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Netherlands645 Posts
Wow, that video in the OP did about the worst possible job of comparing the old and new OL and queen.. WAYY too zoomed in to see ANYTHING. I guess it was his first time using a video editing tool so he went crazy on the 'features'..
OL speed increase should help out the pros a lot. The queen change will have a significant impact on the metagame in all Z MUs, we seen a few of those already..
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Was this the patch just implemented?
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On May 15 2012 02:04 DeadCell. wrote:
Was this the patch just implemented?
Yes it was.
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Just leaving this here because people are visual thinkers (and my paint skills rock, obviously). The overkill on the Queen change (with regard to the Hellion contain anyway) doesn't come from reach, but rather area control. This is the effect that makes Marines good in larger numbers and good picking up workers and whatnot even though they're slow and don't deal as much damage as a zealot or anything. Things with reach or a fast move speed control territory by their mere presence. When this area is big (and prone to overlap, such as on chokes), bad things happen and stuff dies alarmingly quickly.
In old patch that area control would be provided by a spine crawler inching forward slowly. Little risk to either side, but a very effective speedbump. Now? Queens are more mobile and frankly just control much more area (and make creep). This is the scary thing about it. They're now pretty much Roaches that shoot air, don't cost larva and can't be mass-manufactured...
At least they ought to sanitize early ZvZ, can't find much else good about them myself. FWIW, I play bug things (like T as well, but bugs just work more naturally) and think they're in a better spot than Terran - were before the patch too. Ovie speed is nice, rest of patch is madness. The area control graphic thing also helps to show just what kinds of dynamics were at work with the EMP nerf too.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7Zbz3.png)
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Blizzard, thank you for making ZvZ more interesting.
Sincerely, me.
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On May 13 2012 06:52 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 06:46 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 13 2012 00:41 s3rp wrote:On May 13 2012 00:29 Ballistixz wrote:On May 12 2012 23:35 BrandFilt wrote:
I hate how zerg think they have a right to over drone and maybe even get a third without making units. And Blizzard balancing "team" seem to think so as well. Where's my free 14CC without getting baneling, roach all-in:ed and die? Well, not that I would care for it that much anyway seeing as the instant reaction from my opponent would be to drone even harder and getting more bases. ....... make a wall and tanks and ur safe to do w/e the hell u want. early- early mid game the zerg cant do anything to terran without it being a stupidly bad all in. and mid-mid game the best thing u can do against terran is harass with mutas. terran is a insanely turtle heavy race that can do pretty much anything they want while turtling up. A wall and tanks is different than not making any unit other than a few Queens and just pumping workers . A) Zerg gets three bases and masses Queens and Drones. or B) Zerg takes gas to build Roaches and Banelings. Pick one, not both. For what would you need Banelings before the Terran has Stim you can't pressure with Stimless Bio against speedlings . Roaches are also only needed if the Terran really invests in Helions. ( 10+ at least ) . With the recent patch the Zerg is almost free to saturate 2 Bases before needing to build any army. And since there's no real reliable way to stop creepspread anymore its also harder to delay the third. And what the guy meant was if as a Terran you 14 CC very easy to Zerg All-Ins since you slow down your tech sooooo much. While the Zerg now gets it for free and can build enough Drones for 3 Bases if they chose to without any real risk unless they play without any defense.
And there was the problem. There was no way for Zerg to tell how many hellions the Terran had hidden in his base if the Terran wanted to deny that information. The only time Zerg ovie scouts actually get that useful information is when the Terran is careless/lazy about his scout denial. New overlord speed helps with this, but 2 marines still kill that ovie real quick. Blizzard realized Zerg needed a little padding, considering how volatile the early game can be, and this queen buff was their answer.
For instance, NesTea would not have auto-lost the first game against Keen in Code A just because Keen placed his factory correctly.
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The little padding is essentially roaches with more range and HP that spread creep and need no larva to make. That Roach Warren was needed for what now? I guess armoured units, yeah. Queens are craptastic against those.
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On May 14 2012 16:10 kain279 wrote:
The obs buff kinda sucks for me. I have developed a great DT rush where I can get three out at around 6:00 (perfect) to 6:30. A few times I have barely killed off the robo (hidden off main base as a last resort) in time to preventthe observer and secure the win. It seems that whenever I find a winning tactic a patch ruins it.
same for me but its my TvZ they intend to fuck over with every patch.... damn you blizzard!
