EPTJoonie
Patch 1.4.3.2 - Page 83
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-Joonie-
United States3 Posts
Joonie | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
On May 17 2012 10:27 Shiori wrote: This idea that "macro play" should somehow be guaranteed is the true entitlement in this thread, and it's coming squarely from Zerg players. You want to play a drawn out macro game? Learn to hold the all-ins like DRG does. If there weren't any "retarded" 1 base and 2base all-ins, people who just take 5 bases and tech straight to T3 without fear of recourse; that's not an RTS, that's Risk. 4 Hellions denying creep and delaying the Zerg's third at the cost of later Siege Tech, a later Natural (as opposed to 1rax FE) and a lower Marine count is hardly overpowered. You say that but lets look at the TvZ matchup for a second as just one example. Terrans basically have a macro game guarenteed to them if they want it, just do something simple like a 1rax or hellion reactor expand, get quick siege tech if you want to be really safe, and viola! You have a macro game on your hands and there is basically nothing Zerg can do about that except match you in a macro game. Now lets say a Zerg wants to go for a macro game, ok fine you have to be able to hold off whatever all-in the Terran is throwing at you...but first you have to actually figure out if the Terran is all-inning and what type of all-in...welp, turns out slow overlords will never scout anything if a good Terran wants to deny scouting...ok so now you have to flip a coin and try to guess how to hold an all-in that may or may not be coming. Do you see the problem here? If not you probably shouldn't be talking about balance. Frankly, I think ovie speed boost is fantastic and long overdue. I also really like the Queen buff but it's too early to tell if it's too strong or not, all I do know is that the sheer amount of brainless Terran crying makes me really love it especially since I remember back in the day any time Zerg had balance complaints basically every Terran in sight would tell them to shut up and stop QQ'ing. Oh how times have changed. | ||
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teamhozac
404 Posts
On May 17 2012 11:20 BeeNu wrote: You say that but lets look at the TvZ matchup for a second as just one example. Terrans basically have a macro game guarenteed to them if they want it, just do something simple like a 1rax or hellion reactor expand, get quick siege tech if you want to be really safe, and viola! You have a macro game on your hands and there is basically nothing Zerg can do about that except match you in a macro game. Now lets say a Zerg wants to go for a macro game, ok fine you have to be able to hold off whatever all-in the Terran is throwing at you...but first you have to actually figure out if the Terran is all-inning and what type of all-in...welp, turns out slow overlords will never scout anything if a good Terran wants to deny scouting...ok so now you have to flip a coin and try to guess how to hold an all-in that may or may not be coming. Do you see the problem here? If not you probably shouldn't be talking about balance. Frankly, I think ovie speed boost is fantastic and long overdue. I also really like the Queen buff but it's too early to tell if it's too strong or not, all I do know is that the sheer amount of brainless Terran crying makes me really love it especially since I remember back in the day any time Zerg had balance complaints basically every Terran in sight would tell them to shut up and stop QQ'ing. Oh how times have changed. Get 3 queens and a spine, pretty much covers any early game aggression, if you see the Terran really commit to to an all in you can add lings/banelings/raoches as necessary, what early game pressure have you been losing to anyways? I havent seen a tvz end before the 15 min mark in a long time | ||
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BandonBanshee
Canada437 Posts
On May 17 2012 10:27 Shiori wrote: This idea that "macro play" should somehow be guaranteed is the true entitlement in this thread, and it's coming squarely from Zerg players. You want to play a drawn out macro game? Learn to hold the all-ins like DRG does. If there weren't any "retarded" 1 base and 2base all-ins, people who just take 5 bases and tech straight to T3 without fear of recourse; that's not an RTS, that's Risk. 4 Hellions denying creep and delaying the Zerg's third at the cost of later Siege Tech, a later Natural (as opposed to 1rax FE) and a lower Marine count is hardly overpowered. When did I say it was guaranteed? I agree all ins are part of the game, i'm talking about easy to execute strategies such as easy to abuse bunker spots (where you can't hit the scv with lings or drones). This change still leaves terran with plenty of options to all in,harass and play a macro game. Again your putting words in my mouth, I never said 4 hellions was overpowered. I was just saying you get such an advantage for just making them. You could just park them outside the natural and deny scouting, third and creep. Extra range just helps push them back. | ||
