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On May 18 2012 03:23 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 03:18 GloPikkle wrote:On May 18 2012 03:16 Shiori wrote:On May 18 2012 02:56 SmileZerg wrote:On May 18 2012 02:48 Shiori wrote:On May 18 2012 02:45 SmileZerg wrote:
Let me put something in perspective for you guys. Queens only have 8 DPS vs ground targets, compared to the 7 DPS of an unstimmed marine, which costs half the supply and a third of the minerals. Queens also suffer double reduction from armored targets.
You're basically complaining that all early pressure vs Zerg is dead forever because they have what amounts to 2-3 marines in bunkers with 40% HP. Sure there's also transfuse, but it's not as effective as repair, and is extremely unlikely to be available early game if the Z player is keeping up on injects/creep spread.
This buff was nothing more than a small boost to Zerg's defensive capabilities vs extremely early 2rax cheeses or SCV all-ins. It has almost no effect on any other part of the matchup. Learn to play and stop blaming your losses on insignificant stat tweaks, it's embarrassing. If you got 3 Marines with the durability of Bunkers that just sat around your mineral line, nobody would ever open Hellions against you. It's less than half the durability of a bunker, not even counting the marine, and the point of a Hellion opener is not to just run-by into the mineral line unless you're going all-in with double reactored factories, or you see some kind of opening. The point is that Hellions don't actually do damage to anything that isn't low-health and light. They're also quite fragile on their own and exist primarily for the purpose of safely denying Creep. With the new Queen range, the Queens can literally just walk up and start attacking the Hellions without fear of being kited. I will never understand why people in this game think they're entitled to be immune to cheese just by playing standard and not reacting at all. They'll still cancel your tumors though if they're determined. At the very least they'll delay you dropping anything outside of the range of your spines for quite a bit. A few pot shots from a Queen aren't going to dissuade most Terrans nor negate the viability of early game hellions for map control. I still can't take an early 3rd without roaches and they still shut down lings at any ration lower than 5:1 unless your control is terribad. Um... Queens are basically just early game Roaches right now. They have bigger range, similar durability vs Hellions, and do a little less damage. That's all you need to push the Hellions back. You could barely deny Creep tumors against a crafty Zerg to begin with; now, you can barely deny direct Creep spread, and you definitely can't delay an early third nearly as long as you could before. Again, it all comes down to the fact that this was utterly unnecessary because Zerg isn't entitled to Creep spread nor a fast third, not should they be able to fend off Hellions with just their macro mechanic.
Maybe it's the level that you're playing at vs where I'm playing at (mid-Masters). I've mostly seen Terrans adding an extra pair to make up the difference and they deny my tumors just fine. It still takes a scan but it's not like my creep can get out of control and be at their doorstep by 11:00. I suppose if I went 4-5 queens instead of just 3 that it could be more obnoxious with my creep but my current fast Lair with macro hatch build does not allow for the minerals required to get additional queens but I'm not very good so I'm probably just playing sub-optimally.
I suppose you could also argue that 200 minerals worth of units are not entitled to ground map control for 2-3 minutes plus the risk of a runby that costs 5-10 drones minimum.
I think the ultimately it'll take more data/time to truly see if this changes racial balances. ZvT I thought was pretty balanced as it was although I think the OL was sorely needed. It may be frustrating for T players to seemingly get passed over all the time for buffs but at the highest level (GSL) they're still doing well so unfortunately the noobies have to adapt more so.
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Better durability vs. Hellions actually. 175HP 1 armour vs. 145HP 1 armour. DPS is exactly the same (though Roaches in practice more I guess). But yeah, stupid patch is stupid. And most definitely unnecessary. Dunno what was wrong with investing resources (mass sling or roaches) or time (spine) to drive the Hellions away. Kept the us playing fair with minimal risk to either side. Definite overkill as far as I'm concerned. Though early game ZvZ defense buff is nice.
