EPTHowever, in applying it to another situation, you have to make sure there are no applicable witches.
We have witches.
[Rant]/[D] Witch Hunting and 'eSports' - Page 4
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h41fgod
Sweden377 Posts
However, in applying it to another situation, you have to make sure there are no applicable witches. We have witches. | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On May 07 2012 21:49 h41fgod wrote: The problem with this metaphor of the witch hunt is that, in real life there are no witches. Duh. However, in applying it to another situation, you have to make sure there are no applicable witches. We have witches. The point is that the community is hunting down players that are publicised on forums just because of one incident. One incident of bad manner in an online game. Then, you have something like the Destiny situation. | ||
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
The fact is, that mods on Reddit go out of their way to protect the community, and stop internet lynchmobs quickly. That did not happen with Orb and Destiny- in fact quite the opposite. As an industry and community leader, Team Liquid needs to re-evaluate how they want their moderators acting to protect people from these lynch mobs. | ||
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Spartan123
United Kingdom5 Posts
I feel people are holding gamers in a way too much higher light as if they were politicians These guys are people like us, and who can honestly say that in a fit of rage they have not cursed someone with inappropriate language These people are just trying to make their way. "witch hunter" are just trying to boycott player's careers and provide no help to the community whatsoever. I do not agree with racism, but then again, words are words and people are discriminated against all the time ( I AM NOT JUSTIFYING RACISM HERE), you think ruining a gamers sponsor is going to change anything? Fix racism on the street and in the work place or anywhere else before you come with pitch forks and strongly worded letters to "e-sport websites" Why are sponsors dropping players ? It not going to damage their reputation, I guarantee that nobody is going to stop buying a razer mouse or support quantic because of what destiny said. If you are truly offended and some people might be, that is completely within their right to be. For example You are from the region that has been offended, maybe words with destiny might be better. I am sure he not a racist and said it in a fit of rage, Anyone offended by the term could be like, listen "we were fans but you took it too far and hopefully you can correct your behaviour for next time and try to work back the trust of the fan population that you just lost." Rather than post up a vile thread about him and demand blood, he like all people, deserves a second chance. I personally do not always want a PG 13 Stream, destiny has been known for explicit language, and that why we all love him and he speaks his mind and that the reason he has loads of views. So Racism is BAD !, But there are better ways to deal with racism that does not result in a player witchhunt. People should just grow up. My opinion is one in many, and everyone has right to think what he/she believes. So GLHF & GG. | ||
DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
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thezanursic
5489 Posts
On May 07 2012 19:51 Rasera wrote: Stagnation of eSports While only a few notorious ones are listed in the witch hunt category, there are considerably more, involving numerous celebrities within the SC2 community (the Artosis shirt was another laughable one). This causes a great harm to the growth of esports and the overall appearance of the community to those outside of the community. For the community to grow, and for eSports to flourish into what we dream eSports to become, the community must be harmonious, for the most part. We must do our part to keep the community in check, so that the community does not offend, but we most do so in a productive manner. In Destiny's case (and I believe Orb's as well), e-mailing sponsors is not productive, it threatens their teams as a whole, both currently and for potential future sponsors. Imagine you are a new potential sponsor, and you look into our community. Which scenario are you more interested in? A community that works together, thrives harmoniously, and let those responsible for setting down punishment set people straight when needed? Or a community that burns the school down because lunch was 5 minutes late? If witch hunts continue as they are now, we are that community that burns the school down. Something has to change, and eSports will pay for it until we do. Ohh please, drama keeps communities running. As long as big leagues and leadership don't do this we are fine. | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
Sometimes this whole " esports " thing is just ridiculous. | ||
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Telcontar
United Kingdom16710 Posts
I will admit that more than a few went overboard with their criticisms, but if you make a big mistake, you should pay for it, if only to learn from it. | ||
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BoxingKangaroo
Japan955 Posts
On May 07 2012 21:47 Stiluz wrote: You, sir, put my general thoughts eloquently down on paper. Thank you. People can afford to be themselves. Ridding the community of the bad seeds won't make everyone start acting fake. The truth is, most people can act naturally and not be racist. To most people this comes naturally. Even colourful characters can know what lines not to cross. | ||
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Mioraka
Canada1353 Posts
Read those two phrase, think about it for a minute, and tell me if they are the same thing. If fact, they are completely different. They have no relation at all. In fact, "writing to sponsors" can accomplish something you are completely against just as easily. It is a dangerous concept, as dangerous as publishing someone's address on twitter. And i strongly believe the people who suggest this method publicly should be discourage on TL or Reddit, with warning or bans. | ||
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Deimos0
Poland277 Posts
