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On May 10 2012 16:28 Kich wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 11:34 IMoperator wrote:On May 10 2012 11:29 Blazinghand wrote:On May 10 2012 11:25 S_SienZ wrote:
Way to slap Terrans in the face. Terrans have historically had the most success at the professional level, and are generally regarded as the strongest race + Show Spoiler [GSL 2012 S2] +If you don't count the Ro4 results from this most recent GSL . The 5-range queen will be stronger against reapers and hellions, but won't be nearly as strong as the 50-energy queen. Overall, Blizzard made some relatively mild buffs to the non-terran races, and that's okay. These are huge buffs, it changes terrans early game entirely. The three most common openings TvZ were reactor hellion, 2 rax or reaper of some sort. This queen buff just completely denies all of these. Sure, it's not as bad as the 50 energy queen, but it's still pretty bad for terrans. Perhaps the reason those are the most common openings is because they're easy to execute with almost no investment for the terran, yet for the zerg one minor mistake will literally just lose them the game outright? It's not like it's an opening that punishes greedy builds or something, all of those builds punish zergs for being zerg.
Not easy to execute, there's obviously an investment (how can there not be), and what mistake? If anything, it's up to the terran not to get surrounded by lings. If you're dying to 4 hellions, I really don't know what to say.
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On May 10 2012 16:44 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 16:41 Ballistixz wrote:On May 10 2012 16:37 akalarry wrote:On May 10 2012 16:34 Ballistixz wrote:On May 10 2012 16:22 Femari wrote:On May 10 2012 16:19 Ballistixz wrote:On May 10 2012 16:15 KivTM wrote:On May 10 2012 16:03 Ballistixz wrote:
i find it kinda sad that the FIRST thing ppl do with new balance changes is whine there cute lil eyes out instead of THINKING of new builds they can counteract this with.
use your head ppl and evolve. the game and its meta has always evolved with new balance changes. stop crying and waiting for a pro player to show u the light and do it ur damn selves -_-
"hellion openers are dead now"
boy, will these ppl feel stupid once they see pro/top level terrans still going hellion builds and then copy directly off of them.
tip: queens kill hellions stupidly slow. hellions kill queens even slower lol. so whats your point? you do realize that hellions main purpose is to NOT kill a queen right? why try to kill a queen with hellions? there main purpose is to deny creep spread, stop zerg from taking a fast 3rd, clear watch towers, gain map control, and etc. all of which they are still able to do even with the buff to queens.... On May 10 2012 16:19 Femari wrote:On May 10 2012 16:16 Ballistixz wrote:On May 10 2012 16:14 SgtCoDFish wrote:
I'd love for someone to explain how hellions are now "useless" in TvZ
Hellions have 90HP. Queens have an attack power of 4x2, to give 8 if the zerg doesn't micro the queen halfway through the attack. We'll assume zerg's not doing that.
It still takes 12 shots from a queen to kill a single hellion. The queen attacks once every second. There are 4 hellions.
Hellions shouldn't be in range of queens when creep isn't being spread, which occurs once every 30 to 40 seconds; they should be their attack range away from the edge of the creep. When creep is being spread (or if a drone comes out to take a quick third) hellions should be darting in and out to kill or force cancels on tumours.
This patch doesn't change any of the above AT ALL. It just means that hellions will take some extra shots where they wouldn't have before. The micro involved here is pulling back damaged hellions if you really want to engage a queen. But you shouldn't be doing that.
So what does the patch affect with regards to hellion openers? Barely anything; hellions are still a hell (no terrible pun intended) of a lot faster, so any attempts by zerg to spread creep greedily are just as denied as they were before. Darting in and popping a tumour is still the same as it was. There will be a "dance" between hellions and queens to deny creep, but queens aren't going to start spearing hellions and snapping them in half. Hellions will still also deny any attempt to take a third until roaches or lings are out to fend them off.
Hellions are slightly worse, but will still be able to do their job... every time something is nerfed even a little, hordes of people seem to say it's now useless. hellions arnt useless, ppl are just overreacting like babies once again... they will get over it in less then a week once they find out how fail queen DPS truly is. hellions do less damage to queens bud again, whats your point? My point is to show you that the queen's DPS is irrelevant. queen DPS has always been irrelevant and so has hellions... u dont kill a queen with a hellion unless the zerg is awful anyway. the new range buff is simply to fend off a low number of hellions unless the zerg makes a shit ton of queens. why? do people have such a hard time defending against a low number of hellions that blizzard needs to buff the queen? i never have trouble when people reactor hellion expand and use a few hellions to deny creep. also isn't blizzard's main goal to balance at the highest level? tvz is statistically incredibly even. why change it? because its quite obvious how strong terrans early game is and how weak zergs early game is. blizz has been wanting to do something about zergs early game for over a year now (the overlord buff in particular) and now they are finally addressing it without having to nerf terrans early game directly. calm down, the buff isnt OP in the slightest and there is no reason to even complain about it. You're clearly in the minority thinking this.
clearly, because the majority consists of terrans complaining about how hellions are now "useless" TvZ
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On May 10 2012 16:41 SgtCoDFish wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 16:38 Flummie wrote:
It is kinda okay that we zergies finally got a buff but this ruins ZvZ a bit. They need to fix that as well. wtf? How does it ruin ZvZ? This makes queens better vs lings and banes, which means defending ling bane attacks gets easier, which makes ZvZ less volatile in the early game ling bling wars. That's great in my book.
