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On May 19 2012 00:56 Hypemeup wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 04:04 GloPikkle wrote:
I would also add that these days 3 out of every 4 Masters+ Terran is going for fast 3 OC and it's relatively safe. I would argue that this should not be "standard" safe play as it's extremely greedy economically but with good scouting and control of hellions, is still safe. Please dont state incorrect bullshit. 3OC dies to a plethora of Zerg allins, and with the new ovie speed zerg are not nearly as blind as before against 3OC. Dumb patch overall -_-
I didn't say it was bulletproof, I said it was safe. Would GSL Terrans play the style if it wasn't? There's no opening build that's immune from every all-in that's strong economically.
And even if someone scouts three OC opening, if you're not planning on doing an all-in, there's a relatively short window of time to make the decision to do it before the econ and infrastructure is in place to fend off attacks.
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On May 19 2012 03:02 GloPikkle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 00:56 Hypemeup wrote:On May 18 2012 04:04 GloPikkle wrote:
I would also add that these days 3 out of every 4 Masters+ Terran is going for fast 3 OC and it's relatively safe. I would argue that this should not be "standard" safe play as it's extremely greedy economically but with good scouting and control of hellions, is still safe. Please dont state incorrect bullshit. 3OC dies to a plethora of Zerg allins, and with the new ovie speed zerg are not nearly as blind as before against 3OC. Dumb patch overall -_- I didn't say it was bulletproof, I said it was safe. Would GSL Terrans play the style if it wasn't? There's no opening build that's immune from every all-in that's strong economically.
Its not safe, thats the point, its a coinflip. Oh and pro players take risks all the time so yes, they do play styles that are not safe all the time.
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On May 19 2012 03:08 Hypemeup wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 03:02 GloPikkle wrote:On May 19 2012 00:56 Hypemeup wrote:On May 18 2012 04:04 GloPikkle wrote:
I would also add that these days 3 out of every 4 Masters+ Terran is going for fast 3 OC and it's relatively safe. I would argue that this should not be "standard" safe play as it's extremely greedy economically but with good scouting and control of hellions, is still safe. Please dont state incorrect bullshit. 3OC dies to a plethora of Zerg allins, and with the new ovie speed zerg are not nearly as blind as before against 3OC. Dumb patch overall -_- I didn't say it was bulletproof, I said it was safe. Would GSL Terrans play the style if it wasn't? There's no opening build that's immune from every all-in that's strong economically. Its not safe, thats the point, its a coinflip. Oh and pro players take risks all the time so yes, they do play styles that are not safe all the time.
Well the safety of the build is dependent on the initialization and follow-up. And 1 Rax into 3 OC is obviously going to be different than CC first into triple OC.
CC first is a coin flip. 1 Rax FE into triple OC can be safe to all but the most determined cheesers. At least at my level (low-mid Masters)
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On May 19 2012 01:12 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 22:26 BeeNu wrote:On May 18 2012 14:12 neoghaleon55 wrote:HOW DARE YOU peons drag DRG's name through the dirt for your triffling quabbles!? Here's the direct quote: Q: Lately, there was a patch that affected Zerg.
It’s definitely become easier since the patch. I’m not too happy with it though. The patch helped all Zergs. I was already good before the patch but now there’s no advantage for high level players like me. ZvT has become easier since the patch. DRG said the patch helped all zergs. The reason he doesn't like it was because it is now harder to show off how much BETTER he is than everyone else. Honestly, as a DRG-fanatic, I still think he's just speaking out of ego. DRG has died to stupid early game attacks before, deep inside he's thankful for the patch, but he's not showing weakness. ^_~ lol, I guess when people don't have a good argument for why they dislike the patches they gotta resort to blatent lying about what pros say.  After a bit of play, Queens in ZvZ are sooo nice now, makes them much more useful for picking off banelings now. You're the one who admitted that people were dealing with Hellions just fine, which completely invalidates any reason for this patch to even exist.
Oh I see, you go from fabricating words in DRG's mouth to making up things that I said now too. Honestly you aren't worth arguing with, relentless crying should be left on the Bnet forums, go back to your people.
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On May 19 2012 08:19 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 01:12 Shiori wrote:On May 18 2012 22:26 BeeNu wrote:On May 18 2012 14:12 neoghaleon55 wrote:HOW DARE YOU peons drag DRG's name through the dirt for your triffling quabbles!? Here's the direct quote: Q: Lately, there was a patch that affected Zerg.
It’s definitely become easier since the patch. I’m not too happy with it though. The patch helped all Zergs. I was already good before the patch but now there’s no advantage for high level players like me. ZvT has become easier since the patch. DRG said the patch helped all zergs. The reason he doesn't like it was because it is now harder to show off how much BETTER he is than everyone else. Honestly, as a DRG-fanatic, I still think he's just speaking out of ego. DRG has died to stupid early game attacks before, deep inside he's thankful for the patch, but he's not showing weakness. ^_~ lol, I guess when people don't have a good argument for why they dislike the patches they gotta resort to blatent lying about what pros say. After a bit of play, Queens in ZvZ are sooo nice now, makes them much more useful for picking off banelings now. You're the one who admitted that people were dealing with Hellions just fine, which completely invalidates any reason for this patch to even exist. Oh I see, you go from fabricating words in DRG's mouth to making up things that I said now too. Honestly you aren't worth arguing with, relentless crying should be left on the Bnet forums, go back to your people.
