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On April 14 2012 15:28 blinkingangels wrote:I thought I might just bring this back up to get more opinions. I still think it needs to be removed for so many different reasons. Poll: Should Nexus Recall stay in the game?No. (94) 58% Yes. (38) 24% Yes, but it needs to be tweaked. (29) 18% 161 total votes Your vote: Should Nexus Recall stay in the game? (Vote): Yes.
(Vote): No.
(Vote): Yes, but it needs to be tweaked.
Oh please, don't be stupid.
Blizzard can tweak it and make nexus recall only actually recall like 12 or even 6 units...
That would allow the Protoss to save his sentries and thus be able to pressure early the Zerg without having to all-in...
How's that inherently broken ?
How can you be so close-minded that you can reject the concept of a spell when you don't even know it and have even less clue about how it will interact with other new aspects of HoTS... I mean you don't even know what are the new aspects of HoTS T_T...
This all sadly reminds me of the pre-Beta discussion about auto-mining, larva injection, infinite group selection and so on...I'm afraid they will come again but in a new form...
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There are a ton of possibilities to make an ability like nexus recall balanced and in fact even more interestingwithout removing it. Like for example no recall for massive units, high-tier-research needed before use, lot of energy for use, cast-delay on use (rendereing units helpless while waiting to be recalled just as with warp-in), units loosing shields/energy after being recalled...
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Defensive recall in combination with warp in on 100 min buildings -.- What the flying fuck are they thinking?.
Completly remove warpgates first then it might be a good addition.
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On April 14 2012 18:33 SiroKO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 15:28 blinkingangels wrote:I thought I might just bring this back up to get more opinions. I still think it needs to be removed for so many different reasons. Poll: Should Nexus Recall stay in the game?No. (94) 58% Yes. (38) 24% Yes, but it needs to be tweaked. (29) 18% 161 total votes Your vote: Should Nexus Recall stay in the game? (Vote): Yes.
(Vote): No.
(Vote): Yes, but it needs to be tweaked.
Oh please, don't be stupid. Blizzard can tweak it and make nexus recall only actually recall like 12 or even 6 units... That would allow the Protoss to save his sentries and thus be able to pressure early the Zerg without having to all-in... How's that inherently broken ? How can you be so close-minded that you can reject the concept of a spell when you don't even know it and have even less clue about how it will interact with other new aspects of HoTS... I mean you don't even know what are the new aspects of HoTS T_T... This all sadly reminds me of the pre-Beta discussion about auto-mining, larva injection, infinite group selection and so on...I'm afraid they will come again but in a new form...
The thing is we know how mass recall works. The mothership currently has it and there are great videos of what it is capable of and those would only be compounded if it was available on an earlier unit/building. There is no amount of energy that makes that ability not worth it. If you told me I had to sacrifice a Nexus to use it I would build an extra Nexus or 2 in the mid game and several in late game in order to do amazing harass.
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Italy12246 Posts
On April 14 2012 19:16 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 18:33 SiroKO wrote:On April 14 2012 15:28 blinkingangels wrote:I thought I might just bring this back up to get more opinions. I still think it needs to be removed for so many different reasons. Poll: Should Nexus Recall stay in the game?No. (94) 58% Yes. (38) 24% Yes, but it needs to be tweaked. (29) 18% 161 total votes Your vote: Should Nexus Recall stay in the game? (Vote): Yes.
(Vote): No.
(Vote): Yes, but it needs to be tweaked.
Oh please, don't be stupid. Blizzard can tweak it and make nexus recall only actually recall like 12 or even 6 units... That would allow the Protoss to save his sentries and thus be able to pressure early the Zerg without having to all-in... How's that inherently broken ? How can you be so close-minded that you can reject the concept of a spell when you don't even know it and have even less clue about how it will interact with other new aspects of HoTS... I mean you don't even know what are the new aspects of HoTS T_T... This all sadly reminds me of the pre-Beta discussion about auto-mining, larva injection, infinite group selection and so on...I'm afraid they will come again but in a new form... The thing is we know how mass recall works. The mothership currently has it and there are great videos of what it is capable of and those would only be compounded if it was available on an earlier unit/building. There is no amount of energy that makes that ability not worth it. If you told me I had to sacrifice a Nexus to use it I would build an extra Nexus or 2 in the mid game and several in late game in order to do amazing harass.
