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On April 14 2012 06:32 Berailfor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 06:29 deviator wrote:
IMO, Terran needs more AOE units. Protoss has Colossi and Zerg has Banes. And Hellions aren't that great of a unit, the battle hellion has shit range. They NEED the Shredder to deal with chargelots and mass ling The shredder never worked with your own units in range anyway. And mass lings is easily countered with tank marine and chargelots is countered just with emps and kiting. It might be tougher to execute in lower leagues but neither of those things pros have a problem with.
Well Terran has no static defenses that hit ground. They need the shredder to do that.
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I dont know why they just dont give Nexus the shield regen ability with their energy, like maybe it gets researched at cybernetics core or unlocked with twilight council, but the recall seems to be a bit of a fail safe against too much.
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I don't know what to say about the tempest. If I'm understanding right they're making it into what the carrier should be, but they're not saying whether or not theyre going to keep the carrier. So...fixing the carrier, giving it a new model, and telling people it's new content and we should like it? I don't get it.
I thought the shredder was a bad concept for needed idea. As people start to really multi-prong more it's hard to face that terran have no static defense to slow things down. I know there's a line between having a mirror of everything in each race and having things you just need even if they are functionally different; I think static defense is something all races need. They have buildings they can place strategically or move around. If you put a bunker surrounded by depots it doesn't actually slow anything down unless it's a tiny run-by...and it costs supply. It'd be nice to see terran get an aoe that doesn't kill their own units, but really I'd be happy for any form of static defense. The current model is "well place some sensor towers, and don't move out unless you're absolutely positive they can't drop you and you're willing to base trade if you need to.
I didn't see the corrupter mentioned, but they did mention the drain health (for energy instead of minerals) for a different unit (the overseer?). Having your second primary caster being the one that makes your supply is kind of funky to me. I think it'd be interesting if zerg had a t3 caster rather than a second lair tech one, but o well.
Overall I'm pretty happy that they're restricting the changes. I think it's awesome for casuals to get new content, and it's absolutely essential when you're trying to appeal to every audience at once, but too much just completely murders the actual competitive scene, and when you're planning on multiple expansions every few years that's just icky.
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On April 14 2012 06:39 Berailfor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 06:28 tdt wrote:On April 14 2012 06:16 blinkingangels wrote:On April 14 2012 05:50 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 05:46 blinkingangels wrote:On April 14 2012 05:29 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 05:17 tdt wrote:On April 14 2012 04:43 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On April 14 2012 04:39 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 04:29 kcdc wrote:
Recall on nexus would be ridiculously powerful. Terran would never win again. Zealot pressure would be insanely powerful vs Z. As a Protoss player, it'd be kind of cool for a while, but I just don't see Protoss town portal making into the game. Well considering the guy above and I are actually providing specific examples of why it would be good. Can you give specific examples that would make it a broken ability? I'd be happy to hear it and rebuttal. Let's starts with what you already said. Terran would never win again? What scenario would cause that to happen? And zealot pressure better against Z? You have to use all your chronoboost on WG and +1 just to hit that timing at a decent time. There's no way you'd have recall by then. And even if you did why would it be more powerful? They won't have roach speed so you already can retreat. And even if you couldn't you save a few zealots? At the cost of what? A good amount of probes? Yyeeeaaahhh I'll take the probes. But like I said you won't have the energy anyway for zealot pressure because ALL your chronoboost is allocated to hit a specific timing anyway. Yeah, I don't think people are thinking this through. A lot of folks are responding to this idea as though Blizzard were proposing a free, infinite use Scroll of Town Portal for Protoss. It's going to require pooling chrono energy, which will make it essentially useless in the early game, since any attack you'd want to pull back with it would come significantly later if you had the energy to use the recall. And Blizzard hasn't said what the unit selection radius is going to be: I wouldn't be surprised if it were significantly smaller than the Mothership's current Mass Recall ability, in which case it would only be good for retrieving harassing forces and wouldn't necessarily be able to rescue a whole army that was caught out of position. Well imagine warping and or walking your army or part of it right into terrans/zergs main while they are in middle of map then devestating production and they have two choices. 