoe wrote:Implying hes the only pro to say that protoss was a bit too strong. Demuslim talked about it on his stream for about 5-10 minutes or so and he had really good points with real evidence. He said that Colossus tech is cheap compared to the Vikings you had to get. He stated that for 2 Colossi you need about 8 Vikings and that eats too much into your Bio. 8 Vikings = 600 Gas. 2 Colossi = 800 Gas, yeah so cheap.... you obviously need the range upgrade, or you will not force Vikings. After I heard him say that 2 Colossi cost less Gas then 6-8 Vikings I shut down the stream in anger. So I could not care less about his opinion, that is like IdrA saying Vortex is imbalanced while he INTENTIONALLY moves his entire army into one only to prove his point instead of having spread his units in the first place. collossi cost 300/200 though. sorry, but lol. He's factoring in the Thermal Lance upgrade. it's 200 200, so 2 collossi with thermal lance still arent 800. I love your ignorance you still need the robotics bay. Guess the Gas cost, Guess it. Or do you think every Protoss has it anyway because of the Obvserver upgrades? Well then Observers are pretty freaking expensive for the fact that every decent player can see them and kill them with one scan. like i said. for vikings you need a second starport and additional upgrades. so please consider these costs too. 200 150 for the starport 525 525 for level3 attack upgrades.
Well then the colossus cost
Colossus= 300 200
3/3/3 upgrades= 1575 1575
Extended Thermal Lance= 200 200
Robotics Bay= 200 200
Robotic Facility=200 100
In total:
2475 minerals
2275 gas
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Wow, really enlightening, haha love his balance insight .__.
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On May 12 2012 06:18 Skaminator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:09 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:07 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 06:05 Bayyne wrote:On May 12 2012 06:04 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 05:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:46 Tippecanoe wrote:Implying hes the only pro to say that protoss was a bit too strong. Demuslim talked about it on his stream for about 5-10 minutes or so and he had really good points with real evidence. He said that Colossus tech is cheap compared to the Vikings you had to get. He stated that for 2 Colossi you need about 8 Vikings and that eats too much into your Bio. 8 Vikings = 600 Gas. 2 Colossi = 800 Gas, yeah so cheap.... you obviously need the range upgrade, or you will not force Vikings. After I heard him say that 2 Colossi cost less Gas then 6-8 Vikings I shut down the stream in anger. So I could not care less about his opinion, that is like IdrA saying Vortex is imbalanced while he INTENTIONALLY moves his entire army into one only to prove his point instead of having spread his units in the first place. collossi cost 300/200 though. sorry, but lol. He's factoring in the Thermal Lance upgrade. it's 200 200, so 2 collossi with thermal lance still arent 800. I love your ignorance you still need the robotics bay. Guess the Gas cost, Guess it. Or do you think every Protoss has it anyway because of the Obvserver upgrades? Well then Observers are pretty freaking expensive for the fact that every decent player can see them and kill them with one scan. 1 Broodlord 850 gas yes?
completely out of context. He was talking about a very specific example, 2 Colossi vs Bio/Vikings which actually is a pretty common situation.
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What SC2 player are you paying the most attention to?
No one yet. I had planned on focusing on the basics in the beginning and then looking at VODs, so I intend on watching them from now on.
So wait... are you trying to say that you can get into master's based on macro alone... THEN you worry about strategy and specific builds ?
Lol ;]
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On May 12 2012 06:17 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:15 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 06:09 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:07 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 06:05 Bayyne wrote:On May 12 2012 06:04 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 05:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:46 Tippecanoe wrote:Implying hes the only pro to say that protoss was a bit too strong. Demuslim talked about it on his stream for about 5-10 minutes or so and he had really good points with real evidence. He said that Colossus tech is cheap compared to the Vikings you had to get. He stated that for 2 Colossi you need about 8 Vikings and that eats too much into your Bio. 8 Vikings = 600 Gas. 2 Colossi = 800 Gas, yeah so cheap.... you obviously need the range upgrade, or you will not force Vikings. After I heard him say that 2 Colossi cost less Gas then 6-8 Vikings I shut down the stream in anger. So I could not care less about his opinion, that is like IdrA saying Vortex is imbalanced while he INTENTIONALLY moves his entire army into one only to prove his point instead of having spread his units in the first place. collossi cost 300/200 though. sorry, but lol. He's factoring in the Thermal Lance upgrade. it's 200 200, so 2 collossi with thermal lance still arent 800. I love your ignorance you still need the robotics bay. Guess the Gas cost, Guess it. Or do you think every Protoss has it anyway because of the Obvserver upgrades? Well then Observers are pretty freaking expensive for the fact that every decent player can see them and kill them with one scan. like i said. for vikings you need a second starport and additional upgrades. so please consider these costs too. 200 150 for the starport 525 525 for level3 attack upgrades. yeah, you do not do that vs 2 Colossi or you must be pretty stupid, 8 Vikings off of 2 Starports with lvl 3 air upgrades is such an Overkill since you would destroy the Colossi in like 5 seconds instead of 5.5 with the air upgrades : )
okay, but you still need 2 starports. so let's say 2 starports and air level1 upgrade!
but seriously, i wouldnt stop at level1 upgrades. protoss can always get more collossi. seems like a reasonable investment.
