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On May 29 2012 17:54 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 13:08 oxxo wrote:
Marines stopped being 'OP' the moment people realized they couldn't sit at 0/0 vs 3/3 marines. Pretty silly to talk about them. Bullshit. Marines are still the backbone of every Terran matchup because so much of SC2 Terran's power is invested into a single unit and other Terran assets are underpowered to compensate. Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 16:03 mizore wrote:On May 29 2012 12:54 sunprince wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 28 2012 05:15 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 00:22 s3rp wrote:On May 27 2012 23:54 Mjolnir wrote:
The problem is the marine.
They're too strong - period. I play Terran and Zerg and I utterly hate how Terran plays in SC2 (compared to BW) simply because bio is so freaking strong - in every match up.. Not only do marines have more life now, they can get a shield to increase that life further - two factors that make them so powerful early/early mid. They have phenomenal dps per cost, and they can go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything given the right micro and spacing.
Yes, anything. There are games where pros split and micro against infestor bane (marine counters) to make the engagement cost effective.
That's absurd. It's a spammable tier 1 unit that is extremely effective throughout the entire game. I know the counter argument here is that zealots or zerglings are also effective late game (drops, warp ins, run bys); but I'd respond to that by saying neither of those units is as effective as late game marines, nor do you find builds where the only unit used to carry the game from early, mid, to late is one of those units.
Example, the ling/infestor builds that Terrans struggle with is a build that's meant to get enough time and save gas to get BLs. Compare that to virtually any non-mech Terran build where marines are the core of the army from start to finish.
Again, I play T and Z. While each race has strengths, Terran marines are so strong it actually makes playing the race feel shitty and one-dimensional. I would argue that so many of Terran's nerfs could have been avoided if marines were only slightly weaker. This would have made (at the very least) Terran a far more dynamic and interesting race to play.
Of course, this is all my opinion and I'm sure the flames will start rolling in. My post isn't meant to incite argument - I enjoy playing all races and I'm not qqing about marines from the standpoint of a Zerg or Protoss. To be quite honest, I am disappointed with how Terran, my favourite race, plays out because marines are so incredibly strong.
Which they also have to be because any non-Marine is not strong enough to be the core unit. Tanks are not nearly as good as in BW ( not even close ) unless you get 10+ of them and 1-2 hit an entire army. And even that doesn't work against Protoss because Protoss units close the distance too fast to sieged tanks . Anything else isn't even fit to be a core unit. Helions suck against anything that isn't light , Thors are way too slow and clunky . And that's part of my gripe with SC2 Terran. Those units were nerfed because they were perceived to be too strong. I believe that they weren't - the marines "supporting" them were. There's a reason Terran doesn't have any other "core unit" option - they're all crap when compared to what you get from a marine for 50 minerals. BW Terran was fantastic. They had many versatile builds, none of which revolved entirely around a single unit - certainly not like Terran plays in SC2. Again, I'm not trying to incite an argument. I just think marines are so strong and the cause for a lot of the problems in SC2. They should have been balanced long ago - it's possible that if they were Terrans wouldn't have had a nerf to their rax first builds, rax build times, bunker rushes, tank damage, etc. etc. I really believe an argument can be made that more balanced marines would have prevented many of the nerfs Terrans have faced since beta. I say this as a T and Z player. I would prefer Terran was more rounded and didn't rely on marines/bio for every match up. Completely agreed. Blizzard's unwillingness to touch the sacred cow that is the marine is responsible for it's distortion of every Terran matchup. If the SC2 marine was replaced by the BW marine, then all of the following patch changes would have been unnecessary: Depot before barracks. Bunker build time increase. SCV life decrease. Medivac speed decrease. Nexus/Depot/Hatch/Lair/Pool/Spire/Cavern life increase. They would also die after stimming to: 1 Baneling 1 Fungal 1 Tank volley (hello tank viking~) 2 Blue Flame Hellion shots (and 2 without stimming prepatch :D) 1 Colossus attack Not that I'm entirely against the idea but you'd have to severely change other aspects of the race to even make it work because marines wouldn't be worth much of anything if they only had their bw 40hp and couldn't stutterstep. Oh, and they'd also start at range 4. Most of those other things were designed with OP marines in mind, and wouldn't have to exist in their current forms were it not due to marines. A lot of the game's design decisions were drastically distorted by the need to deal with the marine: Banelings wouldn't have been needed in the game; lurkers would have been included instead. Fungals should counter marines and destroy them in any real situation even if one-shotting weren't an issue. Tanks countering marines is not a problem. See BW. Blue flame hellions aren't all that effective against spread marines. Colossi are stupid units that wouldn't have been needed if not for the marine; we would've had reavers instead. On top of that, those are marine counters, and stims are supposed to be a real cost. What exactly are you expecting, when Zerglings, Zealots, and Hydras die to those same units just as easily? It's not like you don't have other units to protect marines; pure marines shouldn't be a viable composition. Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 17:08 Garmer wrote:On May 29 2012 16:35 Salteador Neo wrote:
All terrans want mech to be viable against protoss but don't want TvT to be the Tank-viking boring-as-hell stalemate it was before.
Well you can't have one without the other IMO. speak for you, tvt played with tank viking, for me is far more entertaining than stupid bio-boring shit On May 29 2012 16:03 mizore wrote:On May 29 2012 12:54 sunprince wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 28 2012 05:15 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 00:22 s3rp wrote:On May 27 2012 23:54 Mjolnir wrote:
The problem is the marine.
They're too strong - period. I play Terran and Zerg and I utterly hate how Terran plays in SC2 (compared to BW) simply because bio is so freaking strong - in every match up.. Not only do marines have more life now, they can get a shield to increase that life further - two factors that make them so powerful early/early mid. They have phenomenal dps per cost, and they can go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything given the right micro and spacing.
Yes, anything. There are games where pros split and micro against infestor bane (marine counters) to make the engagement cost effective.
That's absurd. It's a spammable tier 1 unit that is extremely effective throughout the entire game. I know the counter argument here is that zealots or zerglings are also effective late game (drops, warp ins, run bys); but I'd respond to that by saying neither of those units is as effective as late game marines, nor do you find builds where the only unit used to carry the game from early, mid, to late is one of those units.
Example, the ling/infestor builds that Terrans struggle with is a build that's meant to get enough time and save gas to get BLs. Compare that to virtually any non-mech Terran build where marines are the core of the army from start to finish.
Again, I play T and Z. While each race has strengths, Terran marines are so strong it actually makes playing the race feel shitty and one-dimensional. I would argue that so many of Terran's nerfs could have been avoided if marines were only slightly weaker. This would have made (at the very least) Terran a far more dynamic and interesting race to play.
Of course, this is all my opinion and I'm sure the flames will start rolling in. My post isn't meant to incite argument - I enjoy playing all races and I'm not qqing about marines from the standpoint of a Zerg or Protoss. To be quite honest, I am disappointed with how Terran, my favourite race, plays out because marines are so incredibly strong.
Which they also have to be because any non-Marine is not strong enough to be the core unit. Tanks are not nearly as good as in BW ( not even close ) unless you get 10+ of them and 1-2 hit an entire army. And even that doesn't work against Protoss because Protoss units close the distance too fast to sieged tanks . Anything else isn't even fit to be a core unit. Helions suck against anything that isn't light , Thors are way too slow and clunky . And that's part of my gripe with SC2 Terran. Those units were nerfed because they were perceived to be too strong. I believe that they weren't - the marines "supporting" them were. There's a reason Terran doesn't have any other "core unit" option - they're all crap when compared to what you get from a marine for 50 minerals. BW Terran was fantastic. They had many versatile builds, none of which revolved entirely around a single unit - certainly not like Terran plays in SC2. Again, I'm not trying to incite an argument. I just think marines are so strong and the cause for a lot of the problems in SC2. They should have been balanced long ago - it's possible that if they were Terrans wouldn't have had a nerf to their rax first builds, rax build times, bunker rushes, tank damage, etc. etc. I really believe an argument can be made that more balanced marines would have prevented many of the nerfs Terrans have faced since beta. I say this as a T and Z player. I would prefer Terran was more rounded and didn't rely on marines/bio for every match up. Completely agreed. Blizzard's unwillingness to touch the sacred cow that is the marine is responsible for it's distortion of every Terran matchup. If the SC2 marine was replaced by the BW marine, then all of the following patch changes would have been unnecessary: Depot before barracks. Bunker build time increase. SCV life decrease. Medivac speed decrease. Nexus/Depot/Hatch/Lair/Pool/Spire/Cavern life increase. They would also die after stimming to: 1 Baneling 1 Fungal 1 Tank volley (hello tank viking~) 2 Blue Flame Hellion shots (and 2 without stimming prepatch :D) 1 Colossus attack Not that I'm entirely against the idea but you'd have to severely change other aspects of the race to even make it work because marines wouldn't be worth much of anything if they only had their bw 40hp and couldn't stutterstep. Oh, and they'd also start at range 4. the marine buff, come from a decision to make the dropship an healing unit, all the problem come from there, if there were medic in sc2, all this bullshit marine problems would not exist. the medivac is the real guilty False. Marines distort the game long before medivacs enter play. There's a reason why SCV life was nerfed, depot was made a requirement for rax, bunker build times were increased, etc.
no, you have not understood
question: why they buffed marine?(the +5 hp and the range 5 are a buff, in BW you have to research the range to make them 5 range units, these are significant buff)
answer: cuz medic were removed
question: why medic were removed?
answer: cuz they introduced the medivac
medivac is the responsible of the marine buff..
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Eliminate combat shield, make tanks 2 supply, problem solved. Game instantly gets more exciting because there are more strategic options.