If you tweak energy costs and number of units recalled correctly i think it can be balanced.
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On April 14 2012 08:47 deviator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 08:27 KULA_u wrote:On April 14 2012 08:13 deviator wrote:On April 14 2012 08:03 Scila wrote:On April 14 2012 06:29 deviator wrote:
IMO, Terran needs more AOE units. Protoss has Colossi and Zerg has Banes. And Hellions aren't that great of a unit, the battle hellion has shit range. They NEED the Shredder to deal with chargelots and mass ling No, AOE ruins this game. Just look at Protoss. Colossus are stupid units with super low micro requirements and do devastating damage to everything on the ground. If anything, Blizzard simply needs to fix Terran late game. Make seeker missile viable by increasing range and speed. Make Thors/BC/Raven viable vs Toss by making mechanical units immune to Feedback, or at least Immune to the damage portion. Buff mech (as they are pretty much doing with HOTS) , give bio a nerf, and Terran will be in a perfect state. No more of these dumb situations where Terran and the other races have a super high or super low chance to win in early/mid/late game. AOE does not ruin the game. If anything, the Colossus makes the Terran or Zerg have to split their units and dodge them lasers. And if the Terran has more AOE units, then Protoss and Zerg will have to think up more and different strats. yes it does. one of the main problems with SC2 is terrible terrible damage that leads to short fights that cannot be microed and are boring for the spectator. aside from general bad damage design (hydra glass cannon and constant-stim-marines anyone?) the problem lies with the movement-AI that favours clumping. This clumping increases the damage of units per area manifold without any micro required. It, however, also enhances the potency of AOEs towards the ridiculous, making AOEs very hard to balance, because on the one hand you want AOEs like psi storm, colossi-lasers, or fungal growth to be strong even when only hitting 4-5 units but on the other hand you also cannot make it too strong against large numbers of units. --> you have to fiddle with damage and area but in the end there is no good middle ground because of the prevalence of hardcore clumping. You're just some random SC2 hater/BW elitist and you probably can't handle the death ball, that's why you're saying this type of misinformed information. It's just your opinion. I've seen plenty of people who micro around Colossi and storm and fungal. If you can't do it, doesn't mean it's bad. Swing and miss, slugger.
way to go attacking the person instead of the argument...
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Honestly, Mass Recall on the nexus should not be in the game.
Players should be punished for getting caught in bad position with their army.
Having this ability eliminates that risk and that is bad for the game regardless of balance.
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On April 14 2012 19:21 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 19:16 Adreme wrote:On April 14 2012 18:33 SiroKO wrote:On April 14 2012 15:28 blinkingangels wrote:I thought I might just bring this back up to get more opinions. I still think it needs to be removed for so many different reasons. Poll: Should Nexus Recall stay in the game?No. (94) 58% Yes. (38) 24% Yes, but it needs to be tweaked. (29) 18% 161 total votes Your vote: Should Nexus Recall stay in the game? (Vote): Yes.
(Vote): No.
(Vote): Yes, but it needs to be tweaked.
Oh please, don't be stupid. Blizzard can tweak it and make nexus recall only actually recall like 12 or even 6 units... That would allow the Protoss to save his sentries and thus be able to pressure early the Zerg without having to all-in... How's that inherently broken ? How can you be so close-minded that you can reject the concept of a spell when you don't even know it and have even less clue about how it will interact with other new aspects of HoTS... I mean you don't even know what are the new aspects of HoTS T_T... This all sadly reminds me of the pre-Beta discussion about auto-mining, larva injection, infinite group selection and so on...I'm afraid they will come again but in a new form... The thing is we know how mass recall works. The mothership currently has it and there are great videos of what it is capable of and those would only be compounded if it was available on an earlier unit/building. There is no amount of energy that makes that ability not worth it. If you told me I had to sacrifice a Nexus to use it I would build an extra Nexus or 2 in the mid game and several in late game in order to do amazing harass. If you tweak energy costs and number of units recalled correctly i think it can be balanced.
