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On May 07 2012 22:53 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 22:41 Animzor wrote:
Why is it so fucking difficult to stop being racist? Why is that such a big deal? In the end they are just words. I have a little book for you, it's called the Four Agreements. A vast majority of TLers and Redditers would benefit from this little 200 pager.
I assume you forgot to add "players" as well.
"Always do your best" > Naniwa
lol
"Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love." > Idra
"Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama." > Destiny
Looks like good advice to me.
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1) Naniwa's probe rush in a 'meaningless game' (Dec 2011) + Show Spoiler +It was in a game in which the outcome of their respective fates had been sealed. The series had already been decided with Nestea, and after a frustrating day of playing, Naniwa unemphatically worker rushed to end the series quickly.
The outcry against this play was proportionally out of hand and this was, in my opinion, the largest witch hunt of 2011. While I understand the Korean tradition of playing honourably and completing what was touted as a fierce rivalry, the consequence of not honouring such a tradition was enormous. In elite sports, such as football or hockey, when the playoffs are decided, and a team is eliminated, the best players rest, to preserve them for when games count. When a team is leading by such a large margin, the players rest for more challenging games. In terms of comparison, I see no difference between this or what Naniwa had done.
Yet, do these stars face fines? or suspensions? or to compare to Naniwa, get removed from their respective leagues? Of course not, it'd be absolutely ridiculous. Why did it happen to Naniwa though? Witch hunting; this was the mob's first real taste of blood, and they don't stop here. While the condemnation was originally amongst the korean players as a sign of disrespect, the community witch hunt only exacerbated the situation into what he actually received as his punishment.
I only read your post, I havn't looked at the replies so if this has been covered I apoligise in advance.
Your defense of Naniwa here is completly skewed.
You say when the game doesn't 'mean' anything in football and hockey that teams rest players and put in 2nd tier options is the same as Naniwa throwing a game?
You are talking about a team game over a season. Here in AUS we have the AFL, when teams know for certain that they cannot make the finals (I guess playoffs) sometimes they will start to 'blood' new recruits and younger players to give them experiance heading into the next season. This exposes their new players to more experiance at the top level and helps the team become stronger for the following year.
What does Naniwa probe rushing help in the long term? or even in the short term? How can you compare a team making strategic moves to strengthen their side for the following season with a 1on1 game where Naniwa had nothing to gain by playing a solid game, but alot to lose by throwing it away?
To put it in fairer terms, thats like a football or hockey team sending out their players who then just sit on the ground for the entire game. What do you think would be the fallout from that?
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Perhaps pros should just stop doing any form of fan service, lest they lose control of themselves and accidentally offend people.
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On May 07 2012 22:49 Micket wrote:
In a bad case scenario, the following will happen. A few more scandals occur and more people start getting fired, leading to a huge change in how players and casters interact with the community. Gone will be the days of random people being able to communicate with pros, esports will degenerate to how real sportsman talk. Fluffy statements will be given out, just because the community is too immature and self righteous to not be idiots.
This results in us losing 'personalities' and we will just have players. You know that guy called STCurious? He's probably better than every foreign Zerg, but we can't relate to him or know what his thoughts are. If the community keeps going to sponsors and getting people fired, community shows and streams will just be the fluff we all hate.
Only the racist assholes stand between us and those inscrutable Asiatics!
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Is there even a point in discussing this to the death?
Those who share my personal opinion on this topic are of course in the right and all the others who think differently are wrong and should change their opinion. oh wait ...
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On May 07 2012 22:41 Animzor wrote:
Why is it so fucking difficult to stop being racist? Why is that such a big deal?
Easily the best post.
In what other community, even on the internet, do you see this? How often does anyone waltz into a movie forum and sees any of this? What about sports? Whens the last time you read topics regarding football, basketball or any other sport that had any of these issues?
Why do we have to educate people, and not just people but YOUNG people of today about things a large number of people in the west learned in the 1960's?
How can so many gamers be for technology, science, overwhelmingly atheist and progressive and yet in this one field, we just flat out fail in every conceivable way?
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On May 07 2012 22:50 Pazuzu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 22:44 Dosey wrote:On May 07 2012 20:11 Scarecrow wrote:On May 07 2012 20:05 Blezza wrote:
Brilliant post, I totally agree with everything that you've said. THIS ISN'T LADDER, this isn't anonymous, we, as a community are getting people to lose their jobs and ruin their lives when it isn't needed.
