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On May 07 2012 20:13 MavivaM wrote:
OP can I ask a little off-topic question?
Am I really the only one on the internet who doesn't insult people when playing games, being them LoL, Diablo or whatever?
To answer a question not directed at myself, I also not only don''t insult people but try and encourage them. Everyone likes being told they are a Gentleman/Madam and a scholar oh the highest order.
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On May 08 2012 00:19 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 00:17 FairForever wrote:On May 08 2012 00:15 Dosey wrote:
I just find it so adorable that these self-righteous white knights have the same mentality as a group of people they would view as scum. IAU submitters.
Example:
If he didn't want me to go to his sponsor and put his entire team at risk, he shouldn't have used racial slurs and offended me.
If she didn't want her naked pics submitted, she shouldn't have cheated on me.
In both situations, you go to extreme lengths to harm the party who offended you. Umm, one is illegal (submitting naked pictures without permission), one isn't. I can't believe you actually used that analogy... Totally legal unless the submitted party owns the rights to said pictures and issues a C&D on them or if the party is under age.
http://news.lalate.com/2012/04/28/tamara-favazza-girls-gone-wild-case-prompts-massive-st-louis-decision/
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On May 07 2012 23:21 QuanticCinergy wrote:
I selected Destiny for the team because I wanted Destiny the player, not Destiny the entertainer. Our shared goal was to provide Steven the support system and opportunities to become the Top GM Zerg player he is today. Everything we have ever done with Steven was either directly or indirectly centered around his growth as a player and as a professional, including sending him to Korea for a few weeks to train.
Being the overseer for 2 of the 3 provided examples, let me say that Steven, Orb, and NaNiwa share among them what I believe to be the fundamental issue at play in these situations - a lack of professionalism in a highly visible and sensitive business environment. To say "Quantic knew what they were getting into" makes me think that people misplace our motivations. Both players (NaNiwa & Destiny) have grown in both skill and demeanor during their time at Quantic, so much so that I would assert they are both the very best today that they have ever been in their entire career.
As a team, we share the same common values as the greater community when it comes to discrimination and equality, but we also stand by our players, even when they make a misstep, not because we are selfish or greedy, but because we see such occurrences as what they truly are - a coaching opportunity to help the player learn and grow so that in future they may be better prepared to make better choices. While I'm left unsure of the best way to handle such situations as a community, I am sure that the way we have tried so far only causes more potential collateral damage than good. At the end of the day, we now are no longer able to help this player, and he likely hasn't grown as a result of this experience. So, in a way, the energy invested in the campaign against his actions counter-intuitively produced a result that likely will not lead to improved future choices, and I can't see that as good for anyone involved.
QuanticCinergy:
I think your response is approrpiate, and exactly what the community needs. I think though, there is an important distinction for you guys with the Naniwa and Destiny cases, and I just want to highlight why they were different, and how they fit into the bigger picture.
Naniwa I see as a true success story for your philosophy, and the community as a whole. If you look at the aftermath of the Naniwa probe-rush incident, I think you'll find much of the response very positive. A fair number of people believed he had turned a new leaf, and were satisfied by the actions taken. Some felt that naniwa was selling out, but would stand by Naniwa and quantic anyway. Others remaining unconvinced. This was a very well handled situation, and I think in the eyes of many greatly improved Quantic's and Naniwa's reputation. Quantic stood by it's player, and Naniwa demonstrated that he took the incident as a learning experience. While you may have received some negative backlash initially, I ultimately think Quantic came out positive on the PR side of this incident. I don't think there has been more collateral damage than good done here in this specific situation. I think much more good came out it.
By contrast, the Destiny incident had one unfortunate problem. Even if Destiny was better than ever before in terms of attitude, he was not up to or willing to bring himself up to the minimum acceptable standard of professionalism necessary. I have no issues (and in fact, applaud) Quantic for standing by their players, but the way Destiny presented himself showed that even if Quantic viewed this as a learning experience, most people would interpret that Destiny (before he was decided to part ways with Quantic) did not. Perhaps Destiny was looking at it as a learning experience, but that is not the perception gleaned from his responses, and with no official Quantic statement on the matter (which I think would have helped greatly, even if it something like 'We are working with Destiny to address these issues. Please understand such issues may continue to happen in the heat of the moment as with all players, but Quantic and Destiny are working together to...). Even something as simple as 'We are currently working these issues out, please give us some time. We will issue a formal statement on this matter once we have gathered all the information'. Yes, such statements may sound innane, but they go a long way to calming people down and giving you some time to address the issue.