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my tvz must have gone down to like 20% win ratio after patch :D
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aww yea i love this patch, just recently switched to a 4 queen gaseless opener as i prefer it and i just got a BO buff :D.
great for ovies and observers to, better scouting is better for the game imo
Edit i also never realized roaches and queens had similar unupgraded dps, this is even sicker than i though. idk if its enough to push me to make more queens than i already do but having 4 roaches that inject is pretty sweet 
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On May 15 2012 06:09 mrjpark wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 06:52 s3rp wrote:On May 13 2012 06:46 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 13 2012 00:41 s3rp wrote:On May 13 2012 00:29 Ballistixz wrote:On May 12 2012 23:35 BrandFilt wrote:
I hate how zerg think they have a right to over drone and maybe even get a third without making units. And Blizzard balancing "team" seem to think so as well. Where's my free 14CC without getting baneling, roach all-in:ed and die? Well, not that I would care for it that much anyway seeing as the instant reaction from my opponent would be to drone even harder and getting more bases. ....... make a wall and tanks and ur safe to do w/e the hell u want. early- early mid game the zerg cant do anything to terran without it being a stupidly bad all in. and mid-mid game the best thing u can do against terran is harass with mutas. terran is a insanely turtle heavy race that can do pretty much anything they want while turtling up. A wall and tanks is different than not making any unit other than a few Queens and just pumping workers . A) Zerg gets three bases and masses Queens and Drones. or B) Zerg takes gas to build Roaches and Banelings. Pick one, not both. For what would you need Banelings before the Terran has Stim you can't pressure with Stimless Bio against speedlings . Roaches are also only needed if the Terran really invests in Helions. ( 10+ at least ) . With the recent patch the Zerg is almost free to saturate 2 Bases before needing to build any army. And since there's no real reliable way to stop creepspread anymore its also harder to delay the third. And what the guy meant was if as a Terran you 14 CC very easy to Zerg All-Ins since you slow down your tech sooooo much. While the Zerg now gets it for free and can build enough Drones for 3 Bases if they chose to without any real risk unless they play without any defense. And there was the problem. There was no way for Zerg to tell how many hellions the Terran had hidden in his base if the Terran wanted to deny that information. The only time Zerg ovie scouts actually get that useful information is when the Terran is careless/lazy about his scout denial. New overlord speed helps with this, but 2 marines still kill that ovie real quick. Blizzard realized Zerg needed a little padding, considering how volatile the early game can be, and this queen buff was their answer. For instance, NesTea would not have auto-lost the first game against Keen in Code A just because Keen placed his factory correctly.
So you want better scouting AND better defense? Really? How about a win button that you can push anytime you decide you want to win?
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On May 15 2012 06:09 mrjpark wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 06:52 s3rp wrote:On May 13 2012 06:46 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 13 2012 00:41 s3rp wrote:On May 13 2012 00:29 Ballistixz wrote:On May 12 2012 23:35 BrandFilt wrote:
I hate how zerg think they have a right to over drone and maybe even get a third without making units. And Blizzard balancing "team" seem to think so as well. Where's my free 14CC without getting baneling, roach all-in:ed and die? Well, not that I would care for it that much anyway seeing as the instant reaction from my opponent would be to drone even harder and getting more bases. ....... make a wall and tanks and ur safe to do w/e the hell u want. early- early mid game the zerg cant do anything to terran without it being a stupidly bad all in. and mid-mid game the best thing u can do against terran is harass with mutas. terran is a insanely turtle heavy race that can do pretty much anything they want while turtling up. A wall and tanks is different than not making any unit other than a few Queens and just pumping workers . A) Zerg gets three bases and masses Queens and Drones. or B) Zerg takes gas to build Roaches and Banelings. Pick one, not both. For what would you need Banelings before the Terran has Stim you can't pressure with Stimless Bio against speedlings . Roaches are also only needed if the Terran really invests in Helions. ( 10+ at least ) . With the recent patch the Zerg is almost free to saturate 2 Bases before needing to build any army. And since there's no real reliable way to stop creepspread anymore its also harder to delay the third. And what the guy meant was if as a Terran you 14 CC very easy to Zerg All-Ins since you slow down your tech sooooo much. While the Zerg now gets it for free and can build enough Drones for 3 Bases if they chose to without any real risk unless they play without any defense. And there was the problem. There was no way for Zerg to tell how many hellions the Terran had hidden in his base if the Terran wanted to deny that information. The only time Zerg ovie scouts actually get that useful information is when the Terran is careless/lazy about his scout denial. New overlord speed helps with this, but 2 marines still kill that ovie real quick. Blizzard realized Zerg needed a little padding, considering how volatile the early game can be, and this queen buff was their answer. For instance, NesTea would not have auto-lost the first game against Keen in Code A just because Keen placed his factory correctly.
Theres this unit called a mutalisk, and Terran has no way of knowing how many might be hatched at any moment, that unit can fly and is one of the fastest units in the game, but you dont seeing Terran complaining about them
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They want to sell Hots so they want all terrans change race to zerg. Really shitty!!
