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On May 23 2012 21:54 pOnarreT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 21:18 teamhozac wrote:On May 23 2012 04:29 Shiori wrote:On May 23 2012 04:26 teamhozac wrote:On May 23 2012 04:18 Uncultured wrote:On May 23 2012 03:55 teamhozac wrote:On May 23 2012 03:48 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 23 2012 03:39 teamhozac wrote:
The worst thing that could have possibly happened for Terran players everywhere was MVP winning GSL, again. This is just going to add fuel to the "Terran players just need to play better" "MVP is Terran and won the GSL four times, you guys just suck" sigh Zerg won the first 2 GSLs (or was it 3? ) The race was still weak and was patched accordingly. This is why "but x race is fine..it won GSL, l2p" is a stupid argument. If you notice, not one of MVP's victories came in the late game, what does that tell you? It tells me you didn't watch the games. Every game he tried to macro against squirtle he lost... the only somehwat "late game" he won was because squirtle had a terrible engagement, clearly, YOU didnt watch the games Kinda like how the only macro game Squirtle won was the one where MVP had a terrible engagement. Still waiting on replays of Terrans engaging perfectly and still losing. Youre missing the point, OBVIOUSLY engaging "perfectly" you will win, its just that engaging perfectly as Terran is MUCH harder than engaging "perfectly" as protoss, that is the issue. Players like MVP and MKP can obviously engage well against protoss because they are fucking boss, but 99% of us are nowhere near that level, making engaging perfectly as you state it, nearly impossible. And THAT is the problem with late game tvp, may be balanced at the very tippy top, but it certainly is not at the lower levels, and you know it. Only the tippy top matters, don't blame balance, blame yourself for sucking and not being good enough. Would you change the rules to lower the ring in basketball because at the tippy top players are too tall and jump high? No, you train and find ways to overcome obstacles in your condition. That is the case on every competition. Maybe you just need to admit to yourself that you're not good enough. Ofcourse you will say the lower level argument, the solution is simple: get better
If its unbalanced for everyone except MVP, then no one is going to bother to get good enough to reach his lvl in the first place. I'm not saying it should be balanced around bronze league, but when its still in imbalanced all the way into top grandmaster, something needs to be done.
But first, Fix PvZ please.
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so after the patch been out a while now this is what i think
prepatch i found zvp to be pretty hard and zvt to be ok matchup but a little hard to scout.
with the patch they fixed my scouting issues i had against terran, but with the queen change aswell my zvt has become like a lot more comfortable, tvz feels kind of the same to me.
but the patch didnt help my zvp at all :/
the overlord change felt amazing prepatch to hear it announced and after playing with this a while now im glad they did this. but the queen change feels like it only helped in zvt in areas where it not necessarily that needed while in zvp it didnt help at all.
if they are planning a new patch i think they should consider reverting the queens and buff zerg in some other way that would help in zvp rather than helping in zvt
tvp matchup i dont feel too comfortable commenting on since im not prolevel in that matchup but late game tvp has been around for a long time and been like this. i dont know why people start commenting that toss can remax during the battle with 5second warpins when this has been the case ever since sc2 came out.
i guess nobody talked about it before because most games ended before it got to this point but now the fact is toss players are good and safe enough to survive to 200 food
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On May 23 2012 21:49 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 03:16 GinDo wrote:On May 23 2012 02:48 dashiz wrote:
Queens rape reapers now... once again, cya reapers. With they way things are developing as result of patching, I feel reapers should be removed from the game all together. They have little to no use. The only thing I can think of is the quick scout in TvT and TvP, but even then you assume alot of risk as a result. My Opinion + Show Spoiler + Dump the reaper, replace with the FireBat(With BW Stats. The SC2 Campaign Firebat was too buff and would be really OP together with marauders.). Replace Hellion Flamethrower with AutoTurret like attack and give it Mines that are considered Air unit like PDD, but only attacks ground units. As a result you can still mine drag, but you can't minesweep with Collosi. I wish they would fix the reaper. It's got the potential to be among the most interesting units in the game (filled with boring ass units). They just haven't found the role for it yet. Maybe it could be made more viable as part of the main army, give it two modes or something.
