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On May 28 2012 00:57 SKYFISH_ wrote:
then you have successfully baited me, i congratulate you.
because it is only at the highest level where you see marines countering banelings successfully, and only by a handful of terrans, which means you're contradicting yourself in your original post, i.e. intentional logical fallacy
well done
No i've met plenty of players in masters that can micro marines perfectly. They just aren't that good at macro and multitasking which is why foreigner pro terrans are much better than them. Foreigner pros could all have perfect micro they just dont feel the need to spend time on it since they have much other actual hard work to go through to have a chance at the top levels.
It's fun to watch Marineking micro sure. But you shouldn't be impressed by something that anyone can emulate with a few days work. You should be impressed about the fact that all his barracks are making units and he's expanding / dropping at the same time as he is doing that micro.
Oh and I didn't bait you in any way. You are just a very presumptious person.
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On May 28 2012 00:47 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 00:35 ACrow wrote:On May 28 2012 00:27 StarBrift wrote:On May 28 2012 00:23 JustPassingBy wrote:On May 27 2012 23:54 Mjolnir wrote:
The problem is the marine.
they can go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything given the right micro and spacing.
Yes, anything. There are games where pros split and micro against infestor bane (marine counters) to make the engagement cost effective. Sorry, but if a marine terran can defeat a bane/infestor zerg, then it's not because the marine is imbalanced, but it's because the terran just outplayed the zerg hard! Microing perfectly, you might pull something as you described, but do you know how incredibly hard it is to do that? If the terran can do that while macroing toe-on-toe with the zerg, then the zerg is simply being outplayed. No micro in this game can be considered "incredibly hard". Incredibly hard is stuff like multitasking at a top pro level. All types of micro can be learned in a micro trainer in under a day. That's not what I call incredibly hard. I don't believe you played/watched much SC2. I'm top masters on europe and I've played maybe 5k+ games in sc2 so far. If you truly think micro in itself is impressive then you are some kind of gold level fanboy that doesn't realise how incredibly easy it is to learn if you just have proper mouse speeds and such. My point was about micro in itself being incredibly easy to learn. Ther fact that you have to go back to your base to make stuff doesn't make the actual micro harder. Micro is super easy. Multitasking is hard.
Oh ok, I get you and agree with you, when you concentrate 100% on the micro while neglecting anything else it is not that impressive (though even then, hitting really perfect splits/positioning is still a feat). I am sorry, I misunderstood you.
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On May 28 2012 01:06 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 00:57 SKYFISH_ wrote:
then you have successfully baited me, i congratulate you.
because it is only at the highest level where you see marines countering banelings successfully, and only by a handful of terrans, which means you're contradicting yourself in your original post, i.e. intentional logical fallacy
well done
No i've met plenty of players in masters that can micro marines perfectly. They just aren't that good at macro and multitasking which is why foreigner pro terrans are much better than them. Foreigner pros could all have perfect micro they just dont feel the need to spend time on it since they have much other actual hard work to go through to have a chance at the top levels. It's fun to watch Marineking micro sure. But you shouldn't be impressed by something that anyone can emulate with a few days work. You should be impressed about the fact that all his barracks are making units and he's expanding / dropping at the same time as he is doing that micro. Oh and I didn't bait you in any way. You are just a very presumptious person.
Obviously, Marineking's micro is so great because he is constantly macroing behind it. I doubt people would like him so much if his macro at home would suck during the constant pressure he is putting up.
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On May 28 2012 01:00 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 00:55 Affluenza wrote:
I remember when Blizzard was playing around with a marine 10% dps nerf...
I wonder if they will consider it in future... I hope not if the solution is buffing the tank because that would make TvT once a again a giant pain in the ass. Its annoying as is right now once one or both side have 10+ tanks but if they makee tanks as strong as they had been in beta and the beginning of the game TvT will once against be tank/viking only and suck as hell.
iirc it was buffs for Tanks, Thors and Raven...with particular focus on the Thor being the ultimate late-game unit. Which is why we saw the introduction of the warhound to replace the Thor...
The problem I think is that if they change too much it will affect all match ups and if they do too little it doesn't help the evolution of the game going forward and it will look like Blizzard is just cashing in and doesn't know how to advance SC2 beyond WoL.
Personally I feel Blizzard patches till units are blunt...they don't want units to have any edge over any other...
