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On May 04 2012 00:28 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 00:14 Belha wrote:On May 03 2012 23:59 one-one-one wrote:On May 03 2012 23:51 kcdc wrote:
Really Blizzard? Zerg is the one with weak early game scouting? You know there's a race with no early flying, cliff-walking or even fast units, right? You troll. Protoss has the stalker, which is a fast unit. In PvT you can pretty much always find out if the terran is taking an expansion by poking the front. If you don't feel safe, put down a robo and chronoboost your observer. No one forces you to play super greedy builds that skips out early observers. Learn the match up, then debate about it please. You compare a poke to notice if an expo is set, to a real, consistent fast tier 1 scout. Then you make it worse by adding a tier 2 unit to the early scout comparison. Did you know the existence of 2 gasless rax all ins that look pretty much the same to gasless expand builds? And there is no P build that match that variance and blindness to the opponent. Is pretty much the same situation for TvZ hellion play if scouting overlords got sniped by good marine placement. I guess i'm the idiot for aguing with someone who clearly have no deep knowledge of what is he talking about. Learn the matchup before you debate about it, please. As long as you are not grandmaster I am pretty sure that I am ranked higher on the ladder than you... I do know the 2 rax all ins, they are pretty sweet. I would like to compare them to hidden 4 gates, the ones where you make a pylon in a far location where you make your extra 3 gateways making the build look like a 1 gate expand... Sure , I can scout it if I see it with a reaper, marine or scv as you can scout the proxy rax with a probe , zealot or stalker ... Both these builds are build that you kinda need to "sniff" out by having good game sense.
Oh fun, a pissing match.
Anyway, I don't see why people are freaking out over the queen buff. One extra creep tumor is only going to help against early game pressure / all ins, because once you get to the mid game Terran and Protoss usually have enough detection to just kill tumors whenever they want.
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Nice joke Blizzard. This map is only for 2vs2 on EU. 'Join' is useless unless you create a game.
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I don't really see the point of the queen buff. If the idea was to make it easier to spread creep against hellions, this change doesn't really do that. Sure you'll have extra tumors, but you still won't be able to spread them anywhere without dealing with the hellions in some way. If the idea was to help with early allins, I don't really see that making too much of a difference either as every zerg is just going to instantly drop a tumor and inject as soon as the queen pops; the only way you'd make use of the extra energy on the queen to transfuse is if you were building queens reactively to a rush.
Imo, a spine crawler buff would address both issues in a better way. Lower the burrow time.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Solutions with 50 starting energy of queen:
* Increase Queen cost to 200 minerals
* And/or increase requiring supply cost to 3
* And/or decrease Queen anti-air damage by 1, so it will be 8
* And/or decrease Queen speed on creep
* And/or decrease creep spread speed
* And/or make creep-tumors visibly and non-stealthed, but with 10 armor, like larva
* And/or decrease spawning larvae from injection from 4 to 2-3 larvaes
* And/or make queen armored, so it will be weak vs Void Rays
* And/or add thing, that enemy will see, WHERE creep tumor located, but will need to use detector to kill it. Like moving burrowed roaches or stealthed unit
* And/or make creep tumors visible untill burrowed research is finished. With upgraded burrowing you will be able to burrow all creep tumors. In short word, make tumors visible untill Burrow Research is finished
* And/or make Creep Tumors and Transfusion available after Lair, but increase creep spread speed from Hatchery and Overlords
* And/or make new Queens available after Evolution Chamber, not after Spawning Pool. That delay will be compensated with 50 starting energy of queen
Solutions VS 50 energy (what Blizzard can do instead increasing starting energy for Queens):
* Add researchable upgrade with +25 energy for Queen for 50-50 at Pool or Hatchery I think, it's the best idea
* AND/OR Increase creep rate from Hatchery and Tumors
* AND/OR Increase HP of Creep Tumors from 50 to 100 or more
* AND/OR add 10 armor to them, like larva. Or less, like 5 armor. So Helions will not be able to clear Creep Tumors so fast
* AND/OR make transfusion will cost 25 energy only, but will have coldown with 20 or more seconds
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On May 04 2012 00:18 PassiveAce wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 00:08 Seam wrote:On May 03 2012 23:51 kcdc wrote:
Really Blizzard? Zerg is the one with weak early game scouting? You know there's a race with no early flying, cliff-walking or even fast units, right? N-no...there isn't... Protoss has the Observer...which is getting buffed and generally comes out pretty fast. Terran has the Reaper, and scans. Observers require enormous tech investment to get, and force you down a particular tech path while closing off others. They can not be compared to units like reaper and scans which T can access no matter what they do, because they come from buildings they will almost always get. The same could be said of ovies and ovie speed.