1) come back for you, you'll be gone, damage done w/o reprocussion they are way behind now. 2) Attack your main, you'll be there, warped in, damage done to them still at thier base and none to you. It doesnt cost a mothership and her buildings to do nor can it be targeted like a mothship. See the problem? Okay I'm replying to you and blinkingangels @you Against Zerg they always know where your army is via having constant control of the Xel nagas unless the Protoss is pushing out and they can position adequately. Against Terran if you do a counterattack like that there's no way you'll get into their main (pushing past their wall) before they close in on you. And the Protoss can't recall his whole army unless he has like 3 bases with that much energy. And if that's the case then he probably is doing pretty badly not chronoing robos, upgrades, etc. And so as a result you'll naturally be up on him anyway. Point is. It's not gonna happen unless the Terran or Zerg seriously screws up. @blinkingangel it doesn't work like that. You 1. Make it sound like we have infinite recalls and we dont use any CB on other things. And 2. It isn't catching the opponent off guard when you have proper positioning against the toss. 3. You can capitalize on the fact that i just did a retreat to take another base, do other things that require your APM. And finally 4. Your forgetting that if I use 3 recalls to get my whole army out of a tight spot. Well I better hope I was on your side of the map. Otherwise 1/3rd of my army is at each base and you can easily capitalize that and snipe a base because you 100% KNOW I'm spread out. Also. If I want to CB AND maintain recalls I'm going to have to individually use CB once on each nexus as normally it will deplete 1 nexus before using another nexii's energy. 1. No I don't, it's 2 mass recalls per nexus. In a late game scenario where toss has 4 bases, that's 8 mass recalls and 8 CBs at full energy. By the time you use 3 recalls, and then want to use it again, the energy will basically be replenished again. Toss will have plenty of energy for mass recall and chronoboost. 2. Yes it is, depending on the situation. If you catch toss in a choke etc. Not like it's important how you define it anyways. 3. Not even sure what your point is. Terran can take a base before an engagement and macro as well. Toss having just recalled doesn't change that. 4. Once again, 2 recalls per base. That's 2 at your main, at your natural. On most maps toss will easily be able to recall in a way where they can defend their 4th. Think of a map like daybreak for example, where the 4th is a 10 second walk from the natural. It is dependent on previous positioning and expansions, but toss can expand in a way that is favorable for mass recall. I also don't see how that last point matters. Its hardly any extra micro. Push 5, click nexus, CB, repeat. Overall, this mechanic is way too forgiving for protoss. It adds nothing to the game in terms of skill. If people complained about supply drop being too forgiving, they should throw a fit about this. It allows protoss not to care about being maxed and defending drops on their production, they don't have to worry about bad positioning or unfavorable engagements, and they can defend expos even better. Its really just a badly designed mechanic overall. Nexii have 100 energy, recall costs 75. Do the math. And talking about your rebuttal #3, my point is that you can capitalize on the fact that you know I'm now at my base. Too used to seeing 200 for OC energy. The point still holds - 4 mass recalls, 4 CBs. And like I said, the energy will have plenty of time to recharge. Also, we can't forget how great this would be for offensive use. Protoss will have free reign over terran expansions. They go to attack an expo, terran goes to defend, and they just warp away. If terran goes to attack their expo, they can still leave. If terran goes for a base trade, guess what, they just warp back home. AND terran has been begging for mech viability in TvP. Guess what this ability practically shuts down in many ways? Mech. Have fun trying to defend expos when you have an army as immobile as mech. By the time you get to your expo to defend toss will be long gone and so will your expansion. And the best part is they could recall to the other side of the map to attack your expos there, depending on the map. Toss will be able to proxy nexus late game just like terran masses OCs late game. This ability alone could completely shut down mech viablity late game. I've only been talking about offense. Defense isnt really an issue. We already have warp in cannons and HTs. Yes it would strengthen it further but nothing like it's early game offensive ability hit and warp squads. I bet you'd see warp nexis like zerg builds macro hatches it would be so good. The offensive capability will have some uses. But your explaining a VERY specific scenario. Like this one. Your way out of position so I (the protoss) guaranteed will get your base no matter what. Then I haven't been chronoing anything on 2 nexus so I have 75 energy on both to warp my midgame army out. If I had only 1 recall it wouldn't be worth it for me to recall because I'd only get half my army. Don't forget you were so far out of position (I don't know why) that I got your base for free. Also I might not want to recall because generally thirds are in good spots to utilize forcefields to their best effect. Maybe you should just be in a good position that I can't don't that. And then me not spending my 75 energy on chronoing robo units, workers, and upgrades will be a BAD THING instead of a good thing. Especially if I had 150 energy saved up to double recall and then I couldn't even do it because you were positioned properly. Oh wait, midgame I'd never have that much energy saved up because my gameplan isn't to rely on my opponent playing badly and being out of position.
