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I just came in to say that the sports analogies used in Naniwa's portion are total and utter crap.
Do you know why intentionally losing is tolerated?
Because there is still something to gain. It comes down to what ownership sees suitable for the situation and what fans can ultimately accept. Ownership deemed it appropriate that the NBA Bobcats did a historic tank job so they'd have a better shot in a highly talented and somewhat top-heavy draft class. With something to actually lose from winning (lottery chances) the few but fervent Bobcats fans I know were all in favor of losing. With playoff seeding locked into place or a game well out of reach, teams will often rest their stars in preparation for the playoffs or for the next game. There is still a lot to gain by a short term sacrifice. Yea, it's painful that paying fans have to sit through some bad situations, but it's a sacrifice so hopefully they will have more enjoyable times in the future.
The truth is it's about making the best decision for the fans and team, even if it's a painful one in the short term. In Naniwa's situation, what did anyone gain from that? Absolutely nothing. Okay, Naniwa gets at most 1 hour more rest / practice time. What was lost? A chance to see a good game, something countless fans look forward to when they pay to watch players play.
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When public figures in ESports stop using racist words then sponsors won't be written to, it's pretty simple.
It's much easier for the behavior of those few individuals than an entire community of hundreds of thousands.
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United States4505 Posts
On May 07 2012 23:51 tripp6sic6 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 23:46 Dosey wrote:On May 07 2012 23:33 tripp6sic6 wrote:On May 07 2012 23:30 Dosey wrote:On May 07 2012 23:13 tripp6sic6 wrote:On May 07 2012 23:08 Dosey wrote:On May 07 2012 22:55 Dubag wrote:1) Naniwa's probe rush in a 'meaningless game' (Dec 2011) + Show Spoiler +It was in a game in which the outcome of their respective fates had been sealed. The series had already been decided with Nestea, and after a frustrating day of playing, Naniwa unemphatically worker rushed to end the series quickly.
The outcry against this play was proportionally out of hand and this was, in my opinion, the largest witch hunt of 2011. While I understand the Korean tradition of playing honourably and completing what was touted as a fierce rivalry, the consequence of not honouring such a tradition was enormous. In elite sports, such as football or hockey, when the playoffs are decided, and a team is eliminated, the best players rest, to preserve them for when games count. When a team is leading by such a large margin, the players rest for more challenging games. In terms of comparison, I see no difference between this or what Naniwa had done.
Yet, do these stars face fines? or suspensions? or to compare to Naniwa, get removed from their respective leagues? Of course not, it'd be absolutely ridiculous. Why did it happen to Naniwa though? Witch hunting; this was the mob's first real taste of blood, and they don't stop here. While the condemnation was originally amongst the korean players as a sign of disrespect, the community witch hunt only exacerbated the situation into what he actually received as his punishment. I only read your post, I havn't looked at the replies so if this has been covered I apoligise in advance. Your defense of Naniwa here is completly skewed. You say when the game doesn't 'mean' anything in football and hockey that teams rest players and put in 2nd tier options is the same as Naniwa throwing a game? You are talking about a team game over a season. Here in AUS we have the AFL, when teams know for certain that they cannot make the finals (I guess playoffs) sometimes they will start to 'blood' new recruits and younger players to give them experiance heading into the next season. This exposes their new players to more experiance at the top level and helps the team become stronger for the following year. What does Naniwa probe rushing help in the long term? or even in the short term? How can you compare a team making strategic moves to strengthen their side for the following season with a 1on1 game where Naniwa had nothing to gain by playing a solid game, but alot to lose by throwing it away? To put it in fairer terms, thats like a football or hockey team sending out their players who then just sit on the ground for the entire game. What do you think would be the fallout from that? He used a bad example. Think of it more like a football team is down 40-10 on their own 2 yd line with 2 timeouts and 40 seconds left. Instead of playing it out they do a quick run play (essentially a kneel) and let time run out. Do you fault them in this situation for not using up all their timeouts and playing it down to the last play even though they had no chance? The obvious difference being that they had a football game to watch in the first place. It would be more like you are out of contention and decide to punt on 1st down all game. That's not acceptable in football and shouldn't be acceptable in pro SC2. You didn't get to see Nani or Nestea play in their first three losses? You didn't see how defeated they already were? To expect them to play their hearts out on a game of no consequence on a national stage is just cruel. We don't force the last 10 players out before the bubble to play their own final table for no reason do we? The losers in the AFC/NFC finals dont play each other for the "not-so-super bowl" do they? Again, your example is not valid. First, there is a difference between not playing to your fullest and not giving anything to the fans who view the event. Second, there ARE situations in the NFL where a team has no chance to win a Super Bowl and has to play it out anyway. If you are eliminated from contention in game 14 of a 16 game season, you still can't punt the ball on first down for games 15 and 16. That's still not OK.