We wouldn't do this to someone IRL, the Internet is no different.
The Witchhunt has to stop
If it stops public figures in the community saying/doing this shit in the future, I have no problem with it. You are going to eventually force an extreme response out of the pros. You are going to alienate them by putting them on this straight edge pedestal and there will be no turning back. Mics on streams will go silent and you will only get music at best(it's only a matter of time before someone finds a pros music offensive), forums will go private-- no longer will you be able to see the pros post and talk to each other/with you on the forums, they will stop interacting with their viewers, fan games will cease, and it will eventually get to the point where they are now "Hollywood Celebrity" status and the only actual interaction you will get is during a Q&A session at a tournament. Is that what you really want? This completely out of touch with reality. There is a HUGE difference between acting unprofessionally and everything you said. Asking a modicum of professionalism (most supply this and more easily) is not 'putting them on a straight edge pedestal' at all, it is requiring the pro's to be as accountable for their actions as any public figure. The 'witch hunt' going on is being blown out of proportion and exaggerated by comments such as these.
How is it so out of touch with reality? You don't need to look any further than a show called TMZ to see the direction this is headed.
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On May 07 2012 20:20 Deimos0 wrote:
That's the point - racism in any form isn't acceptable, so why should we act like nothing happened?
The point is not to argue racism is acceptable. The point is that going about punishing someone for being racist does not have to involve sponsors, who according to incontrol could pull funding in response to this, thus hurting the rest of quantic more than destiny himself.
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On May 07 2012 23:00 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 22:50 Pazuzu wrote:On May 07 2012 22:44 Dosey wrote:On May 07 2012 20:11 Scarecrow wrote:On May 07 2012 20:05 Blezza wrote:
Brilliant post, I totally agree with everything that you've said. THIS ISN'T LADDER, this isn't anonymous, we, as a community are getting people to lose their jobs and ruin their lives when it isn't needed.
We wouldn't do this to someone IRL, the Internet is no different.
The Witchhunt has to stop
If it stops public figures in the community saying/doing this shit in the future, I have no problem with it. You are going to eventually force an extreme response out of the pros. You are going to alienate them by putting them on this straight edge pedestal and there will be no turning back. Mics on streams will go silent and you will only get music at best(it's only a matter of time before someone finds a pros music offensive), forums will go private-- no longer will you be able to see the pros post and talk to each other/with you on the forums, they will stop interacting with their viewers, fan games will cease, and it will eventually get to the point where they are now "Hollywood Celebrity" status and the only actual interaction you will get is during a Q&A session at a tournament. Is that what you really want? This completely out of touch with reality. There is a HUGE difference between acting unprofessionally and everything you said. Asking a modicum of professionalism (most supply this and more easily) is not 'putting them on a straight edge pedestal' at all, it is requiring the pro's to be as accountable for their actions as any public figure. The 'witch hunt' going on is being blown out of proportion and exaggerated by comments such as these. How is it so out of touch with reality? You don't need to look any further than a show called TMZ to see the direction this is headed.
Because in this instance, the claim is one of the worst case scenario, when in reality that is not the case, and its being proclaimed as gospel
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On May 07 2012 23:00 Tyree wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 22:41 Animzor wrote:
Why is it so fucking difficult to stop being racist? Why is that such a big deal? Easily the best post. In what other community, even on the internet, do you see this? How often does anyone waltz into a movie forum and sees any of this? What about sports? Whens the last time you read topics regarding football, basketball or any other sport that had any of these issues? Why do we have to educate people, and not just people but YOUNG people of today about things a large number of people in the west learned in the 1960's? How can so many gamers be for technology, science, overwhelmingly atheist and progressive and yet in this one field, we just flat out fail in every conceivable way?
Because the attitude the OP and other posters are taking towards this issue IS the progressive approach. I cannot understand why you don't get that making a big deal out of racial slurs that would otherwise be harmless words MAKES them a big deal.
If you simply decide that anyone who disagrees with you is defending racism (which is unacceptable), of course you're never going to understand their reasoning.