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On May 12 2012 06:22 imMUTAble787 wrote:Show nested quote +What SC2 player are you paying the most attention to?
No one yet. I had planned on focusing on the basics in the beginning and then looking at VODs, so I intend on watching them from now on. So wait... are you trying to say that you can get into master's based on macro alone... THEN you worry about strategy and specific builds ? Lol ;]
Flash got into Korean Master league using nothing but Marines, Tanks and Medivacs since he did not know what the other units do.
So yes, with incredible Mechanics alone you can get Master.
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If you look at it from a BW perspective and excluding the reaver, Toss was buffed in almost every area. Zealots with charge, stalkers/dragoons with blink, FF that take control away from your opponents army, colossus that just AoE everything 100% of the time and don't need a dropship, being able to warp-in across the map, etc. It's no wonder Toss feels OP.
I wonder how he reacted the first time he saw fungal growth kill a ton of marines.
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It's perfectly normal to think force field and gateways are imba if you just come out from SC1 : they are just a complete different game philosophy. Imo, even if I think toss is a bit op right now, Flash will eventually adjust himself to the new game and eat toss for breakfast.
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On May 12 2012 06:23 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:17 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:15 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 06:09 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:07 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 06:05 Bayyne wrote:On May 12 2012 06:04 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 05:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:46 Tippecanoe wrote:Implying hes the only pro to say that protoss was a bit too strong. Demuslim talked about it on his stream for about 5-10 minutes or so and he had really good points with real evidence. He said that Colossus tech is cheap compared to the Vikings you had to get. He stated that for 2 Colossi you need about 8 Vikings and that eats too much into your Bio. 8 Vikings = 600 Gas. 2 Colossi = 800 Gas, yeah so cheap.... you obviously need the range upgrade, or you will not force Vikings. After I heard him say that 2 Colossi cost less Gas then 6-8 Vikings I shut down the stream in anger. So I could not care less about his opinion, that is like IdrA saying Vortex is imbalanced while he INTENTIONALLY moves his entire army into one only to prove his point instead of having spread his units in the first place. collossi cost 300/200 though. sorry, but lol. He's factoring in the Thermal Lance upgrade. it's 200 200, so 2 collossi with thermal lance still arent 800. I love your ignorance you still need the robotics bay. Guess the Gas cost, Guess it. Or do you think every Protoss has it anyway because of the Obvserver upgrades? Well then Observers are pretty freaking expensive for the fact that every decent player can see them and kill them with one scan. like i said. for vikings you need a second starport and additional upgrades. so please consider these costs too. 200 150 for the starport 525 525 for level3 attack upgrades. yeah, you do not do that vs 2 Colossi or you must be pretty stupid, 8 Vikings off of 2 Starports with lvl 3 air upgrades is such an Overkill since you would destroy the Colossi in like 5 seconds instead of 5.5 with the air upgrades : ) okay, but you still need 2 starports. so let's say 2 starports and air level1 upgrade! but seriously, i wouldnt stop at level1 upgrades. protoss can always get more collossi. seems like a reasonable investment.
Well that depends very much, and does not apply to the 2 Colossi example.
I would not get more than +1 because a tech switch to templars is propably immenent and any more would be wasted. Also a second starport is only required if you scout late or waste Medivacs.
Colossus building time is 75s Viking 42, so even if you scout the Colossus tech right when the Colossi are started you have more than enough time to get out 8 Vikings reactively.
To deny your next argument:
Colossi Range is 140 seconds, off of 2 bases you will have never enough Chronoboost to get both out in less than 100 seconds. IF protoss somehow managed to survive so long saving all Chronoboost AND is economically on the same level you will propably only get out 6 Vikings, but The Protoss ground forces will propably have suffered under the unused Chronoboost.
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please pick zerg when HotS releases
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So glad to see an interview about this! It also excites me to see he wants to come to Canada! Would go anywhere in Canada to meet him.
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Any last words for the fans?
Because everyone is expecting so much I feel a lot of pressure. Even still there are good things. I end up working just as hard as there is pressure. I'm thankful for the expectations, and since this is the beginning I will make sure to meet those expectations eventually. Even though I can't give a confident response about my results yet, I'll make sure to work hard so that I can give a confident response in 3 to 4 months.
Probably the most anticipated player of bw hope he doesn't have a rough beginnning
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On May 12 2012 06:28 kast_ wrote:
please pick zerg when HotS releases
I kinda want him to pick zerg also with the viper and swarm lord....very interesting units for zerg.
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On May 12 2012 06:10 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:03 Belha wrote:
Protoss op banwagon all the way! Haha, smart as always. A bwonja's analysis who is statistically better than 99% of the TL community currently is not "banwagon". it's a gold nugget.
