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On April 14 2012 21:41 Sapphire.lux wrote:
I understand what you are saying and i agree with the reasoning but i disagree with the conclusion.
It's true, Protoss will move out faster, before the standard death ball, but it will be sort of the same. Instead of moving out with a 200/ 200 ball of units it will move out with x supply ball of units. The first is based on the incredible power of the "ball of death" and the second on the "get out of jail free card". IMO both are terrible ... mechanincs, and make the race ... very anti starcraft...if you know what i mean.
I think TvT and TvZ are by far the best MUs and a lot of people will agree. There is no coincidence that in this MUs, there is a lot less of the "ball vs ball" mechanic going on, the most potential for come backs and multitasking. Both races can punish each other for bad positioning, zone areas of the map, etc.
I'd like to see more focuss on making Protoss less of a WC3 race and the nexus recall does the opposite.
Yes, ok. Agreed! But I don't think the concept is completely flawed. What would you say if the recall only affected non-massive units? Then it would make the chrono-boost sacrifice be crucial (when it would be used early) or act like an additional way to harrass and a way to punish your opponents positioning mistakes - and make the PvX-matchups more dynamic. Nothing more, nothing less. It wouldn't be an "out of jail-card" then.
And i think this is the direction the thoughts should go. Because i think protoss doesn't have to be a deathball-only-species. There are so many options: warp-in, blink, warpprisms, phoenix,... It could be a mobile, active species to. It just seems like any of these options miss something. And i think anything that makes protoss more of the mobility-focused should be considered.
I also think some arbiter-like unit could be considered. Having anti-deathball abilities (vortex, recall) on a typical deathball-unit like the mothership is like a missed opportunity - just imagine what these abilities could add to the game if they were part of a fast, mobile unit. It would encourage non-deathball-play for the protoss and force non-deathball play for the opponent...
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- The dashes mark my responses
On April 14 2012 20:49 freestalker wrote:While you have some good points in some places, in others you're overexaggerating. Let me point out some of them. Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 20:22 Reborn8u wrote: Zerg can get away with barely making any units, taking a 3rd base and producing all drones for a long time after a protoss FE's. Knowing that any push by the protoss in the minutes following the FE can be outnumbered by faster units before it gets across the map. (Don't even get me started on mutalisks  ) Yes, zerg is using that timing to make drones, because he can. If a zerg goes 15 hatch you also know he won't jump you with 6 pool timing, right? You can always hide a pylon to close the rush gap to give zerg less time to respond, or you can threaten with attack and retreat causing zerg to produce units, wasting larva and resources. And don't get me started on mutalisks...... - To be clear, what I think is important here is that all you can do is pretend to threaten. At this point forcing them to make units doesn't even matter, they are damn near 70 drones and have shit tons of larva (potentially a 4 hatch for macro) If you're not going all in, you can't actually attack and expect to secure your own third while applying any pressure. The zerg can just go to 3 bases as soon as you've taken two, and there is no way to simply pressure it while taking your own third. Anything you send will get smashed by roach ling because of the sheer speed and production zerg has at this point. Zerg will also see it coming with plenty of time to get out units. Which leaves protoss with the choice of "Do I all in off of 2 base" or "Do I take 3rd turtle and deathball" Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 20:22 Reborn8u wrote:
Against terran, protoss faces stim/concussive --> medevacs and drops. So you not only need units in place or a drop can crush you, but you can't risk getting caught mid map by MMM. This situation causes protoss to wait until they have colossus or HT to engage once stim/concussive and/or medevacs are out.
This is basically why we see either 2 base all in, or 3 base deathball play from toss, you can't skirmish against zerg or terran. If your army is spotted mid map and isn't far superior to you're opponents, you will never make it home. The speed of your army makes defending fast 3 base play difficult as well on some maps.