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On May 29 2012 18:04 Garmer wrote:
no, you have not understood
question: why they buffed marine?
answer: cuz medic were removed
question: why medic were removed?
answer: cuz they introduced the medivac
medivac is the responsabil of the marine buff..
Wrong. If you had followed the development of SC2 closely, then you would've been aware that the marines were buffed from their BW counterparts long before medivacs were introduced.
According to Dustin Browder, medivacs were brought into the game later on, because medics couldn't keep up with reapers and they wanted a flying medic that could do that. Sounds crazy considering how reapers were actually used, but true.
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so it's all repears fault, even worse lol
i keep on thinking that, they should have not touched such things, they screwed the game, just for the sake of changes
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On May 29 2012 18:12 Garmer wrote:
so it's all repears fault, even worse lol
Still no. The medivac is the reaper's fault, but the marine buff happened before that.
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On May 29 2012 18:07 0neder wrote:
Eliminate combat shield, make tanks 2 supply, problem solved. Game instantly gets more exciting because there are more strategic options.
Hell no that wouldn't work at all tanks are not the problem that needs a buff. Thors and Helions just stupidly desinged. Helions suck against anything that isn't Light ( and die like flies ) and Thors slow down your army even more than tanks do and those things have to siege up. Helions need to be redesiged to be better against every groundunit that isn't light and a bit weaker against light . Thor faster with less hp , less damage but less supply and less cost as well.
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On May 29 2012 18:04 Garmer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 17:54 sunprince wrote:On May 29 2012 13:08 oxxo wrote:
Marines stopped being 'OP' the moment people realized they couldn't sit at 0/0 vs 3/3 marines. Pretty silly to talk about them. Bullshit. Marines are still the backbone of every Terran matchup because so much of SC2 Terran's power is invested into a single unit and other Terran assets are underpowered to compensate. On May 29 2012 16:03 mizore wrote:On May 29 2012 12:54 sunprince wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 28 2012 05:15 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 00:22 s3rp wrote:On May 27 2012 23:54 Mjolnir wrote:
The problem is the marine.
They're too strong - period. I play Terran and Zerg and I utterly hate how Terran plays in SC2 (compared to BW) simply because bio is so freaking strong - in every match up.. Not only do marines have more life now, they can get a shield to increase that life further - two factors that make them so powerful early/early mid. They have phenomenal dps per cost, and they can go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything given the right micro and spacing.
Yes, anything. There are games where pros split and micro against infestor bane (marine counters) to make the engagement cost effective.
That's absurd. It's a spammable tier 1 unit that is extremely effective throughout the entire game. I know the counter argument here is that zealots or zerglings are also effective late game (drops, warp ins, run bys); but I'd respond to that by saying neither of those units is as effective as late game marines, nor do you find builds where the only unit used to carry the game from early, mid, to late is one of those units.
Example, the ling/infestor builds that Terrans struggle with is a build that's meant to get enough time and save gas to get BLs. Compare that to virtually any non-mech Terran build where marines are the core of the army from start to finish.
Again, I play T and Z. While each race has strengths, Terran marines are so strong it actually makes playing the race feel shitty and one-dimensional. I would argue that so many of Terran's nerfs could have been avoided if marines were only slightly weaker. This would have made (at the very least) Terran a far more dynamic and interesting race to play.
Of course, this is all my opinion and I'm sure the flames will start rolling in. My post isn't meant to incite argument - I enjoy playing all races and I'm not qqing about marines from the standpoint of a Zerg or Protoss. To be quite honest, I am disappointed with how Terran, my favourite race, plays out because marines are so incredibly strong.
Which they also have to be because any non-Marine is not strong enough to be the core unit. Tanks are not nearly as good as in BW ( not even close ) unless you get 10+ of them and 1-2 hit an entire army. And even that doesn't work against Protoss because Protoss units close the distance too fast to sieged tanks . Anything else isn't even fit to be a core unit. Helions suck against anything that isn't light , Thors are way too slow and clunky . And that's part of my gripe with SC2 Terran. Those units were nerfed because they were perceived to be too strong. I believe that they weren't - the marines "supporting" them were. There's a reason Terran doesn't have any other "core unit" option - they're all crap when compared to what you get from a marine for 50 minerals. BW Terran was fantastic. They had many versatile builds, none of which revolved entirely around a single unit - certainly not like Terran plays in SC2. Again, I'm not trying to incite an argument. I just think marines are so strong and the cause for a lot of the problems in SC2. They should have been balanced long ago - it's possible that if they were Terrans wouldn't have had a nerf to their rax first builds, rax build times, bunker rushes, tank damage, etc. etc. I really believe an argument can be made that more balanced marines would have prevented many of the nerfs Terrans have faced since beta. I say this as a T and Z player. I would prefer Terran was more rounded and didn't rely on marines/bio for every match up. Completely agreed. Blizzard's unwillingness to touch the sacred cow that is the marine is responsible for it's distortion of every Terran matchup. If the SC2 marine was replaced by the BW marine, then all of the following patch changes would have been unnecessary: Depot before barracks. Bunker build time increase. SCV life decrease. Medivac speed decrease. Nexus/Depot/Hatch/Lair/Pool/Spire/Cavern life increase. They would also die after stimming to: 1 Baneling 1 Fungal 1 Tank volley (hello tank viking~) 2 Blue Flame Hellion shots (and 2 without stimming prepatch :D) 1 Colossus attack Not that I'm entirely against the idea but you'd have to severely change other aspects of the race to even make it work because marines wouldn't be worth much of anything if they only had their bw 40hp and couldn't stutterstep. Oh, and they'd also start at range 4. Most of those other things were designed with OP marines in mind, and wouldn't have to exist in their current forms were it not due to marines. A lot of the game's design decisions were drastically distorted by the need to deal with the marine: Banelings wouldn't have been needed in the game; lurkers would have been included instead. Fungals should counter marines and destroy them in any real situation even if one-shotting weren't an issue. Tanks countering marines is not a problem. See BW. Blue flame hellions aren't all that effective against spread marines. Colossi are stupid units that wouldn't have been needed if not for the marine; we would've had reavers instead. On top of that, those are marine counters, and stims are supposed to be a real cost. What exactly are you expecting, when Zerglings, Zealots, and Hydras die to those same units just as easily? It's not like you don't have other units to protect marines; pure marines shouldn't be a viable composition. On May 29 2012 17:08 Garmer wrote:On May 29 2012 16:35 Salteador Neo wrote:
All terrans want mech to be viable against protoss but don't want TvT to be the Tank-viking boring-as-hell stalemate it was before.
Well you can't have one without the other IMO. speak for you, tvt played with tank viking, for me is far more entertaining than stupid bio-boring shit On May 29 2012 16:03 mizore wrote:On May 29 2012 12:54 sunprince wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 28 2012 05:15 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 00:22 s3rp wrote:On May 27 2012 23:54 Mjolnir wrote:
The problem is the marine.
They're too strong - period. I play Terran and Zerg and I utterly hate how Terran plays in SC2 (compared to BW) simply because bio is so freaking strong - in every match up.. Not only do marines have more life now, they can get a shield to increase that life further - two factors that make them so powerful early/early mid. They have phenomenal dps per cost, and they can go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything given the right micro and spacing.
Yes, anything. There are games where pros split and micro against infestor bane (marine counters) to make the engagement cost effective.
That's absurd. It's a spammable tier 1 unit that is extremely effective throughout the entire game. I know the counter argument here is that zealots or zerglings are also effective late game (drops, warp ins, run bys); but I'd respond to that by saying neither of those units is as effective as late game marines, nor do you find builds where the only unit used to carry the game from early, mid, to late is one of those units.
Example, the ling/infestor builds that Terrans struggle with is a build that's meant to get enough time and save gas to get BLs. Compare that to virtually any non-mech Terran build where marines are the core of the army from start to finish.
Again, I play T and Z. While each race has strengths, Terran marines are so strong it actually makes playing the race feel shitty and one-dimensional. I would argue that so many of Terran's nerfs could have been avoided if marines were only slightly weaker. This would have made (at the very least) Terran a far more dynamic and interesting race to play.
Of course, this is all my opinion and I'm sure the flames will start rolling in. My post isn't meant to incite argument - I enjoy playing all races and I'm not qqing about marines from the standpoint of a Zerg or Protoss. To be quite honest, I am disappointed with how Terran, my favourite race, plays out because marines are so incredibly strong.