I just find it weird that, after seeing Terran dominate GSL for so long, BW pros are saying that Terran are UP. I wonder if it's due to the current metagame and patches, meaning BW pros would not say Protoss are the best had they entered the scene several months sooner, or if they're smelling something that SC2 pros hadn't picked up on (or, maybe they're just wrong, which is possible because God himself said he's still a noob... but I doubt they'd be calling Protoss OP unless there was good reason).
Regardless, awesome interview, go Flash!, and I hope he sticks with Terran. And I hope HotS is awesome =P
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On May 12 2012 06:21 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:18 Skaminator wrote:On May 12 2012 06:09 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:07 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 06:05 Bayyne wrote:On May 12 2012 06:04 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 05:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:46 Tippecanoe wrote:Implying hes the only pro to say that protoss was a bit too strong. Demuslim talked about it on his stream for about 5-10 minutes or so and he had really good points with real evidence. He said that Colossus tech is cheap compared to the Vikings you had to get. He stated that for 2 Colossi you need about 8 Vikings and that eats too much into your Bio. 8 Vikings = 600 Gas. 2 Colossi = 800 Gas, yeah so cheap.... you obviously need the range upgrade, or you will not force Vikings. After I heard him say that 2 Colossi cost less Gas then 6-8 Vikings I shut down the stream in anger. So I could not care less about his opinion, that is like IdrA saying Vortex is imbalanced while he INTENTIONALLY moves his entire army into one only to prove his point instead of having spread his units in the first place. collossi cost 300/200 though. sorry, but lol. He's factoring in the Thermal Lance upgrade. it's 200 200, so 2 collossi with thermal lance still arent 800. I love your ignorance you still need the robotics bay. Guess the Gas cost, Guess it. Or do you think every Protoss has it anyway because of the Obvserver upgrades? Well then Observers are pretty freaking expensive for the fact that every decent player can see them and kill them with one scan. 1 Broodlord 850 gas yes? completely out of context. He was talking about a very specific example, 2 Colossi vs Bio/Vikings which actually is a pretty common situation.
I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything here,just trying to understand, but unless you're 4-gating it's pretty safe to assume EVERY protoss gets at least 1 robo, so you can substract that to the equation.
Also, if the Viking/Colossus Ratio is 4 to 1. That requires 2 reactored starports te let's say.. have "equivalent" production. Not completely necessary though. But if you are constantly producing Colos, 2 SP comes by default. You are also forgetting +1 air attack, (At least, and it does count since you are considering thermal lance)
So, again, not trying to pick a fight, but I do think the argument to analyze here is a different one, since we can safely assume the costs for that tech are pretty much alike. Is how cost effective are the units for that cost?
My pick goes for the colos.
P.S: I'm just stating simple scenarios and using basic math, not implying OPness or w/e.
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Somewhat funny:
He says: "I'm a noob!" (perhaps by progamer standarts)
But then whines about balance, it would make Idra pale...
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On May 12 2012 06:20 Roxor9999 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:15 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 06:09 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:07 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 06:05 Bayyne wrote:On May 12 2012 06:04 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 05:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:46 Tippecanoe wrote:Implying hes the only pro to say that protoss was a bit too strong. Demuslim talked about it on his stream for about 5-10 minutes or so and he had really good points with real evidence. He said that Colossus tech is cheap compared to the Vikings you had to get. He stated that for 2 Colossi you need about 8 Vikings and that eats too much into your Bio. 8 Vikings = 600 Gas. 2 Colossi = 800 Gas, yeah so cheap.... you obviously need the range upgrade, or you will not force Vikings. After I heard him say that 2 Colossi cost less Gas then 6-8 Vikings I shut down the stream in anger. So I could not care less about his opinion, that is like IdrA saying Vortex is imbalanced while he INTENTIONALLY moves his entire army into one only to prove his point instead of having spread his units in the first place. collossi cost 300/200 though. sorry, but lol. He's factoring in the Thermal Lance upgrade. it's 200 200, so 2 collossi with thermal lance still arent 800. I love your ignorance you still need the robotics bay. Guess the Gas cost, Guess it. Or do you think every Protoss has it anyway because of the Obvserver upgrades? Well then Observers are pretty freaking expensive for the fact that every decent player can see them and kill them with one scan. like i said. for vikings you need a second starport and additional upgrades. so please consider these costs too. 200 150 for the starport 525 525 for level3 attack upgrades. Well then the colossus cost Colossus= 300 200 3/3/3 upgrades= 1575 1575 Extended Thermal Lance= 200 200 Robotics Bay= 200 200 Robotic Facility=200 100 In total: 2475 minerals 2275 gas
1 Broodlord
200 spawning pool
150 100 lair
infestation pit 100 100
hive 200 150
spire 200 200
greater spire 100 150
Corruptor 150 100
Brood lord morph 150 150
3/3 air 3/3 land upgrades 525 525 675 675 450 450 675 675
3575 minerals 3175 gas
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EPT