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On May 28 2012 01:11 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 01:06 StarBrift wrote:On May 28 2012 00:57 SKYFISH_ wrote:
then you have successfully baited me, i congratulate you.
because it is only at the highest level where you see marines countering banelings successfully, and only by a handful of terrans, which means you're contradicting yourself in your original post, i.e. intentional logical fallacy
well done
No i've met plenty of players in masters that can micro marines perfectly. They just aren't that good at macro and multitasking which is why foreigner pro terrans are much better than them. Foreigner pros could all have perfect micro they just dont feel the need to spend time on it since they have much other actual hard work to go through to have a chance at the top levels. It's fun to watch Marineking micro sure. But you shouldn't be impressed by something that anyone can emulate with a few days work. You should be impressed about the fact that all his barracks are making units and he's expanding / dropping at the same time as he is doing that micro. Oh and I didn't bait you in any way. You are just a very presumptious person. Obviously, Marineking's micro is so great because he is constantly macroing behind it. I doubt people would like him so much if his macro at home would suck during the constant pressure he is putting up.
So why are people getting so impressed about the micro when it can be learned by a diamond player? The macro and multitasking is what takes time to learn. People should be impressed by that instead.
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On May 28 2012 01:14 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 01:11 JustPassingBy wrote:On May 28 2012 01:06 StarBrift wrote:On May 28 2012 00:57 SKYFISH_ wrote:
then you have successfully baited me, i congratulate you.
because it is only at the highest level where you see marines countering banelings successfully, and only by a handful of terrans, which means you're contradicting yourself in your original post, i.e. intentional logical fallacy
well done
No i've met plenty of players in masters that can micro marines perfectly. They just aren't that good at macro and multitasking which is why foreigner pro terrans are much better than them. Foreigner pros could all have perfect micro they just dont feel the need to spend time on it since they have much other actual hard work to go through to have a chance at the top levels. It's fun to watch Marineking micro sure. But you shouldn't be impressed by something that anyone can emulate with a few days work. You should be impressed about the fact that all his barracks are making units and he's expanding / dropping at the same time as he is doing that micro. Oh and I didn't bait you in any way. You are just a very presumptious person. Obviously, Marineking's micro is so great because he is constantly macroing behind it. I doubt people would like him so much if his macro at home would suck during the constant pressure he is putting up. So why are people getting so impressed about the micro when it can be learned by a diamond player? The macro and multitasking is what takes time to learn. People should be impressed by that instead.
macro and multitasking wins games, but doesn't look nearly as good on stream.
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macro take time to learn? with MBS, lol? the only hard things are the multitasking, and the correct timing(of mid-late game attacks, not early attacks)/BO execution
also positioning your units well, is really really important
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I always lol when I come onto forums and people say things like 'lol, I micro as well as MKP, he just has better mechanics than me." Post a replay of you microing perfectly or stfu.
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there is nothing speical in MKP micro, honestly...but his multitasking is, on another level
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They sound leave the mothership in HOTS
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On May 28 2012 01:14 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 01:11 JustPassingBy wrote:On May 28 2012 01:06 StarBrift wrote:On May 28 2012 00:57 SKYFISH_ wrote:
then you have successfully baited me, i congratulate you.
because it is only at the highest level where you see marines countering banelings successfully, and only by a handful of terrans, which means you're contradicting yourself in your original post, i.e. intentional logical fallacy
well done
No i've met plenty of players in masters that can micro marines perfectly. They just aren't that good at macro and multitasking which is why foreigner pro terrans are much better than them. Foreigner pros could all have perfect micro they just dont feel the need to spend time on it since they have much other actual hard work to go through to have a chance at the top levels. It's fun to watch Marineking micro sure. But you shouldn't be impressed by something that anyone can emulate with a few days work. You should be impressed about the fact that all his barracks are making units and he's expanding / dropping at the same time as he is doing that micro. Oh and I didn't bait you in any way. You are just a very presumptious person. Obviously, Marineking's micro is so great because he is constantly macroing behind it. I doubt people would like him so much if his macro at home would suck during the constant pressure he is putting up. So why are people getting so impressed about the micro when it can be learned by a diamond player? The macro and multitasking is what takes time to learn. People should be impressed by that instead.
I don't think macro isn't that hard to learn to. All you really have to do is to keep cycling those hotkeys for the production buildings and look that they are constantly producing something. Would be really easy to do if there wasn't any micro to focus on though. Still, I don't see why most people would be impressed by macro or multitasking. I personally like watching pro terrans splitting all their marines in few short seconds away from each other when those banelings arrive.
