EPTWhat if Nexus recall stays in, but the Radius is small enough basically that the only units you're going to be able to warp home are enough to handle a reasonable drop (like at most 2 medivacs), so that with warp-in you can delay enough to bring your army (since leaving a high templar and cannons at home with maxing at 190 so you can warp-in apparently wasn't enough and protoss just took a while learning it and are basically fine now)
Developers Update : Heart of the Swarm - Page 73
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Angel_
United States1617 Posts
What if Nexus recall stays in, but the Radius is small enough basically that the only units you're going to be able to warp home are enough to handle a reasonable drop (like at most 2 medivacs), so that with warp-in you can delay enough to bring your army (since leaving a high templar and cannons at home with maxing at 190 so you can warp-in apparently wasn't enough and protoss just took a while learning it and are basically fine now) | ||
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robopork
United States511 Posts
On April 13 2012 17:07 FrogOfWar wrote: I think he makes a lot of flawed points. The Viper's blinding spell isn't a "tiny bit" different from dark swarm, it has nothing to do with it. It also doesn't "play the same" as the defiler at all since it's a flyer. Go for real spider mines instead of air spider mines? Whether its a ground or an air weapon doesn't make a difference? Swarm Host, by constantly attacking, will force the besieged player to come out and fight it, Lurker does nothing of the sort. A unit generating a constant influx of smaller units that cost nothing IS a new concept. Or an expansion on the idea of broodlings which were present, but meaningless in BW. Of course what they're trying to do is influenced by the old concepts. Everything anybody ever does in a video game (or music album, or movie, or ...) is influenced by old concepts. Also, this is a sequel. Sequels tend to be a combination of continuitiy (Zealots, Marines, Tanks, Zerglings, Mutalisks, there you go) and innovation (warp-in, Mule, Fortress, Worms, Larva Inject ...), and that's what they're supposed to be. Now some new units in itself are combinations of continuity and innovation. What the hell is wrong with that? Would you have wanted SC2 to be a completely new RTS with no Zealots, no Marines and so on, a completely new concept? That might have been interesting, but if that's what you want, I don't know why you didn't quit two years ago. They chose more continuity than that. Or do you want BW with better graphics? Go play SC2BW then. But imagine how unfathomably lame it would have been had they presented something like SC2BW as the long awaited sequel to BW. Everybody would have felt cheated. Why should SC2 either be exactly the same as BW or be completely different? If you like spider mines, why not have something different, but similar in SC2? Why do they have to be exactly the same or be left out? I don't know where this all-or-nothing alternative comes from, and I don't agree with it. Now if the specific degree and combination of innovation and continuity in SC2 doesn't suit you, okay, but you make it sound as if the whole concept was flawed. But it's just the concept of a sequel. People want some familiarity from a sequel, some reoccurring themes, but also want to see something new. SC2 offers both. Even if there was a spell similar to dark swarm, why is it such a sacrilege not to call it dark swarm? Who cares? Many SC2 players didn't even play Broodwar. It honestly feels like you looked at my post and plugged in an argument from the sc2 vs bw narrative that doesn't address what I wrote. I don't need a lecture on what a sequel is. I never said I hated sc2, or thought it was conceptually flawed just for trying to bring in new stuff. I also didn't say I thought they should take out old concepts that did make it. I certainly did not communicate all-or-nothing; I explicitly communicated that the best unit based on an abstract concept should be what makes the cut, and I don't think bw units should be off the table just because they're bw units. If recall needs a place in the game and you don't want the arbiter, great. But give me something better, or at least as good. Don't just refuse to use a good idea because that would be old school. On April 13 2012 17:16 Big J wrote: Swarm hosts are no lurkers, oracles a completly new concept, vipers are nothing like defilers, if anything they share some abilities (flying T2 caster, good at dealing with a single big unit) to BW queens - which was a unit that absolutly could need a rework. still vipers are very original. if people stopped comparing them to BW units, they would see how those units absolutly fulfill other roles. You're right, the attack functionality of the swarm host gives it a different roll. I'll grant you that. I do think you have some tunnel vision if you are honestly trying to make the claim that all of those units are 100% different from anything in the bw ancestry. It's a truism, but I'll say it anyway; a unit is more than a name and a set of spells. Maybe you know bw better and would care to explain this to me, but I just can't see how the big picture roles of the defiler and the viper have absolutely no overlap. Likewise with the oracle and arbiter, especially considering that recall is still in the game. Also note that if I had meant to say that they're the same unit recycled, I'd have nothing to be pissed about and wouldn't have commented in the first place. Instead I used the word "frankenstein", which is admittedly a little vague. | ||
