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On May 07 2012 20:13 MavivaM wrote:
OP can I ask a little off-topic question?
Am I really the only one on the internet who doesn't insult people when playing games, being them LoL, Diablo or whatever?
I do my best not too, because it can ruin the experience for the players. However, I know myself that I will run a probe around dropping pylons because I got BM'd. Or get riled up by someone who thinks he's all that.
It's funny to me as well, as I'm rarely infuriated by anything said directly to my face, but a weak link on a team can set me off. It's another of those curious things to me.
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On May 07 2012 19:51 Rasera wrote:
Imagine you are a new potential sponsor, and you look into our community. Which scenario are you more interested in? A community that works together, thrives harmoniously, and let those responsible for setting down punishment set people straight when needed? Or a community that burns the school down because lunch was 5 minutes late?
The one that makes money. The one that wins.
The lynch mob that was after Naniwa is completely gone. I don't think Naniwa/Quantic lost any sponsors, as far as I'm aware, and as long as his results kept up, he was put right back into GSL the next season, and the whole probe rush incident has been forgotten.
Orb didn't put up any tournament results, and his casting career hadn't taken off yet. He wasn't really extremely well-known yet for anything but being kind of a dick to everyone (Note: I say this from personal experience on ladder, not just from what I've read in a thread somewhere.) The lynch mob came out and got him removed from EG. Where's the lynch mob for IdrA for calling people faggots and whining about the game being an imbalanced mess at every single opportunity? There wasn't one, because he was the foreign hope vs the Koreans. (Notice that since his results have fallen off, the worst we get from him is the lack of a gg -- he knows how the system works.)
You missed another big lynch mob that got a caster fired (suspended? I haven't kept up on his situation b/c I never liked his casting style personally) for insinuating that a player -- who was known for cheating -- might be cheating. He wasn't that popular or anything, easy to get rid of for Playhem.
You ask where do we draw the line? I don't think the community DOES draw a line. But sponsors will continue supporting the winners, because they make the money. For any of the big time winners or casters out there, they would have to be caught sacrificing a Jewish horse on a pentagram while wearing a KKK robe and dancing over the desecrated corpse of a homosexual Korean before sponsors would think about dropping a cash cow.
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On the topic of whether we as a community should stop the witch hunts, I agree they're ridiculous, and need to stop. In an ideal world, someone wouldn't be fired from their job for a single mistake, if it wasn't an egregious one. Getting angry and raging in a single ladder game usually isn't cause for alarm, as almost all of your favorites have done the same. Many people in general didn't like Orb, saw a chance to get him fired, and took it. They did the same thing with Destiny. These are people who never even watched the content these two put out, but decided based off a couple of screenshots that these people should be fired. And their teams, rightfully scared because they were being questioned by their sponsors that keep them afloat, had no choice but to release them.
The problem we have is now the lynch mob is drunk on power. I hate to think about the next semi-irrelevant personality who gets angry and gets caught doing it.
Edit: I'm not a fan of either orb or Destiny. I've been bm'd by orb and watched his casting once and didn't care for it, and I didn't like Destiny's style of streaming so I didn't watch it. I just don't think that the incidents the lynch mobs went nuts over are worth someone losing their job, especially in a field we're still trying to nurture and grow.
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On May 07 2012 20:05 Blezza wrote:
Brilliant post, I totally agree with everything that you've said. THIS ISN'T LADDER, this isn't anonymous, we, as a community are getting people to lose their jobs and ruin their lives when it isn't needed.
We wouldn't do this to someone IRL, the Internet is no different.
The Witchhunt has to stop
No one is causing anyone to lose their jobs. If people didn't do questionable things, they wouldn't be losing their jobs
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Nothing more annoying than the amount of spin to defend bad behavior and accusing the community of witch hunting haha. Hurting Esports? quite the opposite...how hard is it to expect a professional to follow a very simple set of standards of being professional? When you join a team or organization you honestly can`t expect to act like a 13 year old throwing tantrums is an okay thing to do. You represent the sponsors. Don`t bite the hand that feeds you man.
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On May 07 2012 20:17 zomgE wrote:
i agree on most of these are overreacting but i don't know any place where racism is acceptable.
racism isn't the issue here. The words that were used are the problem, either Destiny or Orb are not racists (or I would like to think this way)
The biggest issue here is that rather than having a debate and let the community to come up to a conclusion on what should be done (e.g. if found to be unacceptable, people can sign up one huge email to the team to complain.), some just bypass everything and email the sponsor.