It's not a witch hunt if someone is called out for their wrongdoing. As for destiny's case, yes, some seem to be overreacting a tad bit, but it's not a witch hunt. If you are a professional (and a public one at that), there are certain responsibilities that automatically comes with it. Not using racial slurs, regardless of context or occassion, is one of them. Another one would be respecting your followers, peers, and employers. Naniwa got so much flak because he shat on all 3 with his petulance. I will admit that more than a few went overboard with their criticisms, but if you make a big mistake, you should pay for it, if only to learn from it. I agree with above statement. Another thing is - how community is blamed for this 'hunt', when people mentioned in controversial threads clearly are to blame because of their actions? Seriously? | ||
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BoxingKangaroo
Japan955 Posts
On May 07 2012 21:57 DoubleReed wrote: Gosh I'm really getting tired of people calling orb or destiny racist. It's as if people have never been on the Internet and never even heard of trolling or shock value. Honestly, you hear orb or destiny talking about it and it's an obvious ploy to be as offensive as possible, nothing more. I'm not saying it's acceptable, but calling them racist is practically libel. Yeah libel. "But judge, it's not libel, I was just trolling on the internet!". I wonder how well that defence would stand up in court. Using racist language may not make you racist, but it doesn't give you much of a leg to stand on when accused. It's pretty hard to tell the difference between an actual racist and one that just uses the language over the internet. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.... | ||
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Irre
United States646 Posts
Seriously though, what you are trying to advocate for the sake of "Growing esports" is to sweep under the rug a very dark/shady side of online gaming..and its not going to work. If our game doesnt do it, there are plenty of others that do, and the sponsors are already full aware of it, or they will continue to be reminded that its there. People need to face consequences for their actions, and teams need to face them as well if we really want to move things forward. Maybe when things are unnacceptable to even the average internet troll, things will be a lot less tolerated, but when "progamers" and people that are spokespersons (casters) for the community and the professional esports scene are using that offensive material, we are not ready and we need to fix it... Destiny has been known to behave in this manner and is barely a professional level player...Quantic should have known better than to sign him, and if they did should have made it more clear the behavior they expect from him..Quantic has a bad track record too, they signed naniwa shortly after the probe rush incident if I remember correctly, so they obviously need to adopt better standards and guidelines for their players on what they expect from a progamers behavior. I didn't write Razer or Quantic, but I don't think anyone has to police people that feel the need to do so. Should people be encouraging others to be deeply offended simply because they are? No ofc not I felt the Orb situation was more tricky, because most of his "errors" were well before he got the job with EG, and they were in his past. That is where the witchhunt theory holds a little water. Still, plenty of people wrote sponsors in that situation, and none pulled away from EG. I would just say that "esports" is clearly not as ready for mainstream as we think it is, and until we have some unifying bodies and codes of conduct across teams/leagues etc., and we start cleaning up our reputation and "gamer culture" to some extent, things will stagnate. Blaming people who write to teams and sponsors is silly, and things need to run its course, and bad personalities will be purged, especially if they aren't high level progamers that esports does not need. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
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Mioraka
Canada1353 Posts
On May 07 2012 22:04 Deimos0 wrote: + Show Spoiler + It's not a witch hunt if someone is called out for their wrongdoing. As for destiny's case, yes, some seem to be overreacting a tad bit, but it's not a witch hunt. If you are a professional (and a public one at that), there are certain responsibilities that automatically comes with it. Not using racial slurs, regardless of context or occassion, is one of them. Another one would be respecting your followers, peers, and employers. Naniwa got so much flak because he shat on all 3 with his petulance. I will admit that more than a few went overboard with their criticisms, but if you make a big mistake, you should pay for it, if only to learn from it. I agree with above statement. Another thing is - how community is blamed for this 'hunt', when people mentioned in controversial threads clearly are to blame because of their actions? Seriously? As the word suggested, it is called a "hunt" not due to what is the target but due to how it was done. The community also went onto a witch hunt when Coach Lee said EG poached his players. And the community went wild with excitement crusifing Alex Garfield and his team( so did i, actually). Luckily, this "writing to sponsor" bullshit wasn't popular back then. Later events revealed that Coach Lee is a complete liar who runs around telling exaggerated stories. Imagine if the community learnt this method back then and started writing letters to all the sponsors of EG. Imagine the damage it will do to this team. Do they deserve it? No shit they don't, but once the mobs start moving you can stop them, nor can you reason with them. I bet they would still say they are acting to help esports by getting rid of shady business practices. The fact of the matter is, mobs will go to extremes to get hints done, and inciting hatred or spreading misinformation is not hard. The community has acted and it will act again on misinformation. Lastly, STOP linking this mob justice Issue to the racism issue. They are not the same thing, this is not a destiny being racist thread, here are already 2 others with hundreds of pages in them. If the mods allow this to stay open it will be about something that is not discussed to death. | ||
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Twistacles
Canada1327 Posts
Orb nor Destiny should never have been fired. They didn't do anything the whole community doesn't do every day. Naniwa should never have gotten shit for doing what he did. People in this community don't understand that conventional professionalism doesn't really apply to an esports setting, as it is new medium and a new culture entirely. I feel like people go after these people because they are jealous and want to bring them down with them. It's really sad. | ||
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Shafanhow
United States47 Posts