Use your force fields. And defense of toss against drops is very good considering you have warp-ins. Not to mention effectivity of a drop against e.g. zerg is very good, since - 1- you don't use supply until you do a drop, if bringing of warp prism is not successful, you only lose warp prism. When you get to place you warp in A LOT of units. They're more effective than zergs units, plus you usually drop to mineral line where it's hard to access by quick units like zerglings. That makes zerg to send a bigger amount of units to defend and creates even bigger hole in the main army. Not to mention you can pack the prism and go warp another base in few seconds. - we are just in disagreement about much of this. Protoss can defend drops great, if the army is close to home. If you try to move out while securing a 3rd while 2 medevacs drop or mutas move in, warp ins alone won't save you. Also, when protoss does a drop, anything beyond the first 4 units can't be saved (and toss units are expensive!) If you go robo/obs/prism/units how early can you afford to also have the charge or sentries, so you can actually catch workers and do dmg.Spending all that money while not being vulnerable to a 1a that rolls you at the front? I don't think it's very hard for lings to deal with prism play at all, if the zerg has any kind of decent reaction time, he will send his lings as soon as he spots the prism and those lings move FAST on creep. So I just flat out don't agree with that point. Not to mention the overlords and creep spread you have to spot drops a mile away. They just aren't that effective until you have disposable income (3 base) and lots of gates. Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 20:22 Reborn8u wrote:
It doesn't help that your first probe gets pushed out by either the first marine or ling that's made, but you have to wait for a stalker to push the first drone or scv out. Then you have to take your best educated guess as to what zerg/terran are up to until you get obs, meanwhile you can be scouted by scans/reapers or overlords. By the time you get obs and see what they are up to, they probably already have stim/concussive or ling speed finished as well as knowing exactly what you are doing. If your going to attack at this point you'd better overwhelm them.
It's just not a fun way to play, protoss could be renamed coin-toss IMO. Nexus Recall would fix this, but I feel like it's bad way to approach the problem and would just create other balance problems. After all the nerfs having warp / ff / crono have indirectly caused, I'm very weary to have something like this in the game.
Ever heard of hallucinations? Use them, they're good, sometimes even fast and can fly. Alright, let me guess what I can scout until you get your stalker... A) you go FE so you won't have any zealot anyway.. B) you go gate, core, getting stalker.. Before I lose my scout I can't see what tech you're going. So what I have here, if I go FE as zerg, you can scout me and I can't defend.. when I make a pool (the only option I really have).. Oh, I push you out. But slow lings are not really effective at killing probes that run, are they. And once you get stalkers you can kill those reapers and potentially scouting overlords. Don't take me wrong, I think this nexus recall could be used, but it needs to be tweaked a lot as it can be very abusive. However, I disagree with many of your arguments.
- Why spend on hallucination and not just get the obs?
Alright, let me guess what I can scout after a marine or ling? The terran walled, I saw 1 gas. Is he going 3 rax, 2rax expo, 1/1/1, 1rax expo, and these are only the most common openings.... guess I better get an obs. Now let's see what happens when I scout a competent zerg, He makes lings, they kill my probe before he can get home, or I retreat him before lings pop. Zerg has overlords at my base I can't shoot because I don't have a stalker yet because I FFE'd. Zerg has a ling on each tower and there is no route to his base he can't see. Is he making drones, taking a 3rd, making roaches, tech .....guess I better get something that flies as I make more sentries and cannons just to be safe. Meanwhile in both of these times, the terran or zerg can know exactly what you have and are making which allows them to cut corners.
Basically, I'm just trying to point out that this situation contributes to the 2base allin or 3base turtle deathball. Because of this blind period when you can easily be scouted, and the mobility disadvantage that follows the terran/zerg early game upgrades. You have to blindly all in (where you can be most certain of an army advantage) or turtle and take a 3rd (where you can be sure you're able to defend harass and use FF effectively to defend assaults.
I think someone at Blizzard is aware of this situation and the Nexus recall is an attempt to change protoss's ability to apply real pressure in the mid game while playing for a macro game.