Another issue is how vulnerable the players are, if you watched closely to the Destiny's game, he was cheesed heavily and got a forward BM gg.
Given his personality and choice of words, it is not surprising to see him using these words to rage. Not to mention how long he streams for and how often he would get cheesed.
In theory, whoever is in master or GM, just need cheese a streamer, repeat and eventually when any of these terms arises, he just need to take a screen cap and post a thread about it.
Destiny shouldn't be punished by the sponsors pressure, he should be punished by the team that receives pressure from the community.
People should treat it like how Orb situation was like, put pressure onto the team, found out orb was lying and the team decided to fire him.
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? esports or not, it's about not being a racist bigot in public. Even if they aren't legitimately racist they used racist slurs in a manner to be as offensive as possible, and really, how can you say you're not trying to come off as racist when you do that. Let me know when you can say shit like that in any job and be let off the hook. If you're working for customers, one offense is enough to get you fired. In this case, it involved people watching the stream and watching their events. In fact, both orb and destiny should have had their bnet accounts perma banned for their behavior and no one would have said a word, but once someone else puts it into their hands for them to be punished people start whining.
The internet making everyone retarded and thinking there's no consequence to their behavior is basically the excuse that people try to come up with and it's laughable.
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Its all business, think about it. Does Razer really want to be apart of a team who drops a A-Z bome when ever they want? they have their own right to start up an investigation they are sponcering Quanitic gameing.
Same with orb and Naniwa's blunders. Orb dropped the N word and EG does not want to represnet that
(granted their was a lil witch hunt for Orb),
and Naniwa's probe rush. Think about it to the Masses Naniwa vs NesTea is just an EPIC match that i think alot of people would love to watch and when he probe rushes it makes GoMTtv looks bad.
Idk if you guys remember about that porn site that is/was tryring to sponcer Esports. Personaly i think its funny and cool but to the masses porn is a tabo and just should not be with Eports or it will never trully grow.
Its all about to how you want people to perceive you and your business.
From now on when ever one hears about stuff like this i challenge them to look at it from a business perspective.
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Nothing's gonna change because this community is primarily based on the internet, where everything is anonymous or pseudonymous. And when people aren't publicly accountable for their actions, they turn into absolute dickwads. Especially to people who ARE publicly accountable for their actions.
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Professional players should stop using derogatory language preemptively. That will stop the witch hunts. The problem right now is that teams are tolerating this behavior in the first place and giving people a reason to bring it to public light.
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On May 07 2012 20:24 mango_destroyer wrote:
Nothing more annoying than the amount of spin to defend bad behavior and accusing the community of witch hunting haha. Hurting Esports? quite the opposite...how hard is it to expect a professional to follow a very simple set of standards of being professional? When you join a team or organization you honestly can`t expect to act like a 13 year old throwing tantrums is an okay thing to do. You represent the sponsors. Don`t bite the hand that feeds you man.
Just after reading the initial few responses, I get a feeling that we really lack a middle ground. You are absolutely right, and to all others who stated it, I agree, there should not be tolerance of racism, and I hope I made that clear enough in the OP.
But at the same time, how severe does the punishment have to be? In some ways, it feels too steep to me personally. Repeat offenders? okay, sorry, but no sympathy. But a slip-up once? I don't know...It's hazy gray area, I suppose.
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On May 07 2012 20:24 mango_destroyer wrote:
Nothing more annoying than the amount of spin to defend bad behavior and accusing the community of witch hunting haha. Hurting Esports? quite the opposite...how hard is it to expect a professional to follow a very simple set of standards of being professional? When you join a team or organization you honestly can`t expect to act like a 13 year old throwing tantrums is an okay thing to do. You represent the sponsors. Don`t bite the hand that feeds you man.
In the case of orb that's entirely correct, something he acknowledged and apologized for.
In the case of Destiny, he was hardly affected personally by the sponsors. The people who emailed sponsors were hurting everyone else in Quantic and not him, since he was primarily funded by his stream. His only actual punishment came, not because of what he said on stream, but from the fact he was an unrepentant ass about it here on TL, where he got unfeatured and lost a lot of views.
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On May 07 2012 20:24 mango_destroyer wrote:
But at the same time, how severe does the punishment have to be? In some ways, it feels too steep to me personally. Repeat offenders? okay, sorry, but no sympathy. But a slip-up once? I don't know...It's hazy gray area, I suppose.
