EPTO_O
Patch 1.4.3.2 - Page 87
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Mohdoo
United States15690 Posts
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BeeNu
615 Posts
On May 21 2012 02:15 Mohdoo wrote: Zerg has gone from too little scouting to 100% map awareness O_O Did you see Stephano's match vs MC on Daybreak? It was stunning how good and accurate his map awareness was in that game, literally knew every little move MC made and exploited it at every turn. I feel like people are gonna need to be more aware of how powerful of a tool Overlords are and find ways to clear them out and deny map scouting more, make information wars much more important. Information and map awareness is everything in this game, it's actually a bit staggering how much you can toy with your opponents if you can keep them blind. | ||
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teamhozac
404 Posts
On May 21 2012 02:10 BeeNu wrote: Yeah but the big difference is you don't just blindly run your Queens into your opponents base and kill 20 workers if one of their units wasn't in a 100% correct position to block em, Queens take a long time to build up in numbers, only really work defensively and as a late-game support unit, I think their current role is fantastic. Also if I can use MLG as a nice example, both DRG and IdrA used a bunch of early game Queens to spread creep and defend, it worked out really nicely for them but in no way did it win them the game, they still lost vs Terrans. I don't see Queens as being that big of a game changer, just makes creep spread more viable and lets Zerg push for early game map control vs Hellions and makes Ultras actually a bit more viable late game too if you can keep your creep spread up and have Queen support. I really don't see this as being an "op" problem at all, just something Terrans will need to adapt to a little bit and they will be just fine. And yes, Hellions aren't all that useful late-game unless you're going pure Mech but whatever, you'll most likely have Battle Hellions with HOTS to alleviate this problem so just chill out. Pretty funny how all Terran issues will be fixed in HotS... Zerg and Protoss issues fixed immediately after any major tournament showcases a new strategy | ||
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dashiz
Costa Rica193 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On May 23 2012 02:44 teamhozac wrote: Pretty funny how all Terran issues will be fixed in HotS... Zerg and Protoss issues fixed immediately after any major tournament showcases a new strategy I guess I will never understand Terran whining when Terran has had the best win percentage for 10 of the last 12 months. http://imgur.com/a/TC9DB I think so far in SC2 history it has been pretty clear that Terran has been the most successful and powerful race in terms of results. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On May 21 2012 02:22 BeeNu wrote: Did you see Stephano's match vs MC on Daybreak? It was stunning how good and accurate his map awareness was in that game, literally knew every little move MC made and exploited it at every turn. I feel like people are gonna need to be more aware of how powerful of a tool Overlords are and find ways to clear them out and deny map scouting more, make information wars much more important. Information and map awareness is everything in this game, it's actually a bit staggering how much you can toy with your opponents if you can keep them blind. There's very little way for a Protoss player to deny Overlord scouting in the early game, since Stalkers don't come for awhile off of a FFE. I can see Terrans being more cautious of them, because they often get Vikings and already have Marines fairly early, but Protoss really got the shaft when it comes to this patch, which had unwanted affects on PvZ even though it was directed at TvZ. | ||
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31415926535
Switzerland276 Posts
On May 21 2012 02:22 BeeNu wrote: Did you see Stephano's match vs MC on Daybreak? It was stunning how good and accurate his map awareness was in that game, literally knew every little move MC made and exploited it at every turn. I feel like people are gonna need to be more aware of how powerful of a tool Overlords are and find ways to clear them out and deny map scouting more, make information wars much more important. Information and map awareness is everything in this game, it's actually a bit staggering how much you can toy with your opponents if you can keep them blind. Maybe Phenix will be more used in PvZ ? Building one or two should completely deny overlord scouting. Stargate is an investment though and it's not an early-game solution. I think this is definitely an interesting change, we'll have to wait for some time to let pro adapt. | ||
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31415926535
Switzerland276 Posts
On May 23 2012 02:49 Shiori wrote: There's very little way for a Protoss player to deny Overlord scouting in the early game, since Stalkers don't come for awhile off of a FFE. I can see Terrans being more cautious of them, because they often get Vikings and already have Marines fairly early, but Protoss really got the shaft when it comes to this patch, which had unwanted affects on PvZ even though it was directed at TvZ. It seems to me it will make some Protoss all-ins/timings builds (+1 mass zealots or blink stalker) much less efficient (since the zerg will scout it earlier). Not sure if this will have an impact on mid to lategame strats though. So I don't know, if this means less all-ins, maybe that's not too bad of a patch. | ||
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Catch]22