It's just the final nail in the coffin for us zergies... finally we get a much needed buff and then it makes zvz early game weaker for the aggressor.. time to switch terran and diablo 3 next week I guess.. sigh
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I wonder how the Queen anti-ground attack will look with 5 range, since even 3 needs some serious reaching. 
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Interesting patch. Especially with the queen change. Perhaps we won't see as much hellion openings. =)
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On May 10 2012 16:47 Leetley wrote:I wonder how the Queen anti-ground attack will look with 5 range, since even 3 needs some serious reaching.
queen's gonna have to lose some weight or start doing yoga for a 5 reach.
but I really that's the first that came to mind
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On May 10 2012 16:46 Flummie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 16:41 SgtCoDFish wrote:On May 10 2012 16:38 Flummie wrote:
It is kinda okay that we zergies finally got a buff but this ruins ZvZ a bit. They need to fix that as well. wtf? How does it ruin ZvZ? This makes queens better vs lings and banes, which means defending ling bane attacks gets easier, which makes ZvZ less volatile in the early game ling bling wars. That's great in my book. It's just the final nail in the coffin for us zergies... finally we get a much needed buff and then it makes zvz early game weaker for the aggressor.. time to switch terran and diablo 3 next week I guess.. sigh
i hope you are not serious.
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kinsky gets angry....kinsky wants to hurt david kim
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On May 10 2012 11:19 Existor wrote:
Terran
* Bunker is not changed
Must be a fake patch notes... Bunker is always changed
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On May 10 2012 16:44 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 16:40 Femari wrote:On May 10 2012 16:38 Ballistixz wrote:On May 10 2012 16:31 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 10 2012 16:08 Ballistixz wrote:On May 10 2012 16:05 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 10 2012 16:03 Ballistixz wrote:
i find it kinda sad that the FIRST thing ppl do with new balance changes is whine there cute lil eyes out instead of THINKING of new builds they can counteract this with.
use your head ppl and evolve. the game and its meta has always evolved with new balance changes. stop crying and waiting for a pro player to show u the light and do it ur damn selves -_-
"hellion openers are dead now"
boy, will these ppl feel stupid once they see pro/top level terrans still going hellion builds and then copy directly off of them.
tip: queens kill hellions stupidly slow. Except it doesn't just stop hellion openers. It stops like 3-4 different openers. Even IF there becomes a new opener, that will most likely be one of the only ones, simply because Zerg knows the other ones aren't as viable. it doesnt "stop" anything. u do not realize how stupidly bad queen DPS is. make enough marines and they pop... the only thing this buff does is make it to where u need to make MORE of a certain unit instead of getting away with just 4 hellions or 1 or 2 bunkers worth of rines. make more then 4 hellions and u can still easily deny tumors and expansions... u only need one volley to kill a tumor, u really think 6 or so hellions will die by one or 2 queens by the time that volley goes off? please. Except I'm fully aware how quickly queens kill hellions. As it is, they are already an incredibly effective deterrent. There's no way you can deny creep tumors with 4 hellions vs this new change, you're crazy. And you're talking to a Zerg who bases his entire ZvT strategy on creep spread with multiple queens. thats my point and the point of this change. queens are to make it where zerg has a easier time defending against LOW number of hellions, but queens wont do shit against higher hellion counts unless u completely over make a ton of queens. Unless you're terrible you shouldn't have problems defending low amounts of hellions. before patch, u can kite 1 queen with hellions without ever getting touched if u were good. this meant that u can easily contain zerg with only 4 hellions, which was insanely cost effective considering how terran was free to do w/e they wanted behind there nice safe walls. that is now fixed and terrans are not free to do w/e they want anymore, why complain?
if it was so hard to deal with how come pro terrans don't just reactor hellion every single game? you make it sound so perfect and imbalanced? in reality, pro zergs are doing fine against reactor hellion expand. this is supposed to be balanced for competitive play right? if this is for the noobs, then those zerg players could just make lings and easily trap the hellions.
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I really like the queen buff for ZvZ, that matchup really needs to change.
Being able to have map presence early game ZvT will be nice as well.
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Buff to range 4 would be reasonable. Think muta vs phoenix without range upgrade... phoenix outrange it... but mutas still absolutely destroy them due to micro. 4 Range would allow queens to micro vs reapers and helions, not just chase them all day long... 5 range means that the 4 queen no gas build will be THE build to use in TvZ, absolutely no reason to go any other build. Basically, Blizzard telling Terrans to suck it up and accept the fact that they're going to start every game down a base and down production and with no way to apply pressure. Great theory.
Also, can't believe Protoss is getting a buff (minute as it is) and not Terrans, given the absolutely unbelievable state of TvP right now.