Lets say all 100 energy and only 8 stalkers (probably 9 if it goes off area but work with me here) then in midgame you get blink and send 16-18 stalkers w/ blink and suicide them to kill a hatch or a CC or even mess with production lines and then moment army is back it all gets out. I just cant see how its not a ridiculously effective meathod of harassment because you cant split your army in 2 and hope he does that because if he doenst and just attacks you with his main or if hit squad is big enough you will get rolled.
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I can't believe people are defending this nexus recall thing.
It takes away from tactics, positioning, even timings. It doesn't matter if it will be balanced, after a few months it will become like the Colossus. The "cool" factor will fade away and we'll be left with an ability that "protects" bad play and makes Protoss even more gimmicky, death ball friendly, warcraft 3 like race.
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On April 14 2012 19:34 FakeDeath wrote:
Honestly, Mass Recall on the nexus should not be in the game.
Players should be punished for getting caught in bad position with their army.
Having this ability eliminates that risk and that is bad for the game regardless of balance.
Consider that the biggest problem for balancing protoss has been that they can't retreat effectively from zerg or terran. The speed of lings, roaches, stimmed MM, and abilities like fungal or concussive shells are the big reason Protoss is such a death ball race.
Protoss of all lvls are in situations in many games where they can't have any map presence against zerg or terran in the early or mid game (when protoss is playing for a macro game and keeping up with expansions.)
Zerg can get away with barely making any units, taking a 3rd base and producing all drones for a long time after a protoss FE's. Knowing that any push by the protoss in the minutes following the FE can be outnumbered by faster units before it gets across the map. (Don't even get me started on mutalisks  )
Against terran, protoss faces stim/concussive --> medevacs and drops. So you not only need units in place or a drop can crush you, but you can't risk getting caught mid map by MMM. This situation causes protoss to wait until they have colossus or HT to engage once stim/concussive and/or medevacs are out.
This is basically why we see either 2 base all in, or 3 base deathball play from toss, you can't skirmish against zerg or terran. If your army is spotted mid map and isn't far superior to you're opponents, you will never make it home. The speed of your army makes defending fast 3 base play difficult as well on some maps.
It doesn't help that your first probe gets pushed out by either the first marine or ling that's made, but you have to wait for a stalker to push the first drone or scv out. Then you have to take your best educated guess as to what zerg/terran are up to until you get obs, meanwhile you can be scouted by scans/reapers or overlords. By the time you get obs and see what they are up to, they probably already have stim/concussive or ling speed finished as well as knowing exactly what you are doing. If your going to attack at this point you'd better overwhelm them.
It's just not a fun way to play, protoss could be renamed coin-toss IMO. Nexus Recall would fix this, but I feel like it's bad way to approach the problem and would just create other balance problems. After all the nerfs having warp / ff / crono have indirectly caused, I'm very weary to have something like this in the game.
Please don't think this is QQ, I'm just attempting to point out the situation that nexus recall is trying to bandaid. I understand that FF can prevent retreat, but protoss doesn't have to actually engage to loose it's army, it just has to leave it's base. Everything can run it down in the mid game, and you can't get to your main in time to stop harassment from doing damage, so it's usually a bad idea to leave your base for most of the mid game or just all in and overwhelm.
I'm all for Nexus recall never seeing the light of day, but IMO something needs to be done to give protoss the ability to have map presence in the mid game without a 2 base all in.
TLDR: The mid game situation for protoss being able to move out and apply pressure without an all in (because of unit speeds and cocussive in protoss vs Terran and Zerg) and the lack of scouting from first probe getting pushed out until obs (while protoss can easily be scouted in this time), is what Nexus recall is attempting to fix. Instead of a more serious overhaul of the race. We need to focus on the problem, nexus recall just happens to be a lousy solution IMO.
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On April 14 2012 18:33 SiroKO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 15:28 blinkingangels wrote:I thought I might just bring this back up to get more opinions. I still think it needs to be removed for so many different reasons. Poll: Should Nexus Recall stay in the game?No. (94) 58% Yes. (38) 24% Yes, but it needs to be tweaked. (29) 18% 161 total votes Your vote: Should Nexus Recall stay in the game? (Vote): Yes.