EDIT: Also, Hellions are 100 a pop, standard 4 is 400, plus the investment in early gas and tech to get them out in the first place. But it's not just a bunch of minerals that gets invested in the build, the most important things are time and the lack of a standing army.
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I would also add that these days 3 out of every 4 Masters+ Terran is going for fast 3 OC and it's relatively safe. I would argue that this should not be "standard" safe play as it's extremely greedy economically but with good scouting and control of hellions, is still safe.
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On May 18 2012 02:51 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 11:20 BeeNu wrote:On May 17 2012 10:27 Shiori wrote:On May 17 2012 10:18 BandonBanshee wrote:
The amount of entitlement in this thread is disgusting. This change is supposed to lead to more macro oriented play ( seems to be why terrans hate it ). Does the queens extra range stop you from taking an early third? All it does is help defend against a couple retarded 1 base all in's and help deflect hellions ( which pre patch 4 of them could deny creep, scouting and your third ) You just have to control your hellions a bit better...Zerg has its issues but this isn't one of them, and it hasn't proven to be over powered at all. Just makes the early game less terran favored. This idea that "macro play" should somehow be guaranteed is the true entitlement in this thread, and it's coming squarely from Zerg players. You want to play a drawn out macro game? Learn to hold the all-ins like DRG does. If there weren't any "retarded" 1 base and 2base all-ins, people who just take 5 bases and tech straight to T3 without fear of recourse; that's not an RTS, that's Risk. 4 Hellions denying creep and delaying the Zerg's third at the cost of later Siege Tech, a later Natural (as opposed to 1rax FE) and a lower Marine count is hardly overpowered. You say that but lets look at the TvZ matchup for a second as just one example. Terrans basically have a macro game guarenteed to them if they want it, just do something simple like a 1rax or hellion reactor expand, get quick siege tech if you want to be really safe, and viola! You have a macro game on your hands and there is basically nothing Zerg can do about that except match you in a macro game. Now lets say a Zerg wants to go for a macro game, ok fine you have to be able to hold off whatever all-in the Terran is throwing at you...but first you have to actually figure out if the Terran is all-inning and what type of all-in...welp, turns out slow overlords will never scout anything if a good Terran wants to deny scouting...ok so now you have to flip a coin and try to guess how to hold an all-in that may or may not be coming. Do you see the problem here? If not you probably shouldn't be talking about balance. Frankly, I think ovie speed boost is fantastic and long overdue. I also really like the Queen buff but it's too early to tell if it's too strong or not, all I do know is that the sheer amount of brainless Terran crying makes me really love it especially since I remember back in the day any time Zerg had balance complaints basically every Terran in sight would tell them to shut up and stop QQ'ing. Oh how times have changed. You really think a 1 rax FE is going to easily hold a Baneling or Roach bust? Hellion openings are blind countered by Roach busts. Stop being so biased. Again, I'm just going to point out that DRG publicly stated that this buff does absolutely nothing for him, because he already knows how to scout Terrans and react accordingly. This is just helping lazy players who don't know how to hold all-ins.
You can hold a bane bust with 1rax fe. Are you talking about like a really super fast bane bust? Because if so you should be able to scout with your scv and be tipped off, in which case you just reinforce your ramp and lift off your natural if needed and carry on like nothing happened. If you're talking about a later type of bane bust you can still have enough defense up in time so long as you are scouting. Same thing applies to fast roach rushes, just do a bit of scouting and throw up a bunker and you'll be fine.
Also if you want to use DRG as an example that's fine, but by those same standards you lose the right to complain about Queens so long as any Terran pro doesn't think they are OP.
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It's not just DRG, you can see the perfectly doable low-risk defense again and again in pro games. It just requires you to play fair instead of all-out greedy.
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On May 18 2012 04:14 Coffee Zombie wrote:
It's not just DRG, you can see the perfectly doable low-risk defense again and again in pro games. It just requires you to play fair instead of all-out greedy.
Oh, the low risk defense that forces Zerg to make roaches to take a third, thus delaying tech and a third against Terrans that can pretty much safely go 3CC, unless the Zerg wants to blindly all in?
