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unless its a repeated offense, the punishment should be just severe enough that it deters other people from doing it. For the most part, internet is a quite lenient place. but certianly not for the public figures. For the three cases the op listed, i think the punishments are more or less justified. Naniwa's probe rush is unprecedented, and that cost him a code S spot, but it didn't end as carrer as a progamer. Orb just didn't handle the situation very well, and made it much worse than it had to be. Desitny has always been controversial, so its not really that shocking that he left the team. his type of behavior is always not welcome for most teams or sponsors.
tbh, i don't think its that bad, just examine how idra manage to stay with EG despite all the BMs? first of all, he's of course good enough that the team value him as an asset. second, his action is probably not offensive enough that people can use it against him. like his no gg might be rude to many, but sponsers can probably live with it.
anyway, i mention idra's example because i believe you do have freedom to express yourself without jeopardize your pro-gaming career. you just need to know how to do it. learn to play smart , not play hard.
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On May 07 2012 21:57 DoubleReed wrote:
Gosh I'm really getting tired of people calling orb or destiny racist. It's as if people have never been on the Internet and never even heard of trolling or shock value. Honestly, you hear orb or destiny talking about it and it's an obvious ploy to be as offensive as possible, nothing more. I'm not saying it's acceptable, but calling them racist is practically libel.
Sorry, but can you please tell me where in this thread people called orb or destiny racist?
I thought the majority (of the complainers) are agreeing on that they do not believe orb or destiny believing in the stuff they spouted in a fit of anger, but that racial slurs still do not belong there.
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Why is it so fucking difficult to stop being racist? Why is that such a big deal?
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As if something like that could be KILLING ESPORTS.
Seriously, it is up to the TEAM to take action against stuff like that themselves. Quantic should not have signed Destiny but they wanted him for his "fame". Money over moral. Great, Quantic, great.
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At the end of the day, eSports needs to be an inclusive, welcoming environment. If the pro players and casters are using racial epithets constantly, among other slang meant to offend people, then we fail in that mission. It's not difficult to be entertaining, bm, and not cross that line.
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I think it's important for those of us who see how ridiculous the witch hunt threads are to repeatedly post in them making fun of the witch hunt. It really helps when the majority of comments in a thread are basically just ridiculing the people who are getting worked up about it. That also gives newcomers to the site the impression that it's just a few bad apples getting their panties bunched while the majority of the community is laughing at them.
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On May 07 2012 20:11 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 20:05 Blezza wrote:
Brilliant post, I totally agree with everything that you've said. THIS ISN'T LADDER, this isn't anonymous, we, as a community are getting people to lose their jobs and ruin their lives when it isn't needed.
We wouldn't do this to someone IRL, the Internet is no different.
The Witchhunt has to stop
If it stops public figures in the community saying/doing this shit in the future, I have no problem with it.
You are going to eventually force an extreme response out of the pros. You are going to alienate them by putting them on this straight edge pedestal and there will be no turning back.
Mics on streams will go silent and you will only get music at best(it's only a matter of time before someone finds a pros music offensive), forums will go private-- no longer will you be able to see the pros post and talk to each other/with you on the forums, they will stop interacting with their viewers, fan games will cease, and it will eventually get to the point where they are now "Hollywood Celebrity" status and the only actual interaction you will get is during a Q&A session at a tournament.
Is that what you really want?
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On May 07 2012 22:41 Animzor wrote:
Why is it so fucking difficult to stop being racist? Why is that such a big deal?
I hope this is sarcasm but I can never tell on the internet. Really though, this is how simple solving the problem is. End racism and rid all subjectively offensive language from the world.
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Here we go killing esports again... Yup to actually grow esports we need our communities public figures to call people niggers and gooks on stream and our pro players to throw games they dont feel like playing. Yep thats what we need to grow this thing and all the fans need to just sit down and shut up. Sounds legit.
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Its not as much as a witch hunt as it is reinforcing a necessity for professionalism. Esports is growing rapidly and at this will rate will be addressing the general population's stigma of 'gaming' (i use quotes because thats the general population's outlook on the current legitimacy of professional videogames) in the upcoming future. As a result, the community needs as a whole to be showing the legitimacy and professionalism of the scene as a whole.
In my opinion, the most offensive of your 3 'witch hunts' was Naniwa's probe rush. Outbursts of anger and emotion are fairly common, yet most result in a (deserving) fine and possible suspension as is the coaches prerogative. While i think Razer etc pulling sponsorship can be viewed as excessive, when Esports is in this developing phase and looking to push into large scale, the best front must be put forward. As a result, harsher punishments are dolled out, and justifiably so.