(Vote): No.
(Vote): Yes, but it needs to be tweaked.
Oh please, don't be stupid. Blizzard can tweak it and make nexus recall only actually recall like 12 or even 6 units... That would allow the Protoss to save his sentries and thus be able to pressure early the Zerg without having to all-in... How's that inherently broken ? How can you be so close-minded that you can reject the concept of a spell when you don't even know it and have even less clue about how it will interact with other new aspects of HoTS... I mean you don't even know what are the new aspects of HoTS T_T... This all sadly reminds me of the pre-Beta discussion about auto-mining, larva injection, infinite group selection and so on...I'm afraid they will come again but in a new form...
Quoted for truth.
in the unofficial hots maps by xenox you need 3 recalls to save a mid sized army.
also note that this is recall and not mass recall like the mothership now has.
people should be happy that Blizzard is trying to be transparant, instead of bitching about a spell that isn't even in the game yst and can still be modified in tons of different ways.
I for one am looking forward for HOTS.
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While you have some good points in some places, in others you're overexaggerating. Let me point out some of them.
On April 14 2012 20:22 Reborn8u wrote: Zerg can get away with barely making any units, taking a 3rd base and producing all drones for a long time after a protoss FE's. Knowing that any push by the protoss in the minutes following the FE can be outnumbered by faster units before it gets across the map. (Don't even get me started on mutalisks )
Yes, zerg is using that timing to make drones, because he can. If a zerg goes 15 hatch you also know he won't jump you with 6 pool timing, right? You can always hide a pylon to close the rush gap to give zerg less time to respond, or you can threaten with attack and retreat causing zerg to produce units, wasting larva and resources. And don't get me started on mutalisks......
On April 14 2012 20:22 Reborn8u wrote:
Against terran, protoss faces stim/concussive --> medevacs and drops. So you not only need units in place or a drop can crush you, but you can't risk getting caught mid map by MMM. This situation causes protoss to wait until they have colossus or HT to engage once stim/concussive and/or medevacs are out.
This is basically why we see either 2 base all in, or 3 base deathball play from toss, you can't skirmish against zerg or terran. If your army is spotted mid map and isn't far superior to you're opponents, you will never make it home. The speed of your army makes defending fast 3 base play difficult as well on some maps.
Use your force fields. And defense of toss against drops is very good considering you have warp-ins. Not to mention effectivity of a drop against e.g. zerg is very good, since - 1- you don't use supply until you do a drop, if bringing of warp prism is not successful, you only lose warp prism. When you get to place you warp in A LOT of units. They're more effective than zergs units, plus you usually drop to mineral line where it's hard to access by quick units like zerglings. That makes zerg to send a bigger amount of units to defend and creates even bigger hole in the main army. Not to mention you can pack the prism and go warp another base in few seconds.
On April 14 2012 20:22 Reborn8u wrote:
It doesn't help that your first probe gets pushed out by either the first marine or ling that's made, but you have to wait for a stalker to push the first drone or scv out. Then you have to take your best educated guess as to what zerg/terran are up to until you get obs, meanwhile you can be scouted by scans/reapers or overlords. By the time you get obs and see what they are up to, they probably already have stim/concussive or ling speed finished as well as knowing exactly what you are doing. If your going to attack at this point you'd better overwhelm them.
It's just not a fun way to play, protoss could be renamed coin-toss IMO. Nexus Recall would fix this, but I feel like it's bad way to approach the problem and would just create other balance problems. After all the nerfs having warp / ff / crono have indirectly caused, I'm very weary to have something like this in the game.
Ever heard of hallucinations? Use them, they're good, sometimes even fast and can fly.
Alright, let me guess what I can scout until you get your stalker... A) you go FE so you won't have any zealot anyway.. B) you go gate, core, getting stalker.. Before I lose my scout I can't see what tech you're going. So what I have here, if I go FE as zerg, you can scout me and I can't defend.. when I make a pool (the only option I really have).. Oh, I push you out. But slow lings are not really effective at killing probes that run, are they. And once you get stalkers you can kill those reapers and potentially scouting overlords.