This is were the Esport community should be blamed for ever one is trying to find dirt on someone just so they can discredit them and its turning into a joke after what happend to Orb, people went as far as lookin at his past games to see if you dropped any slanderous words, just boggles my mind sometime ^_^
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In the case of Destiny, he was hardly affected personally by the sponsors. The people who emailed sponsors were hurting everyone else in Quantic and not him, since he was primarily funded by his stream. His only actual punishment came, not because of what he said on stream, but from the fact he was an unrepentant ass about it here on TL, where he got unfeatured and lost a lot of views.[/QUOTE]
idk i think thats just destinies personality and i think he was affected by it he in no longer got a free trip to korea
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Destiny's case was repetition of what happened when Orb was punished. I mean - how hard is to understand that community doesn't tolerate any racial statements? We may lose a good streamer or player, but at least community comes healthy after the fuss. And streamers, casters and players should FINALLY learn how to behave, because sometimes SC2 scene really looks like dominated by a bunch of kids (notably - Naniwa's game vs Nestea and Idra's whining).
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The problem is not racism, the problem is streamers have a "public life" that takes hours each day through streaming and tweeting, live, without preparation, often without formation and with an audience that has a high online visibility/high reactivity.
Keeping in mind you are being watched and policing your speach is taxing. Politicians, that are bred to avoid public mishaps, still slip up and get flamed at times, and that is with counselling, preparation and an amount of unprepared speach limited to a minimum.
I guess recent witch hunts will stress the need for self-control, but don't believe avoiding mistakes is humanly possible. The main issue is the way a single phrase out of a hundred hours cast may be singled out to start a flame war. This is a behaviour change needed on our side, but trying to tell a child not tu use his new-found flamethrower will be tough.
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If I was a community member with some type of celebrity status(caster, player or organizer) i would never post, speak while streaming or let anyone have access to anything i do.
Because all your hard work might be lost because of a word out of context.. Calling nigger to a white person, faggot to a straight person or retarded to a normal person shouldn't get you fired and banned from a community...
If you feel the world is a better place because you got 2 nerds fired then people need to leave their houses and fight racism where they matter.. the real world!
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There should be consequences of saying racial slurs and whatnot. But, people should NOT contact sponsors. One persons actions should not affect the whole team. What I believe 
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It's not like we're waiting for them to slip. It's just that those moments are clearly visible - politicians are flamed from that very reason - on a daily basis they may be doing fine, but when they slip, it's so obvious, it's hurting people's eyes.
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On May 07 2012 20:30 Rasera wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 20:24 mango_destroyer wrote:
Nothing more annoying than the amount of spin to defend bad behavior and accusing the community of witch hunting haha. Hurting Esports? quite the opposite...how hard is it to expect a professional to follow a very simple set of standards of being professional? When you join a team or organization you honestly can`t expect to act like a 13 year old throwing tantrums is an okay thing to do. You represent the sponsors. Don`t bite the hand that feeds you man. Just after reading the initial few responses, I get a feeling that we really lack a middle ground. You are absolutely right, and to all others who stated it, I agree, there should not be tolerance of racism, and I hope I made that clear enough in the OP. But at the same time, how severe does the punishment have to be? In some ways, it feels too steep to me personally. Repeat offenders? okay, sorry, but no sympathy. But a slip-up once? I don't know...It's hazy gray area, I suppose.
I think we should start by acknowledging the fact that everybody can make mistakes and rage. Some people will rage and swear using dumb racists expressions, others will just crash their keyboard. Bottom line is : nobody is perfect and sometime, even the most experienced professional can have an innapropriate reaction.
Now, I would except a mature person to come up and say "Yeah, I raged and I shouldn't have used those words. Sorry guys, I'll try to improve on this front". I don't think anybody would have gotten lynched if they just admitted that they went somewhat out of line (IIRC, Orb first tried to say it wasn't him. Destiny just fed the trolls).
So I agree that public lynching is not good and we should, as a community, give a second chance to everybody. On the other hand, if players and other public figures would react with humility and admit their errors, most of the lynching wouldn't happen.
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Nothing will change because there'll always be a vocal minority that are terrified that you might be offending a person that doesn't exist and are willing to brand you with anything they can to get you to stop. This attitude is concentrated around Starcraft 2 for god knows what reason, and I don't think it's going to go away.
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EPT