On May 07 2012 20:41 Oshuy wrote: The problem is not racism, the problem is streamers have a "public life" that takes hours each day through streaming and tweeting, live, without preparation, often without formation and with an audience that has a high online visibility/high reactivity. Keeping in mind you are being watched and policing your speach is taxing. Politicians, that are bred to avoid public mishaps, still slip up and get flamed at times, and that is with counselling, preparation and an amount of unprepared speach limited to a minimum. I guess recent witch hunts will stress the need for self-control, but don't believe avoiding mistakes is humanly possible. The main issue is the way a single phrase out of a hundred hours cast may be singled out to start a flame war. This is a behaviour change needed on our side, but trying to tell a child not tu use his new-found flamethrower will be tough. Using the N word is not just a "slip up". If Orb or Destiny had raged with terms like asshole or scumbag or douche none of this would have happened. You can't use that word, it's toxic. | ||
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Tyree
1508 Posts
So this is the part up for discussion now. These mistakes happen; people make mistakes and people will be offended in the future. This is more or less undeniable, it's human nature to strife. So the questions then: Where do we go from here? Do we stop witch hunts in their tracks? Do we set appropriate guidelines? Would improving methods of reporting these mistakes help? Are they required? Or Where do we draw the line? When do we consider it more acceptable than other times? Who is considered exempt, and when? The line was drawn decades ago, when most people in the west stop using racial slurs to offend minorities. The issue here is not that people are sending mails to sponsors, the issue is that the online gaming community has a bad stigma attached to it for a very good reason: we, as in as a whole, often live up to that stigma. You put more emphasis on sponsors and cold hard $$$ than you do on actual ethics, we live in 2012, we have young, 20 somethings, males (often Caucasian) arguing for Destiny and Orb's case, that it makes the game more "fun" to use racial slurs, that is more disturbing than any horror movie the last 10 years. These arent witch hunts, these are chickens finally coming home to roost. Too long has the gaming community accepted this utter trash to pollute our community and give us all a bad name. It is the only place in 2012 where homophobia and racism is not just accepted its damn expected and its also considered by some to be entertainment. Whether people write to sponsors is a far lesser issue, the SC community is considered one of the better communities (in gaming) which really says alot about CoD, Halo, SRK and other communities. You view it as a witch hunt, but that implies that someone is innocent. None of the women hanged and killed in old times were actual witches, it was just mass hysteria for nothing. Thus you are implying these people are completly innocent, which they arent since the proof is everywhere. If anything Starcraft fans said "enough is enough" and actually started doing something that will hopefully stop people from doing this in the future. Most other communities would just let all this stuff slide, until you have a fiasco like the fighting game community had with that whole misogyny issue just a month ago. You call these witch hunts a bad thing, yet they are the very thing that keeps people in every other entertainment field from acting like a complete douche. Remember Michael Richards? He had to apologize to the whole nation, his entire career was ruined and he was forever branded a racist. That whole ordeal was blown way out of proportion to teach others a lesson. Why should gaming personalities be above that? | ||
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WigglingSquid
5194 Posts
Witch-hunting will happen when public figures manage themselves poorly. This is not an esports problem. It should be noted that this implies that someone is being persecuted unjustly. As for the mentioned cases, why should I feel sorry? As much as a few elements seem to think so, not everyone rages and even fewer individuals mindlessly employ racial/sexual slur when it happens. On stream, furthermore? A progamer's equivalent of "on the clock"? Do you honestly think that openly insulting someone like that while you are working is not going to get you fired pretty much anywhere? Orb then tried to deny what happened. I fail to see why EG should have kept an employee that acted so childishly. Yep, he might still be a decent caster but that doesn't mean that you want someone like him on your payroll. Naniwa? Forfeits happen, but how often do you see a professional individual athlete starting an undesirable match and then sitting still and let his opponent win without doing absolutely anything? Such a behaviour is clearly unprofessional, because in any spectatorship-based enterprise offering the product to watch is your primary concern. (If your popularity allows you to be remunerated anyway, well, that's another matter.) GSL postponed his Code S seeds for a season, a fair and not excessive disciplinary action I would say. He's already lucky that nobody cares when he acts like a troublesome teen on twitter or in the TL forums. As for Destiny, I never followed the player and didn't even know of the scandal, so I will keep quiet about it. | ||
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
On May 07 2012 22:00 Telcontar wrote: It's not a witch hunt if someone is called out for their wrongdoing. As for destiny's case, yes, some seem to be overreacting a tad bit, but it's not a witch hunt. If you are a professional (and a public one at that), there are certain responsibilities that automatically comes with it. Not using racial slurs, regardless of context or occassion, is one of them. Another one would be respecting your followers, peers, and employers. Naniwa got so much flak because he shat on all 3 with his petulance. I will admit that more than a few went overboard with their criticisms, but if you make a big mistake, you should pay for it, if only to learn from it. If it's done by a few white knight kiddies in the community, then dozens bandwagon with them (often just for the lulz and drama involved), then yes it absolutely is witch hunting. If the sponsors themselves had taken issue with the way the players were acting, then it isn't a witch hunt. The fact is, once you rally a large number of people against any one person, it's a witch hunt. The TLers involved in spam messaging Quantic's sponsors disgust me- their accounts should be at least temp banned, until they learn to handle matters appropriately. | ||
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