Which they also have to be because any non-Marine is not strong enough to be the core unit. Tanks are not nearly as good as in BW ( not even close ) unless you get 10+ of them and 1-2 hit an entire army. And even that doesn't work against Protoss because Protoss units close the distance too fast to sieged tanks . Anything else isn't even fit to be a core unit. Helions suck against anything that isn't light , Thors are way too slow and clunky . And that's part of my gripe with SC2 Terran. Those units were nerfed because they were perceived to be too strong. I believe that they weren't - the marines "supporting" them were. There's a reason Terran doesn't have any other "core unit" option - they're all crap when compared to what you get from a marine for 50 minerals. BW Terran was fantastic. They had many versatile builds, none of which revolved entirely around a single unit - certainly not like Terran plays in SC2. Again, I'm not trying to incite an argument. I just think marines are so strong and the cause for a lot of the problems in SC2. They should have been balanced long ago - it's possible that if they were Terrans wouldn't have had a nerf to their rax first builds, rax build times, bunker rushes, tank damage, etc. etc. I really believe an argument can be made that more balanced marines would have prevented many of the nerfs Terrans have faced since beta. I say this as a T and Z player. I would prefer Terran was more rounded and didn't rely on marines/bio for every match up. Completely agreed. Blizzard's unwillingness to touch the sacred cow that is the marine is responsible for it's distortion of every Terran matchup. If the SC2 marine was replaced by the BW marine, then all of the following patch changes would have been unnecessary: Depot before barracks. Bunker build time increase. SCV life decrease. Medivac speed decrease. Nexus/Depot/Hatch/Lair/Pool/Spire/Cavern life increase. They would also die after stimming to: 1 Baneling 1 Fungal 1 Tank volley (hello tank viking~) 2 Blue Flame Hellion shots (and 2 without stimming prepatch :D) 1 Colossus attack Not that I'm entirely against the idea but you'd have to severely change other aspects of the race to even make it work because marines wouldn't be worth much of anything if they only had their bw 40hp and couldn't stutterstep. Oh, and they'd also start at range 4. the marine buff, come from a decision to make the dropship an healing unit, all the problem come from there, if there were medic in sc2, all this bullshit marine problems would not exist. the medivac is the real guilty False. Marines distort the game long before medivacs enter play. There's a reason why SCV life was nerfed, depot was made a requirement for rax, bunker build times were increased, etc. no, you have not understood question: why they buffed marine?(the +5 hp and the range 5 are a buff, in BW you have to research the range to make them 5 range units, these are significant buff) answer: cuz medic were removed question: why medic were removed? answer: cuz they introduced the medivac medivac is the responsible of the marine buff..
The medic wasn't removed because the medivac was introduced, the medic was removed because of the marauder. Early game medic marauder would have been an insta-win vs protoss, because the marauders would never die. Because of the marauder, they needed to move healing tech up the tech tree, so they put it at the starport. Not everything about the marine is to blame, but most of the problems do seem to stem from the decisions Blizzard made about bio.
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Different games are different. Just because something was at 40 HP in BW doesn't mean it needs to be 40 HP here as well.
Damage comes in a lot faster in SC2 than it does in BW, not from the marine, but from all sources.
Also, all races t1 is broken. Marines might be the strongest when stacked up front but zerglings and zealots have at least as many uses in practical games.
Changing marines won't make the terran or the game more interesting in any way since marines by themselves are a good microable unit. Your focus is so far off the actual problems of the game that it's sad.
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On May 29 2012 18:13 sunprince wrote:Still no. The medivac is the reaper's fault, but the marine buff happened before that.
so they buffed the rines, before all these shits, just for the sake of change something, nice one blizzard
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On May 29 2012 18:07 0neder wrote:
Eliminate combat shield, make tanks 2 supply, problem solved. Game instantly gets more exciting because there are more strategic options.
Those are good starting points, but it's impotant to keep in mind that marines distort the game before shields come into play.
From the very start, marines attack ~19% faster and get a free range upgrade compared to their BW counterparts. Compare this to unupgraded Zerglings attacking 21% slower compared to BW, and the preponderance of marine/SCV all-ins and bunker rushes in SC2's early history makes perfect sense.
For the sake of comparison, Zealots also attack 25% faster than their BW counterparts, but lost 10 shield and build 5 game seconds slower to compensate.
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On May 29 2012 18:16 Dalavita wrote:
Different games are different. Just because something was at 40 HP in BW doesn't mean it needs to be 40 HP here as well.
Damage comes in a lot faster in SC2 than it does in BW, not from the marine, but from all sources.
Also, all races t1 is broken. Marines might be the strongest when stacked up front but zerglings and zealots have at least as many uses in practical games.
Changing marines won't make the terran or the game more interesting in any way since marines by themselves are a good microable unit. Your focus is so far off the actual problems of the game that it's sad.
the problem is that, they buffed only the marine from BW, instead the tank and the BC, have been nerfed to death
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On May 29 2012 17:54 sunprince wrote:
Most of those other things were designed with OP marines in mind, and wouldn't have to exist in their current forms were it not due to marines. A lot of the game's design decisions were drastically distorted by the need to deal with the marine:
Banelings wouldn't have been needed in the game; lurkers would have been included instead.
Fungals should counter marines and destroy them in any real situation even if one-shotting weren't an issue.
Tanks countering marines is not a problem. See BW.
Blue flame hellions aren't all that effective against spread marines.
Colossi are stupid units that wouldn't have been needed if not for the marine; we would've had reavers instead.
On top of that, those are marine counters, and stims are supposed to be a real cost. What exactly are you expecting, when Zerglings, Zealots, and Hydras die to those same units just as easily? It's not like you don't have other units to protect marines; pure marines shouldn't be a viable composition.
This is basically my point though. If you want to nerf marines like that severe changes need to be made to the game and it's not as simple as what blizzard was supposedly experimenting with in the past (10% damage reduction iirc?) All I'm trying to say is the game isn't nearly as bad off as this thread would make it sound like, and that any proposed change is going to snowball the game further away from where it could be if we didn't have to deal with constant patching.
I do love how your suggestions are basically make a 3d bw though~ You do know that people do still play original bw right? I'm sure you can find games there.
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On May 29 2012 18:15 Jackbo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 18:04 Garmer wrote:On May 29 2012 17:54 sunprince wrote:On May 29 2012 13:08 oxxo wrote:
Marines stopped being 'OP' the moment people realized they couldn't sit at 0/0 vs 3/3 marines. Pretty silly to talk about them. Bullshit. Marines are still the backbone of every Terran matchup because so much of SC2 Terran's power is invested into a single unit and other Terran assets are underpowered to compensate. On May 29 2012 16:03 mizore wrote:On May 29 2012 12:54 sunprince wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 28 2012 05:15 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 00:22 s3rp wrote:On May 27 2012 23:54 Mjolnir wrote:
The problem is the marine.
They're too strong - period. I play Terran and Zerg and I utterly hate how Terran plays in SC2 (compared to BW) simply because bio is so freaking strong - in every match up.. Not only do marines have more life now, they can get a shield to increase that life further - two factors that make them so powerful early/early mid. They have phenomenal dps per cost, and they can go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything given the right micro and spacing.
Yes, anything. There are games where pros split and micro against infestor bane (marine counters) to make the engagement cost effective.
That's absurd. It's a spammable tier 1 unit that is extremely effective throughout the entire game. I know the counter argument here is that zealots or zerglings are also effective late game (drops, warp ins, run bys); but I'd respond to that by saying neither of those units is as effective as late game marines, nor do you find builds where the only unit used to carry the game from early, mid, to late is one of those units.
Example, the ling/infestor builds that Terrans struggle with is a build that's meant to get enough time and save gas to get BLs. Compare that to virtually any non-mech Terran build where marines are the core of the army from start to finish.
Again, I play T and Z. While each race has strengths, Terran marines are so strong it actually makes playing the race feel shitty and one-dimensional. I would argue that so many of Terran's nerfs could have been avoided if marines were only slightly weaker. This would have made (at the very least) Terran a far more dynamic and interesting race to play.
Of course, this is all my opinion and I'm sure the flames will start rolling in. My post isn't meant to incite argument - I enjoy playing all races and I'm not qqing about marines from the standpoint of a Zerg or Protoss. To be quite honest, I am disappointed with how Terran, my favourite race, plays out because marines are so incredibly strong.
Which they also have to be because any non-Marine is not strong enough to be the core unit. Tanks are not nearly as good as in BW ( not even close ) unless you get 10+ of them and 1-2 hit an entire army. And even that doesn't work against Protoss because Protoss units close the distance too fast to sieged tanks . Anything else isn't even fit to be a core unit. Helions suck against anything that isn't light , Thors are way too slow and clunky . And that's part of my gripe with SC2 Terran. Those units were nerfed because they were perceived to be too strong. I believe that they weren't - the marines "supporting" them were. There's a reason Terran doesn't have any other "core unit" option - they're all crap when compared to what you get from a marine for 50 minerals. BW Terran was fantastic. They had many versatile builds, none of which revolved entirely around a single unit - certainly not like Terran plays in SC2. Again, I'm not trying to incite an argument. I just think marines are so strong and the cause for a lot of the problems in SC2. They should have been balanced long ago - it's possible that if they were Terrans wouldn't have had a nerf to their rax first builds, rax build times, bunker rushes, tank damage, etc. etc. I really believe an argument can be made that more balanced marines would have prevented many of the nerfs Terrans have faced since beta. I say this as a T and Z player. I would prefer Terran was more rounded and didn't rely on marines/bio for every match up. Completely agreed. Blizzard's unwillingness to touch the sacred cow that is the marine is responsible for it's distortion of every Terran matchup. If the SC2 marine was replaced by the BW marine, then all of the following patch changes would have been unnecessary: Depot before barracks. Bunker build time increase. SCV life decrease. Medivac speed decrease. Nexus/Depot/Hatch/Lair/Pool/Spire/Cavern life increase. They would also die after stimming to: 1 Baneling 1 Fungal 1 Tank volley (hello tank viking~) 2 Blue Flame Hellion shots (and 2 without stimming prepatch :D) 1 Colossus attack Not that I'm entirely against the idea but you'd have to severely change other aspects of the race to even make it work because marines wouldn't be worth much of anything if they only had their bw 40hp and couldn't stutterstep. Oh, and they'd also start at range 4. Most of those other things were designed with OP marines in mind, and wouldn't have to exist in their current forms were it not due to marines. A lot of the game's design decisions were drastically distorted by the need to deal with the marine: Banelings wouldn't have been needed in the game; lurkers would have been included instead. Fungals should counter marines and destroy them in any real situation even if one-shotting weren't an issue. Tanks countering marines is not a problem. See BW. Blue flame hellions aren't all that effective against spread marines. Colossi are stupid units that wouldn't have been needed if not for the marine; we would've had reavers instead. On top of that, those are marine counters, and stims are supposed to be a real cost. What exactly are you expecting, when Zerglings, Zealots, and Hydras die to those same units just as easily? It's not like you don't have other units to protect marines; pure marines shouldn't be a viable composition. On May 29 2012 17:08 Garmer wrote:On May 29 2012 16:35 Salteador Neo wrote:
All terrans want mech to be viable against protoss but don't want TvT to be the Tank-viking boring-as-hell stalemate it was before.