In the rare situation where both teams stand to gain nothing, they both play their D-List line up. Which sure as hell IS NOT what the fans paid to see. I would be willing to wager a pretty penny that most in the stands wouldn't even be able to name the players on the field. Not the same team I paid to see translates to not the game I expected to see. At least the latter didn't waste 2 hours of my life while the former did and took my money while doing so. -_- Wrong again. There are several situations where teams out of the playoffs knockout teams still in contention. Most teams treat these games in order to determine who makes the roster for the following year. I'm not saying they try their absolute hardest all of the time, but they don't pull players from the game most often and put on a reasonable show for the fans. Adrian Peterson was injured last year in a meaningless game. If the Vikings aren't pulling a player of his caliber, I'm pretty sure everyone was playing.
Sigh... there is no arguing with people like you, just like there is no arguing with these self-important whistle blowers. You see and read what you want and interpret what you will. You win sir, I grow bored with this argument. I'm going to find another whistle blower to troll.
P.S. Read the bold.
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On May 07 2012 23:43 crocodile wrote:
The point is NOT that what Destiny did is wrong. The point is that it's NOT okay to fucking email sponsors about it. There are other ways of dealing with this that don't involve potentially cutting off funding for a team that supports players other than Destiny.
Of course it's okay. It's not like the Orb situation where the relevant team might not have known that such language has been thrown around by the player in question (and indeed was used again). Some people care more about the use of slurs and casual racism than they do about e-sports, and for them the fact that Quantic signed Destiny at all after his previous controversies as well as refusing to distance himself from such language would be more than enough to lose faith in and goodwill towards Quantic. The team reaped what they sowed, it's all well and good to say they wanted the player not the personality, but at the end of the day this is simply semantics - they were still supporting Destiny while knowing all about the language he has been comfortable using. Supporting him at all indicates they don't particularly care about his language/slurs only what it might do to their image - and so when a situation such as this arises, you cannot blame people for bypassing Quantic and going straight to the sponsors. Indeed I personally think it's a very effective strategy - it sends a message out to teams that if they're willing to take on players who uses such language and is not apologetic about it, they're taking a big risk. For comparison, I'd say Orb's use of language was fairly obscure prior to it blowing up, so EG being ignorant about it (especially since they had a less close relationship) would be understandable and they should IMO have the opportunity to react before sponsors were contacted. Quantic relinquished this opportunity when they signed someone with Destiny's reputation.
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On May 07 2012 23:49 Pwnographics wrote:
That is some of the worst logic I've seen on the internet.
Being able to do something does not mean one should do said thing.
On May 07 2012 23:48 crocodile wrote:
Having the right to do it does not mean that they SHOULD do it. Your logic is childish and flawed.
I'm not saying Destiny is in the right, I never said that but he has the right to do whatever the hell he wants. He got what was coming to him because he chose to act like someone half his age.
What is it with people on this forum not understanding what they just read?
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Witch-hunts are typically associated with looking for something that's not there. Can we please use accurate language to describe the situation rather than sensationalize and blindly reusing the wrong words?
I can agree with the OP on Orb's case because it was digging up the past that didn't immediately affect his current position and was entirely uncalled for.
Destiny on the other hand exhibits this behavior day in and day out. It wasn't so much that we finally discovered he was doing this, it was just a matter of time and getting enough weight behind it that consequences would be enforced.
The difference between a person who shoplifted a year ago and someone who shoplifts every time they're in a store is immense and I hope our community learns the difference.
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Hard to take your "above-the-fray" mentality seriously when in each example you give your own personal, downplaying interpretation of events.
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cry me a river. Are people "witch hunting" when sport players says racial slurs or bad mouth in games?
no, they're just expressing their views and pros should know better than that
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On May 08 2012 00:09 iky43210 wrote:
cry me a river. Are people "witch hunting" when sport players says racial slurs or bad mouth in games?
no, they're just expressing their views and pros should know better than that
And contacting sponsors is just a sporadic method of "expression". Cute.