Bro, calm down. There's no need to flame. I didn't put words in anyone's mouth, let alone DRG's: " I was already good before the patch but now there’s no advantage for high level players like me." It's pretty clear that skill was already sufficient to beat Hellions, ergo there was no reason to buff their counters since players like DRG (i.e. the best players) were already capable of fending them off without breaking a sweat.
I'm not sure why you think I'm "relentless" in my "crying," especially since I don't play Terran and therefore have no personal investment in the well-being of Hellion openings. I do, however, think that the buff to the Queen was 100% unnecessary and creates more problems than it solves.
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On May 19 2012 08:22 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 08:19 BeeNu wrote:On May 19 2012 01:12 Shiori wrote:On May 18 2012 22:26 BeeNu wrote:On May 18 2012 14:12 neoghaleon55 wrote:HOW DARE YOU peons drag DRG's name through the dirt for your triffling quabbles!? Here's the direct quote: Q: Lately, there was a patch that affected Zerg.
It’s definitely become easier since the patch. I’m not too happy with it though. The patch helped all Zergs. I was already good before the patch but now there’s no advantage for high level players like me. ZvT has become easier since the patch. DRG said the patch helped all zergs. The reason he doesn't like it was because it is now harder to show off how much BETTER he is than everyone else. Honestly, as a DRG-fanatic, I still think he's just speaking out of ego. DRG has died to stupid early game attacks before, deep inside he's thankful for the patch, but he's not showing weakness. ^_~ lol, I guess when people don't have a good argument for why they dislike the patches they gotta resort to blatent lying about what pros say. After a bit of play, Queens in ZvZ are sooo nice now, makes them much more useful for picking off banelings now. You're the one who admitted that people were dealing with Hellions just fine, which completely invalidates any reason for this patch to even exist. Oh I see, you go from fabricating words in DRG's mouth to making up things that I said now too. Honestly you aren't worth arguing with, relentless crying should be left on the Bnet forums, go back to your people. Bro, calm down. There's no need to flame. I didn't put words in anyone's mouth, let alone DRG's: " I was already good before the patch but now there’s no advantage for high level players like me." It's pretty clear that skill was already sufficient to beat Hellions, ergo there was no reason to buff their counters since players like DRG (i.e. the best players) were already capable of fending them off without breaking a sweat. I'm not sure why you think I'm "relentless" in my "crying," especially since I don't play Terran and therefore have no personal investment in the well-being of Hellion openings. I do, however, think that the buff to the Queen was 100% unnecessary and creates more problems than it solves.
lol sure thing mr gold league terran.
User was warned for this post
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On May 19 2012 08:25 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 08:22 Shiori wrote:On May 19 2012 08:19 BeeNu wrote:On May 19 2012 01:12 Shiori wrote:On May 18 2012 22:26 BeeNu wrote:On May 18 2012 14:12 neoghaleon55 wrote:HOW DARE YOU peons drag DRG's name through the dirt for your triffling quabbles!? Here's the direct quote: Q: Lately, there was a patch that affected Zerg.
It’s definitely become easier since the patch. I’m not too happy with it though. The patch helped all Zergs. I was already good before the patch but now there’s no advantage for high level players like me. ZvT has become easier since the patch. DRG said the patch helped all zergs. The reason he doesn't like it was because it is now harder to show off how much BETTER he is than everyone else. Honestly, as a DRG-fanatic, I still think he's just speaking out of ego. DRG has died to stupid early game attacks before, deep inside he's thankful for the patch, but he's not showing weakness. ^_~ lol, I guess when people don't have a good argument for why they dislike the patches they gotta resort to blatent lying about what pros say. After a bit of play, Queens in ZvZ are sooo nice now, makes them much more useful for picking off banelings now. You're the one who admitted that people were dealing with Hellions just fine, which completely invalidates any reason for this patch to even exist. Oh I see, you go from fabricating words in DRG's mouth to making up things that I said now too. Honestly you aren't worth arguing with, relentless crying should be left on the Bnet forums, go back to your people. Bro, calm down. There's no need to flame. I didn't put words in anyone's mouth, let alone DRG's: " I was already good before the patch but now there’s no advantage for high level players like me." It's pretty clear that skill was already sufficient to beat Hellions, ergo there was no reason to buff their counters since players like DRG (i.e. the best players) were already capable of fending them off without breaking a sweat. I'm not sure why you think I'm "relentless" in my "crying," especially since I don't play Terran and therefore have no personal investment in the well-being of Hellion openings. I do, however, think that the buff to the Queen was 100% unnecessary and creates more problems than it solves. lol sure thing mr gold league terran.
I'm Masters Toss. I don't play Terran. If you have nothing of substance to say, kindly stop talking.