Destiny was known for his bad attitude, and was known for it for a long time. I got the sense from a lot of the threads that Quantic did not appear to care (e.g. the Quantic knew what they were getting into, etc.). This is/was clearly not the case. The resolution then, would have been to make a few simple statements on Quantic's stance, and how you were working with Destiny to resolve these issues. It has been clear to me since the Naniwa incident that Quantic cares a lot for it's players, and works to develop them, but some of that development needs to be shown to the community. A little transparency can earn a ton of goodwill and empathy when people understand a situation, how it's being handled and see progress in developing and handling these issues.
I think also, one way to interpret the way you open your post is that you focus almost exclusively on skill, and less on 'secondary attributes' such as presentability. While skill is obviously important, and should always be the primary factor, I think Quantic as an organization may need to place more weight on the presentability aspect, either as a minimum standard or as more of a development focus. Players are not only players, they are public figures too and there are certain minimum standards that will need to be met. Players need either be at, or brought up to that minimum standard. Perhaps you were already working with Destiny as hard as you can (and it wasn't a secondary consideration, as is implied by your post), but then in that case he wasn't developing quickly enough toward that minimum standard.
Perhaps it is unfortunate, but if I don't have all the appropriate qualifications for a specific job, I shouldn't be in it, even if I am brilliant at an important aspect of it. If I'm brilliant enough, I might be hired with the understanding I need to work my ass off to fix the parts I'm not so good at. If I don't make enough progress toward that goal, it's not unreasonable to expect to not be there long, or else the organization understands that it may catch a lot of flak (either internally or externally) for retaining said employee.
As I mentioned in my other post, it is up to the teams to set the standards, develop their players, and self-police. Teams demonstrating that they can do this well will mean that the community with have faith in the teams' ability to resolve these issues, without the need to going to sponsors. I think we are getting there, but aren't quite there yet. I have a lot of faith in Quantic making the correct decisions for their players and themselves in these situations. I think perhaps in this case some concise demonstrations of how the situation was being handled, and how we would see improvement in the future would have gone a long way to help.
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On May 08 2012 00:15 Dosey wrote:
put his entire team at risk
One of the major problems with how eSports teams/organizations are currently structured is that one player doing something like this is putting the entire team at risk. I'm not "blaming" the teams for this, it is just the reality of the situation right now. The scene is not very robust at the moment, and while I realize this is part of the argument for not contacting sponsors in the first place, I don't think that as spectators we should feel any obligation to "eSports."
I think teams could go a long way to helping their cause by laying out clear rules of conduct and punishments for violations thereof in their contracts. If people felt that teams would take action against players who acted this way, I suspect people would feel more comfortable contacting them first. The reason people go to sponsors is because they know it hits where it hurts. If teams, for example, fined players who used offensive language/violated the rules of conduct, then they would be a viable target to go through if you felt the player deserved some kind of punishment.
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I hope a bunch of bitter BW fans band together and start writing outraged emails to every sponsor out there (and practically every foreign team has "controversial" players that would be easy to target). That would either make the scene collapse, or insulate the sponsors against complaints by agitated Internet warriors, which would be a great thing.
Now that I think about it, this is what all of you people who want this to stop should do. Expressing outrage only really has any weight if it rarely happens.
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On May 08 2012 00:19 Jojo131 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 00:13 iky43210 wrote:On May 08 2012 00:09 Jojo131 wrote:On May 08 2012 00:09 iky43210 wrote:
cry me a river. Are people "witch hunting" when sport players says racial slurs or bad mouth in games?
no, they're just expressing their views and pros should know better than that And contacting sponsors is just a sporadic method of "expression". Cute. uh, yeah? If an employee was yelling racial slurs in the store, who do you contact? a) manager b) store representative c) company CEO d) any of the above this should be easy If it was easy this wouldn't be a discussion. Do you actually contact the CEO over one employee? durrrr
On May 08 2012 00:19 Jojo131 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 00:13 iky43210 wrote:On May 08 2012 00:09 Jojo131 wrote:On May 08 2012 00:09 iky43210 wrote:
cry me a river. Are people "witch hunting" when sport players says racial slurs or bad mouth in games?
no, they're just expressing their views and pros should know better than that And contacting sponsors is just a sporadic method of "expression". Cute. uh, yeah? If an employee was yelling racial slurs in the store, who do you contact? a) manager b) store representative c) company CEO d) any of the above this should be easy If it was easy this wouldn't be a discussion. Do you actually contact the CEO over one employee? durrrr
then you don't know shit about AMERICA. you contact whoever that can get your problem solved, and in this case everything on that list is correct.