Getting back to Naniwa's probe rush, this was the most offensive of the three by far. Even though the game would not affect the outcome of the tournament, throwing games reflects poorly on yourself as a player, and the organization as whole, much more so than an emotional outburst, which clearly comes from the person alone. Baseball, football and tennis have all had huge scandals involving players who have thrown matches even though they were not in the running for a title or playoff spot etc. It represents a lack of professionalism, which is ultimately the issue here.
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This is just ESPORTS Darwinism and i'm fine with it. It's if it keeps happening and people don't learn from history that i feel we have a problem.
It's ok to expect higher standards of conduct and to call people out for failing to meet those standards. If you're a so-called pro player (or pro streamer or caster or whatever) then you are solely responsibile for covering your own arse. Failure to do so given recent history would be mind boggling. Don't let yourself be dragged in front of an internet jury. You will not win (i can see some people winning, but most of you won't).
I wish people would take this stuff more seriously. If they did we wouldn't be talking about this in the first place.
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On May 07 2012 22:08 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 21:57 DoubleReed wrote:
Gosh I'm really getting tired of people calling orb or destiny racist. It's as if people have never been on the Internet and never even heard of trolling or shock value. Honestly, you hear orb or destiny talking about it and it's an obvious ploy to be as offensive as possible, nothing more. I'm not saying it's acceptable, but calling them racist is practically libel. Yeah libel. "But judge, it's not libel, I was just trolling on the internet!". I wonder how well that defence would stand up in court. Using racist language may not make you racist, but it doesn't give you much of a leg to stand on when accused. It's pretty hard to tell the difference between an actual racist and one that just uses the language over the internet. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck....
Excuse me? Are you seriously using the duck quote? So unless you're saying that trolling and using offensive language on the internet is extremely uncommon and rare you are just a fool with a keyboard. Do you even understand that quote at all?
They haven't even said anything that could be construed as racist. Their behavior is precisely that of a troll and not a racist. Hell, destiny even says it's only racism in context. You may not agree, but don't call him racist when that simply isn't true. You're a liar and don't even care. Absolutely abhorrent behavior.
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In a bad case scenario, the following will happen. A few more scandals occur and more people start getting fired, leading to a huge change in how players and casters interact with the community. Gone will be the days of random people being able to communicate with pros, esports will degenerate to how real sportsman talk. Fluffy statements will be given out, just because the community is too immature and self righteous to not be idiots.
This results in us losing 'personalities' and we will just have players. You know that guy called STCurious? He's probably better than every foreign Zerg, but we can't relate to him or know what his thoughts are. If the community keeps going to sponsors and getting people fired, community shows and streams will just be the fluff we all hate.
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On May 07 2012 22:41 Animzor wrote:
Why is it so fucking difficult to stop being racist? Why is that such a big deal?
Yeah, you can theory craft this subject as much as you like but it's the person themselves that start all the shitstorms. There are better causes to campaign for than an individuals right to be a abusive jerk.
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[B]On May 07 2012 19:51 Rasera wrote:
This is what particularly irks me about this situation. If Destiny had shouldered the burden and walked away, I commend him on his act to save Quantic's reputation. If he was released, it was Quantic attempting damage control. Either way, the reputation of Quantic is salvaged. However, because of the witch hunt, the reputation of Quantic and its players came into question. The involvement of the sponsor turned the witch hunt against Destiny into the entirety of Quantic Gaming. Each and every player would have been affected if Razer had pulled sponsorship for this relatively small occurrence. And this is part of the hidden cost behind witch hunts.
This is an argument I've seen a lot after this situation, and honestly calling it a 'hidden cost' seems very condescending towards those who complained, as if they were all obivious to the potential consequences. When Quantic signed Destiny he already had a history of controversial language and using slurs on the ladder/in streams. They still made the decision to sign him, and while I was not personally involved with any of the drama surrounding this, I still approve of those who complained to his sponsors. If the situation was more like Orb's, where there was no wide-spread knowledge of such attitude or use of slurs prior to things blowing up (though not unknown either), I could have given Quantic some leeway in believing they had no knowledge of the direction Destiny had taken his language before (and ended up taking it again), but there has been controversies involving him before and his language and unapologetic stance on it was well known at the time. As such, I see what happened as nothing more than the result of a calculated risk taken by Quantic that things would not blow up in their faces, and regardless have no sympathy for a team that would sign Destiny after his previous controversies. Indeed, I would rather sacrifice anyone like him who would use slurs and that sort of derogatory language, as well as any team willing to harbor such players after it coming to light, than keep them in the community - even if it hurts the growth of e-sports. Clearly Quantic only cared about his language as far as it hurt their image, so I'd imagine most people who mailed Razer either didn't trust them to respond properly to the situation, or felt they deserved the trouble for signing him in the first place.