IMO reaper was always a late game unit (t3) that they shoehorned into t1. The ability to jump cliffs at will (no cooldown) on a fast unit that specializes in anti building/light simply has too many advantages to be allowed early game. I would push it to the FAR late game and make it the unit it was originally intended to be (innate speed, fast build, possibly even an upgrade for the strike mines). As an added bonus this would provide harass progression from dropship play and provide a gas sink for lategame terran.
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T players who keep building up a late game army of T1 bio against T2/T3 gas-heavy AOE P max army are like the lab rat that continues to push the button and shock itself even after the food stops coming. Starcraft 2 is designed in such a way that expensive units beat less expensive units, and AOE--because of its cost effectiveness--is essential late game. Though I fear that once T players finally figure this out in a month or two, that there will be some other group of people whining about something. This is an incredibly tiresome aspect of following this game.
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On May 23 2012 22:34 jdsowa wrote:
T players who keep building up a late game army of T1 bio against T2/T3 gas-heavy AOE P max army are like the lab rat that continues to push the button and shock itself even after the food stops coming. Starcraft 2 is designed in such a way that expensive units beat less expensive units, and AOE--because of its cost effectiveness--is essential late game. Though I fear that once T players finally figure this out in a month or two, that there will be some other group of people whining about something. This is an incredibly tiresome aspect of following this game.
No they don't Terran expensive units get beat by the low tier units in every mu even TvT because they suck.
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On May 23 2012 22:34 jdsowa wrote:
T players who keep building up a late game army of T1 bio against T2/T3 gas-heavy AOE P max army are like the lab rat that continues to push the button and shock itself even after the food stops coming. Starcraft 2 is designed in such a way that expensive units beat less expensive units, and AOE--because of its cost effectiveness--is essential late game. Though I fear that once T players finally figure this out in a month or two, that there will be some other group of people whining about something. This is an incredibly tiresome aspect of following this game.
There are people who are earning a living from this game. There are hundreads of terran players in korea and around the world who's salaries depend on them being good at this game. If terran had a viable late game unit composition other than bio, don't you think those people who have been playing this game for 2 years and are paid money to be GOOD at this game would have discovered it by now? Did you see what happened when MvP got 3-3 battle cruisers? They fought at 200 suply each. After the battle, MvP had 90 supply, and Squirtle had 200 supply. That's what happens when terran gets their "T3 gas heavy army".
Do you have any idea how egotistical it is for you to state that terrans are loosing because they are not building tier 3 units, when the best players in the world cannot find a viable late game composition for terran? If they can't find it, what makes you so confident that it exists?
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On May 23 2012 21:49 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 03:16 GinDo wrote:On May 23 2012 02:48 dashiz wrote:
Queens rape reapers now... once again, cya reapers. With they way things are developing as result of patching, I feel reapers should be removed from the game all together. They have little to no use. The only thing I can think of is the quick scout in TvT and TvP, but even then you assume alot of risk as a result. My Opinion + Show Spoiler + Dump the reaper, replace with the FireBat(With BW Stats. The SC2 Campaign Firebat was too buff and would be really OP together with marauders.). Replace Hellion Flamethrower with AutoTurret like attack and give it Mines that are considered Air unit like PDD, but only attacks ground units. As a result you can still mine drag, but you can't minesweep with Collosi. I wish they would fix the reaper. It's got the potential to be among the most interesting units in the game (filled with boring ass units). They just haven't found the role for it yet. Maybe it could be made more viable as part of the main army, give it two modes or something.
Reapers have potential in endgame TvP, so changing them right now might change up too much.
On May 23 2012 22:34 jdsowa wrote:
T players who keep building up a late game army of T1 bio against T2/T3 gas-heavy AOE P max army are like the lab rat that continues to push the button and shock itself even after the food stops coming. Starcraft 2 is designed in such a way that expensive units beat less expensive units, and AOE--because of its cost effectiveness--is essential late game. Though I fear that once T players finally figure this out in a month or two, that there will be some other group of people whining about something. This is an incredibly tiresome aspect of following this game.