Well you can't have one without the other IMO. speak for you, tvt played with tank viking, for me is far more entertaining than stupid bio-boring shit On May 29 2012 16:03 mizore wrote:On May 29 2012 12:54 sunprince wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 28 2012 05:15 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 00:22 s3rp wrote:On May 27 2012 23:54 Mjolnir wrote:
The problem is the marine.
They're too strong - period. I play Terran and Zerg and I utterly hate how Terran plays in SC2 (compared to BW) simply because bio is so freaking strong - in every match up.. Not only do marines have more life now, they can get a shield to increase that life further - two factors that make them so powerful early/early mid. They have phenomenal dps per cost, and they can go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything given the right micro and spacing.
Yes, anything. There are games where pros split and micro against infestor bane (marine counters) to make the engagement cost effective.
That's absurd. It's a spammable tier 1 unit that is extremely effective throughout the entire game. I know the counter argument here is that zealots or zerglings are also effective late game (drops, warp ins, run bys); but I'd respond to that by saying neither of those units is as effective as late game marines, nor do you find builds where the only unit used to carry the game from early, mid, to late is one of those units.
Example, the ling/infestor builds that Terrans struggle with is a build that's meant to get enough time and save gas to get BLs. Compare that to virtually any non-mech Terran build where marines are the core of the army from start to finish.
Again, I play T and Z. While each race has strengths, Terran marines are so strong it actually makes playing the race feel shitty and one-dimensional. I would argue that so many of Terran's nerfs could have been avoided if marines were only slightly weaker. This would have made (at the very least) Terran a far more dynamic and interesting race to play.
Of course, this is all my opinion and I'm sure the flames will start rolling in. My post isn't meant to incite argument - I enjoy playing all races and I'm not qqing about marines from the standpoint of a Zerg or Protoss. To be quite honest, I am disappointed with how Terran, my favourite race, plays out because marines are so incredibly strong.
Which they also have to be because any non-Marine is not strong enough to be the core unit. Tanks are not nearly as good as in BW ( not even close ) unless you get 10+ of them and 1-2 hit an entire army. And even that doesn't work against Protoss because Protoss units close the distance too fast to sieged tanks . Anything else isn't even fit to be a core unit. Helions suck against anything that isn't light , Thors are way too slow and clunky . And that's part of my gripe with SC2 Terran. Those units were nerfed because they were perceived to be too strong. I believe that they weren't - the marines "supporting" them were. There's a reason Terran doesn't have any other "core unit" option - they're all crap when compared to what you get from a marine for 50 minerals. BW Terran was fantastic. They had many versatile builds, none of which revolved entirely around a single unit - certainly not like Terran plays in SC2. Again, I'm not trying to incite an argument. I just think marines are so strong and the cause for a lot of the problems in SC2. They should have been balanced long ago - it's possible that if they were Terrans wouldn't have had a nerf to their rax first builds, rax build times, bunker rushes, tank damage, etc. etc. I really believe an argument can be made that more balanced marines would have prevented many of the nerfs Terrans have faced since beta. I say this as a T and Z player. I would prefer Terran was more rounded and didn't rely on marines/bio for every match up. Completely agreed. Blizzard's unwillingness to touch the sacred cow that is the marine is responsible for it's distortion of every Terran matchup. If the SC2 marine was replaced by the BW marine, then all of the following patch changes would have been unnecessary: Depot before barracks. Bunker build time increase. SCV life decrease. Medivac speed decrease. Nexus/Depot/Hatch/Lair/Pool/Spire/Cavern life increase. They would also die after stimming to: 1 Baneling 1 Fungal 1 Tank volley (hello tank viking~) 2 Blue Flame Hellion shots (and 2 without stimming prepatch :D) 1 Colossus attack Not that I'm entirely against the idea but you'd have to severely change other aspects of the race to even make it work because marines wouldn't be worth much of anything if they only had their bw 40hp and couldn't stutterstep. Oh, and they'd also start at range 4. the marine buff, come from a decision to make the dropship an healing unit, all the problem come from there, if there were medic in sc2, all this bullshit marine problems would not exist. the medivac is the real guilty False. Marines distort the game long before medivacs enter play. There's a reason why SCV life was nerfed, depot was made a requirement for rax, bunker build times were increased, etc. no, you have not understood question: why they buffed marine?(the +5 hp and the range 5 are a buff, in BW you have to research the range to make them 5 range units, these are significant buff) answer: cuz medic were removed question: why medic were removed? answer: cuz they introduced the medivac medivac is the responsible of the marine buff.. The medic wasn't removed because the medivac was introduced, the medic was removed because of the marauder. Early game medic marauder would have been an insta-win vs protoss, because the marauders would never die. Because of the marauder, they needed to move healing tech up the tech tree, so they put it at the starport. Not everything about the marine is to blame, but most of the problems do seem to stem from the decisions Blizzard made about bio.
You're making shit up. In Dustin Browder's Q&A session with Starcraftwire.com in June 2008, he specifically stated that medivacs were introduced to keep up with the reaper, to give Terran more flexibility.
On May 29 2012 18:16 Dalavita wrote:
Different games are different. Just because something was at 40 HP in BW doesn't mean it needs to be 40 HP here as well.
Damage comes in a lot faster in SC2 than it does in BW, not from the marine, but from all sources.
Also, all races t1 is broken. Marines might be the strongest when stacked up front but zerglings and zealots have at least as many uses in practical games.
Changing marines won't make the terran or the game more interesting in any way since marines by themselves are a good microable unit. Your focus is so far off the actual problems of the game that it's sad.
You have no idea what you're talking about. Many of the key problems with SC2's design stem from sacred cows that distort the game around them. A ton of Terran's power is invested into marines, and everything else had to be nerfed to compensate; if this was fixed, then Terran would have far more flexibility because their power would be better distributed across its units. Damage is far higher in SC2 from all sources (well, except the Zergling) because the marine was the starting point that made it so. Also, comparing zerglings and zealots to marines is just laughable.
On May 29 2012 18:25 mizore wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 17:54 sunprince wrote:
Most of those other things were designed with OP marines in mind, and wouldn't have to exist in their current forms were it not due to marines. A lot of the game's design decisions were drastically distorted by the need to deal with the marine:
Banelings wouldn't have been needed in the game; lurkers would have been included instead.
Fungals should counter marines and destroy them in any real situation even if one-shotting weren't an issue.
Tanks countering marines is not a problem. See BW.
Blue flame hellions aren't all that effective against spread marines.
Colossi are stupid units that wouldn't have been needed if not for the marine; we would've had reavers instead.
On top of that, those are marine counters, and stims are supposed to be a real cost. What exactly are you expecting, when Zerglings, Zealots, and Hydras die to those same units just as easily? It's not like you don't have other units to protect marines; pure marines shouldn't be a viable composition. This is basically my point though. If you want to nerf marines like that severe changes need to be made to the game and it's not as simple as what blizzard was supposedly experimenting with in the past (10% damage reduction iirc?) All I'm trying to say is the game isn't nearly as bad off as this thread would make it sound like, and that any proposed change is going to snowball the game further away from where it could be if we didn't have to deal with constant patching. I do love how your suggestions are basically make a 3d bw though~ You do know that people do still play original bw right? I'm sure you can find games there.
Yes, obviously Terran would need to redesigned around balanced marines. The point I'm making is that this would be a good thing. While we're at it, we can also redesign Zerg around balanced Queens and Protoss around no colossi.
Your attempt to derail this into a BW vs SC2 is a pathetic red herring. Balanced marines ≠ 3D BW.
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On May 29 2012 18:26 sunprince wrote:
Yes, obviously Terran would need to redesigned around balanced marines. The point I'm making is that this would be a good thing. While we're at it, we can also redesign Zerg around balanced Queens and Protoss around no colossi.
Your attempt to derail this into a BW vs SC2 is a pathetic red herring. Balanced marines ≠ 3D BW.
You cite replacing banelings with lurkers, colossus with reaver, and making marines into their bw counterparts as well as citing that heavy tank play in tvt is just like bw and therefor ok, and I'm the one derailing this into an sc2 vs bw topic?
Besides that, changes like those are too massive to put into a patch, especially with all that's currently invested into sc2's proscene. Maybe down the road in lotv, because right now I can guarantee almost everything you have a problem with is going to make it into hots. At that point you might as well try to make a custom map to propose your changes and generate actual data that you can base these conclusions off of instead of waxing theorycraft on how it would be so much better. But hey, putting on airs like you know better than everybody else is the cool thing to do these days yeah?
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I agree that marines as they are now hurts gamedesign and in some way terran.
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Thought I was in the TL vs Zenex thread sorry T.T
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On May 29 2012 18:26 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 18:15 Jackbo wrote:On May 29 2012 18:04 Garmer wrote:On May 29 2012 17:54 sunprince wrote:On May 29 2012 13:08 oxxo wrote:
Marines stopped being 'OP' the moment people realized they couldn't sit at 0/0 vs 3/3 marines. Pretty silly to talk about them. Bullshit. Marines are still the backbone of every Terran matchup because so much of SC2 Terran's power is invested into a single unit and other Terran assets are underpowered to compensate. On May 29 2012 16:03 mizore wrote:On May 29 2012 12:54 sunprince wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 28 2012 05:15 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 00:22 s3rp wrote:On May 27 2012 23:54 Mjolnir wrote:
The problem is the marine.