There are like what, 2-3 one/two base all ins that don't require a robo? It's not an 'enormous tech investment' since it's not that expensive of a structure and 95% of the time you are going to build one anyway. I don't think many Protoss players, especially if the buff goes through, are going to argue that getting an obs is not worth while, I mean it's able to be started and come out in 1 chrono boost cycle with this change.
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On May 04 2012 00:46 Existor wrote:
Solutions with 50 starting energy of queen:
* Increase Queen cost to 200 minerals
* And/or increase requiring supply cost to 3
* And/or decrease Queen anti-air damage by 1, so it will be 8
* And/or decrease Queen speed on creep
* And/or decrease creep spread speed
* And/or make creep-tumors visibly and non-stealthed, but with 10 armor, like larva
* And/or decrease spawning larvae from injection from 4 to 2-3 larvaes
* And/or make queen armored, so it will be weak vs Void Rays
* And/or add thing, that enemy will see, WHERE creep tumor located, but will need to use detector to kill it. Like moving burrowed roaches or stealthed unit
* And/or make creep tumors visible untill burrowed research is finished. With upgraded burrowing you will be able to burrow all creep tumors. In short word, make tumors visible untill Burrow Research is finished
* And/or make Creep Tumors and Transfusion available after Lair, but increase creep spread speed from Hatchery and Overlords
Erm.. a lot of those are kinda iffy or way too drastic I'd rather not have 50 energy queens, honestly I like the idea that was suggested earlier for 35 energy queen.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Erm.. a lot of those are kinda iffy or way too drastic I'd rather not have 50 energy queens, honestly I like the idea that was suggested earlier for 35 energy queen.
Blizzard will never make costs, that can not be divided by 25. We ALWAYS have 25/50/75/100/etc costs.
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saying this as zerg:
50 energy for queen is too much
perhaps 30-40
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+ Protoss at the pro-level are doing well, but not at the very top of the pro-level.
Are you serious?
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
saying this as zerg:
50 energy for queen is too much
perhaps 30-40
Read post above your one
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On May 04 2012 00:46 Existor wrote:
Solutions with 50 starting energy of queen:
* Increase Queen cost to 200 minerals
* And/or increase requiring supply cost to 3
* And/or decrease Queen anti-air damage by 1, so it will be 8
* And/or decrease Queen speed on creep
* And/or decrease creep spread speed
* And/or make creep-tumors visibly and non-stealthed, but with 10 armor, like larva
* And/or decrease spawning larvae from injection from 4 to 2-3 larvaes
* And/or make queen armored, so it will be weak vs Void Rays
* And/or add thing, that enemy will see, WHERE creep tumor located, but will need to use detector to kill it. Like moving burrowed roaches or stealthed unit
* And/or make creep tumors visible untill burrowed research is finished. With upgraded burrowing you will be able to burrow all creep tumors. In short word, make tumors visible untill Burrow Research is finished
* And/or make Creep Tumors and Transfusion available after Lair, but increase creep spread speed from Hatchery and Overlords
* And/or make new Queens available after Evolution Chamber, not after Spawning Pool. That delay will be compensated with 50 starting energy of queen
Solutions VS 50 energy (what Blizzard can do instead increasing starting energy for Queens):
* Add researchable upgrade with +25 energy for Queen for 50-50 at Pool or Hatchery I think, it's the best idea
* AND/OR Increase creep rate from Hatchery and Tumors
* AND/OR Increase HP of Creep Tumors from 50 to 100 or more
* AND/OR add 10 armor to them, like larva. Or less, like 5 armor. So Helions will not be able to clear Creep Tumors so fast
* AND/OR make transfusion will cost 25 energy only, but will have coldown with 20 or more seconds
What am I reading there ?
You realize that would break the game right ?
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On May 04 2012 00:28 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:51 kcdc wrote:
Really Blizzard? Zerg is the one with weak early game scouting? You know there's a race with no early flying, cliff-walking or even fast units, right? You troll. Protoss has the stalker, which is a fast unit. In PvT you can pretty much always find out if the terran is taking an expansion by poking the front. If you don't feel safe, put down a robo and chronoboost your observer. No one forces you to play super greedy builds that skips out early observers.