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Man, apparently everything from macro to micro is easy. So everyone is GM here?
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On May 28 2012 03:13 Rhine wrote:
Man, apparently everything from macro to micro is easy. So everyone is GM here?
Yes! =D
Seriously though, they all are easy if you would need to only focus on one of them, but when you mix them up it isn't so simple anymore.
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It's pretty funny seeing people here convince themselves they can micro as well as MKP. Just gotta step up your other mechanics a bit and go win some MLGs I guess.
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On May 28 2012 01:06 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 00:57 SKYFISH_ wrote:
then you have successfully baited me, i congratulate you.
because it is only at the highest level where you see marines countering banelings successfully, and only by a handful of terrans, which means you're contradicting yourself in your original post, i.e. intentional logical fallacy
well done
No i've met plenty of players in masters that can micro marines perfectly. They just aren't that good at macro and multitasking which is why foreigner pro terrans are much better than them. Foreigner pros could all have perfect micro they just dont feel the need to spend time on it since they have much other actual hard work to go through to have a chance at the top levels. It's fun to watch Marineking micro sure. But you shouldn't be impressed by something that anyone can emulate with a few days work. You should be impressed about the fact that all his barracks are making units and he's expanding / dropping at the same time as he is doing that micro. Oh and I didn't bait you in any way. You are just a very presumptious person.
I wish I could micro marines perfectly
why cant I be as good as those masters players
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On May 28 2012 04:21 Beakyboo wrote:
It's pretty funny seeing people here convince themselves they can micro as well as MKP. Just gotta step up your other mechanics a bit and go win some MLGs I guess.
You don't know whos gonna be the next Lee Young Ho.....
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StarBrift should be banned for talking total bs...
guys like you are the reason pros dont post on tl anymore, claiming stuff that is not true at all, claiming u have any idea about the game when ur obviously not even high masters/low gm and even those guys cant talk about the game
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On May 27 2012 23:15 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2012 23:00 upperbound wrote:On May 27 2012 22:49 Jermstuddog wrote:On May 27 2012 21:42 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:On May 27 2012 21:25 Bearwidme wrote:
"Lol, poor Zerg. Oh no blue flame hellions! Nerf. Oh no hellions denying creep! Queen Buff. Oh no we dont know whats coming out of Terran base! Overlord speed buff! Oh no we cant handle 11/11 rushes! Rax build time increased, bunker salvage nerf, bunker build time increased. Oh no ghosts are pretty good against Z late game units! Ghost snipe cut in half... The list goes on, but simply saying "Zerg struggled and learned how to play" is quite ridiculous. Must be nice to have a silver platter..."
It goes both ways though
Oh no ! Zerg is making zerglings. what should i make? marines. roaches? marines. mutas? marines.. etc.
I agree that terran is the hardest to play, but they do have the strongest mid game simply because they have so many options. They have a weak late game becasue they don't have any options (assuming - battlecruisers/thors not viable). If you buffed the terran late game you would see terrans spike to 80/90% win rates because they would be strong all game and their options would be rediculous.
The difference between Terran and the other two races is that toss/zerg Build towards these deathballs using the 'cannon fodder' (zergling/zealot etc) , where as terran builds towards a Support Ball the helps out their cannon fodder. I imagine it is very hard to buff the support ball to a level that balances against the death ball without making them overpowered with other things. Terran makes marines because they HAVE TO. We don't have any other cost efficient unit like that. On the ground: Nothing is really as cost efficient as the marine, possibly the tank but that's not a "massable" unit like that marine. For AA: We have thors (lol), vikings, ghosts, BCs, and Ravens. Tell me what we're supposed to make OTHER THAN marines to deal with anti air? Vikings? Hard countered by mutas because you need to have equal numbers of vikings to mutas and they don't shoot down (unless in ground mode) and if you have that many vikings he can switch to all lings/roaches. Thors are only good vs mutas, clumped up Broodlords/corruptors, but need marines and other support units. They also have a very long build time and are expensive.Ghosts...pretty self explanatory why we don't mass them anymore, and BCs and Ravens...you can figure out why they aren't massable units early. Yes, the core of our army is marines, but that's because we just don't have good late game units. Mvp literally had to make 25 BCs vs. Squirtle to get a point where he was comfortable engaging. I've seen more times than not where BCs have failed tbh. Is Terran underpowered? Clearly not, but it seems like at the moment Blizzard went overboard with nerfs to Terran and buffs to Protoss/Zerg. We