They're too strong - period. I play Terran and Zerg and I utterly hate how Terran plays in SC2 (compared to BW) simply because bio is so freaking strong - in every match up.. Not only do marines have more life now, they can get a shield to increase that life further - two factors that make them so powerful early/early mid. They have phenomenal dps per cost, and they can go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything given the right micro and spacing.
Yes, anything. There are games where pros split and micro against infestor bane (marine counters) to make the engagement cost effective.
That's absurd. It's a spammable tier 1 unit that is extremely effective throughout the entire game. I know the counter argument here is that zealots or zerglings are also effective late game (drops, warp ins, run bys); but I'd respond to that by saying neither of those units is as effective as late game marines, nor do you find builds where the only unit used to carry the game from early, mid, to late is one of those units.
Example, the ling/infestor builds that Terrans struggle with is a build that's meant to get enough time and save gas to get BLs. Compare that to virtually any non-mech Terran build where marines are the core of the army from start to finish.
Again, I play T and Z. While each race has strengths, Terran marines are so strong it actually makes playing the race feel shitty and one-dimensional. I would argue that so many of Terran's nerfs could have been avoided if marines were only slightly weaker. This would have made (at the very least) Terran a far more dynamic and interesting race to play.
Of course, this is all my opinion and I'm sure the flames will start rolling in. My post isn't meant to incite argument - I enjoy playing all races and I'm not qqing about marines from the standpoint of a Zerg or Protoss. To be quite honest, I am disappointed with how Terran, my favourite race, plays out because marines are so incredibly strong.
Which they also have to be because any non-Marine is not strong enough to be the core unit. Tanks are not nearly as good as in BW ( not even close ) unless you get 10+ of them and 1-2 hit an entire army. And even that doesn't work against Protoss because Protoss units close the distance too fast to sieged tanks . Anything else isn't even fit to be a core unit. Helions suck against anything that isn't light , Thors are way too slow and clunky . And that's part of my gripe with SC2 Terran. Those units were nerfed because they were perceived to be too strong. I believe that they weren't - the marines "supporting" them were. There's a reason Terran doesn't have any other "core unit" option - they're all crap when compared to what you get from a marine for 50 minerals. BW Terran was fantastic. They had many versatile builds, none of which revolved entirely around a single unit - certainly not like Terran plays in SC2. Again, I'm not trying to incite an argument. I just think marines are so strong and the cause for a lot of the problems in SC2. They should have been balanced long ago - it's possible that if they were Terrans wouldn't have had a nerf to their rax first builds, rax build times, bunker rushes, tank damage, etc. etc. I really believe an argument can be made that more balanced marines would have prevented many of the nerfs Terrans have faced since beta. I say this as a T and Z player. I would prefer Terran was more rounded and didn't rely on marines/bio for every match up. Completely agreed. Blizzard's unwillingness to touch the sacred cow that is the marine is responsible for it's distortion of every Terran matchup. If the SC2 marine was replaced by the BW marine, then all of the following patch changes would have been unnecessary: Depot before barracks. Bunker build time increase. SCV life decrease. Medivac speed decrease. Nexus/Depot/Hatch/Lair/Pool/Spire/Cavern life increase. They would also die after stimming to: 1 Baneling 1 Fungal 1 Tank volley (hello tank viking~) 2 Blue Flame Hellion shots (and 2 without stimming prepatch :D) 1 Colossus attack Not that I'm entirely against the idea but you'd have to severely change other aspects of the race to even make it work because marines wouldn't be worth much of anything if they only had their bw 40hp and couldn't stutterstep. Oh, and they'd also start at range 4. Most of those other things were designed with OP marines in mind, and wouldn't have to exist in their current forms were it not due to marines. A lot of the game's design decisions were drastically distorted by the need to deal with the marine: Banelings wouldn't have been needed in the game; lurkers would have been included instead. Fungals should counter marines and destroy them in any real situation even if one-shotting weren't an issue. Tanks countering marines is not a problem. See BW. Blue flame hellions aren't all that effective against spread marines. Colossi are stupid units that wouldn't have been needed if not for the marine; we would've had reavers instead. On top of that, those are marine counters, and stims are supposed to be a real cost. What exactly are you expecting, when Zerglings, Zealots, and Hydras die to those same units just as easily? It's not like you don't have other units to protect marines; pure marines shouldn't be a viable composition. On May 29 2012 17:08 Garmer wrote:On May 29 2012 16:35 Salteador Neo wrote:
All terrans want mech to be viable against protoss but don't want TvT to be the Tank-viking boring-as-hell stalemate it was before.
Well you can't have one without the other IMO. speak for you, tvt played with tank viking, for me is far more entertaining than stupid bio-boring shit On May 29 2012 16:03 mizore wrote:On May 29 2012 12:54 sunprince wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 28 2012 05:15 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 00:22 s3rp wrote:On May 27 2012 23:54 Mjolnir wrote:
The problem is the marine.
They're too strong - period. I play Terran and Zerg and I utterly hate how Terran plays in SC2 (compared to BW) simply because bio is so freaking strong - in every match up.. Not only do marines have more life now, they can get a shield to increase that life further - two factors that make them so powerful early/early mid. They have phenomenal dps per cost, and they can go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything given the right micro and spacing.
Yes, anything. There are games where pros split and micro against infestor bane (marine counters) to make the engagement cost effective.
That's absurd. It's a spammable tier 1 unit that is extremely effective throughout the entire game. I know the counter argument here is that zealots or zerglings are also effective late game (drops, warp ins, run bys); but I'd respond to that by saying neither of those units is as effective as late game marines, nor do you find builds where the only unit used to carry the game from early, mid, to late is one of those units.
Example, the ling/infestor builds that Terrans struggle with is a build that's meant to get enough time and save gas to get BLs. Compare that to virtually any non-mech Terran build where marines are the core of the army from start to finish.
Again, I play T and Z. While each race has strengths, Terran marines are so strong it actually makes playing the race feel shitty and one-dimensional. I would argue that so many of Terran's nerfs could have been avoided if marines were only slightly weaker. This would have made (at the very least) Terran a far more dynamic and interesting race to play.
Of course, this is all my opinion and I'm sure the flames will start rolling in. My post isn't meant to incite argument - I enjoy playing all races and I'm not qqing about marines from the standpoint of a Zerg or Protoss. To be quite honest, I am disappointed with how Terran, my favourite race, plays out because marines are so incredibly strong.
Which they also have to be because any non-Marine is not strong enough to be the core unit. Tanks are not nearly as good as in BW ( not even close ) unless you get 10+ of them and 1-2 hit an entire army. And even that doesn't work against Protoss because Protoss units close the distance too fast to sieged tanks . Anything else isn't even fit to be a core unit. Helions suck against anything that isn't light , Thors are way too slow and clunky . And that's part of my gripe with SC2 Terran. Those units were nerfed because they were perceived to be too strong. I believe that they weren't - the marines "supporting" them were. There's a reason Terran doesn't have any other "core unit" option - they're all crap when compared to what you get from a marine for 50 minerals. BW Terran was fantastic. They had many versatile builds, none of which revolved entirely around a single unit - certainly not like Terran plays in SC2. Again, I'm not trying to incite an argument. I just think marines are so strong and the cause for a lot of the problems in SC2. They should have been balanced long ago - it's possible that if they were Terrans wouldn't have had a nerf to their rax first builds, rax build times, bunker rushes, tank damage, etc. etc. I really believe an argument can be made that more balanced marines would have prevented many of the nerfs Terrans have faced since beta. I say this as a T and Z player. I would prefer Terran was more rounded and didn't rely on marines/bio for every match up. Completely agreed. Blizzard's unwillingness to touch the sacred cow that is the marine is responsible for it's distortion of every Terran matchup. If the SC2 marine was replaced by the BW marine, then all of the following patch changes would have been unnecessary: Depot before barracks. Bunker build time increase. SCV life decrease. Medivac speed decrease. Nexus/Depot/Hatch/Lair/Pool/Spire/Cavern life increase. They would also die after stimming to: 1 Baneling 1 Fungal 1 Tank volley (hello tank viking~) 2 Blue Flame Hellion shots (and 2 without stimming prepatch :D) 1 Colossus attack Not that I'm entirely against the idea but you'd have to severely change other aspects of the race to even make it work because marines wouldn't be worth much of anything if they only had their bw 40hp and couldn't stutterstep. Oh, and they'd also start at range 4. the marine buff, come from a decision to make the dropship an healing unit, all the problem come from there, if there were medic in sc2, all this bullshit marine problems would not exist. the medivac is the real guilty False. Marines distort the game long before medivacs enter play. There's a reason why SCV life was nerfed, depot was made a requirement for rax, bunker build times were increased, etc. no, you have not understood question: why they buffed marine?(the +5 hp and the range 5 are a buff, in BW you have to research the range to make them 5 range units, these are significant buff) answer: cuz medic were removed question: why medic were removed? answer: cuz they introduced the medivac medivac is the responsible of the marine buff.. The medic wasn't removed because the medivac was introduced, the medic was removed because of the marauder. Early game medic marauder would have been an insta-win vs protoss, because the marauders would never die. Because of the marauder, they needed to move healing tech up the tech tree, so they put it at the starport. Not everything about the marine is to blame, but most of the problems do seem to stem from the decisions Blizzard made about bio. You're making shit up. In Dustin Browder's Q&A session with Starcraftwire.com in June 2008, he specifically stated that medivacs were introduced to keep up with the reaper, to give Terran more flexibility. Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 18:16 Dalavita wrote:
Different games are different. Just because something was at 40 HP in BW doesn't mean it needs to be 40 HP here as well.