Your post is on the level of terrans telling zergs to make more nydus worms in the beginning of SC2. You have no idea what you're talking about in any part of your post.
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On May 23 2012 23:19 thepeonwhocould wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 22:34 jdsowa wrote:
T players who keep building up a late game army of T1 bio against T2/T3 gas-heavy AOE P max army are like the lab rat that continues to push the button and shock itself even after the food stops coming. Starcraft 2 is designed in such a way that expensive units beat less expensive units, and AOE--because of its cost effectiveness--is essential late game. Though I fear that once T players finally figure this out in a month or two, that there will be some other group of people whining about something. This is an incredibly tiresome aspect of following this game. There are people who are earning a living from this game. There are hundreads of terran players in korea and around the world who's salaries depend on them being good at this game. If terran had a viable late game unit composition other than bio, don't you think those people who have been playing this game for 2 years and are paid money to be GOOD at this game would have discovered it by now? Did you see what happened when MvP got 3-3 battle cruisers? They fought at 200 suply each. After the battle, MvP had 90 supply, and Squirtle had 200 supply. That's what happens when terran gets their "T3 gas heavy army". Do you have any idea how egotistical it is for you to state that terrans are loosing because they are not building tier 3 units, when the best players in the world cannot find a viable late game composition for terran? If they can't find it, what makes you so confident that it exists?
That's not EXACTLY true. We've seen many times where Zerg and Protoss pros sit on their hands, pulling out the same crappy strats that continue to lose in high profile games. However, they don't play these strats because that's all they can play, but rather because they win in practice. Same can be said for Terran.
That being said, however, we do have quite a bit of evidence to the contrary about mech being viable in TvP, and the pitfalls of marine tank on much larger maps. There might be something out there for Terran yet, but every strategical advantage they find keeps getting patched out in record time.
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On May 23 2012 23:19 thepeonwhocould wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 22:34 jdsowa wrote:
T players who keep building up a late game army of T1 bio against T2/T3 gas-heavy AOE P max army are like the lab rat that continues to push the button and shock itself even after the food stops coming. Starcraft 2 is designed in such a way that expensive units beat less expensive units, and AOE--because of its cost effectiveness--is essential late game. Though I fear that once T players finally figure this out in a month or two, that there will be some other group of people whining about something. This is an incredibly tiresome aspect of following this game. There are people who are earning a living from this game. There are hundreads of terran players in korea and around the world who's salaries depend on them being good at this game. If terran had a viable late game unit composition other than bio, don't you think those people who have been playing this game for 2 years and are paid money to be GOOD at this game would have discovered it by now? Did you see what happened when MvP got 3-3 battle cruisers? They fought at 200 suply each. After the battle, MvP had 90 supply, and Squirtle had 200 supply. That's what happens when terran gets their "T3 gas heavy army". Do you have any idea how egotistical it is for you to state that terrans are loosing because they are not building tier 3 units, when the best players in the world cannot find a viable late game composition for terran? If they can't find it, what makes you so confident that it exists?
Thats like saying that PvZ is overpowered for protoss because if Zerg stack up their broods like a tool then they all get killed... if you stack 15 battlecruisers into a vortex then quite frankly you deserve to lose...