Sweden2683 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On May 23 2012 02:55 31415926535 wrote: It seems to me it will make some Protoss all-ins/timings builds (+1 mass zealots or blink stalker) much less efficient (since the zerg will scout it earlier). Not sure if this will have an impact on mid to lategame strats though. So I don't know, if this means less all-ins, maybe that's not too bad of a patch. It would appear that I need to say this again: patching all-ins out of the game is stupid unless the all-in is overpowered. I have no idea why this community has such a knee-jerk hatred of all-ins, but they're a part of the game, and they need to be in order to stop players from playing ridiculously greedy every single game. The only reason that Zerg players actually make units (hell, the only reason they make a Roach Warren) is because there's the possibility of pressure. Aside from the fact that this patch makes the +1 4gate Zealot pressure basically irrelevant due to the fact that Queens can significantly delay (if not counter) it, we just have another scenario in which standard Zerg play is being made immune to more pressures. What's next? For 100 energy Queens can cast Fungal to help with 7 gate Blink all-ins? Obviously that would be a terrible idea, but it's the same sort of mentality that allows for these Zerg buffs. Droning to 80 before 10 minutes is game over for the Terran/Protoss opponent, so there need to be reliable ways of preventing it. Hellions were one of these ways because they delayed the third and forced the Zerg to make Roaches/units that weren't Drones. Now, I still don't know why Blizzard thought that Hellions were a problem, especially since top players seemed to have no difficulty fending them off (yeah, once in a blue moon someone will lose a mineral line because they mispositioned them, but then again, sometimes a Terran will leave a Supply Depot down and get a Ling runby). But not we just have another strategy severely weakened, making the game more and more of a stale, NR 15 experience in XvZ. | ||
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Baseic
Netherlands310 Posts
On May 23 2012 02:55 31415926535 wrote: It seems to me it will make some Protoss all-ins/timings builds (+1 mass zealots or blink stalker) much less efficient (since the zerg will scout it earlier). Not sure if this will have an impact on mid to lategame strats though. So I don't know, if this means less all-ins, maybe that's not too bad of a patch. To be honest, I never lost to a 2 base all-in of a FFE because I could't scout it, I lose to the all-ins because they're really strong. Pretty much all scouting I have to do is checking gas, which is vital for ZvP and hasn't really been changed with the patch. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On May 23 2012 02:48 dashiz wrote: Queens rape reapers now... once again, cya reapers. With they way things are developing as result of patching, I feel reapers should be removed from the game all together. They have little to no use. The only thing I can think of is the quick scout in TvT and TvP, but even then you assume alot of risk as a result. My Opinion + Show Spoiler + Dump the reaper, replace with the FireBat(With BW Stats. The SC2 Campaign Firebat was too buff and would be really OP together with marauders.). Replace Hellion Flamethrower with AutoTurret like attack and give it Mines that are considered Air unit like PDD, but only attacks ground units. As a result you can still mine drag, but you can't minesweep with Collosi. | ||
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FT.aCt)Sony
United States1047 Posts
On May 23 2012 03:16 GinDo wrote: With they way things are developing as result of patching, I feel reapers should be removed from the game all together. They have little to no use. The only thing I can think of is the quick scout in TvT and TvP, but even then you assume alot of risk as a result. My Opinion + Show Spoiler + Dump the reaper, replace with the FireBat(With BW Stats. The SC2 Campaign Firebat was too buff and would be really OP together with marauders.). Replace Hellion Flamethrower with AutoTurret like attack and give it Mines that are considered Air unit like PDD, but only attacks ground units. As a result you can still mine drag, but you can't minesweep with Collosi. Then you will still have a op composition. For every single thing you're inputting, you need to remove one thing. For the mines that are air then remove Thors. If you get rid of blueflame you already had firebats put into place hence no auto turret needed. You have a poor sense of looking at the balance. | ||
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teamhozac
404 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On May 23 2012 03:39 teamhozac wrote: The worst thing that could have possibly happened for Terran players everywhere was MVP winning GSL, again. This is just going to add fuel to the "Terran players just need to play better" "MVP is Terran and won the GSL four times, you guys just suck" sigh In PvT this is precisely what Terrans need to be doing. There is virtually no evidence provided of top level Terrans outplaying top level Protoss players in the lategame and still losing. I have yet to see any replays which demonstrate this. I've seen plenty of replays from ladder Terrans of varying leagues in which a fatal mistake costs them the game (their "outplaying" of the other player is usually extremely exaggerated) but none which establish the complaint made by you and others that TvP is unplayable in the lategame. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On May 23 2012 03:39 teamhozac wrote: The worst thing that could have possibly happened for Terran players everywhere was MVP winning GSL, again. This is just going to add fuel to the "Terran players just need to play better" "MVP is Terran and won the GSL four times, you guys just suck" sigh Zerg won the first 2 GSLs (or was it 3? ) The race was still weak and was patched accordingly. This is why "but x race is fine..it won GSL, l2p" is a stupid argument. | ||
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teamhozac
404 Posts
On May 23 2012 03:48 Sapphire.lux wrote: Zerg won the first 2 GSLs (or was it 3? ) The race was still weak and was patched accordingly. This is why "but x race is fine..it won GSL, l2p" is a stupid argument. I guarentee you hundreds of people on this very site will use that argument whenever someone mentions late game tvp... "LOL MVP won GSL by beating like 4 protosses you just suck haha l2p" If you notice, not one of MVP's victories came in the late game, what does that tell you? anyways were regressing didnt mean to bring this in here... I am curious, are there any updated statistics on ladder population? I havent seen an updated one since season 5 | ||
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Psychlone
Canada90 Posts
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Uncultured
United States1340 Posts
On May 23 2012 03:55 teamhozac wrote: If you notice, not one of MVP's victories came in the late game, what does that tell you? It tells me you didn't watch the games. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
That or we don't take more than 4-6 gases because we know that we can't use more anyway, which is kinda equivalent: the more bases Protoss has, the more gas he can dump in units, but it doesn't hold at all for Terran. It's probably the key to Terran lategame alleged weakness. And please, no "mass ravens!", unless you're very confident in your argumentary skills and think you can convince me ;D | ||
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