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On May 08 2012 00:03 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 23:51 tripp6sic6 wrote:On May 07 2012 23:46 Dosey wrote:On May 07 2012 23:33 tripp6sic6 wrote:On May 07 2012 23:30 Dosey wrote:On May 07 2012 23:13 tripp6sic6 wrote:On May 07 2012 23:08 Dosey wrote:On May 07 2012 22:55 Dubag wrote:1) Naniwa's probe rush in a 'meaningless game' (Dec 2011) + Show Spoiler +It was in a game in which the outcome of their respective fates had been sealed. The series had already been decided with Nestea, and after a frustrating day of playing, Naniwa unemphatically worker rushed to end the series quickly.
The outcry against this play was proportionally out of hand and this was, in my opinion, the largest witch hunt of 2011. While I understand the Korean tradition of playing honourably and completing what was touted as a fierce rivalry, the consequence of not honouring such a tradition was enormous. In elite sports, such as football or hockey, when the playoffs are decided, and a team is eliminated, the best players rest, to preserve them for when games count. When a team is leading by such a large margin, the players rest for more challenging games. In terms of comparison, I see no difference between this or what Naniwa had done.
Yet, do these stars face fines? or suspensions? or to compare to Naniwa, get removed from their respective leagues? Of course not, it'd be absolutely ridiculous. Why did it happen to Naniwa though? Witch hunting; this was the mob's first real taste of blood, and they don't stop here. While the condemnation was originally amongst the korean players as a sign of disrespect, the community witch hunt only exacerbated the situation into what he actually received as his punishment. I only read your post, I havn't looked at the replies so if this has been covered I apoligise in advance. Your defense of Naniwa here is completly skewed. You say when the game doesn't 'mean' anything in football and hockey that teams rest players and put in 2nd tier options is the same as Naniwa throwing a game? You are talking about a team game over a season. Here in AUS we have the AFL, when teams know for certain that they cannot make the finals (I guess playoffs) sometimes they will start to 'blood' new recruits and younger players to give them experiance heading into the next season. This exposes their new players to more experiance at the top level and helps the team become stronger for the following year. What does Naniwa probe rushing help in the long term? or even in the short term? How can you compare a team making strategic moves to strengthen their side for the following season with a 1on1 game where Naniwa had nothing to gain by playing a solid game, but alot to lose by throwing it away? To put it in fairer terms, thats like a football or hockey team sending out their players who then just sit on the ground for the entire game. What do you think would be the fallout from that? He used a bad example. Think of it more like a football team is down 40-10 on their own 2 yd line with 2 timeouts and 40 seconds left. Instead of playing it out they do a quick run play (essentially a kneel) and let time run out. Do you fault them in this situation for not using up all their timeouts and playing it down to the last play even though they had no chance? The obvious difference being that they had a football game to watch in the first place. It would be more like you are out of contention and decide to punt on 1st down all game. That's not acceptable in football and shouldn't be acceptable in pro SC2. You didn't get to see Nani or Nestea play in their first three losses? You didn't see how defeated they already were? To expect them to play their hearts out on a game of no consequence on a national stage is just cruel. We don't force the last 10 players out before the bubble to play their own final table for no reason do we? The losers in the AFC/NFC finals dont play each other for the "not-so-super bowl" do they? Again, your example is not valid. First, there is a difference between not playing to your fullest and not giving anything to the fans who view the event. Second, there ARE situations in the NFL where a team has no chance to win a Super Bowl and has to play it out anyway. If you are eliminated from contention in game 14 of a 16 game season, you still can't punt the ball on first down for games 15 and 16. That's still not OK.
In the rare situation where both teams stand to gain nothing, they both play their D-List line up. Which sure as hell IS NOT what the fans paid to see. I would be willing to wager a pretty penny that most in the stands wouldn't even be able to name the players on the field. Not the same team I paid to see translates to not the game I expected to see. At least the latter didn't waste 2 hours of my life while the former did and took my money while doing so. -_- Wrong again. There are several situations where teams out of the playoffs knockout teams still in contention. Most teams treat these games in order to determine who makes the roster for the following year. I'm not saying they try their absolute hardest all of the time, but they don't pull players from the game most often and put on a reasonable show for the fans. Adrian Peterson was injured last year in a meaningless game. If the Vikings aren't pulling a player of his caliber, I'm pretty sure everyone was playing. Sigh... there is no arguing with people like you, just like there is no arguing with these self-important whistle blowers. You see and read what you want and interpret what you will. You win sir, I grow bored with this argument. I'm going to find another whistle blower to troll. P.S. Read the bold.