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On May 19 2012 08:32 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 08:25 BeeNu wrote:On May 19 2012 08:22 Shiori wrote:On May 19 2012 08:19 BeeNu wrote:On May 19 2012 01:12 Shiori wrote:On May 18 2012 22:26 BeeNu wrote:On May 18 2012 14:12 neoghaleon55 wrote:HOW DARE YOU peons drag DRG's name through the dirt for your triffling quabbles!? Here's the direct quote: Q: Lately, there was a patch that affected Zerg.
It’s definitely become easier since the patch. I’m not too happy with it though. The patch helped all Zergs. I was already good before the patch but now there’s no advantage for high level players like me. ZvT has become easier since the patch. DRG said the patch helped all zergs. The reason he doesn't like it was because it is now harder to show off how much BETTER he is than everyone else. Honestly, as a DRG-fanatic, I still think he's just speaking out of ego. DRG has died to stupid early game attacks before, deep inside he's thankful for the patch, but he's not showing weakness. ^_~ lol, I guess when people don't have a good argument for why they dislike the patches they gotta resort to blatent lying about what pros say. After a bit of play, Queens in ZvZ are sooo nice now, makes them much more useful for picking off banelings now. You're the one who admitted that people were dealing with Hellions just fine, which completely invalidates any reason for this patch to even exist. Oh I see, you go from fabricating words in DRG's mouth to making up things that I said now too. Honestly you aren't worth arguing with, relentless crying should be left on the Bnet forums, go back to your people. Bro, calm down. There's no need to flame. I didn't put words in anyone's mouth, let alone DRG's: " I was already good before the patch but now there’s no advantage for high level players like me." It's pretty clear that skill was already sufficient to beat Hellions, ergo there was no reason to buff their counters since players like DRG (i.e. the best players) were already capable of fending them off without breaking a sweat. I'm not sure why you think I'm "relentless" in my "crying," especially since I don't play Terran and therefore have no personal investment in the well-being of Hellion openings. I do, however, think that the buff to the Queen was 100% unnecessary and creates more problems than it solves. lol sure thing mr gold league terran. I'm Masters Toss. I don't play Terran. If you have nothing of substance to say, kindly stop talking.
Hahaha Hallmark needs to make a series of cards for these ROFLstomped moments.
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On topic though, the Queen range buff makes defending Marauder/Hellion pushes WAY easier if you're the type to make like 3-5 extra queens. For a GREAT example of how this Queen buff can be utilized check out:
+ Show Spoiler +
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On May 19 2012 08:32 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 08:25 BeeNu wrote:On May 19 2012 08:22 Shiori wrote:On May 19 2012 08:19 BeeNu wrote:On May 19 2012 01:12 Shiori wrote:On May 18 2012 22:26 BeeNu wrote:On May 18 2012 14:12 neoghaleon55 wrote:HOW DARE YOU peons drag DRG's name through the dirt for your triffling quabbles!? Here's the direct quote: Q: Lately, there was a patch that affected Zerg.
It’s definitely become easier since the patch. I’m not too happy with it though. The patch helped all Zergs. I was already good before the patch but now there’s no advantage for high level players like me. ZvT has become easier since the patch. DRG said the patch helped all zergs. The reason he doesn't like it was because it is now harder to show off how much BETTER he is than everyone else. Honestly, as a DRG-fanatic, I still think he's just speaking out of ego. DRG has died to stupid early game attacks before, deep inside he's thankful for the patch, but he's not showing weakness. ^_~ lol, I guess when people don't have a good argument for why they dislike the patches they gotta resort to blatent lying about what pros say. After a bit of play, Queens in ZvZ are sooo nice now, makes them much more useful for picking off banelings now. You're the one who admitted that people were dealing with Hellions just fine, which completely invalidates any reason for this patch to even exist. Oh I see, you go from fabricating words in DRG's mouth to making up things that I said now too. Honestly you aren't worth arguing with, relentless crying should be left on the Bnet forums, go back to your people. Bro, calm down. There's no need to flame. I didn't put words in anyone's mouth, let alone DRG's: " I was already good before the patch but now there’s no advantage for high level players like me." It's pretty clear that skill was already sufficient to beat Hellions, ergo there was no reason to buff their counters since players like DRG (i.e. the best players) were already capable of fending them off without breaking a sweat. I'm not sure why you think I'm "relentless" in my "crying," especially since I don't play Terran and therefore have no personal investment in the well-being of Hellion openings. I do, however, think that the buff to the Queen was 100% unnecessary and creates more problems than it solves. lol sure thing mr gold league terran. I'm Masters Toss. I don't play Terran. If you have nothing of substance to say, kindly stop talking.
Ok...so you're a protoss player commenting on the ZvT matchup?
That's funny. Ok, here's a suggestion, go play either Terran or Zerg at a masters league level, then you might actually have real experience with what you're talking about and won't have to resort to twisting out interpretations of what you think pros say.
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On May 19 2012 08:51 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 08:32 Shiori wrote:On May 19 2012 08:25 BeeNu wrote:On May 19 2012 08:22 Shiori wrote:On May 19 2012 08:19 BeeNu wrote:On May 19 2012 01:12 Shiori wrote:On May 18 2012 22:26 BeeNu wrote:On May 18 2012 14:12 neoghaleon55 wrote:HOW DARE YOU peons drag DRG's name through the dirt for your triffling quabbles!? Here's the direct quote: Q: Lately, there was a patch that affected Zerg.