Or the low risk defense that involves static defense and walling off, thus letting Terran get 3CC and not being able to take a third?
Funny.
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On May 18 2012 04:06 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 02:51 Shiori wrote:On May 17 2012 11:20 BeeNu wrote:On May 17 2012 10:27 Shiori wrote:On May 17 2012 10:18 BandonBanshee wrote:
The amount of entitlement in this thread is disgusting. This change is supposed to lead to more macro oriented play ( seems to be why terrans hate it ). Does the queens extra range stop you from taking an early third? All it does is help defend against a couple retarded 1 base all in's and help deflect hellions ( which pre patch 4 of them could deny creep, scouting and your third ) You just have to control your hellions a bit better...Zerg has its issues but this isn't one of them, and it hasn't proven to be over powered at all. Just makes the early game less terran favored. This idea that "macro play" should somehow be guaranteed is the true entitlement in this thread, and it's coming squarely from Zerg players. You want to play a drawn out macro game? Learn to hold the all-ins like DRG does. If there weren't any "retarded" 1 base and 2base all-ins, people who just take 5 bases and tech straight to T3 without fear of recourse; that's not an RTS, that's Risk. 4 Hellions denying creep and delaying the Zerg's third at the cost of later Siege Tech, a later Natural (as opposed to 1rax FE) and a lower Marine count is hardly overpowered. You say that but lets look at the TvZ matchup for a second as just one example. Terrans basically have a macro game guarenteed to them if they want it, just do something simple like a 1rax or hellion reactor expand, get quick siege tech if you want to be really safe, and viola! You have a macro game on your hands and there is basically nothing Zerg can do about that except match you in a macro game. Now lets say a Zerg wants to go for a macro game, ok fine you have to be able to hold off whatever all-in the Terran is throwing at you...but first you have to actually figure out if the Terran is all-inning and what type of all-in...welp, turns out slow overlords will never scout anything if a good Terran wants to deny scouting...ok so now you have to flip a coin and try to guess how to hold an all-in that may or may not be coming. Do you see the problem here? If not you probably shouldn't be talking about balance. Frankly, I think ovie speed boost is fantastic and long overdue. I also really like the Queen buff but it's too early to tell if it's too strong or not, all I do know is that the sheer amount of brainless Terran crying makes me really love it especially since I remember back in the day any time Zerg had balance complaints basically every Terran in sight would tell them to shut up and stop QQ'ing. Oh how times have changed. You really think a 1 rax FE is going to easily hold a Baneling or Roach bust? Hellion openings are blind countered by Roach busts. Stop being so biased. Again, I'm just going to point out that DRG publicly stated that this buff does absolutely nothing for him, because he already knows how to scout Terrans and react accordingly. This is just helping lazy players who don't know how to hold all-ins. You can hold a bane bust with 1rax fe. Are you talking about like a really super fast bane bust? Because if so you should be able to scout with your scv and be tipped off, in which case you just reinforce your ramp and lift off your natural if needed and carry on like nothing happened. If you're talking about a later type of bane bust you can still have enough defense up in time so long as you are scouting. Same thing applies to fast roach rushes, just do a bit of scouting and throw up a bunker and you'll be fine. Also if you want to use DRG as an example that's fine, but by those same standards you lose the right to complain about Queens so long as any Terran pro doesn't think they are OP.
...?
You're missing the point. DRG doesn't just say he doesn't need the upgrades; he's saying that they don't DO anything for high level play, because high level players are already more than capable of handling Hellions. This just makes it impossible for high level Terran cheese to work, which isn't necessary. It also drastically reduces the effectiveness of harassment in PvZ, which is something that many Protoss players have come out lamenting.