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BandonBanshee
Canada437 Posts
On May 17 2012 11:38 teamhozac wrote: Get 3 queens and a spine, pretty much covers any early game aggression, if you see the Terran really commit to to an all in you can add lings/banelings/raoches as necessary, what early game pressure have you been losing to anyways? I havent seen a tvz end before the 15 min mark in a long time Hozac, how about providing some replays? Your the most vocal person in these threads constantly crying and never taking advice from other players. I can guarantee your losses have NOTHING to do with balance. Your profile is filled with 90% balance whine posts... I always come here expecting a somewhat decent discussion but end up getting frustrated ladder terrans. | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
On May 17 2012 11:38 teamhozac wrote: Get 3 queens and a spine, pretty much covers any early game aggression, if you see the Terran really commit to to an all in you can add lings/banelings/raoches as necessary, what early game pressure have you been losing to anyways? I havent seen a tvz end before the 15 min mark in a long time Uhh, you really miss the point and just seem like you want to do nothing but complain. 3 Queens and a Spine stop all early agression? Sure, what qualifies as "early agression" to you anyways? I don't even know what you're talking about, like a small handful of marines? 4 Hellions? Well guess what, that type of agression shouldn't be ending the game anyways and if you see more defense than you can do damage to then why would you throw your units at it anyways? Nothing you are saying really makes much sense. I agree with BrandonBanshee, show us some replays or stop complaining. | ||
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GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
The fact that there is literally no penalty to making a queen instead of a roach earlygame (infact, making queen is better for defensive and macro purposes) seems ridiculous to me. Queens don't cost larva, don't cost gas, and take up as much food as a roach-which I would understand, if it wasn't so damn defensively versatile. Making 3-5 queens doesn't hurt a zerg at ALL-they don't have to spend larva or gas, and queens are fairly impervious to hellion pressure and slightly worse off against marines. Also worth noting is that you will never not have a use for the 5 queens you make in the early game unless you stay on 3 hatcheries and don't think spreading creep is good. Queens can hold off early harassment exceptionally well while also transitioning into being useful the later the game goes on (but not in combat roles) and allow the zerg very quick creepspreading if there are a handful of queens out. There is practically no reason to NOT build one or two extra queens, since they can save you so much money versus all the harassment that T/P can do by reducing the amount you need to spend on everything else because they are good at defending AND are the zerg macro mechanic.... | ||
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boxturtle
United States224 Posts
On May 17 2012 08:47 VPFaith wrote: There are currently 12 Terran in TOP 50 GM on NA right now. There are currently 14 Terran in Range 50-100 on NA right now. There are currently 22 Terran in Range 101-200 on NA right now Total of 48 Terran in NA Grandmaster League right now. That's less than 25%. Also note, there are only 5 Random players in GM right now. There are 75 Zergs on NA GM League. --------> 38% There are 72 Protoss on NA GM league. --------> 36% Imagine the ratio for next week. :D This isn't balance. Terran is just a lot harder in the late game to use than Zerg/Protoss, and us NA people have this weird habit of wanting to take games later than KR players. It may be ingrained in us because our "heroes" and favorite pros all hate this thing called "cheese" and praise macro. It's been said by many that Terrans are clearly the hardest race to macro with in the late game. Also, it appears to most that Terrans are weaker than Zerg or Protoss in the late game because they lose in straight up battles on open fields and have inferior reinforcing abilities. When you get a demographic of players that praise macro, you're going to see less Terrans. | ||
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david0925
212 Posts