It’s definitely become easier since the patch. I’m not too happy with it though. The patch helped all Zergs. I was already good before the patch but now there’s no advantage for high level players like me. ZvT has become easier since the patch. DRG said the patch helped all zergs. The reason he doesn't like it was because it is now harder to show off how much BETTER he is than everyone else. Honestly, as a DRG-fanatic, I still think he's just speaking out of ego. DRG has died to stupid early game attacks before, deep inside he's thankful for the patch, but he's not showing weakness. ^_~ lol, I guess when people don't have a good argument for why they dislike the patches they gotta resort to blatent lying about what pros say. After a bit of play, Queens in ZvZ are sooo nice now, makes them much more useful for picking off banelings now. You're the one who admitted that people were dealing with Hellions just fine, which completely invalidates any reason for this patch to even exist. Oh I see, you go from fabricating words in DRG's mouth to making up things that I said now too. Honestly you aren't worth arguing with, relentless crying should be left on the Bnet forums, go back to your people. Bro, calm down. There's no need to flame. I didn't put words in anyone's mouth, let alone DRG's: " I was already good before the patch but now there’s no advantage for high level players like me." It's pretty clear that skill was already sufficient to beat Hellions, ergo there was no reason to buff their counters since players like DRG (i.e. the best players) were already capable of fending them off without breaking a sweat. I'm not sure why you think I'm "relentless" in my "crying," especially since I don't play Terran and therefore have no personal investment in the well-being of Hellion openings. I do, however, think that the buff to the Queen was 100% unnecessary and creates more problems than it solves. lol sure thing mr gold league terran. I'm Masters Toss. I don't play Terran. If you have nothing of substance to say, kindly stop talking. Ok...so you're a protoss player commenting on the ZvT matchup? That's funny. Ok, here's a suggestion, go play either Terran or Zerg at a masters league level, then you might actually have real experience with what you're talking about and won't have to resort to twisting out interpretations of what you think pros say.
LOL? Singing a different tune, are we?
What, I'm not allowed to comment on a very obvious change in a matchup that I regularly spectate, think about, and discuss with Masters/GM Terrans/Zergs?
And by the way, what I posted previously is a direct quote from DRG, not a twisted interpretation. Clearly DRG had no trouble handling Hellions, and by his words we can reasonably infer that truly high level Zergs didn't have much trouble with them either. Why, then, was there need for a Queen buff? I've noticed that you continue to dodge this question and attack me.
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On May 19 2012 09:12 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 08:51 BeeNu wrote:On May 19 2012 08:32 Shiori wrote:On May 19 2012 08:25 BeeNu wrote:On May 19 2012 08:22 Shiori wrote:On May 19 2012 08:19 BeeNu wrote:On May 19 2012 01:12 Shiori wrote:On May 18 2012 22:26 BeeNu wrote:On May 18 2012 14:12 neoghaleon55 wrote:HOW DARE YOU peons drag DRG's name through the dirt for your triffling quabbles!? Here's the direct quote: Q: Lately, there was a patch that affected Zerg.
It’s definitely become easier since the patch. I’m not too happy with it though. The patch helped all Zergs. I was already good before the patch but now there’s no advantage for high level players like me. ZvT has become easier since the patch. DRG said the patch helped all zergs. The reason he doesn't like it was because it is now harder to show off how much BETTER he is than everyone else. Honestly, as a DRG-fanatic, I still think he's just speaking out of ego. DRG has died to stupid early game attacks before, deep inside he's thankful for the patch, but he's not showing weakness. ^_~ lol, I guess when people don't have a good argument for why they dislike the patches they gotta resort to blatent lying about what pros say. After a bit of play, Queens in ZvZ are sooo nice now, makes them much more useful for picking off banelings now. You're the one who admitted that people were dealing with Hellions just fine, which completely invalidates any reason for this patch to even exist. Oh I see, you go from fabricating words in DRG's mouth to making up things that I said now too. Honestly you aren't worth arguing with, relentless crying should be left on the Bnet forums, go back to your people. Bro, calm down. There's no need to flame. I didn't put words in anyone's mouth, let alone DRG's: " I was already good before the patch but now there’s no advantage for high level players like me." It's pretty clear that skill was already sufficient to beat Hellions, ergo there was no reason to buff their counters since players like DRG (i.e. the best players) were already capable of fending them off without breaking a sweat. I'm not sure why you think I'm "relentless" in my "crying," especially since I don't play Terran and therefore have no personal investment in the well-being of Hellion openings. I do, however, think that the buff to the Queen was 100% unnecessary and creates more problems than it solves. lol sure thing mr gold league terran. I'm Masters Toss. I don't play Terran. If you have nothing of substance to say, kindly stop talking. Ok...so you're a protoss player commenting on the ZvT matchup? That's funny. Ok, here's a suggestion, go play either Terran or Zerg at a masters league level, then you might actually have real experience with what you're talking about and won't have to resort to twisting out interpretations of what you think pros say. LOL? Singing a different tune, are we? What, I'm not allowed to comment on a very obvious change in a matchup that I regularly spectate, think about, and discuss with Masters/GM Terrans/Zergs? And by the way, what I posted previously is a direct quote from DRG, not a twisted interpretation. Clearly DRG had no trouble handling Hellions, and by his words we can reasonably infer that truly high level Zergs didn't have much trouble with them either. Why, then, was there need for a Queen buff? I've noticed that you continue to dodge this question and attack me.