I read the bold, but it's irrelevant to the points being made. Why would the other team's playoff standing have anything to do with how you approach the game, if your team is out? Why would playing a playoff contender make you any more likely to play hard than a non-contender?
This is discussion. You don't have to agree with me and I don't have to agree with you. If you don't agree, present a counter-point to refute what I'm saying and contribute to the discussion and I will do the same. That's how this works.
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On May 07 2012 20:20 Rasera wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 20:13 MavivaM wrote:
OP can I ask a little off-topic question?
Am I really the only one on the internet who doesn't insult people when playing games, being them LoL, Diablo or whatever?
I do my best not too, because it can ruin the experience for the players. However, I know myself that I will run a probe around dropping pylons because I got BM'd. Or get riled up by someone who thinks he's all that. It's funny to me as well, as I'm rarely infuriated by anything said directly to my face, but a weak link on a team can set me off. It's another of those curious things to me.
I think in real life it's not so offensive because the people you encounter in real life tend to be different than gamers, and you recognize that. Face to face makes it easy to see another's emotion, and people always seem much more kind.
That people that typing things like "lolololol" and "facepalm" to try to be offensive shows where we are on the internet. Internet language is different from spoken language; these words have different emotions behind them. Everyone assumes most everyone else to have an emotional intensity, and so it bothers us more when we lose and they do something as simple as typing "gg" before the game is actually over. If you think someone who has just beaten you is reveling in malice and is fully satisfied at your losing more so than his winning, then there is a greater chance of being angry. It's easy to think this, too, because the internet is so full of perceived emotion that causes an actualization of emotion. I wouldn't be so bothered if I thought I was losing to an emotionless robot.
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On May 07 2012 23:43 crocodile wrote:
The point is that it's NOT okay to fucking email sponsors about it. There are other ways of dealing with this that don't involve potentially cutting off funding for a team that supports players other than Destiny. What the fuck is complex about that?
I think this is a fundamental difference of opinion. In any other case (professional athlete, radio show host, tv personality, etc) I would absolutely notify sponsors that they were supporting someone who was saying these kinds of things. In fact, that are already countless examples of this happening, this isn't just some hypothetical. Now, I will come out and say right now that I've never contacted a sponsor about anything with regards to eSports/professional gaming, if only because by the time I find out about this stuff the ship has generally already sailed. One of the major differences, I freely admit, is that eSports teams and players are currently far more reliant on their sponsors than some other traditional sports, so it can be more damaging than it might be otherwise...
But this is something that eSports organizations going to have to learn to deal with. Players are public figures - especially when they are streaming or competing. And people are going to be upset by their actions if they are offensive. We can hem and haw and nitpick all day about just HOW offensive any given thing is, or whether or not someone "should" be offended by this or that, but at the end of the day the onus is on eSports organizations to handle this. That includes: setting clear rules and regulations for their players, being careful about who their sign to contracts if they have a history of this behavior, and so forth
Imagine this scenario in a pro sports environment. People absolutely would contact that player's sponsors. The player would likely be fined by the team and/or the league - probably as outlined in their contracts and player conduct rules. They player would also likely be suspended from a few games. They player would likely make a public apology, face some consequences, and people would feel ok about it because there was an acceptable punishment, the person apologized, and everyone can move on from the situation.
But right now there is no way to do this outside of the Korean eSports organizations which have some kind of central authority, and I suspect that is part of the problem here. There is no standard for conduct, there is no set of rules for what constitutes punishment for this sort of thing, and all of this is complicated even more by the fact that unlike in pro sports there is lots of solo "practice" time that is actually also broadcast public, so the lines between private and public are very blurred. We are seeing the results of a chaotic system which has no particular control over its players. There are some benefits to this, to be sure, but it also means that any player can do or say something which reflects poorly on EVERYONE, and there is no recourse.