I have gotten plenty of employee or support complaints myself. I would've preferred if people contact me directly over manager if they deem the issue important. There is a reason people say employees actions also represents the entire company. Who the consumers contact has no relevance, anyone who did poorly is reflected on the entire company.
Contacting sponsors doesn't mean they will drop an entire team. They will most likely voice the message to the team for disciplinary action, and if team can't follow it up then they will drop the sponsor. If Destiny ever offended me, I would've done exactly the same as loose teams probably have no power over its players
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I reject the premise that it was a bad idea to contact sponsors, in some cases. Not Orb, perhaps, but certainly Destiny. Yes, it should have been left to the team to deal with it. But they knew about it, and they didn't. Also, I don't see how any amount of extra information can be a bad thing. If sponsors aren't willing to knowingly sponsor people who use that kind of language, then the answer isn't to hide it from them, it's to stop using that kind of language.
It's a bit like a politician complaining about a newspaper making his affair public.
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Something to be noted all of the writing to sponsors witch hunts have all revolved around things not dealing with sports or esports. i.e. racism.
So basically while in the view of the masses act morally as the masses deem fit. Seems plain and simple, if you don't want to be hunted like a witch don't act like one.
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On May 08 2012 00:21 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 00:19 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 00:17 FairForever wrote:On May 08 2012 00:15 Dosey wrote:
I just find it so adorable that these self-righteous white knights have the same mentality as a group of people they would view as scum. IAU submitters.
Example:
If he didn't want me to go to his sponsor and put his entire team at risk, he shouldn't have used racial slurs and offended me.
If she didn't want her naked pics submitted, she shouldn't have cheated on me.
In both situations, you go to extreme lengths to harm the party who offended you. Umm, one is illegal (submitting naked pictures without permission), one isn't. I can't believe you actually used that analogy... Totally legal unless the submitted party owns the rights to said pictures and issues a C&D on them or if the party is under age. http://news.lalate.com/2012/04/28/tamara-favazza-girls-gone-wild-case-prompts-massive-st-louis-decision/
Pictures taken without her permission.
Lern two reed!
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On May 07 2012 23:47 crocodile wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 23:42 papaz wrote:On May 07 2012 21:30 Mioraka wrote:On May 07 2012 20:16 nRoot wrote:
Now regarding what happend to Destiny, Quantic simply should have seen it coming and talk to him way, way before any kind of shitstorm could start. Everyone knew what was going on during his stream hours, the chance to do the "punishment" inside Quantic was there, they missed it.
I also would like to second a "zero-tolerance" policy regarding racism. That is like saying the most simple solution to prostitution is "men should just be less horny". It is against reality and human nature. This was the worst analogy I have seen not only on TL but the whole Internet. SC2 and all other e-sports/sports out there should always have zero tolerance regarding racism. no ifs and buts. period. The issue is not whether or not racism is okay. It's whether or not you should email sponsors about it. Which you shouldn't. Honestly I couldn't care less what Destiny does, but if you think something he does is wrong email his team, not the sponsors who support Quantic's 6 fucking teams across 5 different e-sports, especially when you're ultimately not even going to hurt Destiny's income at all.
This is the essence of the argument. You don't sue Red Cross when you hear one of their workers use a racial slur, and you don't screw e-sports when there's 1 guy you don't like.
On May 08 2012 00:25 Toadvine wrote:
I hope a bunch of bitter BW fans band together and start writing outraged emails to every sponsor out there (and practically every foreign team has "controversial" players that would be easy to target). That would either make the scene collapse, or insulate the sponsors against complaints by agitated Internet warriors, which would be a great thing.
Now that I think about it, this is what all of you people who want this to stop should do. Expressing outrage only really has any weight if it rarely happens.
This would be funny indeed. Then the butthut sc2 fans can go kill LoL, and then the they can kill dota2, and then we'll be back to watching people like Moletrap restream BW and pirate casts of Koreans/Chinese tournaments who couldn't give a crap.
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On May 07 2012 23:28 khaydarin9 wrote:
Every time I think I've found the worst metaphor or analogy in TL (Ray Charles of eSports wtf T_T), there always seems to be an even more terrible one waiting around the corner.
On May 08 2012 00:15 Dosey wrote:
I just find it so adorable that these self-righteous white knights have the same mentality as a group of people they would view as scum. IAU submitters.
Example:
If he didn't want me to go to his sponsor and put his entire team at risk, he shouldn't have used racial slurs and offended me.
If she didn't want her naked pics submitted, she shouldn't have cheated on me.
In both situations, you go to extreme lengths to harm the party who offended you.
It's like I'm speaking to myself from the future ...