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i cant believe that people talk about toss having to learn to use cheap and cost effective harass units. give me one single example which toss unit is supposed to be cheap and good at harassing.
the zealot as the cheapest toss-unit is twice as expensive as marines and 4x as expensive as zerglings, while having slower movement speed and therefore being really bad at chasing workers and has way less dps/cost (13.3 to 21 of marines and 28.8 of zerglings and scaling worse with upgrades/cost). dts are more expensive than medivacs, pretty useless in fights and have a own techpath which is quite expensive too
the point of being able to catch medivacs can be applied to pylons or warp-prisms too. in the test maps recall had about a sec time before the warp-back, so random drops will make toss loose units too.
@speed: slow is determined by the difference in speed. stimmed bio is almost 50% faster than colossi and almost a 100% faster than hts and there is not a single unit in the p ground-arsenal that is faster. speed roaches are even off creep faster than everything except blinkstalker and infestor have off-creep the same speed as colossus, chargelots and sentries, meaning that you cant outrun them to fight only the roaches. the only army comp that is slower is inf/corr/broodlord.
ff is a mechanic that is necessary for toss to win early fights, meaning that you cant just throw them because you wanted to be more mobile. over-aggressive play is punished with death in pvx
@drops necessary in pvt: in high level play most toss tend to defend drops and still loose a majority of the games.
@arbiter: i dont see how the arbiter is supposed to be more balanced than the nexus recall. as far as i know the nexus-recall is supposed to bring units home, not in the enemies base, which seems to be what everybody is worried about.
@deathball-warp-back: that completely depends on the state of the game and of the size of the army. since i understood the recall in a way that brought it back to the recalling nexus, it would be impossible to transport the whole army immediately to one point as long as the radius doesnt catch the whole army and the energy cost is higher than 50. the army will be at best split between close nexi, meaning that positioning and scouting still remain extremely valuable.
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I think one of the dangers with recall is that you can no longer distinguish between being caught out of position by risky unit movements and posturing with your army, safe in the knowledge you can always recall home at a minimum cost. But to be fair, this is already the case for zerg: their units have such high mobility they're effectively almost always able to retreat or defend different locations. It's not the case every time, sometimes you want units defending a drop immediately, want units available for counter attacks, flanking etc. but then it's also not as if recall allows you to teleport your entire army around at will. Furthermore, there's still the cost of nexus energy (which will be a lot more useful in HotS) and a variety of other constraints like radius of the recall, delay period.
So I think it could work out fine, just like zerg mobility functions quite well. After all, as zerg you're encouraged to be out on the map, posturing. As protoss, in situations where you had to sit back and wait, you can now risk army movement, potentially leading to more action-packed games.
I do have some concerns though. Just like a situation where one race has no options but to sit back and macro, a scenario with too high mobility can be silly too (think ZvZ early game). Key should be to strike some sort of balance. Protoss has a weird thing where if they ever have a strong enough combination of army and production they can move out and win the game, because of warpgate reinforcements. (like Terran and Zerg, but it's way harder for them to achieve such conditions) Now with recall available even the threat of base trades disappears. Not only can you immediately take a defensive position if attacked in such a way (if warpgate doesn't cover it already), you are also always in the position to decide you have done enough damage to your opponent in the base trade and retreat. But you have been camping their production facilities, while they have been unable to prevent you from warping in units to strengthen your army. The longer the base trade continues, the more in favor of you it will be, unless you were losing already. All in all, I do think that this combination of elements makes it incredibly easy for a protoss army advantage to snowball into victory. (this might require nerfs to protoss units for balance purposes, which then makes the race too fragile)
Another concern, and my main problem with nexus recall, is that it's not dependable. Your opponent can't know how much energy you have saved up, they have to pretty much assume you're always capable of recalling your army back. This will lead to games where you are counting on your opponent making this assumption and taking risks, mind games that I don't really like. Because with forcefields and such, the protoss can force you to commit to an engagement if you approach their army. And maybe you will win the fight if you can overwhelm him, but come out behind if he can just retreat after having stormed your bio force or whatever. This sort of risky army movement just seems confusing and annoying to me. Fortunately, there's an easy solution to this that doesn't involve gimping the recall ability: Add a shared global cooldown to Nexus Recall of ~3 minutes. Pro gamers will know the exact moment you can recall in again and will be able to take advantage of the downtime. The only downside to this that I can see is that you're assuming people are smart enough to be able to use the in-game clock. (therefore, knowing Blizzard it won't happen - though maybe they could add some sort of warning message of "RECALL ONLINE" for protoss players)
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we are currently experimenting with an anti-air spider mine
Pfft. They need to do a few more changes:
1) Let the spider mine fly around. If you are serious about removing the Thor, you have to give it mobility. Make it a just a tiny bit faster than a viking, but with a slower turning rate, so it would add some micro in the air battles.