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On May 23 2012 23:52 NexUmbra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 23:19 thepeonwhocould wrote:On May 23 2012 22:34 jdsowa wrote:
T players who keep building up a late game army of T1 bio against T2/T3 gas-heavy AOE P max army are like the lab rat that continues to push the button and shock itself even after the food stops coming. Starcraft 2 is designed in such a way that expensive units beat less expensive units, and AOE--because of its cost effectiveness--is essential late game. Though I fear that once T players finally figure this out in a month or two, that there will be some other group of people whining about something. This is an incredibly tiresome aspect of following this game. There are people who are earning a living from this game. There are hundreads of terran players in korea and around the world who's salaries depend on them being good at this game. If terran had a viable late game unit composition other than bio, don't you think those people who have been playing this game for 2 years and are paid money to be GOOD at this game would have discovered it by now? Did you see what happened when MvP got 3-3 battle cruisers? They fought at 200 suply each. After the battle, MvP had 90 supply, and Squirtle had 200 supply. That's what happens when terran gets their "T3 gas heavy army". Do you have any idea how egotistical it is for you to state that terrans are loosing because they are not building tier 3 units, when the best players in the world cannot find a viable late game composition for terran? If they can't find it, what makes you so confident that it exists? Thats like saying that PvZ is overpowered for protoss because if Zerg stack up their broods like a tool then they all get killed... if you stack 15 battlecruisers into a vortex then quite frankly you deserve to lose...
The BCs die regardless of vortexes.
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On May 23 2012 23:19 thepeonwhocould wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 22:34 jdsowa wrote:
T players who keep building up a late game army of T1 bio against T2/T3 gas-heavy AOE P max army are like the lab rat that continues to push the button and shock itself even after the food stops coming. Starcraft 2 is designed in such a way that expensive units beat less expensive units, and AOE--because of its cost effectiveness--is essential late game. Though I fear that once T players finally figure this out in a month or two, that there will be some other group of people whining about something. This is an incredibly tiresome aspect of following this game. There are people who are earning a living from this game. There are hundreads of terran players in korea and around the world who's salaries depend on them being good at this game. If terran had a viable late game unit composition other than bio, don't you think those people who have been playing this game for 2 years and are paid money to be GOOD at this game would have discovered it by now? Did you see what happened when MvP got 3-3 battle cruisers? They fought at 200 suply each. After the battle, MvP had 90 supply, and Squirtle had 200 supply. That's what happens when terran gets their "T3 gas heavy army". Do you have any idea how egotistical it is for you to state that terrans are loosing because they are not building tier 3 units, when the best players in the world cannot find a viable late game composition for terran? If they can't find it, what makes you so confident that it exists?
man very good points
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On May 23 2012 22:34 jdsowa wrote:
T players who keep building up a late game army of T1 bio against T2/T3 gas-heavy AOE P max army are like the lab rat that continues to push the button and shock itself even after the food stops coming. Starcraft 2 is designed in such a way that expensive units beat less expensive units, and AOE--because of its cost effectiveness--is essential late game. Though I fear that once T players finally figure this out in a month or two, that there will be some other group of people whining about something. This is an incredibly tiresome aspect of following this game.
First of all, all this talk of "tiers' doesn't really apply to sc2, and especially Terran, where everything is "support." You don't see people massing thor because it beats everything else...
Secondly, and related, I really disagree with the bolded part. Expensive units beat less expensive units? Sc2 isn't about rock paper and scissors. It's not a "well i've got more t3 than you, so you lose." A thor will still die to a few zealots, and roaches will still destroy a colossus. The game isn't a contest about who can get the most tier 3. If it were, it would be extremely boring.
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people seem to forget that t1 + propper support terran armies are most of the time more exspensive in army value than protoss with their t3 tech.
Toss armies are actualy prety cheap, its just that their tech unlike terran costs alot of money.
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On May 23 2012 22:25 MorroW wrote:
so after the patch been out a while now this is what i think
prepatch i found zvp to be pretty hard and zvt to be ok matchup but a little hard to scout.
with the patch they fixed my scouting issues i had against terran, but with the queen change aswell my zvt has become like a lot more comfortable, tvz feels kind of the same to me.
but the patch didnt help my zvp at all :/
the overlord change felt amazing prepatch to hear it announced and after playing with this a while now im glad they did this. but the queen change feels like it only helped in zvt in areas where it not necessarily that needed while in zvp it didnt help at all.
if they are planning a new patch i think they should consider reverting the queens and buff zerg in some other way that would help in zvp rather than helping in zvt
tvp matchup i dont feel too comfortable commenting on since im not prolevel in that matchup but late game tvp has been around for a long time and been like this. i dont know why people start commenting that toss can remax during the battle with 5second warpins when this has been the case ever since sc2 came out.
i guess nobody talked about it before because most games ended before it got to this point but now the fact is toss players are good and safe enough to survive to 200 food
What do you need help in ZvP?