If he's anywhere but at home he's out of position in this scenario though. The main problem is everyone gets out of position at least enough to kill one of thier buildings, even a pros, but you can't kill that building without losing some/all of your force as army comes in to deal with you. TP removes that laibility as you simply warp out. If he decides to go to your base, you continue to damage his until he gets close then warp back to protect you base. win/win
A extra nexi, lets call it a warp nexi, takes care of your chrono worries and that's a lot cheaper/faster/earlier than getting a MS.
This TP can be nerfed by making area very small area or # units that can be warped but then it's useless for what Blizz wants it for, defense of protoss base.
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Yeah, I would like if the Viper was hive tech, and stronger. The Infestor is like the Queen in BW in terms of tech level (requirement for hive,) so the viper should be hive tech like the Defiler, imo. I think the overseer should stay weak, even removing contaminate (I think the oracle got something like it,) and giving it only changeling, maybe with a cooldown instead of energy. It really shouldn't be a spellcaster, imo.
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On April 14 2012 06:51 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 06:39 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 06:28 tdt wrote:On April 14 2012 06:16 blinkingangels wrote:On April 14 2012 05:50 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 05:46 blinkingangels wrote:On April 14 2012 05:29 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 05:17 tdt wrote:On April 14 2012 04:43 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On April 14 2012 04:39 Berailfor wrote:
[quote]
Well considering the guy above and I are actually providing specific examples of why it would be good. Can you give specific examples that would make it a broken ability? I'd be happy to hear it and rebuttal. Let's starts with what you already said. Terran would never win again? What scenario would cause that to happen? And zealot pressure better against Z? You have to use all your chronoboost on WG and +1 just to hit that timing at a decent time. There's no way you'd have recall by then. And even if you did why would it be more powerful? They won't have roach speed so you already can retreat. And even if you couldn't you save a few zealots? At the cost of what? A good amount of probes? Yyeeeaaahhh I'll take the probes. But like I said you won't have the energy anyway for zealot pressure because ALL your chronoboost is allocated to hit a specific timing anyway. Yeah, I don't think people are thinking this through. A lot of folks are responding to this idea as though Blizzard were proposing a free, infinite use Scroll of Town Portal for Protoss. It's going to require pooling chrono energy, which will make it essentially useless in the early game, since any attack you'd want to pull back with it would come significantly later if you had the energy to use the recall. And Blizzard hasn't said what the unit selection radius is going to be: I wouldn't be surprised if it were significantly smaller than the Mothership's current Mass Recall ability, in which case it would only be good for retrieving harassing forces and wouldn't necessarily be able to rescue a whole army that was caught out of position. Well imagine warping and or walking your army or part of it right into terrans/zergs main while they are in middle of map then devestating production and they have two choices. 1) come back for you, you'll be gone, damage done w/o reprocussion they are way behind now. 2) Attack your main, you'll be there, warped in, damage done to them still at thier base and none to you. It doesnt cost a mothership and her buildings to do nor can it be targeted like a mothship. See the problem? Okay I'm replying to you and blinkingangels @you Against Zerg they always know where your army is via having constant control of the Xel nagas unless the Protoss is pushing out and they can position adequately. Against Terran if you do a counterattack like that there's no way you'll get into their main (pushing past their wall) before they close in on you. And the Protoss can't recall his whole army unless he has like 3 bases with that much energy. And if that's the case then he probably is doing pretty badly not chronoing robos, upgrades, etc. And so as a result you'll naturally be up on him anyway. Point is. It's not gonna happen unless the Terran or Zerg seriously screws up. @blinkingangel it doesn't work like that. You 1. Make it sound like we have infinite recalls and we dont use any CB on other things. And 2. It isn't catching the opponent off guard when you have proper positioning against the toss. 3. You can capitalize on the fact that i just did a retreat to take another base, do other things that require your APM. And finally 4. Your forgetting that if I use 3 recalls to get my whole army out of a tight spot. Well I better hope I was on your side of the map. Otherwise 1/3rd of my army is at each base and you can easily capitalize that and snipe a base because you 100% KNOW I'm spread out. Also. If I want to CB AND maintain recalls I'm going to have to individually use CB once on each nexus as normally it will deplete 1 nexus before using another nexii's energy. 