2) Make it built in pairs, so 2 mines can take out anything but BCs, but 1 wouldn't kill anything otherwise it would be imba. This would add a whole new level of micro and positioning to the game, as well as keeping it sane.
3) Rename it Scourge, and give it to Zerg.
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On April 14 2012 20:49 freestalker wrote:While you have some good points in some places, in others you're overexaggerating. Let me point out some of them. Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 20:22 Reborn8u wrote: Zerg can get away with barely making any units, taking a 3rd base and producing all drones for a long time after a protoss FE's. Knowing that any push by the protoss in the minutes following the FE can be outnumbered by faster units before it gets across the map. (Don't even get me started on mutalisks ) Yes, zerg is using that timing to make drones, because he can. If a zerg goes 15 hatch you also know he won't jump you with 6 pool timing, right? You can always hide a pylon to close the rush gap to give zerg less time to respond, or you can threaten with attack and retreat causing zerg to produce units, wasting larva and resources. And don't get me started on mutalisks...... Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 20:22 Reborn8u wrote:
Against terran, protoss faces stim/concussive --> medevacs and drops. So you not only need units in place or a drop can crush you, but you can't risk getting caught mid map by MMM. This situation causes protoss to wait until they have colossus or HT to engage once stim/concussive and/or medevacs are out.
This is basically why we see either 2 base all in, or 3 base deathball play from toss, you can't skirmish against zerg or terran. If your army is spotted mid map and isn't far superior to you're opponents, you will never make it home. The speed of your army makes defending fast 3 base play difficult as well on some maps.
Use your force fields. And defense of toss against drops is very good considering you have warp-ins. Not to mention effectivity of a drop against e.g. zerg is very good, since - 1- you don't use supply until you do a drop, if bringing of warp prism is not successful, you only lose warp prism. When you get to place you warp in A LOT of units. They're more effective than zergs units, plus you usually drop to mineral line where it's hard to access by quick units like zerglings. That makes zerg to send a bigger amount of units to defend and creates even bigger hole in the main army. Not to mention you can pack the prism and go warp another base in few seconds. Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 20:22 Reborn8u wrote:
It doesn't help that your first probe gets pushed out by either the first marine or ling that's made, but you have to wait for a stalker to push the first drone or scv out. Then you have to take your best educated guess as to what zerg/terran are up to until you get obs, meanwhile you can be scouted by scans/reapers or overlords. By the time you get obs and see what they are up to, they probably already have stim/concussive or ling speed finished as well as knowing exactly what you are doing. If your going to attack at this point you'd better overwhelm them.
It's just not a fun way to play, protoss could be renamed coin-toss IMO. Nexus Recall would fix this, but I feel like it's bad way to approach the problem and would just create other balance problems. After all the nerfs having warp / ff / crono have indirectly caused, I'm very weary to have something like this in the game.
Ever heard of hallucinations? Use them, they're good, sometimes even fast and can fly. Alright, let me guess what I can scout until you get your stalker... A) you go FE so you won't have any zealot anyway.. B) you go gate, core, getting stalker.. Before I lose my scout I can't see what tech you're going. So what I have here, if I go FE as zerg, you can scout me and I can't defend.. when I make a pool (the only option I really have).. Oh, I push you out. But slow lings are not really effective at killing probes that run, are they. And once you get stalkers you can kill those reapers and potentially scouting overlords. Don't take me wrong, I think this nexus recall could be used, but it needs to be tweaked a lot as it can be very abusive. However, I disagree with many of your arguments.