A better analogy would be: if she didn't want her naked pictures submitted, she shouldn't have posed naked for someone. Unfortunately, this analogy shows too easily the weakness in your argument: if you don't like the idea of someone shooting you, don't give them ammunition.
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On May 08 2012 00:07 R3DT1D3 wrote:
Witch-hunts are typically associated with looking for something that's not there. Can we please use accurate language to describe the situation rather than sensationalize and blindly reusing the wrong words?
in my opinion the accurate word to describe what the OP complains about is "mob mentality"
forming a lynch mob is natural, reinforces the sense of community, can be entertaining, ... and in most cases the person lynched will have done something wrong that warrants punishment.
Yet, we tolerate lynch mobs in real-life under no circumstances whatsoever no matter how tempting and understandable "just hang all child molesters" or similar rallying cries might be.
Instead we have "blind" legal systems that try to find a well-measured punishment (always with an eye towards reintegration of the offender into society - which is directly opposed to the typical mob reaction of completely removing the offender from the community). Often these judgements are hard to stomach on an emotional level but as a society we respect them because we know that they are a far better option than tolerating the rule of the mob.
In the Starcraft community we do not only tolerate lynch mobs, we endorse them.
We don't give teams (or higher-level organizations such as leagues, associations, ...) time to arrive at a fair assessment of each case, we show up as a torch-wileding mob in front of the courthouse and make sure to remind the judge (team manager, league representative, ...) that - if he cares for his wife & kids - he better decide our way.
The sort of "justice" that results from such an approach is farcical at best.
Justice is not about whether the right people get punished - it is about whether the right people get the right punishment for the right reasons.
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On May 08 2012 00:29 boxturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 23:47 crocodile wrote:On May 07 2012 23:42 papaz wrote:On May 07 2012 21:30 Mioraka wrote:On May 07 2012 20:16 nRoot wrote:
Now regarding what happend to Destiny, Quantic simply should have seen it coming and talk to him way, way before any kind of shitstorm could start. Everyone knew what was going on during his stream hours, the chance to do the "punishment" inside Quantic was there, they missed it.
I also would like to second a "zero-tolerance" policy regarding racism. That is like saying the most simple solution to prostitution is "men should just be less horny". It is against reality and human nature. This was the worst analogy I have seen not only on TL but the whole Internet. SC2 and all other e-sports/sports out there should always have zero tolerance regarding racism. no ifs and buts. period. The issue is not whether or not racism is okay. It's whether or not you should email sponsors about it. Which you shouldn't. Honestly I couldn't care less what Destiny does, but if you think something he does is wrong email his team, not the sponsors who support Quantic's 6 fucking teams across 5 different e-sports, especially when you're ultimately not even going to hurt Destiny's income at all. This is the essence of the argument. You don't sue Red Cross when you hear one of their workers use a racial slur, and you don't screw e-sports when there's 1 guy you don't like.
Put it in another perspective. If some minimum wage worker accidently hurt you at jiffy lube, do you sue the company or the worker? By your logic, you shouldn't screw the company when its that one guy's fault right?
It is not against the law to use racial slurs, but there are definitely alot of ways to get your disappointment across. All are viable options
btw, of course this will hurt Destiny's income. It eliminates / reduces his future chance at getting sponsorship
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On May 08 2012 00:34 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 00:29 boxturtle wrote:On May 07 2012 23:47 crocodile wrote:On May 07 2012 23:42 papaz wrote:On May 07 2012 21:30 Mioraka wrote:On May 07 2012 20:16 nRoot wrote:
Now regarding what happend to Destiny, Quantic simply should have seen it coming and talk to him way, way before any kind of shitstorm could start. Everyone knew what was going on during his stream hours, the chance to do the "punishment" inside Quantic was there, they missed it.
I also would like to second a "zero-tolerance" policy regarding racism. That is like saying the most simple solution to prostitution is "men should just be less horny". It is against reality and human nature. This was the worst analogy I have seen not only on TL but the whole Internet. SC2 and all other e-sports/sports out there should always have zero tolerance regarding racism. no ifs and buts. period. The issue is not whether or not racism is okay. It's whether or not you should email sponsors about it. Which you shouldn't. Honestly I couldn't care less what Destiny does, but if you think something he does is wrong email his team, not the sponsors who support Quantic's 6 fucking teams across 5 different e-sports, especially when you're ultimately not even going to hurt Destiny's income at all. This is the essence of the argument. You don't sue Red Cross when you hear one of their workers use a racial slur, and you don't screw e-sports when there's 1 guy you don't like. Put it in another perspective. If some minimum wage worker accidently hurt you at jiffy lube, do you sue the company or the worker? By your logic, you shouldn't screw the company when its that one guy's fault right? It is not against the law to use racial slurs, but there are definitely alot of ways to get your disappointment across. All are viable options btw, of course this will hurt Destiny's income. It eliminates / reduces his future chance at getting sponsorship
now what?
its his own fault, he just could acted like a normal person, but no, he likes to say racial things, flame others and other things
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I think there have been some cases of overreacting but we can't have a casual attitude to problems like saying racial slurs. I do agree that some 'witch hunts' have been a little too much for smaller reasons, however 2/3 of the ones you listed I feel were justified. I know you say that it leaves a bad taste in potential sponsors mouths but it leaves an even worse taste if they saw a situation like Destiny or Orb happen and we as a community just shrugged it off.