The reason I was avoiding your question is because your question was pretty irrelevant and pointless, but you're nagging so I'll answer anyways. First of all, yes most Zerg can "deal" with hellions, 4 hellions never really outright kills anyone, that's not the issue at all. The reason I suspect blizzard made this change is to make Zerg a little bit less vulnerable in the early game, in relation to ZvT I think this change works since hellions basically only cost minerals and are basically always incredibly cost effective, this change simply makes Terrans have to be a bit wiser with how they use their units in the early game and actually have a bit of risk. Whether or not DRG needs or wants these changes is basically irrelevant, Blizzard doesn't consult these pro players in the first place and the opinion on 1 pro player doesn't really matter to them, they just do what they want anyways. So basically, while Zerg may not have *needed* this change, it's a change Blizzard thought would help to fix some smaller issues in the game that they sought to rectify.
And if you really do spend so much time considering and discussing these changes you really should realize they aren't very huge at all, sure they might take a bit of adjusting to but otherwise I highly doubt there will be any large win/loss changes.
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On May 19 2012 09:24 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 09:12 Shiori wrote:On May 19 2012 08:51 BeeNu wrote:On May 19 2012 08:32 Shiori wrote:On May 19 2012 08:25 BeeNu wrote:On May 19 2012 08:22 Shiori wrote:On May 19 2012 08:19 BeeNu wrote:On May 19 2012 01:12 Shiori wrote:On May 18 2012 22:26 BeeNu wrote:On May 18 2012 14:12 neoghaleon55 wrote:
HOW DARE YOU peons drag DRG's name through the dirt for your triffling quabbles!?
Here's the direct quote:
[quote]
DRG said the patch helped all zergs.
The reason he doesn't like it was because it is now harder to show off how much BETTER he is than everyone else.
Honestly, as a DRG-fanatic, I still think he's just speaking out of ego. DRG has died to stupid early game attacks before, deep inside he's thankful for the patch, but he's not showing weakness. ^_~ lol, I guess when people don't have a good argument for why they dislike the patches they gotta resort to blatent lying about what pros say. After a bit of play, Queens in ZvZ are sooo nice now, makes them much more useful for picking off banelings now. You're the one who admitted that people were dealing with Hellions just fine, which completely invalidates any reason for this patch to even exist. Oh I see, you go from fabricating words in DRG's mouth to making up things that I said now too. Honestly you aren't worth arguing with, relentless crying should be left on the Bnet forums, go back to your people. Bro, calm down. There's no need to flame. I didn't put words in anyone's mouth, let alone DRG's: " I was already good before the patch but now there’s no advantage for high level players like me." It's pretty clear that skill was already sufficient to beat Hellions, ergo there was no reason to buff their counters since players like DRG (i.e. the best players) were already capable of fending them off without breaking a sweat. I'm not sure why you think I'm "relentless" in my "crying," especially since I don't play Terran and therefore have no personal investment in the well-being of Hellion openings. I do, however, think that the buff to the Queen was 100% unnecessary and creates more problems than it solves. lol sure thing mr gold league terran. I'm Masters Toss. I don't play Terran. If you have nothing of substance to say, kindly stop talking. Ok...so you're a protoss player commenting on the ZvT matchup? That's funny. Ok, here's a suggestion, go play either Terran or Zerg at a masters league level, then you might actually have real experience with what you're talking about and won't have to resort to twisting out interpretations of what you think pros say. LOL? Singing a different tune, are we? What, I'm not allowed to comment on a very obvious change in a matchup that I regularly spectate, think about, and discuss with Masters/GM Terrans/Zergs? And by the way, what I posted previously is a direct quote from DRG, not a twisted interpretation. Clearly DRG had no trouble handling Hellions, and by his words we can reasonably infer that truly high level Zergs didn't have much trouble with them either. Why, then, was there need for a Queen buff? I've noticed that you continue to dodge this question and attack me. The reason I was avoiding your question is because your question was pretty irrelevant and pointless, but you're nagging so I'll answer anyways. First of all, yes most Zerg can "deal" with hellions, 4 hellions never really outright kills anyone, that's not the issue at all. The reason I suspect blizzard made this change is to make Zerg a little bit less vulnerable in the early game, in relation to ZvT I think this change works since hellions basically only cost minerals and are basically always incredibly cost effective, this change simply makes Terrans have to be a bit wiser with how they use their units in the early game and actually have a bit of risk. Whether or not DRG needs or wants these changes is basically irrelevant, Blizzard doesn't consult these pro players in the first place and the opinion on 1 pro player doesn't really matter to them, they just do what they want anyways. So basically, while Zerg may not have *needed* this change, it's a change Blizzard thought would help to fix some smaller issues in the game that they sought to rectify. And if you really do spend so much time considering and discussing these changes you really should realize they aren't very huge at all, sure they might take a bit of adjusting to but otherwise I highly doubt there will be any large win/loss changes.