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Russian Federation142 Posts
On May 17 2012 02:34 ArAyA wrote:
They want to sell Hots so they want all terrans change race to zerg. Really shitty!!
It's already happened, except instead of changing race like they were supposed to they just quit. Can you imagine that? Now the entire ladder is protoss.
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On May 17 2012 02:29 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 06:09 mrjpark wrote:On May 13 2012 06:52 s3rp wrote:On May 13 2012 06:46 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 13 2012 00:41 s3rp wrote:On May 13 2012 00:29 Ballistixz wrote:On May 12 2012 23:35 BrandFilt wrote:
I hate how zerg think they have a right to over drone and maybe even get a third without making units. And Blizzard balancing "team" seem to think so as well. Where's my free 14CC without getting baneling, roach all-in:ed and die? Well, not that I would care for it that much anyway seeing as the instant reaction from my opponent would be to drone even harder and getting more bases. ....... make a wall and tanks and ur safe to do w/e the hell u want. early- early mid game the zerg cant do anything to terran without it being a stupidly bad all in. and mid-mid game the best thing u can do against terran is harass with mutas. terran is a insanely turtle heavy race that can do pretty much anything they want while turtling up. A wall and tanks is different than not making any unit other than a few Queens and just pumping workers . A) Zerg gets three bases and masses Queens and Drones. or B) Zerg takes gas to build Roaches and Banelings. Pick one, not both. For what would you need Banelings before the Terran has Stim you can't pressure with Stimless Bio against speedlings . Roaches are also only needed if the Terran really invests in Helions. ( 10+ at least ) . With the recent patch the Zerg is almost free to saturate 2 Bases before needing to build any army. And since there's no real reliable way to stop creepspread anymore its also harder to delay the third. And what the guy meant was if as a Terran you 14 CC very easy to Zerg All-Ins since you slow down your tech sooooo much. While the Zerg now gets it for free and can build enough Drones for 3 Bases if they chose to without any real risk unless they play without any defense. And there was the problem. There was no way for Zerg to tell how many hellions the Terran had hidden in his base if the Terran wanted to deny that information. The only time Zerg ovie scouts actually get that useful information is when the Terran is careless/lazy about his scout denial. New overlord speed helps with this, but 2 marines still kill that ovie real quick. Blizzard realized Zerg needed a little padding, considering how volatile the early game can be, and this queen buff was their answer. For instance, NesTea would not have auto-lost the first game against Keen in Code A just because Keen placed his factory correctly. Theres this unit called a mutalisk, and Terran has no way of knowing how many might be hatched at any moment, that unit can fly and is one of the fastest units in the game, but you dont seeing Terran complaining about them
You have scans and standard mutalisk timing is ~10 minutes, and if you know what you're doing you have Zerg gas timings as a bench mark too. Plus its not an auto win. Hardly the same as seeing a bunker, 2 supply depots, and a marine and having to determine whether or not you're facing multiple rax, banshees, 2 fact hellion, or a normal hellion expand. Or try playing vs a hellion exand and determine if you're facing a quick 3rd CC, 2 base marine tank timing or marauder hellion all in. Also Terrans did complain about mutas... for the longest time ...so your post is irrelevant on all counts.
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Aren't you bored to whine about the same thing again and again ?
To every problem there is a solution. Just wait for it.
Zerg , terran , protoss , random are OP , who cares ? Blizzard won't make a new patch every week because a bunch of kids are whining about the changes.
It's hard to admit but deal with it : Blizzard doesn't care about you , whining on reddit , Bnet.com or on TL won't change anything , it just set a bad atmosphere in the community.
It seems like some people have forget what "having fun" means.