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Kinjello
United States3 Posts
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entrust
Poland196 Posts
On April 14 2012 12:19 Angel_ wrote: I had a thought that I don't know if has been but might be worth discussing. What if Nexus recall stays in, but the Radius is small enough basically that the only units you're going to be able to warp home are enough to handle a reasonable drop (like at most 2 medivacs), so that with warp-in you can delay enough to bring your army (since leaving a high templar and cannons at home with maxing at 190 so you can warp-in apparently wasn't enough and protoss just took a while learning it and are basically fine now) In my eyes the recall is like replicant, either way it's gonna be terribly bad or super good. It will be standard or collect the dust. | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
warp prism, warp in a bunch of DTs, take out a base, army comes in, recall back, safe DTs ready to be morphed into archons or harass another location. its highly abusable. i dont see anyway of balancing that especially if its on a nexus. warping in DTs from a warp prism to take out a base is already strong, but to have those DTs take out the base without fear of being killed/harmed in anyway? BS not only that but this recall ability gives toss insane mobility even with immobile units like archons/immortals/etc. with mass recall there bases would be protected at all times because u can just recall ur entire army to that location and defend. this would make multi pronged atks on different bases utterly useless since toss can just recall there. abilities like that is taking out all of the risks involved in this game. a strategy game shouldnt be without risks... id rather see the mass recall changed to a cloaking field that cloaks a entire protoss base (radius of about 20 or so) for xx amount of seconds. | ||
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Archeon
3260 Posts
On April 14 2012 14:03 Ballistixz wrote: recall cant stay in, im not even a toss player and already i can think up a shit ton of ways to abuse that ability. warp prism, warp in a bunch of DTs, take out a base, army comes in, recall back, safe DTs ready to be morphed into archons or harass another location. its highly abusable. i dont see anyway of balancing that especially if its on a nexus. warping in DTs from a warp prism to take out a base is already strong, but to have those DTs take out the base without fear of being killed/harmed in anyway? BS not only that but this recall ability gives toss insane mobility even with immobile units like archons/immortals/etc. with mass recall there bases would be protected at all times because u can just recall ur entire army to that location and defend. this would make multi pronged atks on different bases utterly useless since toss can just recall there. abilities like that is taking out all of the risks involved in this game. a strategy game shouldnt be without risks... id rather see the mass recall changed to a cloaking field that cloaks a entire protoss base (radius of about 20 or so) for xx amount of seconds. why is there all the hate for nexus-recall? isnt it exactly like medivac drop with the difference, that t's dropship itself is an incredibly effective fighting unit, that marines as a high-dps-low-hp-unit is perfect for drops in difference to p's army (which is why warp-prism sucks) and that nexus recall costs at least a lot of energy? ofc it can be abused, but that's what it's good for, to give toss more options to harass with e.g. blinkstalker. currently they usually die when they try to harass, because t can hunt them down and z just surrounds them. @dts: a dropship full of 3/*upgraded marines' dps equals 3.5 3/* dts, not taking into consideration that the dts have to run to the place where they cut things down. 3.5 dts cost 875 resources, a dropship full of marines 600. with good control, you can guarantee that the dropship gets out. marines are effective in terran's basic army, while protoss use archons more like a workaround for bad situations. as far as test maps currently go, nexus-recall has the size of about 1.5 times of a forcefield, so immediately calling your whole army to every base doesnt work, but it will give toss the ability to better prevent nexus-snipes etc.. @aoe: i'd welcome a nerf of easy aoe, if there was a good alternative. everybody could see in the mkp vs parting games, that supposed aoe-counters were to some extend countered by perfect micro. great games, but let's be honest, mkp fought two games in a row mass-storms with pure bio, which is supposed to be countered by aoe. give me a good non-aoe-counter to marines and i would happily drop the colossus and the infestor. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 14 2012 14:43 Blackfeather wrote: why is there all the hate for nexus-recall? isnt it exactly like medivac drop with the difference, that t's dropship itself is an incredibly effective fighting unit, that marines as a high-dps-low-hp-unit is perfect for drops in difference to p's army (which is why warp-prism sucks) and that nexus recall costs at least a lot of energy? ofc it can be abused, but that's what it's good for, to give toss more options to harass with e.g. blinkstalker. currently they usually die when they try to harass, because t can hunt them down and z just surrounds them. @dts: a dropship full of 3/*upgraded marines' dps equals 3.5 3/* dts, not taking into consideration that the dts have to run to the place where they cut things down. 3.5 dts cost 875 resources, a dropship full of marines 600. with good control, you can guarantee that the dropship gets out. marines are effective in terran's basic army, while protoss use archons more like a workaround for bad situations. as far as test maps currently go, nexus-recall has the size of about 1.5 times of a forcefield, so immediately calling your whole army to every base doesnt work, but it will give toss the ability to better prevent nexus-snipes etc.. @aoe: i'd welcome a nerf of easy aoe, if there was a good alternative. everybody could see in the mkp vs parting games, that supposed aoe-counters were to some extend countered by perfect micro. great games, but let's be honest, mkp fought two games in a row mass-storms with pure bio, which is supposed to be countered by aoe. give me a good non-aoe-counter to marines and i would happily drop the colossus and the infestor. It is far more powerful then medivac drop. It is way way way to powerful, "oh look I caught all of protosses army out of position" "oh there it goes back to his base.". It would make toss require less skill in terms of army movement, you get caught out of position? Lets just recall it all away and it survives. That is dumb and should not be included in the game. | ||
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Disastorm
United States922 Posts
On April 14 2012 14:46 blade55555 wrote: It is far more powerful then medivac drop. It is way way way to powerful, "oh look I caught all of protosses army out of position" "oh there it goes back to his base.". It would make toss require less skill in terms of army movement, you get caught out of position? Lets just recall it all away and it survives. That is dumb and should not be included in the game. Yea having the standard recall would be insanely op on a nexus. However, if they modified the "recall" to maybe be like warp gate it might be balanced. For example they can have it where the units have to warp back to the nexus and it takes like maybe 10 seconds where the units cant move or attack but they can be attacked. That way it can't really be abused in a battle but can still work effectively outside of combat. | ||
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SuperYo1000
United States880 Posts
On April 14 2012 14:43 Blackfeather wrote: why is there all the hate for nexus-recall? isnt it exactly like medivac drop with the difference, that t's dropship itself is an incredibly effective fighting unit, that marines as a high-dps-low-hp-unit is perfect for drops in difference to p's army (which is why warp-prism sucks) and that nexus recall costs at least a lot of energy? ofc it can be abused, but that's what it's good for, to give toss more options to harass with e.g. blinkstalker. currently they usually die when they try to harass, because t can hunt them down and z just surrounds them. @dts: a dropship full of 3/*upgraded marines' dps equals 3.5 3/* dts, not taking into consideration that the dts have to run to the place where they cut things down. 3.5 dts cost 875 resources, a dropship full of marines 600. with good control, you can guarantee that the dropship gets out. marines are effective in terran's basic army, while protoss use archons more like a workaround for bad situations. as far as test maps currently go, nexus-recall has the size of about 1.5 times of a forcefield, so immediately calling your whole army to every base doesnt work, but it will give toss the ability to better prevent nexus-snipes etc.. @aoe: i'd welcome a nerf of easy aoe, if there was a good alternative. everybody could see in the mkp vs parting games, that supposed aoe-counters were to some extend countered by perfect micro. great games, but let's be honest, mkp fought two games in a row mass-storms with pure bio, which is supposed to be countered by aoe. give me a good non-aoe-counter to marines and i would happily drop the colossus and the infestor. so much truth here especially the AOE section. I remember that game and thinking "wth kind of counter is that" and Im in the same boat as you. Give me a late game non aoe unit that counters a bio ball and I will gladly accept a protoss aoe nerf | ||