I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't fix what isn't broken to avoid needlessly endangering the stability of a matchup. Apparently, you and Blizzard disagree.
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On May 19 2012 09:48 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 09:24 BeeNu wrote:On May 19 2012 09:12 Shiori wrote:On May 19 2012 08:51 BeeNu wrote:On May 19 2012 08:32 Shiori wrote:On May 19 2012 08:25 BeeNu wrote:On May 19 2012 08:22 Shiori wrote:On May 19 2012 08:19 BeeNu wrote:On May 19 2012 01:12 Shiori wrote:On May 18 2012 22:26 BeeNu wrote:[quote] lol, I guess when people don't have a good argument for why they dislike the patches they gotta resort to blatent lying about what pros say. After a bit of play, Queens in ZvZ are sooo nice now, makes them much more useful for picking off banelings now. You're the one who admitted that people were dealing with Hellions just fine, which completely invalidates any reason for this patch to even exist. Oh I see, you go from fabricating words in DRG's mouth to making up things that I said now too. Honestly you aren't worth arguing with, relentless crying should be left on the Bnet forums, go back to your people. Bro, calm down. There's no need to flame. I didn't put words in anyone's mouth, let alone DRG's: " I was already good before the patch but now there’s no advantage for high level players like me." It's pretty clear that skill was already sufficient to beat Hellions, ergo there was no reason to buff their counters since players like DRG (i.e. the best players) were already capable of fending them off without breaking a sweat. I'm not sure why you think I'm "relentless" in my "crying," especially since I don't play Terran and therefore have no personal investment in the well-being of Hellion openings. I do, however, think that the buff to the Queen was 100% unnecessary and creates more problems than it solves. lol sure thing mr gold league terran. I'm Masters Toss. I don't play Terran. If you have nothing of substance to say, kindly stop talking. Ok...so you're a protoss player commenting on the ZvT matchup? That's funny. Ok, here's a suggestion, go play either Terran or Zerg at a masters league level, then you might actually have real experience with what you're talking about and won't have to resort to twisting out interpretations of what you think pros say. LOL? Singing a different tune, are we? What, I'm not allowed to comment on a very obvious change in a matchup that I regularly spectate, think about, and discuss with Masters/GM Terrans/Zergs? And by the way, what I posted previously is a direct quote from DRG, not a twisted interpretation. Clearly DRG had no trouble handling Hellions, and by his words we can reasonably infer that truly high level Zergs didn't have much trouble with them either. Why, then, was there need for a Queen buff? I've noticed that you continue to dodge this question and attack me. The reason I was avoiding your question is because your question was pretty irrelevant and pointless, but you're nagging so I'll answer anyways. First of all, yes most Zerg can "deal" with hellions, 4 hellions never really outright kills anyone, that's not the issue at all. The reason I suspect blizzard made this change is to make Zerg a little bit less vulnerable in the early game, in relation to ZvT I think this change works since hellions basically only cost minerals and are basically always incredibly cost effective, this change simply makes Terrans have to be a bit wiser with how they use their units in the early game and actually have a bit of risk. Whether or not DRG needs or wants these changes is basically irrelevant, Blizzard doesn't consult these pro players in the first place and the opinion on 1 pro player doesn't really matter to them, they just do what they want anyways. So basically, while Zerg may not have *needed* this change, it's a change Blizzard thought would help to fix some smaller issues in the game that they sought to rectify. And if you really do spend so much time considering and discussing these changes you really should realize they aren't very huge at all, sure they might take a bit of adjusting to but otherwise I highly doubt there will be any large win/loss changes. I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't fix what isn't broken to avoid needlessly endangering the stability of a matchup. Apparently, you and Blizzard disagree.
Well I think the way Hellions acted in TvZ was pretty close to broken just in terms of how utterly over-the-top cost effective they were with bascially 0 risk to Terrans. Aside from that, Blizzard makes tons of changes without anything being outright broken, very very rarely have they made any changes because of something being "broken". If you have a problem every time Blizzard makes a change for something not deemed completely "broken" then I'm afraid you've got an endless job of crying ahead of you.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On May 19 2012 03:02 GloPikkle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 00:56 Hypemeup wrote:On May 18 2012 04:04 GloPikkle wrote:
I would also add that these days 3 out of every 4 Masters+ Terran is going for fast 3 OC and it's relatively safe. I would argue that this should not be "standard" safe play as it's extremely greedy economically but with good scouting and control of hellions, is still safe. Please dont state incorrect bullshit. 3OC dies to a plethora of Zerg allins, and with the new ovie speed zerg are not nearly as blind as before against 3OC. Dumb patch overall -_- I didn't say it was bulletproof, I said it was safe. Would GSL Terrans play the style if it wasn't? There's no opening build that's immune from every all-in that's strong economically. And even if someone scouts three OC opening, if you're not planning on doing an all-in, there's a relatively short window of time to make the decision to do it before the econ and infrastructure is in place to fend off attacks.