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On May 18 2012 04:23 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 04:06 BeeNu wrote:On May 18 2012 02:51 Shiori wrote:On May 17 2012 11:20 BeeNu wrote:On May 17 2012 10:27 Shiori wrote:On May 17 2012 10:18 BandonBanshee wrote:
The amount of entitlement in this thread is disgusting. This change is supposed to lead to more macro oriented play ( seems to be why terrans hate it ). Does the queens extra range stop you from taking an early third? All it does is help defend against a couple retarded 1 base all in's and help deflect hellions ( which pre patch 4 of them could deny creep, scouting and your third ) You just have to control your hellions a bit better...Zerg has its issues but this isn't one of them, and it hasn't proven to be over powered at all. Just makes the early game less terran favored. This idea that "macro play" should somehow be guaranteed is the true entitlement in this thread, and it's coming squarely from Zerg players. You want to play a drawn out macro game? Learn to hold the all-ins like DRG does. If there weren't any "retarded" 1 base and 2base all-ins, people who just take 5 bases and tech straight to T3 without fear of recourse; that's not an RTS, that's Risk. 4 Hellions denying creep and delaying the Zerg's third at the cost of later Siege Tech, a later Natural (as opposed to 1rax FE) and a lower Marine count is hardly overpowered. You say that but lets look at the TvZ matchup for a second as just one example. Terrans basically have a macro game guarenteed to them if they want it, just do something simple like a 1rax or hellion reactor expand, get quick siege tech if you want to be really safe, and viola! You have a macro game on your hands and there is basically nothing Zerg can do about that except match you in a macro game. Now lets say a Zerg wants to go for a macro game, ok fine you have to be able to hold off whatever all-in the Terran is throwing at you...but first you have to actually figure out if the Terran is all-inning and what type of all-in...welp, turns out slow overlords will never scout anything if a good Terran wants to deny scouting...ok so now you have to flip a coin and try to guess how to hold an all-in that may or may not be coming. Do you see the problem here? If not you probably shouldn't be talking about balance. Frankly, I think ovie speed boost is fantastic and long overdue. I also really like the Queen buff but it's too early to tell if it's too strong or not, all I do know is that the sheer amount of brainless Terran crying makes me really love it especially since I remember back in the day any time Zerg had balance complaints basically every Terran in sight would tell them to shut up and stop QQ'ing. Oh how times have changed. You really think a 1 rax FE is going to easily hold a Baneling or Roach bust? Hellion openings are blind countered by Roach busts. Stop being so biased. Again, I'm just going to point out that DRG publicly stated that this buff does absolutely nothing for him, because he already knows how to scout Terrans and react accordingly. This is just helping lazy players who don't know how to hold all-ins. You can hold a bane bust with 1rax fe. Are you talking about like a really super fast bane bust? Because if so you should be able to scout with your scv and be tipped off, in which case you just reinforce your ramp and lift off your natural if needed and carry on like nothing happened. If you're talking about a later type of bane bust you can still have enough defense up in time so long as you are scouting. Same thing applies to fast roach rushes, just do a bit of scouting and throw up a bunker and you'll be fine. Also if you want to use DRG as an example that's fine, but by those same standards you lose the right to complain about Queens so long as any Terran pro doesn't think they are OP. ...? You're missing the point. DRG doesn't just say he doesn't need the upgrades; he's saying that they don't DO anything for high level play, because high level players are already more than capable of handling Hellions. This just makes it impossible for high level Terran cheese to work, which isn't necessary. It also drastically reduces the effectiveness of harassment in PvZ, which is something that many Protoss players have come out lamenting.
I think you are assuming too much and most likely putting words in DRG's mouth by this point. I mean, players are capable of "dealing" with hellions, whatever that's supposed to mean, few people outright die to 4 hellions but now you, me and DRG are more able to shoo them away and dispose of them more quickly when they run into your base, whether or not you admit it or want it to queens still "do something" for you more effectively now, same with Overlord speed. Sure you may have gotten along just fine with slower overlords but now you have slightly more effective overlords in whatever you choose to use your overlords for...so simply put, saying these buffs don't do anything for DRG is flat out wrong. Also, I really haven't seen any Protoss players complaining so far but idk, maybe you know of a secret sect of QQToss I haven't heard from yet.