1. No I don't, it's 2 mass recalls per nexus. In a late game scenario where toss has 4 bases, that's 8 mass recalls and 8 CBs at full energy. By the time you use 3 recalls, and then want to use it again, the energy will basically be replenished again. Toss will have plenty of energy for mass recall and chronoboost. 2. Yes it is, depending on the situation. If you catch toss in a choke etc. Not like it's important how you define it anyways. 3. Not even sure what your point is. Terran can take a base before an engagement and macro as well. Toss having just recalled doesn't change that. 4. Once again, 2 recalls per base. That's 2 at your main, at your natural. On most maps toss will easily be able to recall in a way where they can defend their 4th. Think of a map like daybreak for example, where the 4th is a 10 second walk from the natural. It is dependent on previous positioning and expansions, but toss can expand in a way that is favorable for mass recall. I also don't see how that last point matters. Its hardly any extra micro. Push 5, click nexus, CB, repeat. Overall, this mechanic is way too forgiving for protoss. It adds nothing to the game in terms of skill. If people complained about supply drop being too forgiving, they should throw a fit about this. It allows protoss not to care about being maxed and defending drops on their production, they don't have to worry about bad positioning or unfavorable engagements, and they can defend expos even better. Its really just a badly designed mechanic overall. Nexii have 100 energy, recall costs 75. Do the math. And talking about your rebuttal #3, my point is that you can capitalize on the fact that you know I'm now at my base. Too used to seeing 200 for OC energy. The point still holds - 4 mass recalls, 4 CBs. And like I said, the energy will have plenty of time to recharge. Also, we can't forget how great this would be for offensive use. Protoss will have free reign over terran expansions. They go to attack an expo, terran goes to defend, and they just warp away. If terran goes to attack their expo, they can still leave. If terran goes for a base trade, guess what, they just warp back home. AND terran has been begging for mech viability in TvP. Guess what this ability practically shuts down in many ways? Mech. Have fun trying to defend expos when you have an army as immobile as mech. By the time you get to your expo to defend toss will be long gone and so will your expansion. And the best part is they could recall to the other side of the map to attack your expos there, depending on the map. Toss will be able to proxy nexus late game just like terran masses OCs late game. This ability alone could completely shut down mech viablity late game. I've only been talking about offense. Defense isnt really an issue. We already have warp in cannons and HTs. Yes it would strengthen it further but nothing like it's early game offensive ability hit and warp squads. I bet you'd see warp nexis like zerg builds macro hatches it would be so good. The offensive capability will have some uses. But your explaining a VERY specific scenario. Like this one. Your way out of position so I (the protoss) guaranteed will get your base no matter what. Then I haven't been chronoing anything on 2 nexus so I have 75 energy on both to warp my midgame army out. If I had only 1 recall it wouldn't be worth it for me to recall because I'd only get half my army. Don't forget you were so far out of position (I don't know why) that I got your base for free. Also I might not want to recall because generally thirds are in good spots to utilize forcefields to their best effect. Maybe you should just be in a good position that I can't don't that. And then me not spending my 75 energy on chronoing robo units, workers, and upgrades will be a BAD THING instead of a good thing. Especially if I had 150 energy saved up to double recall and then I couldn't even do it because you were positioned properly. Oh wait, midgame I'd never have that much energy saved up because my gameplan isn't to rely on my opponent playing badly and being out of position. If he's anywhere but at home he's out of position in this scenario though. The main problem is everyone gets out of position at least enough to kill one of thier buildings, even a pros, but you can't kill that building without losing some/all of your force as army comes in to deal with you. TP removes that laibility as you simply warp out. If he decides to go to your base, you continue to damage his until he gets close then warp back to protect you base. win/win A extra nexi, lets call it a warp nexi, takes care of your chrono worries and that's a lot cheaper/faster/earlier than getting a MS. This TP can be nerfed by making area very small area or # units that can be warped but then it's useless for what Blizz wants it for, defense of protoss base.