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On May 23 2012 23:56 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 23:52 NexUmbra wrote:On May 23 2012 23:19 thepeonwhocould wrote:On May 23 2012 22:34 jdsowa wrote:
T players who keep building up a late game army of T1 bio against T2/T3 gas-heavy AOE P max army are like the lab rat that continues to push the button and shock itself even after the food stops coming. Starcraft 2 is designed in such a way that expensive units beat less expensive units, and AOE--because of its cost effectiveness--is essential late game. Though I fear that once T players finally figure this out in a month or two, that there will be some other group of people whining about something. This is an incredibly tiresome aspect of following this game. There are people who are earning a living from this game. There are hundreads of terran players in korea and around the world who's salaries depend on them being good at this game. If terran had a viable late game unit composition other than bio, don't you think those people who have been playing this game for 2 years and are paid money to be GOOD at this game would have discovered it by now? Did you see what happened when MvP got 3-3 battle cruisers? They fought at 200 suply each. After the battle, MvP had 90 supply, and Squirtle had 200 supply. That's what happens when terran gets their "T3 gas heavy army". Do you have any idea how egotistical it is for you to state that terrans are loosing because they are not building tier 3 units, when the best players in the world cannot find a viable late game composition for terran? If they can't find it, what makes you so confident that it exists? Thats like saying that PvZ is overpowered for protoss because if Zerg stack up their broods like a tool then they all get killed... if you stack 15 battlecruisers into a vortex then quite frankly you deserve to lose... The BCs die regardless of vortexes.
Interesting, MVP disagrees with you and in fact said the exact opposite. Outside of Vortex, there is no way Squirtle could possibly have beaten that many BCs.
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On May 24 2012 00:13 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 23:56 Dalavita wrote:On May 23 2012 23:52 NexUmbra wrote:On May 23 2012 23:19 thepeonwhocould wrote:On May 23 2012 22:34 jdsowa wrote:
T players who keep building up a late game army of T1 bio against T2/T3 gas-heavy AOE P max army are like the lab rat that continues to push the button and shock itself even after the food stops coming. Starcraft 2 is designed in such a way that expensive units beat less expensive units, and AOE--because of its cost effectiveness--is essential late game. Though I fear that once T players finally figure this out in a month or two, that there will be some other group of people whining about something. This is an incredibly tiresome aspect of following this game. There are people who are earning a living from this game. There are hundreads of terran players in korea and around the world who's salaries depend on them being good at this game. If terran had a viable late game unit composition other than bio, don't you think those people who have been playing this game for 2 years and are paid money to be GOOD at this game would have discovered it by now? Did you see what happened when MvP got 3-3 battle cruisers? They fought at 200 suply each. After the battle, MvP had 90 supply, and Squirtle had 200 supply. That's what happens when terran gets their "T3 gas heavy army". Do you have any idea how egotistical it is for you to state that terrans are loosing because they are not building tier 3 units, when the best players in the world cannot find a viable late game composition for terran? If they can't find it, what makes you so confident that it exists? Thats like saying that PvZ is overpowered for protoss because if Zerg stack up their broods like a tool then they all get killed... if you stack 15 battlecruisers into a vortex then quite frankly you deserve to lose... The BCs die regardless of vortexes. Interesting, MVP disagrees with you and in fact said the exact opposite. Outside of Vortex, there is no way Squirtle could possibly have beaten that many BCs.
MVP disagrees with me? Link his statement.