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cactusjack914
United States183 Posts
Yea having the standard recall would be insanely op on a nexus. However, if they modified the "recall" to maybe be like warp gate it might be balanced. For example they can have it where the units have to warp back to the nexus and it takes like maybe 10 seconds where the units cant move or attack but they can be attacked. That way it can't really be abused in a battle but can still work effectively outside of combat. i definitely hear your point. but still, if you could recall dt's back to your base, what makes you think the 10 second idle time will make it balanced. does that mean as T i should i keep idle drops ready right after a recall? it still doesn't really make sense. "oh shit this small army engaged is about a second a way from a bad positioned engagement, ok fuck it, recall. you're drop wasn't timed perfect? yea, didnt think so." | ||
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blinkingangels
105 Posts
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Falling
Canada11367 Posts
On April 14 2012 14:43 Blackfeather wrote: why is there all the hate for nexus-recall? isnt it exactly like medivac drop with the difference, that t's dropship itself is an incredibly effective fighting unit, that marines as a high-dps-low-hp-unit is perfect for drops in difference to p's army (which is why warp-prism sucks) and that nexus recall costs at least a lot of energy? ofc it can be abused, but that's what it's good for, to give toss more options to harass with e.g. blinkstalker. currently they usually die when they try to harass, because t can hunt them down and z just surrounds them. The difference is the medivac is a unit that can be detected and killed as it's incoming. Not only that, but you have the fun interaction of chasing drops away and seeing whether it will escape or not. Base recall is not detectable and can't be stopped unless you are Nexus sniping. Now you see the army, now you don't. Just cut the mothership, cut the base recall and bring back the arbiter. We're just beating around the bush as it is. Base recall more reminds of those super abilities in SupCom2. Like these weird factory things that instead of building units properly, turns the factory into a giant cannon and fires the units wherever you want across the map. Edit. And I know people hate any reference to BW, but I'm seeing the same ability recycled multiple times in less interesting ways. I feel this is relevant: There are two ways to touch your nose. One is to just touch it directly from the front and the other is from behind your head and around. There's a few abilities I feel are doing just this. | ||
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
On April 14 2012 14:03 Ballistixz wrote: not only that but this recall ability gives toss insane mobility even with immobile units like archons/immortals/etc. with mass recall there bases would be protected at all times because u can just recall ur entire army to that location and defend. this would make multi pronged atks on different bases utterly useless since toss can just recall there. Actually the only immobile unit that protoss has in the usual army composition is  HT with speed of 1,875.Archons has movement speed of 2,8125 while colossus and immortal have movement speed of 2,25 which considered to be normal movement speed. | ||
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entrust
Poland196 Posts
On April 14 2012 15:43 Mehukannu wrote: Actually the only immobile unit that protoss has in the usual army composition is HT with speed of 1,875.Archons has movement speed of 2,8125 while colossus and immortal have movement speed of 2,25 which considered to be normal movement speed.Unit mobility is not only about movement speed, hydras are 2.25 and they are widely considered slow. | ||
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Optimism
United Kingdom28 Posts
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supernovamaniac
United States3047 Posts
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
On April 14 2012 16:09 entrust wrote: Unit mobility is not only about movement speed, hydras are 2.25 and they are widely considered slow. Well yes, but movement speed is really big part of it. Especially when most people build ground units instead of fliers. Still, people are used to hydras being fast units due to BW and when compared to faster units in zerg army makes them look even more slower than they actually are (I think the size and perhaps even the movement animation might make hydralisk appear slower than they really are, though I could be wrong). They are even the same speed as infestors, but you don't hear zergs complaining it being slow. I do know that infestors are so much better in most situations to make up for that speed than hydras, but it should also be noted that it isn't only about the speed that makes people consider hydras a bad unit, especially when compared to other alternatives. | ||