still have viable units and all that, but lots of my favorite openers were substantially weakened. I used to do an MMA reaper double expand build (it's old school and is a little worse than the bomber one but it is much safer), and now it's not viable because I just can't do anything with the reaper. Queens just have too much range and can really just deny my reaper all day. Hellions are much worse too now, but they're still good I guess. Day9 even made a comment on one of his dailies about Zerg at MLG, how they only really lost to Polt, Dream, and Inori. The simple fact that players like MKP have pure marine strategies in all 3 MU invalidates your argument. Good day sir. If anything, that proves his argument. lol Ok, lets go through the argument. Terran doesn't WANT to build Marines, they HAVE to. MKP has entire armies consisting of 100% Marines and nothing else... sounds like he WANTS to build Marines there... Now that the whole basis of his argument is shot, lets look at the finer points. He talks about no other unit being cost-effective like the marine, then proceeds to give specific examples where units are cost-effective like the marine. Then he tries to act like Marines are somehow not good late-game units, when 3/3 Marines are among the scariest units in the game and pros use them long past the midgame without complaint because... well... they're so damn good. I'm not here to raise my complaints about balance... see my year old quote from Jinro and that's all you really need to know how I feel about the game. Just pointing out how the entire argument is based on the fallacy that marines are not a desirable unit where multiple entire game plans are built around this one unit and only this one unit in all 3 MU. No other unit in the game can claim that. Momentary stalker or roach attacks, sure. But those always transition into something else. Marines on the other hand... 5 rax marine... 7 rax marine... I remember that game of Bomber vs Idra where Bomber literally made nothing but marines for like 20 minutes and barely lost. Countless MKP games. QQ over how shitty the marine is all you want, but the facts just don't support the claim bro.
Okay, you clearly need some help with reading comprehension or something.
He never said the marine was bad, he said that every other unit is bad, and therefore people make lots of marines. Therefore, you saying that MKP makes only marines proves his argument, because if other units were better than marines, Marine King probably wouldn't just make marines. I don't know why you're talking about how good the marine is -- that's just the point, they HAVE to be that good because otherwise terran literally couldn't ever win a game. Everyone agrees that marines are good.
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[QUOTE]On May 28 2012 04:22 KawaiiRice wrote:
[QUOTE]On May 28 2012 01:06 StarBrift wrote:
[QUOTE]On May 28 2012 00:57 SKYFISH_ wrote:
then you have successfully baited me, i congratulate you.
because it is only at the highest level where you see marines countering banelings successfully, and only by a handful of terrans, which means you're contradicting yourself in your original post, i.e. intentional logical fallacy
well done
[/QUOTE]
No i've met plenty of players in masters that can micro marines perfectly. They just aren't that good at macro and multitasking which is why foreigner pro terrans are much better than them. Foreigner pros could all have perfect micro they just dont feel the need to spend time on it since they have much other actual hard work to go through to have a chance at the top levels.
It's fun to watch Marineking micro sure. But you shouldn't be impressed by something that anyone can emulate with a few days work. You should be impressed about the fact that all his barracks are making units and he's expanding / dropping at the same time as he is doing that micro.
Oh and I didn't bait you in any way. You are just a very presumptious person.[/QUOTE]
I wish I could micro marines perfectly
why cant I be as good as those masters players[/QUOTE
lol, seriously what a goober that guy is. Probably never split marines in his life and just assumes it is easy. Everyone can emulate MKP's micro huh? Show us some replays of you doing that and I will believe you
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I'm mindblown that some people aren't impressed with MKP's micro or any pro players micro at that.
The queen buff I really don't understand. I believe balance changes should be made due to necessity and not just for convenience. Zerg players are obviously happy because it makes life for them easier, but if Terran is forced to innovate than why isn't that ever the case for Zerg? Z and P gets buffed and as soon as Terran comes up with something new, it gets nerfed. Why couldn't Zerg learn to deal with tanks and bfh before a pre mature nerf? Why couldn't they just react faster to medivacs and drops instead of Blizzard having to nerf medivac speed? I don't think it has been very fair to Terran honestly since the game has been released and it seems Blizzard makes balance changes off of tournament results with the combination of Z and P whining.
Regardless, I think the way the races are designed, there's not much more Blizzard can do to balance the game. I think Z and P need to be more micro intensive and be either more or less rewarded for it the same way Terran is. I still love the game and will continue to play Terran despite how I feel about balance issues.
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EPT