Honestly, I don't have hard and fast answers to this problem. It is complicated and complex and given the nature of how this scene has grown - particularly around things like personal streaming - it is going to continue to be a problem. I'd like to see it start with the teams myself - if they had simple rules for conduct and punishment then this sort of thing would get dealt with publically and quickly. "Sorry I said this, it was in the heat of the moment and it was the wrong thing to say, I apologize" The team could fine them (which would act not just as a deterrent, but as a public acknowledgement of "we take this seriously"). And I think if people knew that teams took it seriously they would feel less compelled to go to the sponsors anyway.
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On May 08 2012 00:09 Jojo131 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 00:09 iky43210 wrote:
cry me a river. Are people "witch hunting" when sport players says racial slurs or bad mouth in games?
no, they're just expressing their views and pros should know better than that And contacting sponsors is just a sporadic method of "expression". Cute.
uh, yeah? If an employee was yelling racial slurs in the store, who do you contact?
a) manager
b) store representative
c) company CEO
d) any of the above
this should be easy
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I think it's hilarious that you use the term "witch hunt" to describe professional players being fired for using language that anyone from a child to a CEO would tell you is abhorrent and unacceptable.
Simple solution: be a professional. Act like a professional. You won't get fired.
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United States4505 Posts
I just find it so adorable that these self-righteous white knights have the same mentality as a group of people they would view as scum. IAU submitters.
Example:
If he didn't want me to go to his sponsor and put his entire team at risk, he shouldn't have used racial slurs and offended me.
If she didn't want her naked pics submitted, she shouldn't have cheated on me.
In both situations, you go to extreme lengths to harm the party who offended you.
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On May 08 2012 00:15 Dosey wrote:
I just find it so adorable that these self-righteous white knights have the same mentality as a group of people they would view as scum. IAU submitters.
Example:
If he didn't want me to go to his sponsor and put his entire team at risk, he shouldn't have used racial slurs and offended me.
If she didn't want her naked pics submitted, she shouldn't have cheated on me.
In both situations, you go to extreme lengths to harm the party who offended you.
Umm, one is illegal (submitting naked pictures without permission), one isn't. I can't believe you actually used that analogy...
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I hate to break it to you but this will never change, and there is nothing to be done about it. Public figures spend most of their time being as fake and placid as possible to appear like able to everyone. There's a reason why it's called Politically Correct and not just Correct. People will always be offended for other people or offended because someone else told them they should be offended. Nobody calls out 50 cent for saying Nigger in a rap routine but if someone like Mitt Romney were ever say it his political career would end and he would immediately be labeled a racist, even though it is the exact same word.
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United States4505 Posts
On May 08 2012 00:17 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 00:15 Dosey wrote:
I just find it so adorable that these self-righteous white knights have the same mentality as a group of people they would view as scum. IAU submitters.
Example:
If he didn't want me to go to his sponsor and put his entire team at risk, he shouldn't have used racial slurs and offended me.
If she didn't want her naked pics submitted, she shouldn't have cheated on me.
In both situations, you go to extreme lengths to harm the party who offended you. Umm, one is illegal (submitting naked pictures without permission), one isn't. I can't believe you actually used that analogy...
Totally legal unless the submitted party owns the rights to said pictures and issues a C&D on them or if the party is under age.
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On May 08 2012 00:13 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 00:09 Jojo131 wrote:On May 08 2012 00:09 iky43210 wrote:
cry me a river. Are people "witch hunting" when sport players says racial slurs or bad mouth in games?
no, they're just expressing their views and pros should know better than that And contacting sponsors is just a sporadic method of "expression". Cute. uh, yeah? If an employee was yelling racial slurs in the store, who do you contact? a) manager b) store representative c) company CEO d) any of the above this should be easy
If it was easy this wouldn't be a discussion.
Do you actually contact the CEO over one employee? durrrr
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It's not just eSports, it's human nature.
I'm sure every single network on TV has gotten tons of hatemail demanding certain shows be pulled for various reasons. It's what people do, for whatever reason. Complaining makes you feel powerful.
One example that comes to mind is the people that boycotted Lowes hardware stores because they advertised, then pulled advertisement, from a reality show about a Muslim family because a racist group of people felt it "didn't show their terrorist side." Obviously a very stupid group of people doing the complaining, but their voice was heard and actions were taken because of it.
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EPT