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HOW DARE YOU peons drag DRG's name through the dirt for your triffling quabbles!?
Here's the direct quote:
Q: Lately, there was a patch that affected Zerg.
It’s definitely become easier since the patch. I’m not too happy with it though. The patch helped all Zergs. I was already good before the patch but now there’s no advantage for high level players like me. ZvT has become easier since the patch.
DRG said the patch helped all zergs.
The reason he doesn't like it was because it is now harder to show off how much BETTER he is than everyone else.
Honestly, as a DRG-fanatic, I still think he's just speaking out of ego. DRG has died to stupid early game attacks before, deep inside he's thankful for the patch, but he's not showing weakness. ^_~
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If we're on this track, we might as well be able to throw down mules to help us fight all-ins. It'll be more expensive in the long run than spamming out queens to defend with while you tech.
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It seems to me that a lot of people aren't noticing how the queen buff has allowed for safer queens in the endgame broodlord composition. The usefulness of getting early queens have also started to show strong transfuse play from middle to endgame as well.
This is a nice dynamic that's come about because of this change and I personally like how queens are being used more often. Unfortunately, the creep spread looks ridiculous now. Hopefully Terrans can find a way to counter it.
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Maybe Blizzard wanted zergs to use mass queens mode in the mid/endgame so they made them more viable to make people use them more often, so they could later revert this change, because that's the only logic I can find for it. It's an atrocious change really.
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On May 18 2012 14:12 neoghaleon55 wrote:HOW DARE YOU peons drag DRG's name through the dirt for your triffling quabbles!? Here's the direct quote: Show nested quote +Q: Lately, there was a patch that affected Zerg.
It’s definitely become easier since the patch. I’m not too happy with it though. The patch helped all Zergs. I was already good before the patch but now there’s no advantage for high level players like me. ZvT has become easier since the patch. DRG said the patch helped all zergs. The reason he doesn't like it was because it is now harder to show off how much BETTER he is than everyone else. Honestly, as a DRG-fanatic, I still think he's just speaking out of ego. DRG has died to stupid early game attacks before, deep inside he's thankful for the patch, but he's not showing weakness. ^_~
lol, I guess when people don't have a good argument for why they dislike the patches they gotta resort to blatent lying about what pros say. 
After a bit of play, Queens in ZvZ are sooo nice now, makes them much more useful for picking off banelings now.
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One thing I will say is that, whereas most patches start with commentators raging followed quickly by an acceptance that it was probably a good idea, this patch seems to have gone the opposite way. Commentators started pretty excited about it but have been turning progressively more sour about what it's done to the game.
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On May 18 2012 04:04 GloPikkle wrote:
I would also add that these days 3 out of every 4 Masters+ Terran is going for fast 3 OC and it's relatively safe. I would argue that this should not be "standard" safe play as it's extremely greedy economically but with good scouting and control of hellions, is still safe.
Please dont state incorrect bullshit. 3OC dies to a plethora of Zerg allins, and with the new ovie speed zerg are not nearly as blind as before against 3OC.
Dumb patch overall -_-
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On May 18 2012 22:26 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 14:12 neoghaleon55 wrote:HOW DARE YOU peons drag DRG's name through the dirt for your triffling quabbles!? Here's the direct quote: Q: Lately, there was a patch that affected Zerg.
It’s definitely become easier since the patch. I’m not too happy with it though. The patch helped all Zergs. I was already good before the patch but now there’s no advantage for high level players like me. ZvT has become easier since the patch. DRG said the patch helped all zergs. The reason he doesn't like it was because it is now harder to show off how much BETTER he is than everyone else. Honestly, as a DRG-fanatic, I still think he's just speaking out of ego. DRG has died to stupid early game attacks before, deep inside he's thankful for the patch, but he's not showing weakness. ^_~ lol, I guess when people don't have a good argument for why they dislike the patches they gotta resort to blatent lying about what pros say. After a bit of play, Queens in ZvZ are sooo nice now, makes them much more useful for picking off banelings now.