On May 17 2012 13:59 boxturtle wrote: This isn't balance. Terran is just a lot harder in the late game to use than Zerg/Protoss, and us NA people have this weird habit of wanting to take games later than KR players. It may be ingrained in us because our "heroes" and favorite pros all hate this thing called "cheese" and praise macro. It's been said by many that Terrans are clearly the hardest race to macro with in the late game. Also, it appears to most that Terrans are weaker than Zerg or Protoss in the late game because they lose in straight up battles on open fields and have inferior reinforcing abilities. When you get a demographic of players that praise macro, you're going to see less Terrans. This is definitely one reason. While I do think that Terran should receive some kind of buff to their late-game production (Zerg had similar mechanic compared to SC1, and Protoss has Warpgate in Sc2), people also need to get out of the "10minute no rush mentality". All-in are symbolized as signs of weakness on NA and here in TL, when it is a very legitimate strategy targeted at greedy opponents. Cheese (I don't even think this word should exist, but I'll use it) is something that is used because people get greedy and not scout as well as they should have. | ||
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4ZakeN87
Sweden1071 Posts
The queens are crazy good and on top of that is it almost impossible to deny scouting now. If an early push get scouted well before by the zerg it should fail, otherwise the zerg does something wrong. I am actually surprised that this feeling has not been more expressed yet in the pro scene. I think the ZvT win ratio will go heavily in to zergs favor unless the terrans comes up with something new, long time since I felt a patch moving the balance this badily to be honest. | ||
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RiPPy
Norway23 Posts
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guN-viCe
United States687 Posts
I wish they would buff tanks(damage or siege time) or thors(remove mana or reduce build time). | ||
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Dumbtruck
56 Posts
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
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HwangjaeTerran
Finland5967 Posts
I want to believe in Blizzards intentions to make it a good game regardless of how off it was at launch. | ||
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Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
On May 17 2012 10:36 GhostOwl wrote: Well, its more: Zergs could not micro against terran because of range disadvantage and always have to commit to a defence / offence or run away. Now a single unit has the same range as a marine and terrans cry foul ;/Unprepared Zergs actually have some sort of micro-chance and don't die instantly when T cheeses them! What is this madness..this is unacceptable | ||
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CyDe
United States1010 Posts
On May 17 2012 19:05 Dumbtruck wrote: I don't know why someones crie about terran having a safe way to go macro. It's not like terran is the weakest race in the late game lol I mean... what is then? Otherwise why would terrans refuse to GO macro, if for another reason besides that their late game sucks? | ||
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Torra
Norway469 Posts
On May 17 2012 19:05 Dumbtruck wrote: I don't know why someones crie about terran having a safe way to go macro. It's not like terran is the weakest race in the late game lol Terran is the weakest race in late game. 1) Their T3 is inferior to the other races. 2) The mechanics of the other races are much better for late game. (WG instant reinforce, zerg can remax more easily) 3) Terrans have the hardest time dealing with tech switches. The best thing about terran late game is macro orbitals. | ||
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
On May 17 2012 19:41 HwangjaeTerran wrote: I have taken an optimistic view on the continuous terran nerfs. Maybe they are trying to nerf the current Terran little by little until Koreans no longer come up with a solution to get that 50%+ winrate. After that it's easier to start buffing mech & making it more versatile with HoTS therefore making SC2, atleast the T match-ups, more interesting and fun. I want to believe in Blizzards intentions to make it a good game regardless of how off it was at launch. Made a little fix. =P Jokes aside. I have been thinking this one myself too that blizzard might possibly be preparing terran for HotS with all the nerfs. It is not like other races are not getting game changing buffs either, but they might be giving terran little more to make factory and starport techs to be able to stand on their own little bit better without the need to rely on barrack tech too much to get the ball rolling with those two tech paths faster than they do now. Could still be miles off though. | ||
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
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