Don't take me wrong, I think this nexus recall could be used, but it needs to be tweaked a lot as it can be very abusive. However, I disagree with many of your arguments.
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Zerg still needs a lot of work in my opinion...they are not swarmy enough in the early-mid game.
Zerg also doesn't have that backbone unit composition like Terran or Protoss. Terrans have MMM and Protoss have Zealot/Stalker/Sentry...
Zergs need to fumble and tech switch constantly...
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i really hate that oracle unit. hope they get rid of it
the onus is on terran do do harassment to the protoss and if it fails they are likely to lose. now that protoss can do mineral harassment of their own its like t is going to have to do twice as much >.> idk. besides that its a lame single purpose unit
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On April 14 2012 19:44 Sapphire.lux wrote:
I can't believe people are defending this nexus recall thing.
It takes away from tactics, positioning, even timings. It doesn't matter if it will be balanced, after a few months it will become like the Colossus. The "cool" factor will fade away and we'll be left with an ability that "protects" bad play and makes Protoss even more gimmicky, death ball friendly, warcraft 3 like race.
I think the nexus recall thing will benefit non-deathball-styles more than deathball-styles. It helps moving out before the security of having a deathball is achieved. It enables hit-and-run guerrilla tactics. It was the same in warcraft 3 - it didn't promote deathballs, it just promoted action. It promoted moving out with a weak(er) army, trying comebacks,... It sure takes some positioning skill away! That's true. But it's not without a price. You sacrifice chrono-boosts and you have to decide on saving up energy instead of speeding up your economy/tech. So Recall is as much of a timing decision. Using Recall in an unskilled way will even wreck your timings by delaying your upgrades/saturation/... And it's opening up more tactics, so I'd say that's good, too.
I think everything that promotes and enables activity pre-deathball, weakens deathballs, takes supply away from deathballs or even opens up alternative hit-and-run/multitasking styles is good and will in the end even make the game require more skill.
That's why i really like the Recall and Oracle (<3) changes!
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On April 14 2012 21:16 xFeather wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 19:44 Sapphire.lux wrote:
I can't believe people are defending this nexus recall thing.
It takes away from tactics, positioning, even timings. It doesn't matter if it will be balanced, after a few months it will become like the Colossus. The "cool" factor will fade away and we'll be left with an ability that "protects" bad play and makes Protoss even more gimmicky, death ball friendly, warcraft 3 like race. I think the nexus recall thing will benefit non-deathball-styles more than deathball-styles. It helps moving out before the security of having a deathball is achieved. It enables hit-and-run guerrilla tactics. It was the same in warcraft 3 - it didn't promote deathballs, it just promoted action. It promoted moving out with a weak(er) army, trying comebacks,... It sure takes some positioning skill away! That's true. But it's not without a price. You sacrifice chrono-boosts and you have to decide on saving up energy instead of speeding up your economy/tech. So Recall is as much of a timing decision. Using Recall in an unskilled way will even wreck your timings by delaying your upgrades/saturation/... And it's opening up more tactics, so I'd say that's good, too. I think everything that promotes and enables activity pre-deathball, weakens deathballs, takes supply away from deathballs or even opens up alternative hit-and-run/multitasking styles is good and will in the end even make the game require more skill. That's why i really like the Recall and Oracle (<3) changes!
I understand what you are saying and i agree with the reasoning but i disagree with the conclusion.
It's true, Protoss will move out faster, before the standard death ball, but it will be sort of the same. Instead of moving out with a 200/ 200 ball of units it will move out with x supply ball of units. The first is based on the incredible power of the "ball of death" and the second on the "get out of jail free card". IMO both are terrible ... mechanincs, and make the race ... very anti starcraft...if you know what i mean.
I think TvT and TvZ are by far the best MUs and a lot of people will agree. There is no coincidence that in this MUs, there is a lot less of the "ball vs ball" mechanic going on, the most potential for come backs and multitasking. Both races can punish each other for bad positioning, zone areas of the map, etc.