Triple CC is safe as long as you get hellions. Hellions prevent the mass ling type of all in. So only Roach based all ins work. Hellions also give you a advance warning of a roach based all in so you can mass bunkers in time. Let's say zerg all ins you. Terran is still ahead if he loses 25 scvs or less. Because triple CC is that strong.
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All I see here from Blizzard is "conflicted" ideas on balance, they nerf the ghost into a specialist anti-spell caster unit but yet buff the queen so that it makes even more sense to add them into your army. A 150 mineral unit that can potential make you army invincible? C'mon, maybe they're doing the beta style patching again by making units super good and then nerfing them when they're used.
tl;dr As it stands mass queen strategies become nigh invincible, need you to make more expensive (gas) units/spell-casters to neutralise the queens.ie templar/ ghost
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On May 20 2012 18:47 OdiousTea wrote:
All I see here from Blizzard is "conflicted" ideas on balance, they nerf the ghost into a specialist anti-spell caster unit but yet buff the queen so that it makes even more sense to add them into your army. A 150 mineral unit that can potential make you army invincible? C'mon, maybe they're doing the beta style patching again by making units super good and then nerfing them when they're used.
tl;dr As it stands mass queen strategies become nigh invincible, need you to make more expensive (gas) units/spell-casters to neutralise the queens.ie templar/ ghost
Please provide a replay demonstrating how queens make zerg army "invincible".
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On May 19 2012 11:32 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 09:48 Shiori wrote:On May 19 2012 09:24 BeeNu wrote:On May 19 2012 09:12 Shiori wrote:On May 19 2012 08:51 BeeNu wrote:On May 19 2012 08:32 Shiori wrote:On May 19 2012 08:25 BeeNu wrote:On May 19 2012 08:22 Shiori wrote:On May 19 2012 08:19 BeeNu wrote:On May 19 2012 01:12 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
You're the one who admitted that people were dealing with Hellions just fine, which completely invalidates any reason for this patch to even exist. Oh I see, you go from fabricating words in DRG's mouth to making up things that I said now too. Honestly you aren't worth arguing with, relentless crying should be left on the Bnet forums, go back to your people. Bro, calm down. There's no need to flame. I didn't put words in anyone's mouth, let alone DRG's: " I was already good before the patch but now there’s no advantage for high level players like me." It's pretty clear that skill was already sufficient to beat Hellions, ergo there was no reason to buff their counters since players like DRG (i.e. the best players) were already capable of fending them off without breaking a sweat. I'm not sure why you think I'm "relentless" in my "crying," especially since I don't play Terran and therefore have no personal investment in the well-being of Hellion openings. I do, however, think that the buff to the Queen was 100% unnecessary and creates more problems than it solves. lol sure thing mr gold league terran. I'm Masters Toss. I don't play Terran. If you have nothing of substance to say, kindly stop talking. Ok...so you're a protoss player commenting on the ZvT matchup? That's funny. Ok, here's a suggestion, go play either Terran or Zerg at a masters league level, then you might actually have real experience with what you're talking about and won't have to resort to twisting out interpretations of what you think pros say. LOL? Singing a different tune, are we? What, I'm not allowed to comment on a very obvious change in a matchup that I regularly spectate, think about, and discuss with Masters/GM Terrans/Zergs? And by the way, what I posted previously is a direct quote from DRG, not a twisted interpretation. Clearly DRG had no trouble handling Hellions, and by his words we can reasonably infer that truly high level Zergs didn't have much trouble with them either. Why, then, was there need for a Queen buff? I've noticed that you continue to dodge this question and attack me. The reason I was avoiding your question is because your question was pretty irrelevant and pointless, but you're nagging so I'll answer anyways. First of all, yes most Zerg can "deal" with hellions, 4 hellions never really outright kills anyone, that's not the issue at all. The reason I suspect blizzard made this change is to make Zerg a little bit less vulnerable in the early game, in relation to ZvT I think this change works since hellions basically only cost minerals and are basically always incredibly cost effective, this change simply makes Terrans have to be a bit wiser with how they use their units in the early game and actually have a bit of risk. Whether or not DRG needs or wants these changes is basically irrelevant, Blizzard doesn't consult these pro players in the first place and the opinion on 1 pro player doesn't really matter to them, they just do what they want anyways. So basically, while Zerg may not have *needed* this change, it's a change Blizzard thought would help to fix some smaller issues in the game that they sought to rectify. And if you really do spend so much time considering and discussing these changes you really should realize they aren't very huge at all, sure they might take a bit of adjusting to but otherwise I highly doubt there will be any large win/loss changes. I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't fix what isn't broken to avoid needlessly endangering the stability of a matchup. Apparently, you and Blizzard disagree. Well I think the way Hellions acted in TvZ was pretty close to broken just in terms of how utterly over-the-top cost effective they were with bascially 0 risk to Terrans. Aside from that, Blizzard makes tons of changes without anything being outright broken, very very rarely have they made any changes because of something being "broken". If you have a problem every time Blizzard makes a change for something not deemed completely "broken" then I'm afraid you've got an endless job of crying ahead of you.
Queens are over-the-top cost effective and there's 0 risk to spamming them for zerg. Before, and even more so now. There's two sides to the coin.