Damage comes in a lot faster in SC2 than it does in BW, not from the marine, but from all sources.
Also, all races t1 is broken. Marines might be the strongest when stacked up front but zerglings and zealots have at least as many uses in practical games.
Changing marines won't make the terran or the game more interesting in any way since marines by themselves are a good microable unit. Your focus is so far off the actual problems of the game that it's sad. You have no idea what you're talking about. Many of the key problems with SC2's design stem from sacred cows that distort the game around them. A ton of Terran's power is invested into marines, and everything else had to be nerfed to compensate; if this was fixed, then Terran would have far more flexibility because their power would be better distributed across its units. Damage is far higher in SC2 from all sources (well, except the Zergling) because the marine was the starting point that made it so. Also, comparing zerglings and zealots to marines is just laughable. Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 18:25 mizore wrote:On May 29 2012 17:54 sunprince wrote:
Most of those other things were designed with OP marines in mind, and wouldn't have to exist in their current forms were it not due to marines. A lot of the game's design decisions were drastically distorted by the need to deal with the marine:
Banelings wouldn't have been needed in the game; lurkers would have been included instead.
Fungals should counter marines and destroy them in any real situation even if one-shotting weren't an issue.
Tanks countering marines is not a problem. See BW.
Blue flame hellions aren't all that effective against spread marines.
Colossi are stupid units that wouldn't have been needed if not for the marine; we would've had reavers instead.
On top of that, those are marine counters, and stims are supposed to be a real cost. What exactly are you expecting, when Zerglings, Zealots, and Hydras die to those same units just as easily? It's not like you don't have other units to protect marines; pure marines shouldn't be a viable composition. This is basically my point though. If you want to nerf marines like that severe changes need to be made to the game and it's not as simple as what blizzard was supposedly experimenting with in the past (10% damage reduction iirc?) All I'm trying to say is the game isn't nearly as bad off as this thread would make it sound like, and that any proposed change is going to snowball the game further away from where it could be if we didn't have to deal with constant patching. I do love how your suggestions are basically make a 3d bw though~ You do know that people do still play original bw right? I'm sure you can find games there. Yes, obviously Terran would need to redesigned around balanced marines. The point I'm making is that this would be a good thing. While we're at it, we can also redesign Zerg around balanced Queens and Protoss around no colossi. Your attempt to derail this into a BW vs SC2 is a pathetic red herring. Balanced marines ≠ 3D BW.
This is the highest quality post I´ve ever read on TL.
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Marines for terran are basicly what warpgates or forcefields are for protoss - they are the sole reason why you can't buff anything else that is weak right now because it would become ridiculously imbalanced.
Buff tanks? Say hello to - now really - unstoppable 111-pushes in TvP. Buff, say, DTs? Not possible, the insta-warp-in would mean terribly strong harass.
Personally, I'm pretty disgusted that Blizz seems to be too afraid for drastic changes. NOW is the time with HotS where you can try stuff. With LotV it's too late, this add-on has to be bullet-proof. With LotV comes the final major unit-balance, afterwards you can only do minor changes. But with HotS Blizz has the chance to try something, to test things even if they turn out horrible. Because even if the game gets screwed up they can fix it with LotV.
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On May 29 2012 18:26 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 18:15 Jackbo wrote:On May 29 2012 18:04 Garmer wrote:On May 29 2012 17:54 sunprince wrote:On May 29 2012 13:08 oxxo wrote:
Marines stopped being 'OP' the moment people realized they couldn't sit at 0/0 vs 3/3 marines. Pretty silly to talk about them. Bullshit. Marines are still the backbone of every Terran matchup because so much of SC2 Terran's power is invested into a single unit and other Terran assets are underpowered to compensate. On May 29 2012 16:03 mizore wrote:On May 29 2012 12:54 sunprince wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 28 2012 05:15 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 00:22 s3rp wrote:On May 27 2012 23:54 Mjolnir wrote:
The problem is the marine.
They're too strong - period. I play Terran and Zerg and I utterly hate how Terran plays in SC2 (compared to BW) simply because bio is so freaking strong - in every match up.. Not only do marines have more life now, they can get a shield to increase that life further - two factors that make them so powerful early/early mid. They have phenomenal dps per cost, and they can go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything given the right micro and spacing.
Yes, anything. There are games where pros split and micro against infestor bane (marine counters) to make the engagement cost effective.
That's absurd. It's a spammable tier 1 unit that is extremely effective throughout the entire game. I know the counter argument here is that zealots or zerglings are also effective late game (drops, warp ins, run bys); but I'd respond to that by saying neither of those units is as effective as late game marines, nor do you find builds where the only unit used to carry the game from early, mid, to late is one of those units.
Example, the ling/infestor builds that Terrans struggle with is a build that's meant to get enough time and save gas to get BLs. Compare that to virtually any non-mech Terran build where marines are the core of the army from start to finish.
Again, I play T and Z. While each race has strengths, Terran marines are so strong it actually makes playing the race feel shitty and one-dimensional. I would argue that so many of Terran's nerfs could have been avoided if marines were only slightly weaker. This would have made (at the very least) Terran a far more dynamic and interesting race to play.
Of course, this is all my opinion and I'm sure the flames will start rolling in. My post isn't meant to incite argument - I enjoy playing all races and I'm not qqing about marines from the standpoint of a Zerg or Protoss. To be quite honest, I am disappointed with how Terran, my favourite race, plays out because marines are so incredibly strong.
Which they also have to be because any non-Marine is not strong enough to be the core unit. Tanks are not nearly as good as in BW ( not even close ) unless you get 10+ of them and 1-2 hit an entire army. And even that doesn't work against Protoss because Protoss units close the distance too fast to sieged tanks . Anything else isn't even fit to be a core unit. Helions suck against anything that isn't light , Thors are way too slow and clunky . And that's part of my gripe with SC2 Terran. Those units were nerfed because they were perceived to be too strong. I believe that they weren't - the marines "supporting" them were. There's a reason Terran doesn't have any other "core unit" option - they're all crap when compared to what you get from a marine for 50 minerals. BW Terran was fantastic. They had many versatile builds, none of which revolved entirely around a single unit - certainly not like Terran plays in SC2. Again, I'm not trying to incite an argument. I just think marines are so strong and the cause for a lot of the problems in SC2. They should have been balanced long ago - it's possible that if they were Terrans wouldn't have had a nerf to their rax first builds, rax build times, bunker rushes, tank damage, etc. etc. I really believe an argument can be made that more balanced marines would have prevented many of the nerfs Terrans have faced since beta. I say this as a T and Z player. I would prefer Terran was more rounded and didn't rely on marines/bio for every match up. Completely agreed. Blizzard's unwillingness to touch the sacred cow that is the marine is responsible for it's distortion of every Terran matchup. If the SC2 marine was replaced by the BW marine, then all of the following patch changes would have been unnecessary: Depot before barracks. Bunker build time increase. SCV life decrease. Medivac speed decrease. Nexus/Depot/Hatch/Lair/Pool/Spire/Cavern life increase. They would also die after stimming to: 1 Baneling 1 Fungal 1 Tank volley (hello tank viking~) 2 Blue Flame Hellion shots (and 2 without stimming prepatch :D) 1 Colossus attack Not that I'm entirely against the idea but you'd have to severely change other aspects of the race to even make it work because marines wouldn't be worth much of anything if they only had their bw 40hp and couldn't stutterstep. Oh, and they'd also start at range 4. Most of those other things were designed with OP marines in mind, and wouldn't have to exist in their current forms were it not due to marines. A lot of the game's design decisions were drastically distorted by the need to deal with the marine: Banelings wouldn't have been needed in the game; lurkers would have been included instead. Fungals should counter marines and destroy them in any real situation even if one-shotting weren't an issue. Tanks countering marines is not a problem. See BW. Blue flame hellions aren't all that effective against spread marines. Colossi are stupid units that wouldn't have been needed if not for the marine; we would've had reavers instead. On top of that, those are marine counters, and stims are supposed to be a real cost. What exactly are you expecting, when Zerglings, Zealots, and Hydras die to those same units just as easily? It's not like you don't have other units to protect marines; pure marines shouldn't be a viable composition. On May 29 2012 17:08 Garmer wrote:On May 29 2012 16:35 Salteador Neo wrote:
All terrans want mech to be viable against protoss but don't want TvT to be the Tank-viking boring-as-hell stalemate it was before.
Well you can't have one without the other IMO. speak for you, tvt played with tank viking, for me is far more entertaining than stupid bio-boring shit On May 29 2012 16:03 mizore wrote:On May 29 2012 12:54 sunprince wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 28 2012 05:15 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 00:22 s3rp wrote:On May 27 2012 23:54 Mjolnir wrote:
The problem is the marine.
They're too strong - period. I play Terran and Zerg and I utterly hate how Terran plays in SC2 (compared to BW) simply because bio is so freaking strong - in every match up.. Not only do marines have more life now, they can get a shield to increase that life further - two factors that make them so powerful early/early mid. They have phenomenal dps per cost, and they can go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything given the right micro and spacing.
Yes, anything. There are games where pros split and micro against infestor bane (marine counters) to make the engagement cost effective.
That's absurd. It's a spammable tier 1 unit that is extremely effective throughout the entire game. I know the counter argument here is that zealots or zerglings are also effective late game (drops, warp ins, run bys); but I'd respond to that by saying neither of those units is as effective as late game marines, nor do you find builds where the only unit used to carry the game from early, mid, to late is one of those units.
Example, the ling/infestor builds that Terrans struggle with is a build that's meant to get enough time and save gas to get BLs. Compare that to virtually any non-mech Terran build where marines are the core of the army from start to finish.