You are one of those posters that is not smart enough to know how stupid he sounds. Unlike Reborn8u, you clearly have no clue what you're talking about. Playing macrotoss in early-midgame without falling behind is the toughest of all 3 races, it is incrediby fragile, one wrong read could cost you the game or put you really behind. You will never understand this untill you play toss versus good terrans/zergs.
People like you are the reason pro's/semi-pro's don't post on forums too much, thus lowering the quality of the average post even more, thanks man.
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On April 14 2012 22:48 Kazius wrote:Pfft. They need to do a few more changes: 1) Let the spider mine fly around. If you are serious about removing the Thor, you have to give it mobility. Make it a just a tiny bit faster than a viking, but with a slower turning rate, so it would add some micro in the air battles. 2) Make it built in pairs, so 2 mines can take out anything but BCs, but 1 wouldn't kill anything otherwise it would be imba. This would add a whole new level of micro and positioning to the game, as well as keeping it sane. 3) Rename it Scourge, and give it to Zerg.
yeah, and when we are about to make arbitrary changes to things, why not just merge every melee unit in a zergling, every ranged unit in a hydralisk and every flying unit in a mutalisk. Then merge the three races into one, because there are not enough differences left to justify them being a race on their own. Then remove hydralisks, because the game will be ling/muta anyways. Then remove the game because it sucks.
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On April 14 2012 22:15 xFeather wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 21:41 Sapphire.lux wrote:
I understand what you are saying and i agree with the reasoning but i disagree with the conclusion.
It's true, Protoss will move out faster, before the standard death ball, but it will be sort of the same. Instead of moving out with a 200/ 200 ball of units it will move out with x supply ball of units. The first is based on the incredible power of the "ball of death" and the second on the "get out of jail free card". IMO both are terrible ... mechanincs, and make the race ... very anti starcraft...if you know what i mean.
I think TvT and TvZ are by far the best MUs and a lot of people will agree. There is no coincidence that in this MUs, there is a lot less of the "ball vs ball" mechanic going on, the most potential for come backs and multitasking. Both races can punish each other for bad positioning, zone areas of the map, etc.
I'd like to see more focuss on making Protoss less of a WC3 race and the nexus recall does the opposite. Yes, ok. Agreed! But I don't think the concept is completely flawed. What would you say if the recall only affected non-massive units? Then it would make the chrono-boost sacrifice be crucial (when it would be used early) or act like an additional way to harrass and a way to punish your opponents positioning mistakes - and make the PvX-matchups more dynamic. Nothing more, nothing less. It wouldn't be an "out of jail-card" then. And i think this is the direction the thoughts should go. Because i think protoss doesn't have to be a deathball-only-species. There are so many options: warp-in, blink, warpprisms, phoenix,... It could be a mobile, active species to. It just seems like any of these options miss something. And i think anything that makes protoss more of the mobility-focused should be considered. I also think some arbiter-like unit could be considered. Having anti-deathball abilities (vortex, recall) on a typical deathball-unit like the mothership is like a missed opportunity - just imagine what these abilities could add to the game if they were part of a fast, mobile unit. It would encourage non-deathball-play for the protoss and force non-deathball play for the opponent...
I agree but...i think Protoss can not escape this ball of death mechanic just by adding other options. Gateway units are relatively poor to make up for warp in, colossus is useless if not supported by the entire army, warp prism is underused because pylons already act as warp in locations and so on.
IMO the "given" recall on the nexus is just bandaging a broken leg that is more likely to cause more harm then good, making 1/2 base all ins less risky thus stronger and helping the death ball's survivability thus encouraging it.
A bit OT but i think the warp in mechanic is the culprit here. Protoss has a lot of cool stuf and more could be added, but why bother with warp prisms, blick stalkers all over the map and so on when warp in from a pylon does this cheaper and better and the most powerfull units have perfect sinergy when in a death ball.
I love SC2 but i think Blizzard dropped the ball with 2 things: mech and Protoss :p
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Does this really surprise anyone given how badly Browder has designed games before?
I doubt I'll buy HotS or LotV when they first come out.
Blizzard needs to hire someone who is actually good at designing games.
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On April 15 2012 00:41 babo213 wrote:
Does this really surprise anyone given how badly Browder has designed games before?