No you can't. He can make a bunker on top of his ramp with inbase CC, forcing you to make a fast robo, skip sentries in favor of stalker incase of hellion rine pushes etc. cut probes AND make 4/5 gateways.
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I dont see why everyone thinks 25 extra ebergy(or a creep tumor) is over the top. All its going to do is by the time early agression hits there might be 1-3 tumors(depending if you start in the main or not) worth of creep so zerg can actually engage before you get in range of the hatch/drones.
And even then it will only take 1 scan to clear out the creep turmors wait for creep to die down a bit then engage. It's just giving zerg more of a chnace to defend early.
This wont affect mid to late game because any t or prot should have pushed the creep back before mid game once or twice. It's not like queens regen energy faster there will be a total of 3 extra tumors by mid game. Once zerg secures his third the queen that spawns there(and any extra queen) the extra energy is iseless because creep tumors will already be there
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On May 04 2012 00:53 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +Erm.. a lot of those are kinda iffy or way too drastic I'd rather not have 50 energy queens, honestly I like the idea that was suggested earlier for 35 energy queen. Blizzard will never make costs, that can not be divided by 25. We ALWAYS have 25/50/75/100/etc costs.
Starting with 35 energy is not a cost. The Queen will still be 150 minerals
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Starting with 35 energy is not a cost. The Queen will still be 150 minerals
I said about all costs in game. Energy cost or mineral cost. EVERY cost can be divided by 25. There are no costs that can't be divided by 25. We have 150, 100, 200, 25, 75, etc. But no 35, 64, 97, etc
What am I reading there ?
You realize that would break the game right ?
Have you read bolded titles?
First portion of suggestion to DECREASE effectivity of Queen with 50 energy.
Second portion is about to solve problem, that blizzard listed, but with other ways.
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I guess energy costs post-upgrade in BW were 62.5, so I suppose something like 30-40 energy would be acceptable if they find that that would be the most balanced.
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On May 04 2012 00:54 MainXpring wrote:
+ Protoss at the pro-level are doing well, but not at the very top of the pro-level.
Are you serious?
Whats the last time a protoss won GSL? Yup, that was MC, over a year ago, who was the last protoss to win MLG? Yup, that was huk in orlando, what's the last time a protoss won IPL? Yup that was whitera at ipl2. What's the last time a protoss won dreamhack? Yup, that was her0. All of these were AT LEAST 6 months ago.
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On May 04 2012 00:14 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:59 one-one-one wrote:On May 03 2012 23:51 kcdc wrote:
Really Blizzard? Zerg is the one with weak early game scouting? You know there's a race with no early flying, cliff-walking or even fast units, right? You troll. Protoss has the stalker, which is a fast unit. In PvT you can pretty much always find out if the terran is taking an expansion by poking the front. If you don't feel safe, put down a robo and chronoboost your observer. No one forces you to play super greedy builds that skips out early observers. Learn the match up, then debate about it please. You compare a poke to notice if an expo is set, to a real, consistent fast tier 1 scout. Then you make it worse by adding a tier 2 unit to the early scout comparison. Did you know the existence of 2 gasless rax all ins that look pretty much the same to gasless expand builds? And there is no P build that match that variance and blindness to the opponent. Is pretty much the same situation for TvZ hellion play if scouting overlords got sniped by good marine placement. I guess i'm the idiot for aguing with someone who clearly have no deep knowledge of what is he talking about.
Actually now I'm interested.. what is the real, consistent fast tier 1 scout for the Terran race?
If you watch the games the difference is that terran after fast expanding automatically hunkers down with bunkers and stays in his natural in fear of a potential X-gate-bust. If anything, terran has MUCH LESS reliable scouting information than protoss. Between the first stalker and the time terran starts the pressure, map control is completely in the protoss hands.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On May 04 2012 01:06 Gfire wrote:
I guess energy costs post-upgrade in BW were 62.5, so I suppose something like 30-40 energy would be acceptable if they find that that would be the most balanced.
Nah, better add coldown to transfusion with 20-30 seconds, and decrease it cost to 25 minerals. No mass IMBA-heal and it still be able to use early game
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For the last time: the problem with the Queen energy buff has less to do with the amount of Creep Tumors (although this will be a huge problem at pro level play where players are on top of their spread) and more to do with the fact that you get free Transfuses upon being built, which makes Stargate and Banshee openers horrible.
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EPT