Again, I play T and Z. While each race has strengths, Terran marines are so strong it actually makes playing the race feel shitty and one-dimensional. I would argue that so many of Terran's nerfs could have been avoided if marines were only slightly weaker. This would have made (at the very least) Terran a far more dynamic and interesting race to play.
Of course, this is all my opinion and I'm sure the flames will start rolling in. My post isn't meant to incite argument - I enjoy playing all races and I'm not qqing about marines from the standpoint of a Zerg or Protoss. To be quite honest, I am disappointed with how Terran, my favourite race, plays out because marines are so incredibly strong.
Which they also have to be because any non-Marine is not strong enough to be the core unit. Tanks are not nearly as good as in BW ( not even close ) unless you get 10+ of them and 1-2 hit an entire army. And even that doesn't work against Protoss because Protoss units close the distance too fast to sieged tanks . Anything else isn't even fit to be a core unit. Helions suck against anything that isn't light , Thors are way too slow and clunky . And that's part of my gripe with SC2 Terran. Those units were nerfed because they were perceived to be too strong. I believe that they weren't - the marines "supporting" them were. There's a reason Terran doesn't have any other "core unit" option - they're all crap when compared to what you get from a marine for 50 minerals. BW Terran was fantastic. They had many versatile builds, none of which revolved entirely around a single unit - certainly not like Terran plays in SC2. Again, I'm not trying to incite an argument. I just think marines are so strong and the cause for a lot of the problems in SC2. They should have been balanced long ago - it's possible that if they were Terrans wouldn't have had a nerf to their rax first builds, rax build times, bunker rushes, tank damage, etc. etc. I really believe an argument can be made that more balanced marines would have prevented many of the nerfs Terrans have faced since beta. I say this as a T and Z player. I would prefer Terran was more rounded and didn't rely on marines/bio for every match up. Completely agreed. Blizzard's unwillingness to touch the sacred cow that is the marine is responsible for it's distortion of every Terran matchup. If the SC2 marine was replaced by the BW marine, then all of the following patch changes would have been unnecessary: Depot before barracks. Bunker build time increase. SCV life decrease. Medivac speed decrease. Nexus/Depot/Hatch/Lair/Pool/Spire/Cavern life increase. They would also die after stimming to: 1 Baneling 1 Fungal 1 Tank volley (hello tank viking~) 2 Blue Flame Hellion shots (and 2 without stimming prepatch :D) 1 Colossus attack Not that I'm entirely against the idea but you'd have to severely change other aspects of the race to even make it work because marines wouldn't be worth much of anything if they only had their bw 40hp and couldn't stutterstep. Oh, and they'd also start at range 4. the marine buff, come from a decision to make the dropship an healing unit, all the problem come from there, if there were medic in sc2, all this bullshit marine problems would not exist. the medivac is the real guilty False. Marines distort the game long before medivacs enter play. There's a reason why SCV life was nerfed, depot was made a requirement for rax, bunker build times were increased, etc. no, you have not understood question: why they buffed marine?(the +5 hp and the range 5 are a buff, in BW you have to research the range to make them 5 range units, these are significant buff) answer: cuz medic were removed question: why medic were removed? answer: cuz they introduced the medivac medivac is the responsible of the marine buff.. The medic wasn't removed because the medivac was introduced, the medic was removed because of the marauder. Early game medic marauder would have been an insta-win vs protoss, because the marauders would never die. Because of the marauder, they needed to move healing tech up the tech tree, so they put it at the starport. Not everything about the marine is to blame, but most of the problems do seem to stem from the decisions Blizzard made about bio. You're making shit up. In Dustin Browder's Q&A session with Starcraftwire.com in June 2008, he specifically stated that medivacs were introduced to keep up with the reaper, to give Terran more flexibility. Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 18:16 Dalavita wrote:
Different games are different. Just because something was at 40 HP in BW doesn't mean it needs to be 40 HP here as well.
Damage comes in a lot faster in SC2 than it does in BW, not from the marine, but from all sources.
Also, all races t1 is broken. Marines might be the strongest when stacked up front but zerglings and zealots have at least as many uses in practical games.
Changing marines won't make the terran or the game more interesting in any way since marines by themselves are a good microable unit. Your focus is so far off the actual problems of the game that it's sad. You have no idea what you're talking about. Many of the key problems with SC2's design stem from sacred cows that distort the game around them. A ton of Terran's power is invested into marines, and everything else had to be nerfed to compensate; if this was fixed, then Terran would have far more flexibility because their power would be better distributed across its units. Damage is far higher in SC2 from all sources (well, except the Zergling) because the marine was the starting point that made it so. Also, comparing zerglings and zealots to marines is just laughable. Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 18:25 mizore wrote:On May 29 2012 17:54 sunprince wrote:
Most of those other things were designed with OP marines in mind, and wouldn't have to exist in their current forms were it not due to marines. A lot of the game's design decisions were drastically distorted by the need to deal with the marine:
Banelings wouldn't have been needed in the game; lurkers would have been included instead.
Fungals should counter marines and destroy them in any real situation even if one-shotting weren't an issue.
Tanks countering marines is not a problem. See BW.
Blue flame hellions aren't all that effective against spread marines.
Colossi are stupid units that wouldn't have been needed if not for the marine; we would've had reavers instead.
On top of that, those are marine counters, and stims are supposed to be a real cost. What exactly are you expecting, when Zerglings, Zealots, and Hydras die to those same units just as easily? It's not like you don't have other units to protect marines; pure marines shouldn't be a viable composition. This is basically my point though. If you want to nerf marines like that severe changes need to be made to the game and it's not as simple as what blizzard was supposedly experimenting with in the past (10% damage reduction iirc?) All I'm trying to say is the game isn't nearly as bad off as this thread would make it sound like, and that any proposed change is going to snowball the game further away from where it could be if we didn't have to deal with constant patching. I do love how your suggestions are basically make a 3d bw though~ You do know that people do still play original bw right? I'm sure you can find games there. Yes, obviously Terran would need to redesigned around balanced marines. The point I'm making is that this would be a good thing. While we're at it, we can also redesign Zerg around balanced Queens and Protoss around no colossi. Your attempt to derail this into a BW vs SC2 is a pathetic red herring. Balanced marines ≠ 3D BW.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Making races have core units doesn't mean the game becomes worse. SC2s problems aren't with the marine because the marine makes for good games. Also not comparing zealots and zerglings to marines is laughable and shows that you have no clue what you're talking about.
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On May 29 2012 19:09 Grend wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 18:26 sunprince wrote:On May 29 2012 18:15 Jackbo wrote:On May 29 2012 18:04 Garmer wrote:On May 29 2012 17:54 sunprince wrote:On May 29 2012 13:08 oxxo wrote:
Marines stopped being 'OP' the moment people realized they couldn't sit at 0/0 vs 3/3 marines. Pretty silly to talk about them. Bullshit. Marines are still the backbone of every Terran matchup because so much of SC2 Terran's power is invested into a single unit and other Terran assets are underpowered to compensate. On May 29 2012 16:03 mizore wrote:On May 29 2012 12:54 sunprince wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 28 2012 05:15 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 00:22 s3rp wrote:On May 27 2012 23:54 Mjolnir wrote:
The problem is the marine.
They're too strong - period. I play Terran and Zerg and I utterly hate how Terran plays in SC2 (compared to BW) simply because bio is so freaking strong - in every match up.. Not only do marines have more life now, they can get a shield to increase that life further - two factors that make them so powerful early/early mid. They have phenomenal dps per cost, and they can go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything given the right micro and spacing.
Yes, anything. There are games where pros split and micro against infestor bane (marine counters) to make the engagement cost effective.
That's absurd. It's a spammable tier 1 unit that is extremely effective throughout the entire game. I know the counter argument here is that zealots or zerglings are also effective late game (drops, warp ins, run bys); but I'd respond to that by saying neither of those units is as effective as late game marines, nor do you find builds where the only unit used to carry the game from early, mid, to late is one of those units.
Example, the ling/infestor builds that Terrans struggle with is a build that's meant to get enough time and save gas to get BLs. Compare that to virtually any non-mech Terran build where marines are the core of the army from start to finish.
Again, I play T and Z. While each race has strengths, Terran marines are so strong it actually makes playing the race feel shitty and one-dimensional. I would argue that so many of Terran's nerfs could have been avoided if marines were only slightly weaker. This would have made (at the very least) Terran a far more dynamic and interesting race to play.
Of course, this is all my opinion and I'm sure the flames will start rolling in. My post isn't meant to incite argument - I enjoy playing all races and I'm not qqing about marines from the standpoint of a Zerg or Protoss. To be quite honest, I am disappointed with how Terran, my favourite race, plays out because marines are so incredibly strong.