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On May 07 2012 22:53 CaptainCrush wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 22:44 Detwiler wrote:
Here we go killing esports again... Yup to actually grow esports we need our communities public figures to call people niggers and gooks on stream and our pro players to throw games they dont feel like playing. Yep thats what we need to grow this thing and all the fans need to just sit down and shut up. Sounds legit. Well to be completely honest, starting a witch hunt and getting a person banned and fired is no better, both create a rift within the community. People just need thicker skin, the scene has nearly fully branded itself as a bunch of cry-babies by now, and little to nothing else other than that. Unfortunately this is the internet, so everyone has ample opportunity to voice their opinion, no matter how stupid and the veil of annonimity makes everyone argue their point until the think they others will actually listen. Of the two options, I honestly think it would be better to sit down and shut up, just let shit like this roll off your shoulders, most of these witch hunts have been started over words anyways.... I'm sure you guys have heard the "stick and stones" saying before...
Sigh... How stupid can people be? I mean really? Take the OP for example. Talking about hurting esports. Or this guy im replying to that thinks we should let thrown games and calling people niggers and gooks just slide because its no big deal. Both apparently want to "grow" esports. Yet I have this feeling that they are out of touch with reality. Because you cant grow the sport while at the same time allowing things like this to happen.Look at korea for example were they have company's like samsung nokia and pepsi are sponsoring teams. Does anyone think pepsi will attach their brand to some one who calls people niggers over their stream? Anyone? Once you get to a certain point of growth you enter the big leagues were like it or not there are certain lines of conduct that cannot be crossed. Period. Full stop. End of conversation. Now if you want to keep the whole scene so small that shit like that doesnt matter thats fine. Thats what the fight game community wants and thats 100% ok. But you cant act like you want esports to grow while at the same time condoning the behavior of nani/orb/destiny the two thing arent compatible.
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On May 07 2012 22:55 Dubag wrote:Show nested quote +1) Naniwa's probe rush in a 'meaningless game' (Dec 2011) + Show Spoiler +It was in a game in which the outcome of their respective fates had been sealed. The series had already been decided with Nestea, and after a frustrating day of playing, Naniwa unemphatically worker rushed to end the series quickly.
The outcry against this play was proportionally out of hand and this was, in my opinion, the largest witch hunt of 2011. While I understand the Korean tradition of playing honourably and completing what was touted as a fierce rivalry, the consequence of not honouring such a tradition was enormous. In elite sports, such as football or hockey, when the playoffs are decided, and a team is eliminated, the best players rest, to preserve them for when games count. When a team is leading by such a large margin, the players rest for more challenging games. In terms of comparison, I see no difference between this or what Naniwa had done.
Yet, do these stars face fines? or suspensions? or to compare to Naniwa, get removed from their respective leagues? Of course not, it'd be absolutely ridiculous. Why did it happen to Naniwa though? Witch hunting; this was the mob's first real taste of blood, and they don't stop here. While the condemnation was originally amongst the korean players as a sign of disrespect, the community witch hunt only exacerbated the situation into what he actually received as his punishment. I only read your post, I havn't looked at the replies so if this has been covered I apoligise in advance. Your defense of Naniwa here is completly skewed. You say when the game doesn't 'mean' anything in football and hockey that teams rest players and put in 2nd tier options is the same as Naniwa throwing a game? You are talking about a team game over a season. Here in AUS we have the AFL, when teams know for certain that they cannot make the finals (I guess playoffs) sometimes they will start to 'blood' new recruits and younger players to give them experiance heading into the next season. This exposes their new players to more experiance at the top level and helps the team become stronger for the following year. What does Naniwa probe rushing help in the long term? or even in the short term? How can you compare a team making strategic moves to strengthen their side for the following season with a 1on1 game where Naniwa had nothing to gain by playing a solid game, but alot to lose by throwing it away? To put it in fairer terms, thats like a football or hockey team sending out their players who then just sit on the ground for the entire game. What do you think would be the fallout from that?
He used a bad example. Think of it more like a football team is down 40-10 on their own 2 yd line with 2 timeouts and 40 seconds left. Instead of playing it out they do a quick run play (essentially a kneel) and let time run out. Do you fault them in this situation for not using up all their timeouts and playing it down to the last play even though they had no chance?