Please fact check before calling others out to avoid looking like a retard:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=337810
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i think almost everybody knows that this patch made zerg stronger than it should be. all terran players have to wait until blizzard analyzes the statistics in gsl, mlg etc and they will (hopefully) notice there aren't many terrans left when it goes to the last rounds of a torunament since they released the patch. lets just hope all terrans will lose their games and blizzard understand their mistakes. whining in threads won't help anything...
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On May 18 2012 22:26 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 14:12 neoghaleon55 wrote:HOW DARE YOU peons drag DRG's name through the dirt for your triffling quabbles!? Here's the direct quote: Q: Lately, there was a patch that affected Zerg.
It’s definitely become easier since the patch. I’m not too happy with it though. The patch helped all Zergs. I was already good before the patch but now there’s no advantage for high level players like me. ZvT has become easier since the patch. DRG said the patch helped all zergs. The reason he doesn't like it was because it is now harder to show off how much BETTER he is than everyone else. Honestly, as a DRG-fanatic, I still think he's just speaking out of ego. DRG has died to stupid early game attacks before, deep inside he's thankful for the patch, but he's not showing weakness. ^_~ lol, I guess when people don't have a good argument for why they dislike the patches they gotta resort to blatent lying about what pros say. After a bit of play, Queens in ZvZ are sooo nice now, makes them much more useful for picking off banelings now.
You're the one who admitted that people were dealing with Hellions just fine, which completely invalidates any reason for this patch to even exist.
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i am a top 25 masters random who plays only macro games i do not cheese because i am random so:
1. as zerg , there are tells to what terran is doing. for example, i know that if i scout 2 marines and a bunker finishing, i can safely assume he only has one barracks building marines if when i return i scout 3 marines near the bunker + a marine making his way. (bunker build time 45 - 25 - 25 ish). There are A LOT of easy tells, especially if terran is doing something really sneaky such as cloakshee or double reactor hellion. with these builds, terran often only builds 1-2 marines, trying to save resources and make their build as efficient as possble. Thus, with heavy tech builds, your 200 hp overlord WILL see something if you send it in at the right time (5:30 for one base shenanigans, 10:00 to see if 2 base all in with thors)
2. What does this do to terran? Well, a lot of terran and protoss complain about being unable to scout zerg. That is, our observers that live only momentarily before they are sniped or our scans dont see a lot because zergs are really difficult to scout. unless the larvae pop the moment you scan, you can't know with 100% certainty how many drones vs units he has and it's really easy to lose a game moving out, thinking you need to punish him when in reality you're just walking out to his huge bane bust or huge roach ling army. so, if i as a terran and protoss (i play random) have to operate on imperfect information while i play against you (when arguably you are the most important race to keep tabs on by scouting in terms of tech swiching/expanding) why should YOU get to operate on perfect information against me?
3. My second point in strengthened by my third. A lot of zergs have become smart and started to metagame terrans so, they know the timing for 2 hellions to shw up off reactor hellions FE. They will pump a swell of lings and surround/kill off the first two hellions which almost always makes the other hellions really really passively controlled/scared to overcommit because he needs them to survive baneling bust. This kind of thing really puts terran in a tough position in terms of scouting because many of us rely on hellions as scouting tools to survive our 3OC builds, or know if we have to turn up the aggression. With queens now being able to defend this, zerg players will be able to simply make queens instead of lings and be rambo aggressive with them, trying to just take out hellions/lay tumors. the thing is, once all the hellions are gone, almost no matter what you lost from them, as a zerg player you feel really happy.
In other news, zvt is ezpz
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Maybe it time for terrans to decide if they want to invest money to stop creep by building ravens. I know it will hurt terrans economically but it might be worth the loss to stop the creep advantage. Plus pdf Works on Queens attack. Auto turret wins 1v1s against queens and takes around 5 sec to kill creep tumor.
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EPT