Okay midgame if I'm waltzing towards your base confidentally (without HoTS) what are you thinking? 6gate? Immortal allin? Builds that are ALLIN. You better be at your base when your trying to defend that. And if you see my army one time you'll be able to get in position easily. And Terran all the time stims in and kills the third and leaves with no losses I dunno what your talking about.
And like I said. The ONLY way it's viable is if I have 150 energy saved up. And I WON'T because my gameplan is not relying on you being out of position. I'd way rather spend that chronoboost on my robo, workers, and upgrades. If I went to your base with 150 energy banked midgame and wasn't able to use the recall strat because you were positioned properly then that's so much chronoboost that could have been earlier workers, higher immortal/observer/colossus numbers or halfway through +2 +2 when I haven't even started +2 +2 because I was banking chrono. So yes if I caught you far enough out of position to justify it then awesome, if not then it's a real shitty scenario. So I'd rather just spend that CB and not have my strategy relying on the Terran being out of position (which he won't be if he's any good.)
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On April 14 2012 06:45 Angel_ wrote:
I don't know what to say about the tempest. If I'm understanding right they're making it into what the carrier should be, but they're not saying whether or not theyre going to keep the carrier. So...fixing the carrier, giving it a new model, and telling people it's new content and we should like it? I don't get it.
I thought the shredder was a bad concept for needed idea. As people start to really multi-prong more it's hard to face that terran have no static defense to slow things down. I know there's a line between having a mirror of everything in each race and having things you just need even if they are functionally different; I think static defense is something all races need. They have buildings they can place strategically or move around. If you put a bunker surrounded by depots it doesn't actually slow anything down unless it's a tiny run-by...and it costs supply. It'd be nice to see terran get an aoe that doesn't kill their own units, but really I'd be happy for any form of static defense. The current model is "well place some sensor towers, and don't move out unless you're absolutely positive they can't drop you and you're willing to base trade if you need to.
I didn't see the corrupter mentioned, but they did mention the drain health (for energy instead of minerals) for a different unit (the overseer?). Having your second primary caster being the one that makes your supply is kind of funky to me. I think it'd be interesting if zerg had a t3 caster rather than a second lair tech one, but o well.
Overall I'm pretty happy that they're restricting the changes. I think it's awesome for casuals to get new content, and it's absolutely essential when you're trying to appeal to every audience at once, but too much just completely murders the actual competitive scene, and when you're planning on multiple expansions every few years that's just icky.
Like they need it? a couple-three seige tanks, sim city and AOE missle launchers give terran best base defense in the game comparitivly. I'd like just tanks as protoss.
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On April 14 2012 07:09 Berailfor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 06:51 tdt wrote:On April 14 2012 06:39 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 06:28 tdt wrote:On April 14 2012 06:16 blinkingangels wrote:On April 14 2012 05:50 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 05:46 blinkingangels wrote:On April 14 2012 05:29 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 05:17 tdt wrote:On April 14 2012 04:43 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
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Yeah, I don't think people are thinking this through. A lot of folks are responding to this idea as though Blizzard were proposing a free, infinite use Scroll of Town Portal for Protoss. It's going to require pooling chrono energy, which will make it essentially useless in the early game, since any attack you'd want to pull back with it would come significantly later if you had the energy to use the recall. And Blizzard hasn't said what the unit selection radius is going to be: I wouldn't be surprised if it were significantly smaller than the Mothership's current Mass Recall ability, in which case it would only be good for retrieving harassing forces and wouldn't necessarily be able to rescue a whole army that was caught out of position. Well imagine warping and or walking your army or part of it right into terrans/zergs main while they are in middle of map then devestating production and they have two choices. 