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On May 07 2012 23:03 crocodile wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 23:00 Tyree wrote:On May 07 2012 22:41 Animzor wrote:
Why is it so fucking difficult to stop being racist? Why is that such a big deal? Easily the best post. In what other community, even on the internet, do you see this? How often does anyone waltz into a movie forum and sees any of this? What about sports? Whens the last time you read topics regarding football, basketball or any other sport that had any of these issues? Why do we have to educate people, and not just people but YOUNG people of today about things a large number of people in the west learned in the 1960's? How can so many gamers be for technology, science, overwhelmingly atheist and progressive and yet in this one field, we just flat out fail in every conceivable way? Because the attitude the OP and other posters are taking towards this issue IS the progressive approach. I cannot understand why you don't get that making a big deal out of racial slurs that would otherwise be harmless words MAKES them a big deal. If you simply decide that anyone who disagrees with you is defending racism (which is unacceptable), of course you're never going to understand their reasoning.
I'm all for being progressive but not sure abusive language needs to become more prevalent or deemed meaningless and harmless in general. How much of a percentage of the population needs to not be offended for it to be ok?
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I disagree with Naniwa's probe rush being a witch hunt, or at least that it was wrong, per se. The punishment may have been overly harsh, unless you believe that it was one of many factors and merely a tipping point, as GOM said.
I also feel that we should work to get rid of racial slurs as far as what's acceptable. On the other hand, going to the sponsors should be the last, last resort. I saw many claim that Quantic "wouldn't do anything anyway," but I don't recall seeing anyone say they already tried.
In general, if you hold these beliefs that racist language is getting the community nowhere, it's better to set a positive example than be self-righteous all the time.
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United States209 Posts
On May 07 2012 23:08 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 22:55 Dubag wrote:1) Naniwa's probe rush in a 'meaningless game' (Dec 2011) + Show Spoiler +It was in a game in which the outcome of their respective fates had been sealed. The series had already been decided with Nestea, and after a frustrating day of playing, Naniwa unemphatically worker rushed to end the series quickly.
The outcry against this play was proportionally out of hand and this was, in my opinion, the largest witch hunt of 2011. While I understand the Korean tradition of playing honourably and completing what was touted as a fierce rivalry, the consequence of not honouring such a tradition was enormous. In elite sports, such as football or hockey, when the playoffs are decided, and a team is eliminated, the best players rest, to preserve them for when games count. When a team is leading by such a large margin, the players rest for more challenging games. In terms of comparison, I see no difference between this or what Naniwa had done.
Yet, do these stars face fines? or suspensions? or to compare to Naniwa, get removed from their respective leagues? Of course not, it'd be absolutely ridiculous. Why did it happen to Naniwa though? Witch hunting; this was the mob's first real taste of blood, and they don't stop here. While the condemnation was originally amongst the korean players as a sign of disrespect, the community witch hunt only exacerbated the situation into what he actually received as his punishment. I only read your post, I havn't looked at the replies so if this has been covered I apoligise in advance. Your defense of Naniwa here is completly skewed. You say when the game doesn't 'mean' anything in football and hockey that teams rest players and put in 2nd tier options is the same as Naniwa throwing a game? You are talking about a team game over a season. Here in AUS we have the AFL, when teams know for certain that they cannot make the finals (I guess playoffs) sometimes they will start to 'blood' new recruits and younger players to give them experiance heading into the next season. This exposes their new players to more experiance at the top level and helps the team become stronger for the following year. What does Naniwa probe rushing help in the long term? or even in the short term? How can you compare a team making strategic moves to strengthen their side for the following season with a 1on1 game where Naniwa had nothing to gain by playing a solid game, but alot to lose by throwing it away? To put it in fairer terms, thats like a football or hockey team sending out their players who then just sit on the ground for the entire game. What do you think would be the fallout from that? He used a bad example. Think of it more like a football team is down 40-10 on their own 2 yd line with 2 timeouts and 40 seconds left. Instead of playing it out they do a quick run play (essentially a kneel) and let time run out. Do you fault them in this situation for not using up all their timeouts and playing it down to the last play even though they had no chance?
The obvious difference being that they had a football game to watch in the first place. It would be more like you are out of contention and decide to punt on 1st down all game. That's not acceptable in football and shouldn't be acceptable in pro SC2.
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Take a fucking chill pill is what we do. When Destiny calls someone a *BLEEP* or a *BLEEP* or even a *BLEEEEEEEEEP* you, if you really get upset and it ruins your day because of something a starcraft player far, far away said on battle.net, contact HIM. If that's not possible or he doesn't care, contact the TEAM. If they don't care (first of all stop supporting them), contact their sponsors and tell them the player and his team are ass. You don't take something stupid one player said a long time ago to a random person on the internet and crucify him for it. The jaded cynic in me is also pretty sure these racism-related witch hunts are all started by white guys (I'm well aware that may have also sounded racist to some of you).