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On May 24 2012 00:13 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 23:56 Dalavita wrote:On May 23 2012 23:52 NexUmbra wrote:On May 23 2012 23:19 thepeonwhocould wrote:On May 23 2012 22:34 jdsowa wrote:
T players who keep building up a late game army of T1 bio against T2/T3 gas-heavy AOE P max army are like the lab rat that continues to push the button and shock itself even after the food stops coming. Starcraft 2 is designed in such a way that expensive units beat less expensive units, and AOE--because of its cost effectiveness--is essential late game. Though I fear that once T players finally figure this out in a month or two, that there will be some other group of people whining about something. This is an incredibly tiresome aspect of following this game. There are people who are earning a living from this game. There are hundreads of terran players in korea and around the world who's salaries depend on them being good at this game. If terran had a viable late game unit composition other than bio, don't you think those people who have been playing this game for 2 years and are paid money to be GOOD at this game would have discovered it by now? Did you see what happened when MvP got 3-3 battle cruisers? They fought at 200 suply each. After the battle, MvP had 90 supply, and Squirtle had 200 supply. That's what happens when terran gets their "T3 gas heavy army". Do you have any idea how egotistical it is for you to state that terrans are loosing because they are not building tier 3 units, when the best players in the world cannot find a viable late game composition for terran? If they can't find it, what makes you so confident that it exists? Thats like saying that PvZ is overpowered for protoss because if Zerg stack up their broods like a tool then they all get killed... if you stack 15 battlecruisers into a vortex then quite frankly you deserve to lose... The BCs die regardless of vortexes. Interesting, MVP disagrees with you and in fact said the exact opposite. Outside of Vortex, there is no way Squirtle could possibly have beaten that many BCs.
I don't think you ever saw BC's in big fights against Toss if you think MVP would've won the game. MVP would've barely won the fight but he would've died to reeinforcements of Squirtles insane bank and gateway count pretty soon after. You can't reeinforce an army like that .
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On May 24 2012 00:21 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 00:13 Shiori wrote:On May 23 2012 23:56 Dalavita wrote:On May 23 2012 23:52 NexUmbra wrote:On May 23 2012 23:19 thepeonwhocould wrote:On May 23 2012 22:34 jdsowa wrote:
T players who keep building up a late game army of T1 bio against T2/T3 gas-heavy AOE P max army are like the lab rat that continues to push the button and shock itself even after the food stops coming. Starcraft 2 is designed in such a way that expensive units beat less expensive units, and AOE--because of its cost effectiveness--is essential late game. Though I fear that once T players finally figure this out in a month or two, that there will be some other group of people whining about something. This is an incredibly tiresome aspect of following this game. There are people who are earning a living from this game. There are hundreads of terran players in korea and around the world who's salaries depend on them being good at this game. If terran had a viable late game unit composition other than bio, don't you think those people who have been playing this game for 2 years and are paid money to be GOOD at this game would have discovered it by now? Did you see what happened when MvP got 3-3 battle cruisers? They fought at 200 suply each. After the battle, MvP had 90 supply, and Squirtle had 200 supply. That's what happens when terran gets their "T3 gas heavy army". Do you have any idea how egotistical it is for you to state that terrans are loosing because they are not building tier 3 units, when the best players in the world cannot find a viable late game composition for terran? If they can't find it, what makes you so confident that it exists? Thats like saying that PvZ is overpowered for protoss because if Zerg stack up their broods like a tool then they all get killed... if you stack 15 battlecruisers into a vortex then quite frankly you deserve to lose... The BCs die regardless of vortexes. Interesting, MVP disagrees with you and in fact said the exact opposite. Outside of Vortex, there is no way Squirtle could possibly have beaten that many BCs. MVP disagrees with me? Link his statement.
We are curious as to why you decided on a strategy where you max out on battlecruisers.
Protosses do not know the power of the battlecruisers yet. However, Squirtle seemed to know that a 200/200 battlecruiser army simply cannot die. He conserved his units so well. That must be why I lost.
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remember how many units squirtle still had stuck on the island- lots. Including like 6 HT's.
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Dont worry terran brothers, every time you feel like the game isnt fair just check the tlpd invidual leagues, atleast when I look at there it cheers me up seeing that the game is most likely balanced and fair now!
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EPT