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Splynn
United States225 Posts
On April 14 2012 12:19 Angel_ wrote: I had a thought that I don't know if has been but might be worth discussing. What if Nexus recall stays in, but the Radius is small enough basically that the only units you're going to be able to warp home are enough to handle a reasonable drop (like at most 2 medivacs), so that with warp-in you can delay enough to bring your army (since leaving a high templar and cannons at home with maxing at 190 so you can warp-in apparently wasn't enough and protoss just took a while learning it and are basically fine now) I mentioned something like this a while ago. And I agree with you. Nexus recall isn't immediately OP; it just gives protoss a way of committing to an engagement without being completely all-in due to slow units. If you cast nexus recall and it is the radius of a force field, you'll probably get 4-5 units back. So early-mid, you're grabbing back a few of your sentries. Late game, probably more expensive things. I don't think I like the idea of being able to grab back non-gateway units. Teleporting your colossi back after being dumb with them sounds like it allows protoss to just be an idiot. The only issue I can really think of that might be problematic is that it will be used similar to KA... I don't need to be smart with my templar. And I can recall storms anywhere. That's honestly what I'd use it for... moving psionic storm around the map. But no, it's not too powerful. And whoever made the poll that said "yes but needs to be tweaked". Tweaked from what? We have no idea what the current incarnation of it is, so how can we know what it will be tweaked from? It's definitely not going to be the mothership recall... way too large radius. But a smaller radius isn't immediately broken. I like the concept of it. People complain about protoss turtling up to three base with high tech? That's because if protoss moves out to engage and loses expensive units in the early-mid game, protoss doesn't have the infrastructure or income to rebuild in time. It's a design flaw that this recall might help fix. Maybe. I'd like to at least see it first. | ||
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sweetbabyjesus
Denmark168 Posts
On April 14 2012 18:08 Splynn wrote: I mentioned something like this a while ago. And I agree with you. Nexus recall isn't immediately OP; it just gives protoss a way of committing to an engagement without being completely all-in due to slow units. If you cast nexus recall and it is the radius of a force field, you'll probably get 4-5 units back. So early-mid, you're grabbing back a few of your sentries. Late game, probably more expensive things. I don't think I like the idea of being able to grab back non-gateway units. Teleporting your colossi back after being dumb with them sounds like it allows protoss to just be an idiot. The only issue I can really think of that might be problematic is that it will be used similar to KA... I don't need to be smart with my templar. And I can recall storms anywhere. That's honestly what I'd use it for... moving psionic storm around the map. But no, it's not too powerful. And whoever made the poll that said "yes but needs to be tweaked". Tweaked from what? We have no idea what the current incarnation of it is, so how can we know what it will be tweaked from? It's definitely not going to be the mothership recall... way too large radius. But a smaller radius isn't immediately broken. I like the concept of it. People complain about protoss turtling up to three base with high tech? That's because if protoss moves out to engage and loses expensive units in the early-mid game, protoss doesn't have the infrastructure or income to rebuild in time. It's a design flaw that this recall might help fix. Maybe. I'd like to at least see it first. QTF. Let's see it before we pass judgement. | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
On April 14 2012 18:15 sweetbabyjesus wrote: QTF. Let's see it before we pass judgement. Let's not see it. We already know it will be bad. I'm not even talking balance, I'm just talking game interest and spectating. A super bailout ability that eliminates risk is not interesting for anyone. Why would blizzard not give recall to a new flying unit so it remains a versatile spell (offensive or defensive)? Because that would mean remaking an old unit, the Arbiter, something blizzard is just too proud to do after he had to keep and neuter all those old BW units. Instead, they'd rather spend months of their time thinking of ways to replace the carrier with something that would be worse and less adored by fans. | ||
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