1) come back for you, you'll be gone, damage done w/o reprocussion they are way behind now. 2) Attack your main, you'll be there, warped in, damage done to them still at thier base and none to you. It doesnt cost a mothership and her buildings to do nor can it be targeted like a mothship. See the problem? Okay I'm replying to you and blinkingangels @you Against Zerg they always know where your army is via having constant control of the Xel nagas unless the Protoss is pushing out and they can position adequately. Against Terran if you do a counterattack like that there's no way you'll get into their main (pushing past their wall) before they close in on you. And the Protoss can't recall his whole army unless he has like 3 bases with that much energy. And if that's the case then he probably is doing pretty badly not chronoing robos, upgrades, etc. And so as a result you'll naturally be up on him anyway. Point is. It's not gonna happen unless the Terran or Zerg seriously screws up. @blinkingangel it doesn't work like that. You 1. Make it sound like we have infinite recalls and we dont use any CB on other things. And 2. It isn't catching the opponent off guard when you have proper positioning against the toss. 3. You can capitalize on the fact that i just did a retreat to take another base, do other things that require your APM. And finally 4. Your forgetting that if I use 3 recalls to get my whole army out of a tight spot. Well I better hope I was on your side of the map. Otherwise 1/3rd of my army is at each base and you can easily capitalize that and snipe a base because you 100% KNOW I'm spread out. Also. If I want to CB AND maintain recalls I'm going to have to individually use CB once on each nexus as normally it will deplete 1 nexus before using another nexii's energy. 1. No I don't, it's 2 mass recalls per nexus. In a late game scenario where toss has 4 bases, that's 8 mass recalls and 8 CBs at full energy. By the time you use 3 recalls, and then want to use it again, the energy will basically be replenished again. Toss will have plenty of energy for mass recall and chronoboost. 2. Yes it is, depending on the situation. If you catch toss in a choke etc. Not like it's important how you define it anyways. 3. Not even sure what your point is. Terran can take a base before an engagement and macro as well. Toss having just recalled doesn't change that. 4. Once again, 2 recalls per base. That's 2 at your main, at your natural. On most maps toss will easily be able to recall in a way where they can defend their 4th. Think of a map like daybreak for example, where the 4th is a 10 second walk from the natural. It is dependent on previous positioning and expansions, but toss can expand in a way that is favorable for mass recall. I also don't see how that last point matters. Its hardly any extra micro. Push 5, click nexus, CB, repeat. Overall, this mechanic is way too forgiving for protoss. It adds nothing to the game in terms of skill. If people complained about supply drop being too forgiving, they should throw a fit about this. It allows protoss not to care about being maxed and defending drops on their production, they don't have to worry about bad positioning or unfavorable engagements, and they can defend expos even better. Its really just a badly designed mechanic overall. Nexii have 100 energy, recall costs 75. Do the math. And talking about your rebuttal #3, my point is that you can capitalize on the fact that you know I'm now at my base. Too used to seeing 200 for OC energy. The point still holds - 4 mass recalls, 4 CBs. And like I said, the energy will have plenty of time to recharge. Also, we can't forget how great this would be for offensive use. Protoss will have free reign over terran expansions. They go to attack an expo, terran goes to defend, and they just warp away. If terran goes to attack their expo, they can still leave. If terran goes for a base trade, guess what, they just warp back home. AND terran has been begging for mech viability in TvP. Guess what this ability practically shuts down in many ways? Mech. Have fun trying to defend expos when you have an army as immobile as mech. By the time you get to your expo to defend toss will be long gone and so will your expansion. And the best part is they could recall to the other side of the map to attack your expos there, depending on the map. Toss will be able to proxy nexus late game just like terran masses OCs late game. This ability alone could completely shut down mech viablity late game. I've only been talking about offense. Defense isnt really an issue. We already have warp in cannons and HTs. Yes it would strengthen it further but nothing like it's early game offensive ability hit and warp squads. I bet you'd see warp nexis like zerg builds macro hatches it would be so good. The offensive capability will have some uses. But your explaining a VERY specific scenario. Like this one. Your way out of position so I (the protoss) guaranteed will get your base no matter what. Then I haven't been chronoing anything on 2 nexus so I have 75 energy on both to warp my midgame army out. If I had only 1 recall it wouldn't be worth it for me to recall because I'd only get half my army. Don't forget you were so far out of position (I don't know why) that I got your base for free. Also I might not want to recall because generally thirds are in good spots to utilize forcefields to their best effect. Maybe you should just be in a good position that I can't don't that. And then me not spending my 75 energy on chronoing robo units, workers, and upgrades will be a BAD THING instead of a good thing. Especially if I had 150 energy saved up to double recall and then I couldn't even do it because you were positioned properly. Oh wait, midgame I'd never have that much energy saved up because my gameplan isn't to rely on my opponent playing badly and being out of position. If he's anywhere but at home he's out of position in this scenario though. The main problem is everyone gets out of position at least enough to kill one of thier buildings, even a pros, but you can't kill that building without losing some/all of your force as army comes in to deal with you. TP removes that laibility as you simply warp out. If he decides to go to your base, you continue to damage his until he gets close then warp back to protect you base. win/win A extra nexi, lets call it a warp nexi, takes care of your chrono worries and that's a lot cheaper/faster/earlier than getting a MS. This TP can be nerfed by making area very small area or # units that can be warped but then it's useless for what Blizz wants it for, defense of protoss base. Okay midgame if I'm waltzing towards your base confidentally (without HoTS) what are you thinking? 