The Naniwa thing is a bit of a different beast what with korean pride and all that jazz (to me that whole situation was just retarded, from all sides).
We are like fucking children in the end. We see some mean kid take another kids toy, call him names or whatever kids do and we immediately run and tell the principal, NOT the teacher, NOT a parent, NOT even the fucking kid himself.
This is why I'm starting to drift over to the FGC. To many of them the mere word "esports" is a joke and I'm really starting to see why.
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I've said it in the past, but i'll say it in this thread again. In a way, you are right in that it is slowing down Esports when we go to sponsors and do these so called "witch hunts". The problem is, if we don't get rid of these problems right now they will shut esports completely down in the future.
Right now if the community has an outrage, we are still the community. We still watch sc2. We still support teams/players, and make sponsors money. If XYZ says or does something stupid, it wont kill the sponsors. Now, if Esports grows into something bigger, with far more casual fans, and word goes out to the public that XYZ has been saying racist comments sense the inception of this game years ago, and no one has done anything about it, the sc2 reputation is dead.
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I selected Destiny for the team because I wanted Destiny the player, not Destiny the entertainer. Our shared goal was to provide Steven the support system and opportunities to become the Top GM Zerg player he is today. Everything we have ever done with Steven was either directly or indirectly centered around his growth as a player and as a professional, including sending him to Korea for a few weeks to train.
Being the overseer for 2 of the 3 provided examples, let me say that Steven, Orb, and NaNiwa share among them what I believe to be the fundamental issue at play in these situations - a lack of professionalism in a highly visible and sensitive business environment. To say "Quantic knew what they were getting into" makes me think that people misplace our motivations. Both players (NaNiwa & Destiny) have grown in both skill and demeanor during their time at Quantic, so much so that I would assert they are both the very best today that they have ever been in their entire career.
As a team, we share the same common values as the greater community when it comes to discrimination and equality, but we also stand by our players, even when they make a misstep, not because we are selfish or greedy, but because we see such occurrences as what they truly are - a coaching opportunity to help the player learn and grow so that in future they may be better prepared to make better choices. While I'm left unsure of the best way to handle such situations as a community, I am sure that the way we have tried so far only causes more potential collateral damage than good. At the end of the day, we now are no longer able to help this player, and he likely hasn't grown as a result of this experience. So, in a way, the energy invested in the campaign against his actions counter-intuitively produced a result that likely will not lead to improved future choices, and I can't see that as good for anyone involved.
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On May 07 2012 23:21 QuanticCinergy wrote:
I selected Destiny for the team because I wanted Destiny the player, not Destiny the entertainer. Our shared goal was to provide Steven the support system and opportunities to become the Top GM Zerg player he is today. Everything we have ever done with Steven was either directly or indirectly centered around his growth as a player and as a professional, including sending him to Korea for a few weeks to train.
Being the overseer for 2 of the 3 provided examples, let me say that Steven, Orb, and NaNiwa share among them what I believe to be the fundamental issue at play in these situations - a lack of professionalism in a highly visible and sensitive business environment. To say "Quantic knew what they were getting into" makes me think that people misplace our motivations. Both players (NaNiwa & Destiny) have grown in both skill and demeanor during their time at Quantic, so much so that I would assert they are both the very best today that they have ever been in their entire career.
As a team, we share the same common values as the greater community when it comes to discrimination and equality, but we also stand by our players, even when they make a misstep, not because we are selfish or greedy, but because we see such occurrences as what they truly are - a coaching opportunity to help the player learn and grow so that in future they may be better prepared to make better choices. While I'm left unsure of the best way to handle such situations as a community, I am sure that the way we have tried so far only causes more potential collateral damage than good. At the end of the day, we now are no longer able to help this player, and he likely hasn't grown as a result of this experience. So, in a way, the energy invested in the campaign against his actions counter-intuitively produced a result that likely will not lead to improved future choices, and I can't see that as good for anyone involved.
very well said
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Were the hundreds of pages in the other threads not enough room for discussion? I'm sure that this Destiny thread will be constructive.
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EPT