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On May 07 2012 22:44 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 20:11 Scarecrow wrote:On May 07 2012 20:05 Blezza wrote:
Brilliant post, I totally agree with everything that you've said. THIS ISN'T LADDER, this isn't anonymous, we, as a community are getting people to lose their jobs and ruin their lives when it isn't needed.
We wouldn't do this to someone IRL, the Internet is no different.
The Witchhunt has to stop
If it stops public figures in the community saying/doing this shit in the future, I have no problem with it. You are going to eventually force an extreme response out of the pros. You are going to alienate them by putting them on this straight edge pedestal and there will be no turning back. Mics on streams will go silent and you will only get music at best(it's only a matter of time before someone finds a pros music offensive), forums will go private-- no longer will you be able to see the pros post and talk to each other/with you on the forums, they will stop interacting with their viewers, fan games will cease, and it will eventually get to the point where they are now "Hollywood Celebrity" status and the only actual interaction you will get is during a Q&A session at a tournament. Is that what you really want?
This completely out of touch with reality. There is a HUGE difference between acting unprofessionally and everything you said. Asking a modicum of professionalism (most supply this and more easily) is not 'putting them on a straight edge pedestal' at all, it is requiring the pro's to be as accountable for their actions as any public figure.
The 'witch hunt' going on is being blown out of proportion and exaggerated by comments such as these.
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On May 07 2012 22:44 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 20:11 Scarecrow wrote:On May 07 2012 20:05 Blezza wrote:
Brilliant post, I totally agree with everything that you've said. THIS ISN'T LADDER, this isn't anonymous, we, as a community are getting people to lose their jobs and ruin their lives when it isn't needed.
We wouldn't do this to someone IRL, the Internet is no different.
The Witchhunt has to stop
If it stops public figures in the community saying/doing this shit in the future, I have no problem with it. You are going to eventually force an extreme response out of the pros. You are going to alienate them by putting them on this straight edge pedestal and there will be no turning back. Mics on streams will go silent and you will only get music at best(it's only a matter of time before someone finds a pros music offensive), forums will go private-- no longer will you be able to see the pros post and talk to each other/with you on the forums, they will stop interacting with their viewers, fan games will cease, and it will eventually get to the point where they are now "Hollywood Celebrity" status and the only actual interaction you will get is during a Q&A session at a tournament. Is that what you really want?
I don't buy the slippery slope argument. There is a difference between having a reasonable expectation of decency from someone while doing their job and expecting them to be robots.
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On May 07 2012 22:44 Detwiler wrote:
Here we go killing esports again... Yup to actually grow esports we need our communities public figures to call people niggers and gooks on stream and our pro players to throw games they dont feel like playing. Yep thats what we need to grow this thing and all the fans need to just sit down and shut up. Sounds legit.
Well to be completely honest, starting a witch hunt and getting a person banned and fired is no better, both create a rift within the community. People just need thicker skin, the scene has nearly fully branded itself as a bunch of cry-babies by now, and little to nothing else other than that. Unfortunately this is the internet, so everyone has ample opportunity to voice their opinion, no matter how stupid and the veil of annonimity makes everyone argue their point until the think they others will actually listen.
Of the two options, I honestly think it would be better to sit down and shut up, just let shit like this roll off your shoulders, most of these witch hunts have been started over words anyways.... I'm sure you guys have heard the "stick and stones" saying before...
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On May 07 2012 22:41 Animzor wrote:
Why is it so fucking difficult to stop being racist? Why is that such a big deal?
In the end they are just words.
I have a little book for you, it's called the Four Agreements. A vast majority of TLers and Redditers would benefit from this little 200 pager.
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I think that the big issue arises when sponsors are involved. In the western world, e-sports isn't as big, but it is starting to grow and get more companies interested and sponsoring, etc etc.
I think that bringing up an issue with the team (EG, Quantic, etc) is acceptable, because the players represent them, and they as a team represent their sponsors, so it's part of the team's job to keep an eye on the players in terms of their image, and it's up to the team to deal out any punishments.
If people have a problem with someone throwing a game, or making racial comments, or whatever, then they should direct their issue to the team, it's their responsibility. Directing it to the sponsors just give them, and other potential sponsors watching the scene a red light about entering, what to many of them is a new world and therefore a risk.
TL;DR: "witch-hunting" should be directed to the team management, not the sponsors
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EPT