Which they also have to be because any non-Marine is not strong enough to be the core unit. Tanks are not nearly as good as in BW ( not even close ) unless you get 10+ of them and 1-2 hit an entire army. And even that doesn't work against Protoss because Protoss units close the distance too fast to sieged tanks . Anything else isn't even fit to be a core unit. Helions suck against anything that isn't light , Thors are way too slow and clunky . And that's part of my gripe with SC2 Terran. Those units were nerfed because they were perceived to be too strong. I believe that they weren't - the marines "supporting" them were. There's a reason Terran doesn't have any other "core unit" option - they're all crap when compared to what you get from a marine for 50 minerals. BW Terran was fantastic. They had many versatile builds, none of which revolved entirely around a single unit - certainly not like Terran plays in SC2. Again, I'm not trying to incite an argument. I just think marines are so strong and the cause for a lot of the problems in SC2. They should have been balanced long ago - it's possible that if they were Terrans wouldn't have had a nerf to their rax first builds, rax build times, bunker rushes, tank damage, etc. etc. I really believe an argument can be made that more balanced marines would have prevented many of the nerfs Terrans have faced since beta. I say this as a T and Z player. I would prefer Terran was more rounded and didn't rely on marines/bio for every match up. Completely agreed. Blizzard's unwillingness to touch the sacred cow that is the marine is responsible for it's distortion of every Terran matchup. If the SC2 marine was replaced by the BW marine, then all of the following patch changes would have been unnecessary: Depot before barracks. Bunker build time increase. SCV life decrease. Medivac speed decrease. Nexus/Depot/Hatch/Lair/Pool/Spire/Cavern life increase. They would also die after stimming to: 1 Baneling 1 Fungal 1 Tank volley (hello tank viking~) 2 Blue Flame Hellion shots (and 2 without stimming prepatch :D) 1 Colossus attack Not that I'm entirely against the idea but you'd have to severely change other aspects of the race to even make it work because marines wouldn't be worth much of anything if they only had their bw 40hp and couldn't stutterstep. Oh, and they'd also start at range 4. Most of those other things were designed with OP marines in mind, and wouldn't have to exist in their current forms were it not due to marines. A lot of the game's design decisions were drastically distorted by the need to deal with the marine: Banelings wouldn't have been needed in the game; lurkers would have been included instead. Fungals should counter marines and destroy them in any real situation even if one-shotting weren't an issue. Tanks countering marines is not a problem. See BW. Blue flame hellions aren't all that effective against spread marines. Colossi are stupid units that wouldn't have been needed if not for the marine; we would've had reavers instead. On top of that, those are marine counters, and stims are supposed to be a real cost. What exactly are you expecting, when Zerglings, Zealots, and Hydras die to those same units just as easily? It's not like you don't have other units to protect marines; pure marines shouldn't be a viable composition. On May 29 2012 17:08 Garmer wrote:On May 29 2012 16:35 Salteador Neo wrote:
All terrans want mech to be viable against protoss but don't want TvT to be the Tank-viking boring-as-hell stalemate it was before.
Well you can't have one without the other IMO. speak for you, tvt played with tank viking, for me is far more entertaining than stupid bio-boring shit On May 29 2012 16:03 mizore wrote:On May 29 2012 12:54 sunprince wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 28 2012 05:15 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 00:22 s3rp wrote:On May 27 2012 23:54 Mjolnir wrote:
The problem is the marine.
They're too strong - period. I play Terran and Zerg and I utterly hate how Terran plays in SC2 (compared to BW) simply because bio is so freaking strong - in every match up.. Not only do marines have more life now, they can get a shield to increase that life further - two factors that make them so powerful early/early mid. They have phenomenal dps per cost, and they can go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything given the right micro and spacing.
Yes, anything. There are games where pros split and micro against infestor bane (marine counters) to make the engagement cost effective.
That's absurd. It's a spammable tier 1 unit that is extremely effective throughout the entire game. I know the counter argument here is that zealots or zerglings are also effective late game (drops, warp ins, run bys); but I'd respond to that by saying neither of those units is as effective as late game marines, nor do you find builds where the only unit used to carry the game from early, mid, to late is one of those units.
Example, the ling/infestor builds that Terrans struggle with is a build that's meant to get enough time and save gas to get BLs. Compare that to virtually any non-mech Terran build where marines are the core of the army from start to finish.
Again, I play T and Z. While each race has strengths, Terran marines are so strong it actually makes playing the race feel shitty and one-dimensional. I would argue that so many of Terran's nerfs could have been avoided if marines were only slightly weaker. This would have made (at the very least) Terran a far more dynamic and interesting race to play.
Of course, this is all my opinion and I'm sure the flames will start rolling in. My post isn't meant to incite argument - I enjoy playing all races and I'm not qqing about marines from the standpoint of a Zerg or Protoss. To be quite honest, I am disappointed with how Terran, my favourite race, plays out because marines are so incredibly strong.
Which they also have to be because any non-Marine is not strong enough to be the core unit. Tanks are not nearly as good as in BW ( not even close ) unless you get 10+ of them and 1-2 hit an entire army. And even that doesn't work against Protoss because Protoss units close the distance too fast to sieged tanks . Anything else isn't even fit to be a core unit. Helions suck against anything that isn't light , Thors are way too slow and clunky . And that's part of my gripe with SC2 Terran. Those units were nerfed because they were perceived to be too strong. I believe that they weren't - the marines "supporting" them were. There's a reason Terran doesn't have any other "core unit" option - they're all crap when compared to what you get from a marine for 50 minerals. BW Terran was fantastic. They had many versatile builds, none of which revolved entirely around a single unit - certainly not like Terran plays in SC2. Again, I'm not trying to incite an argument. I just think marines are so strong and the cause for a lot of the problems in SC2. They should have been balanced long ago - it's possible that if they were Terrans wouldn't have had a nerf to their rax first builds, rax build times, bunker rushes, tank damage, etc. etc. I really believe an argument can be made that more balanced marines would have prevented many of the nerfs Terrans have faced since beta. I say this as a T and Z player. I would prefer Terran was more rounded and didn't rely on marines/bio for every match up. Completely agreed. Blizzard's unwillingness to touch the sacred cow that is the marine is responsible for it's distortion of every Terran matchup. If the SC2 marine was replaced by the BW marine, then all of the following patch changes would have been unnecessary: Depot before barracks. Bunker build time increase. SCV life decrease. Medivac speed decrease. Nexus/Depot/Hatch/Lair/Pool/Spire/Cavern life increase. They would also die after stimming to: 1 Baneling 1 Fungal 1 Tank volley (hello tank viking~) 2 Blue Flame Hellion shots (and 2 without stimming prepatch :D) 1 Colossus attack Not that I'm entirely against the idea but you'd have to severely change other aspects of the race to even make it work because marines wouldn't be worth much of anything if they only had their bw 40hp and couldn't stutterstep. Oh, and they'd also start at range 4. the marine buff, come from a decision to make the dropship an healing unit, all the problem come from there, if there were medic in sc2, all this bullshit marine problems would not exist. the medivac is the real guilty False. Marines distort the game long before medivacs enter play. There's a reason why SCV life was nerfed, depot was made a requirement for rax, bunker build times were increased, etc. no, you have not understood question: why they buffed marine?(the +5 hp and the range 5 are a buff, in BW you have to research the range to make them 5 range units, these are significant buff) answer: cuz medic were removed question: why medic were removed? answer: cuz they introduced the medivac medivac is the responsible of the marine buff.. The medic wasn't removed because the medivac was introduced, the medic was removed because of the marauder. Early game medic marauder would have been an insta-win vs protoss, because the marauders would never die. Because of the marauder, they needed to move healing tech up the tech tree, so they put it at the starport. Not everything about the marine is to blame, but most of the problems do seem to stem from the decisions Blizzard made about bio. You're making shit up. In Dustin Browder's Q&A session with Starcraftwire.com in June 2008, he specifically stated that medivacs were introduced to keep up with the reaper, to give Terran more flexibility. On May 29 2012 18:16 Dalavita wrote:
Different games are different. Just because something was at 40 HP in BW doesn't mean it needs to be 40 HP here as well.
Damage comes in a lot faster in SC2 than it does in BW, not from the marine, but from all sources.
Also, all races t1 is broken. Marines might be the strongest when stacked up front but zerglings and zealots have at least as many uses in practical games.
Changing marines won't make the terran or the game more interesting in any way since marines by themselves are a good microable unit. Your focus is so far off the actual problems of the game that it's sad. You have no idea what you're talking about. Many of the key problems with SC2's design stem from sacred cows that distort the game around them. A ton of Terran's power is invested into marines, and everything else had to be nerfed to compensate; if this was fixed, then Terran would have far more flexibility because their power would be better distributed across its units. Damage is far higher in SC2 from all sources (well, except the Zergling) because the marine was the starting point that made it so. Also, comparing zerglings and zealots to marines is just laughable. On May 29 2012 18:25 mizore wrote:On May 29 2012 17:54 sunprince wrote:
Most of those other things were designed with OP marines in mind, and wouldn't have to exist in their current forms were it not due to marines. A lot of the game's design decisions were drastically distorted by the need to deal with the marine:
Banelings wouldn't have been needed in the game; lurkers would have been included instead.
Fungals should counter marines and destroy them in any real situation even if one-shotting weren't an issue.
Tanks countering marines is not a problem. See BW.
Blue flame hellions aren't all that effective against spread marines.
Colossi are stupid units that wouldn't have been needed if not for the marine; we would've had reavers instead.
On top of that, those are marine counters, and stims are supposed to be a real cost. What exactly are you expecting, when Zerglings, Zealots, and Hydras die to those same units just as easily? It's not like you don't have other units to protect marines; pure marines shouldn't be a viable composition. This is basically my point though. If you want to nerf marines like that severe changes need to be made to the game and it's not as simple as what blizzard was supposedly experimenting with in the past (10% damage reduction iirc?) All I'm trying to say is the game isn't nearly as bad off as this thread would make it sound like, and that any proposed change is going to snowball the game further away from where it could be if we didn't have to deal with constant patching. I do love how your suggestions are basically make a 3d bw though~ You do know that people do still play original bw right? I'm sure you can find games there. Yes, obviously Terran would need to redesigned around balanced marines. The point I'm making is that this would be a good thing. While we're at it, we can also redesign Zerg around balanced Queens and Protoss around no colossi. Your attempt to derail this into a BW vs SC2 is a pathetic red herring. Balanced marines ≠ 3D BW. This is the highest quality post I´ve ever read on TL.
Pretty sure you read a post that didn't end a paragraph with "______ is just laughable"
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