It's pretty easy to not have a witch hunt come after you. Don't say hateful crap and don't pull off any stupid stunts. I honestly don't think future pro players will be hesitant to sign to teams because 95% of all pros know how to behave and not cause problems. Again, it's not hard to do so but when you pull something like an Orb and say hateful crap, lie about it then apologize when you are caught lying, what do you want us as a community to do?
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Two things:
Naniwa's penalty wasn't due to a "witch hunting", that was GOM doing what was right, not because of what we said.
And, you forgot Katu, which by far was the biggest witch hunt imo.
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Until there is an organization that controls SC2 like it did Kespa, then there will always be witch hunts. The difference from the Naniwa incident and the Orb/Destiny is Naniwa got punished directly from GOM. Teams are very new and are trying their best, but because their priorities are dedicated elsewhere they may look over attitudes of their players which can bite them in the butt.
I'm sorry to say this but there will always be witch hunts until there is a Kespa like established organization for SC2 that dictates all the rules, and this will take some time but it seems like Korea is forming something of their own.
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On May 08 2012 00:34 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 00:29 boxturtle wrote:On May 07 2012 23:47 crocodile wrote:On May 07 2012 23:42 papaz wrote:On May 07 2012 21:30 Mioraka wrote:On May 07 2012 20:16 nRoot wrote:
Now regarding what happend to Destiny, Quantic simply should have seen it coming and talk to him way, way before any kind of shitstorm could start. Everyone knew what was going on during his stream hours, the chance to do the "punishment" inside Quantic was there, they missed it.
I also would like to second a "zero-tolerance" policy regarding racism. That is like saying the most simple solution to prostitution is "men should just be less horny". It is against reality and human nature. This was the worst analogy I have seen not only on TL but the whole Internet. SC2 and all other e-sports/sports out there should always have zero tolerance regarding racism. no ifs and buts. period. The issue is not whether or not racism is okay. It's whether or not you should email sponsors about it. Which you shouldn't. Honestly I couldn't care less what Destiny does, but if you think something he does is wrong email his team, not the sponsors who support Quantic's 6 fucking teams across 5 different e-sports, especially when you're ultimately not even going to hurt Destiny's income at all. This is the essence of the argument. You don't sue Red Cross when you hear one of their workers use a racial slur, and you don't screw e-sports when there's 1 guy you don't like. Put it in another perspective. If some minimum wage worker accidently hurt you at jiffy lube, do you sue the company or the worker? By your logic, you shouldn't screw the company when its that one guy's fault right? It is not against the law to use racial slurs, but there are definitely alot of ways to get your disappointment across. All are viable options btw, of course this will hurt Destiny's income. It eliminates / reduces his future chance at getting sponsorship
That argument is ridiculous. That analogy is on the level of Osama trying to sue Tibet because America supports them.
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On May 08 2012 00:31 khaydarin9 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 23:28 khaydarin9 wrote:
Every time I think I've found the worst metaphor or analogy in TL (Ray Charles of eSports wtf T_T), there always seems to be an even more terrible one waiting around the corner. Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 00:15 Dosey wrote:
I just find it so adorable that these self-righteous white knights have the same mentality as a group of people they would view as scum. IAU submitters.
Example:
If he didn't want me to go to his sponsor and put his entire team at risk, he shouldn't have used racial slurs and offended me.
If she didn't want her naked pics submitted, she shouldn't have cheated on me.
In both situations, you go to extreme lengths to harm the party who offended you. It's like I'm speaking to myself from the future ... A better analogy would be: if she didn't want her naked pictures submitted, she shouldn't have posed naked for someone. Unfortunately, this analogy shows too easily the weakness in your argument: if you don't like the idea of someone shooting you, don't give them ammunition.
Is that not EXACTLY what everyone *for* going to sponsors saying?
"Don't give us the ammunition to do it and we wont"
I was just pointing out how similar these whistle blowers are to some of the "most vile" internet bullies.
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EPT