I doubt I'll buy HotS or LotV when they first come out.
Blizzard needs to hire someone who is actually good at designing games.
Please dun be too mean.As much as all of us may hate SC2 design or gameplay or balance,
It is still one of the best RTS games out there comparison with the other RTS games.
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On April 15 2012 01:31 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 00:41 babo213 wrote:
Does this really surprise anyone given how badly Browder has designed games before?
I doubt I'll buy HotS or LotV when they first come out.
Blizzard needs to hire someone who is actually good at designing games.
Please dun be too mean.As much as all of us may hate SC2 design or gameplay or balance, It is still one of the best RTS games out there comparison with the other RTS games.
Not hard to do since it is the ONLY RTS game released recently.
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A long range mission designed for breaking siege lines?
Yeah that would be a cool addition to the game that terran has nothing like at the present!
...oh wait.
![[image loading]](http://www.starcraft2strategymasters.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/GhostNuke.jpg)
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On April 15 2012 00:41 babo213 wrote:
Does this really surprise anyone given how badly Browder has designed games before?
I doubt I'll buy HotS or LotV when they first come out.
Blizzard needs to hire someone who is actually good at designing games.
You realize you talk about designing several award winning strategy games?
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On April 15 2012 01:38 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 00:41 babo213 wrote:
Does this really surprise anyone given how badly Browder has designed games before?
I doubt I'll buy HotS or LotV when they first come out.
Blizzard needs to hire someone who is actually good at designing games.
You realize you talk about designing several award winning strategy games?
Yeah I agree, you'd be hard pressed to find a guy who is more succesful in the RTS genre.
He has crushed all competion with SC2 by creating pretty much the only very popular current RTS game.
He's behind (in my opinion) the two best Command and Conquer games of the entire series (Westwood's Red Alert 2 and EA's Generals)
But if this is how you feel and you decide to leave, Babo213, I definitely wouldn't miss you on these forums.
On April 15 2012 01:33 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 01:31 FakeDeath wrote:On April 15 2012 00:41 babo213 wrote:
Does this really surprise anyone given how badly Browder has designed games before?
I doubt I'll buy HotS or LotV when they first come out.
Blizzard needs to hire someone who is actually good at designing games.
Please dun be too mean.As much as all of us may hate SC2 design or gameplay or balance, It is still one of the best RTS games out there comparison with the other RTS games. Not hard to do since it is the ONLY RTS game released recently.
Define recently and RTS game:
http://compactiongames.about.com/od/topgames/tp/topRTS.htm
Personally if I were a game desinger, there is no way I'd be making a RTS game knowing that SC2 is out there. This genre was already not very popular. Company of Heroes is an excellent game, but even when it just game it out, it had noooo where the number of players that sc2 has today. It truly says something about a game that it's able to reinvent an entire genre and make people interested in it again.
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I personally don't like the fact that Terrans and Zergs are getting new units while Protoss's 2 new units are actually just replacements for removed units. Supposely the oracle replaces the mothership (in the blizzcon video.. now of course we all know it doesn't, but still), and the tempest replaces the carrier.
Protoss right now is the least complete race, and HoTS will only widen the gap. The oracle is an amazing idea, in my opinion, but the tempest is not an interesting one. If you want a "siege" high-range anti-air and anti-ground unit, why don't you double the range of the actual carrier? It would be very different from Broodlords mostly because the sieged army can take care of the interceptors to defend, although charging the actual carrier would be harder.
Protoss will still need new units though, or at the very least new upgrades. Why don't they add cross-tech upgrades? as in, an upgrade that requires 2+ of the following : Templar archives, dark shrine, robo bay and fleet beacon.
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So .... They giving a terran another siege tank? (Weaker siege tank with more range)?
I get it its for tvt. but it can also be used on tvs and tvp.
Terran already has a area control unit. and now u giving them a another one?
I dont get blizzard man. they say terran is "polished" yet they trying to find ways to be more "dynamic" because of tvt.
wonder why i dont here they trying to make z or p more dynamic?