I'd like to see more focuss on making Protoss less of a WC3 race and the nexus recall does the opposite.
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On April 14 2012 21:16 xFeather wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 19:44 Sapphire.lux wrote:
I can't believe people are defending this nexus recall thing.
It takes away from tactics, positioning, even timings. It doesn't matter if it will be balanced, after a few months it will become like the Colossus. The "cool" factor will fade away and we'll be left with an ability that "protects" bad play and makes Protoss even more gimmicky, death ball friendly, warcraft 3 like race. I think the nexus recall thing will benefit non-deathball-styles more than deathball-styles. It helps moving out before the security of having a deathball is achieved. It enables hit-and-run guerrilla tactics. It was the same in warcraft 3 - it didn't promote deathballs, it just promoted action. It promoted moving out with a weak(er) army, trying comebacks,... It sure takes some positioning skill away! That's true. But it's not without a price. You sacrifice chrono-boosts and you have to decide on saving up energy instead of speeding up your economy/tech. So Recall is as much of a timing decision. Using Recall in an unskilled way will even wreck your timings by delaying your upgrades/saturation/... And it's opening up more tactics, so I'd say that's good, too. I think everything that promotes and enables activity pre-deathball, weakens deathballs, takes supply away from deathballs or even opens up alternative hit-and-run/multitasking styles is good and will in the end even make the game require more skill. That's why i really like the Recall and Oracle (<3) changes!
I think you've got this all wrong. First off, it's no sacrifice for Protoss to give up "chrono energy" for recall since half the time using Chrono is just like "meh whatever, I'll do it if I feel like it and remember" it's not a really very crucial thing except in the early game.
Now, you say it makes Protoss non-death ball armies better but that's not entirely true, the Protoss deathball will be just as strong and popular, only difference is now Protoss players won't need to learn how to use cheap and cost effective harass units in the midgame till they get their death ball, they can just move out any time with any composition and be completely safe with their nice little recall. Protoss players cry about no harass options but that's mostly just because they aren't very good at this game, Zealots, Warp Prisms, Blink Stalkers, Storm Drops, all can be amazing and cheap harassment units but nope, 9/10 protoss don't know how to move out out of their base unless their entire army is on 1 hotkey, and they still have the audacity to cry.
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I can't believe people actually discuss the exact values of recall.
Maybe it will be 100 energy for 4units, maybe it will require a twilight council, maybe it won't target massive, maybe a nexus will cost 600minerals or zealots will be 100hp units. who knows?
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I like recall the skill, but doing nexus recall is too much like wc3. In my personal opinion, if they want a recall skill they should bring back the Arbiter or put it on the Oracle, something like that. Putting it on a unit gives depth to the game, which, by reading the dev-blog, is what they intend to do.
Which also means that they might as well bring back a goliath-like character, some mech unit that can shoot up and down, instead of fiddling with the thor, because honestly, that mega-thor/odin is way too strong, which is why I don't mind the warhound.
Well that's just my 2 cents on the topic.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
Terrans have undergone significant changes since we talked about them at BlizzCon. We have not kept the shredder, and even the warhound is in contention. We are still experimenting with a wide range of units, particularly from the factory, which we think is a little light on options.
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The replicant has been cut.
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We have decided to keep the overseer and make the viper a pure caster.
looks like you have been in desperate need to show anything at blizzcon, guys.
If we keep the Thor, we are currently experimenting with an anti-air spider mine that would give the terrans a way to get some factory-built anti-air into small places that a Thor has trouble reaching (like near your minerals).
do you mean seeker missile?
We are also experimenting with an extremely long-ranged terran missile launcher that can be used to break siege tank lines to make terran-vs.-terran factory-based games more dynamic.
do you mean nukes?
The tempest is currently a very long-ranged aerial siege weapon that can strike both air and ground targets. This gives the protoss army some real reach to force an engagement on their terms in the end-game.
do you mean carrier?
We’re also experimenting with some nexus abilities. One example is a mass recall that allows the protoss to be more aggressive. They can move out onto the map with their slower sentry/zealot force and, if things don’t work out, recall the force back to their base if and when things go wrong.
wait do i have deja vu?
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EPT