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On May 10 2012 16:50 akalarry wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 16:44 Ballistixz wrote:On May 10 2012 16:40 Femari wrote:On May 10 2012 16:38 Ballistixz wrote:On May 10 2012 16:31 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 10 2012 16:08 Ballistixz wrote:On May 10 2012 16:05 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 10 2012 16:03 Ballistixz wrote:
i find it kinda sad that the FIRST thing ppl do with new balance changes is whine there cute lil eyes out instead of THINKING of new builds they can counteract this with.
use your head ppl and evolve. the game and its meta has always evolved with new balance changes. stop crying and waiting for a pro player to show u the light and do it ur damn selves -_-
"hellion openers are dead now"
boy, will these ppl feel stupid once they see pro/top level terrans still going hellion builds and then copy directly off of them.
tip: queens kill hellions stupidly slow. Except it doesn't just stop hellion openers. It stops like 3-4 different openers. Even IF there becomes a new opener, that will most likely be one of the only ones, simply because Zerg knows the other ones aren't as viable. it doesnt "stop" anything. u do not realize how stupidly bad queen DPS is. make enough marines and they pop... the only thing this buff does is make it to where u need to make MORE of a certain unit instead of getting away with just 4 hellions or 1 or 2 bunkers worth of rines. make more then 4 hellions and u can still easily deny tumors and expansions... u only need one volley to kill a tumor, u really think 6 or so hellions will die by one or 2 queens by the time that volley goes off? please. Except I'm fully aware how quickly queens kill hellions. As it is, they are already an incredibly effective deterrent. There's no way you can deny creep tumors with 4 hellions vs this new change, you're crazy. And you're talking to a Zerg who bases his entire ZvT strategy on creep spread with multiple queens. thats my point and the point of this change. queens are to make it where zerg has a easier time defending against LOW number of hellions, but queens wont do shit against higher hellion counts unless u completely over make a ton of queens. Unless you're terrible you shouldn't have problems defending low amounts of hellions. before patch, u can kite 1 queen with hellions without ever getting touched if u were good. this meant that u can easily contain zerg with only 4 hellions, which was insanely cost effective considering how terran was free to do w/e they wanted behind there nice safe walls. that is now fixed and terrans are not free to do w/e they want anymore, why complain? if it was so hard to deal with how come pro terrans don't just reactor hellion every single game? you make it sound so perfect and imbalanced? in reality, pro zergs are doing fine against reactor hellion expand. this is supposed to be balanced for competitive play right? if this is for the noobs, then those zerg players could just make lings and easily trap the hellions.
what are you talking about? the patch was specifically made to address zergs early game at the "pro/high level". obviously a noob wont have that good of hellion control since most ppl suicide there hellions in a zerg base like idiots.
also i never said it was OP, but most ppl in this thread are acting as iff 5 range on a queen is OP.
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I'm fine with the Zerg buffs. I think Zerg was too vulnerable to early pressure. The observer buff still boggles my mind though. What I'm thinking is they realized TvP is in shambles. They're planning to work on the small tweeks for mid game Protoss, and then fix the larger issues for late game Terran.
As many people are saying though, I feel the queen buff could be removing micro from the game. Essentially getting it more "newb" friendly in the sense of encouraging players to just macro and then have big 1A battles.
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It's gonna be pretty hard to get that secondary probe scout off vs zerg as protoss now I guess. All ins weren't exactly common before, but could be a touch stronger now with information being harder to obtain.
Observer buff seems unnecessary but I won't complain, at least it's not a game breaker either way
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On May 10 2012 16:53 hli wrote:
Buff to range 4 would be reasonable. Think muta vs phoenix without range upgrade... phoenix outrange it... but mutas still absolutely destroy them due to micro. 4 Range would allow queens to micro vs reapers and helions, not just chase them all day long... 5 range means that the 4 queen no gas build will be THE build to use in TvZ, absolutely no reason to go any other build. Basically, Blizzard telling Terrans to suck it up and accept the fact that they're going to start every game down a base and down production and with no way to apply pressure. Great theory.
Also, can't believe Protoss is getting a buff (minute as it is) and not Terrans, given the absolutely unbelievable state of TvP right now.
You're overreacting as if queens are faster than hellions and do a lot of damage. Honestly, people will probably just stick with three and get a faster third, which Zergs sometimes have trouble with versus Terran.
If they buffed Terran in this patch, it would nullify some of the other stuff.
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i think ideally zerg should be able to defend anything with queen-only up to the 15-min mark when the t2/t3 3-base pump can begin
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Excellent work by Blizz just in time for summer. I'll have no incentive to play if these patches keep getting more nonsensical. More time spent at the pub watching cricket this summer after work and less playing .
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no more terran nerfs!
after ruining the reaper entirely, and other units for specific matchups they decided that its just better to buff Z and P, i wonder what they will do when those races are foolproof for early and lategame (damn close already now) maybe make a bluepost how a 2min timingwindow in the midgame is enough for terrans.....
thank god that bunker joke was added on TL, if it was part of the bluepost i would have to travel far to deliver a punch well deserved, i would like to visit california anyways xD
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i have a bad feeling about the queen range, i guess we will see in the next few weeks.
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EPT