The way i see it. terrans already has alot of options, it is really kinda pointless in giving them more options.
why dont blizz give z a structure thats cheap and can wall off and p a fast harras unit and just leave terran alone?
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I just wish they get the Starcraft Broodwars original team to make Hots and lotv.
Dustin is mixing lotrbfme with starcraft... lotrbfme is so imba.. and he our "team leader"
they a saying.. if something not broken.. dont fix it.
blizz didnt fix it. they just replaced it with different parts.???
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On April 15 2012 01:38 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 00:41 babo213 wrote:
Does this really surprise anyone given how badly Browder has designed games before?
I doubt I'll buy HotS or LotV when they first come out.
Blizzard needs to hire someone who is actually good at designing games.
You realize you talk about designing several award winning strategy games?
Dustin made. comand and conquer generals?................... imba game. (Fame = introduced a new build idea)
red alert 2.................................... .imba game (Fame = there was like the only 3 rts at that time)
lords of the rings battle for middle earth................ imba game. (Fame = From the movie)
Thats why u dont hear being played as esports.
Reason why starcraft2 flied?? It was already a esport game.
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On April 15 2012 02:40 brimestone wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 01:38 Big J wrote:On April 15 2012 00:41 babo213 wrote:
Does this really surprise anyone given how badly Browder has designed games before?
I doubt I'll buy HotS or LotV when they first come out.
Blizzard needs to hire someone who is actually good at designing games.
You realize you talk about designing several award winning strategy games? Dustin made. comand and conquer generals?................... imba game. (Fame = introduced a new build idea) red alert 2.................................... .imba game (Fame = there was like the only 3 rts at that time) lords of the rings battle for middle earth................ imba game. (Fame = From the movie) Thats why u dont hear being played as esports. Reason why starcraft2 flied?? It was already a esport game.
Oh come on. What's so imba about those games? They were never played as esports, we absolutly can't say if they would be broken. The one that was closest to esports - Generals - was said to be kind of balanced for the level it was being played at, at least before Zero Hour.
Around the time of RA2, there were tons of strategy games around. 2001 alone there were other rather big ones like Empire Earth, Stronghold or Settlers IV.
Battle for middle earth, I can't say too much about it. I played it for a very short time, loved the atmosphere and everything apart from the Herodependence.
Here is a list of RTS games:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_real-time_strategy_video_games
Good luck finding more than a handful of games, that get even close to Generals or RA2 in both, quality and success.
Denying that Browder is one of the best RTS - gamedesigners out there means denying facts.
You may argue that his games were different from Starcraft (and Starcraft:Broodwar), but they are still closer than most other RTS games to it and apart from possible balance issues (which we can't really say a lot about, because those games just never have been played at a level SC2 was played at during the beta), they play out very interestingly and fun.
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On April 14 2012 18:33 SiroKO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 15:28 blinkingangels wrote:I thought I might just bring this back up to get more opinions. I still think it needs to be removed for so many different reasons. Poll: Should Nexus Recall stay in the game?No. (94) 58% Yes. (38) 24% Yes, but it needs to be tweaked. (29) 18% 161 total votes Your vote: Should Nexus Recall stay in the game? (Vote): Yes.
(Vote): No.
(Vote): Yes, but it needs to be tweaked.
Oh please, don't be stupid. Blizzard can tweak it and make nexus recall only actually recall like 12 or even 6 units... That would allow the Protoss to save his sentries and thus be able to pressure early the Zerg without having to all-in... How's that inherently broken ? How can you be so close-minded that you can reject the concept of a spell when you don't even know it and have even less clue about how it will interact with other new aspects of HoTS... I mean you don't even know what are the new aspects of HoTS T_T... This all sadly reminds me of the pre-Beta discussion about auto-mining, larva injection, infinite group selection and so on...I'm afraid they will come again but in a new form...
You're right its not like anyone knows anything about this game and how this might change it. Please don't be stupid and act like people who speculate on the effects of this spell are close-minded because you want a neat new spell for your race. Maybe you should read the rest of the thread where people are actually discussing this spell in an intelligent manner.
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EPT