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On May 17 2012 02:27 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 06:09 mrjpark wrote:On May 13 2012 06:52 s3rp wrote:On May 13 2012 06:46 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 13 2012 00:41 s3rp wrote:On May 13 2012 00:29 Ballistixz wrote:On May 12 2012 23:35 BrandFilt wrote:
I hate how zerg think they have a right to over drone and maybe even get a third without making units. And Blizzard balancing "team" seem to think so as well. Where's my free 14CC without getting baneling, roach all-in:ed and die? Well, not that I would care for it that much anyway seeing as the instant reaction from my opponent would be to drone even harder and getting more bases. ....... make a wall and tanks and ur safe to do w/e the hell u want. early- early mid game the zerg cant do anything to terran without it being a stupidly bad all in. and mid-mid game the best thing u can do against terran is harass with mutas. terran is a insanely turtle heavy race that can do pretty much anything they want while turtling up. A wall and tanks is different than not making any unit other than a few Queens and just pumping workers . A) Zerg gets three bases and masses Queens and Drones. or B) Zerg takes gas to build Roaches and Banelings. Pick one, not both. For what would you need Banelings before the Terran has Stim you can't pressure with Stimless Bio against speedlings . Roaches are also only needed if the Terran really invests in Helions. ( 10+ at least ) . With the recent patch the Zerg is almost free to saturate 2 Bases before needing to build any army. And since there's no real reliable way to stop creepspread anymore its also harder to delay the third. And what the guy meant was if as a Terran you 14 CC very easy to Zerg All-Ins since you slow down your tech sooooo much. While the Zerg now gets it for free and can build enough Drones for 3 Bases if they chose to without any real risk unless they play without any defense. And there was the problem. There was no way for Zerg to tell how many hellions the Terran had hidden in his base if the Terran wanted to deny that information. The only time Zerg ovie scouts actually get that useful information is when the Terran is careless/lazy about his scout denial. New overlord speed helps with this, but 2 marines still kill that ovie real quick. Blizzard realized Zerg needed a little padding, considering how volatile the early game can be, and this queen buff was their answer. For instance, NesTea would not have auto-lost the first game against Keen in Code A just because Keen placed his factory correctly. So you want better scouting AND better defense? Really? How about a win button that you can push anytime you decide you want to win?
The funny part is that better scouting and defense doesnt equate to a "i win button", it's more like a "now I don't auto-lose for reasons beyond my control button". If you don't rely on gimmicks to win this patch shouldn't give you too much trouble.
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On May 17 2012 05:02 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 02:27 teamhozac wrote:On May 15 2012 06:09 mrjpark wrote:On May 13 2012 06:52 s3rp wrote:On May 13 2012 06:46 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 13 2012 00:41 s3rp wrote:On May 13 2012 00:29 Ballistixz wrote:On May 12 2012 23:35 BrandFilt wrote:
I hate how zerg think they have a right to over drone and maybe even get a third without making units. And Blizzard balancing "team" seem to think so as well. Where's my free 14CC without getting baneling, roach all-in:ed and die? Well, not that I would care for it that much anyway seeing as the instant reaction from my opponent would be to drone even harder and getting more bases. ....... make a wall and tanks and ur safe to do w/e the hell u want. early- early mid game the zerg cant do anything to terran without it being a stupidly bad all in. and mid-mid game the best thing u can do against terran is harass with mutas. terran is a insanely turtle heavy race that can do pretty much anything they want while turtling up. A wall and tanks is different than not making any unit other than a few Queens and just pumping workers . A) Zerg gets three bases and masses Queens and Drones. or B) Zerg takes gas to build Roaches and Banelings. Pick one, not both. For what would you need Banelings before the Terran has Stim you can't pressure with Stimless Bio against speedlings . Roaches are also only needed if the Terran really invests in Helions. ( 10+ at least ) . With the recent patch the Zerg is almost free to saturate 2 Bases before needing to build any army. And since there's no real reliable way to stop creepspread anymore its also harder to delay the third. And what the guy meant was if as a Terran you 14 CC very easy to Zerg All-Ins since you slow down your tech sooooo much. While the Zerg now gets it for free and can build enough Drones for 3 Bases if they chose to without any real risk unless they play without any defense. And there was the problem. There was no way for Zerg to tell how many hellions the Terran had hidden in his base if the Terran wanted to deny that information. The only time Zerg ovie scouts actually get that useful information is when the Terran is careless/lazy about his scout denial. New overlord speed helps with this, but 2 marines still kill that ovie real quick. Blizzard realized Zerg needed a little padding, considering how volatile the early game can be, and this queen buff was their answer. For instance, NesTea would not have auto-lost the first game against Keen in Code A just because Keen placed his factory correctly. So you want better scouting AND better defense? Really? How about a win button that you can push anytime you decide you want to win? The funny part is that better scouting and defense doesnt equate to a "i win button", it's more like a "now I don't auto-lose for reasons beyond my control button". If you don't rely on gimmicks to win this patch shouldn't give you too much trouble.
The point isn't that gimmicks should be standard, but that they should be possible. I know players on the ladder hate losing to "stupid shit" but the fact is that having an all-in is crucial to winning BoXs. The fact that it's next to impossible to hide tech against Zerg now means that all-ins become significantly harder to pull off, which in turn means that Zerg players can play greedier, stagnating the matchup. All-ins are good for this game, so long as they're in moderation.
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Pretty much WILD overreacting from everyone outside GM. These changes might make things difficult if you're doing everything else at a top level. If you're below extreme high masters, you have much, much, much bigger things to worry about that are causing your losses -- it ain't the OMG SUPERPOWER queen or the ovie speed.
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EPT