Edit: And they transition to the endgame way better than hellions ever will.
I keep hoping that Blizzard will make SC2 harder to play, yet they continue making it easier to play at lower levels while limiting options at the top level. Why do they have to ruin everything they touch?
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On May 20 2012 19:37 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 11:32 BeeNu wrote:On May 19 2012 09:48 Shiori wrote:On May 19 2012 09:24 BeeNu wrote:On May 19 2012 09:12 Shiori wrote:On May 19 2012 08:51 BeeNu wrote:On May 19 2012 08:32 Shiori wrote:On May 19 2012 08:25 BeeNu wrote:On May 19 2012 08:22 Shiori wrote:On May 19 2012 08:19 BeeNu wrote:
[quote]
Oh I see, you go from fabricating words in DRG's mouth to making up things that I said now too. Honestly you aren't worth arguing with, relentless crying should be left on the Bnet forums, go back to your people. Bro, calm down. There's no need to flame. I didn't put words in anyone's mouth, let alone DRG's: " I was already good before the patch but now there’s no advantage for high level players like me." It's pretty clear that skill was already sufficient to beat Hellions, ergo there was no reason to buff their counters since players like DRG (i.e. the best players) were already capable of fending them off without breaking a sweat. I'm not sure why you think I'm "relentless" in my "crying," especially since I don't play Terran and therefore have no personal investment in the well-being of Hellion openings. I do, however, think that the buff to the Queen was 100% unnecessary and creates more problems than it solves. lol sure thing mr gold league terran. I'm Masters Toss. I don't play Terran. If you have nothing of substance to say, kindly stop talking. Ok...so you're a protoss player commenting on the ZvT matchup? That's funny. Ok, here's a suggestion, go play either Terran or Zerg at a masters league level, then you might actually have real experience with what you're talking about and won't have to resort to twisting out interpretations of what you think pros say. LOL? Singing a different tune, are we? What, I'm not allowed to comment on a very obvious change in a matchup that I regularly spectate, think about, and discuss with Masters/GM Terrans/Zergs? And by the way, what I posted previously is a direct quote from DRG, not a twisted interpretation. Clearly DRG had no trouble handling Hellions, and by his words we can reasonably infer that truly high level Zergs didn't have much trouble with them either. Why, then, was there need for a Queen buff? I've noticed that you continue to dodge this question and attack me. The reason I was avoiding your question is because your question was pretty irrelevant and pointless, but you're nagging so I'll answer anyways. First of all, yes most Zerg can "deal" with hellions, 4 hellions never really outright kills anyone, that's not the issue at all. The reason I suspect blizzard made this change is to make Zerg a little bit less vulnerable in the early game, in relation to ZvT I think this change works since hellions basically only cost minerals and are basically always incredibly cost effective, this change simply makes Terrans have to be a bit wiser with how they use their units in the early game and actually have a bit of risk. Whether or not DRG needs or wants these changes is basically irrelevant, Blizzard doesn't consult these pro players in the first place and the opinion on 1 pro player doesn't really matter to them, they just do what they want anyways. So basically, while Zerg may not have *needed* this change, it's a change Blizzard thought would help to fix some smaller issues in the game that they sought to rectify. And if you really do spend so much time considering and discussing these changes you really should realize they aren't very huge at all, sure they might take a bit of adjusting to but otherwise I highly doubt there will be any large win/loss changes. I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't fix what isn't broken to avoid needlessly endangering the stability of a matchup. Apparently, you and Blizzard disagree. Well I think the way Hellions acted in TvZ was pretty close to broken just in terms of how utterly over-the-top cost effective they were with bascially 0 risk to Terrans. Aside from that, Blizzard makes tons of changes without anything being outright broken, very very rarely have they made any changes because of something being "broken". If you have a problem every time Blizzard makes a change for something not deemed completely "broken" then I'm afraid you've got an endless job of crying ahead of you. Queens are over-the-top cost effective and there's 0 risk to spamming them for zerg. Before, and even more so now. There's two sides to the coin. Edit: And they transition to the endgame way better than hellions ever will. I keep hoping that Blizzard will make SC2 harder to play, yet they continue making it easier to play at lower levels while limiting options at the top level. Why do they have to ruin everything they touch?
Yeah but the big difference is you don't just blindly run your Queens into your opponents base and kill 20 workers if one of their units wasn't in a 100% correct position to block em, Queens take a long time to build up in numbers, only really work defensively and as a late-game support unit, I think their current role is fantastic. Also if I can use MLG as a nice example, both DRG and IdrA used a bunch of early game Queens to spread creep and defend, it worked out really nicely for them but in no way did it win them the game, they still lost vs Terrans. I don't see Queens as being that big of a game changer, just makes creep spread more viable and lets Zerg push for early game map control vs Hellions and makes Ultras actually a bit more viable late game too if you can keep your creep spread up and have Queen support. I really don't see this as being an "op" problem at all, just something Terrans will need to adapt to a little bit and they will be just fine.
And yes, Hellions aren't all that useful late-game unless you're going pure Mech but whatever, you'll most likely have Battle Hellions with HOTS to alleviate this problem so just chill out.
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EPT