6gate? Immortal allin? Builds that are ALLIN. You better be at your base when your trying to defend that. And if you see my army one time you'll be able to get in position easily. And Terran all the time stims in and kills the third and leaves with no losses I dunno what your talking about. And like I said. The ONLY way it's viable is if I have 150 energy saved up. And I WON'T because my gameplan is not relying on you being out of position. I'd way rather spend that chronoboost on my robo, workers, and upgrades. If I went to your base with 150 energy banked midgame and wasn't able to use the recall strat because you were positioned properly then that's so much chronoboost that could have been earlier workers, higher immortal/observer/colossus numbers or halfway through +2 +2 when I haven't even started +2 +2 because I was banking chrono. So yes if I caught you far enough out of position to justify it then awesome, if not then it's a real shitty scenario. So I'd rather just spend that CB and not have my strategy relying on the Terran being out of position (which he won't be if he's any good.)
If 75 energy is a TP and you're chronoboosting, you're screwing up. Just build a second robo if you need extra production.
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On April 14 2012 06:43 deviator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 06:32 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 06:29 deviator wrote:
IMO, Terran needs more AOE units. Protoss has Colossi and Zerg has Banes. And Hellions aren't that great of a unit, the battle hellion has shit range. They NEED the Shredder to deal with chargelots and mass ling The shredder never worked with your own units in range anyway. And mass lings is easily countered with tank marine and chargelots is countered just with emps and kiting. It might be tougher to execute in lower leagues but neither of those things pros have a problem with. Well Terran has no static defenses that hit ground. They need the shredder to do that.
Bunkers and PFs O.O? Do you even play SC2?
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They are insisting on cutting carrier... weird 
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On April 14 2012 06:43 deviator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 06:32 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 06:29 deviator wrote:
IMO, Terran needs more AOE units. Protoss has Colossi and Zerg has Banes. And Hellions aren't that great of a unit, the battle hellion has shit range. They NEED the Shredder to deal with chargelots and mass ling The shredder never worked with your own units in range anyway. And mass lings is easily countered with tank marine and chargelots is countered just with emps and kiting. It might be tougher to execute in lower leagues but neither of those things pros have a problem with. Well Terran has no static defenses that hit ground. They need the shredder to do that.
lets say we ignore the existence of bunkers and planetary fortresses, terran still have tanks which is a form of static defense. and if we use the argument: tanks cost supply, thus they are not static defense. then one can also use the argument: shredders cost supply, thus they are not static defense.
so no matter how you think about it, its one of these situations:
a) shredders are static defense that can attack ground, and so is tanks.
b) shredders are not static defense that can attack ground, and neither is tanks
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On April 14 2012 07:14 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 07:09 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 06:51 tdt wrote:On April 14 2012 06:39 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 06:28 tdt wrote:On April 14 2012 06:16 blinkingangels wrote:On April 14 2012 05:50 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 05:46 blinkingangels wrote:On April 14 2012 05:29 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 05:17 tdt wrote:
[quote]
Well imagine warping and or walking your army or part of it right into terrans/zergs main while they are in middle of map then devestating production and they have two choices. 1) come back for you, you'll be gone, damage done w/o reprocussion they are way behind now. 2) Attack your main, you'll be there, warped in, damage done to them still at thier base and none to you.
It doesnt cost a mothership and her buildings to do nor can it be targeted like a mothship. See the problem? Okay I'm replying to you and blinkingangels @you Against Zerg they always know where your army is via having constant control of the Xel nagas unless the Protoss is pushing out and they can position adequately. Against Terran if you do a counterattack like that there's no way you'll get into their main (pushing past their wall) before they close in on you. And the Protoss can't recall his whole army unless he has like 3 bases with that much energy. And if that's the case then he probably is doing pretty badly not chronoing robos, upgrades, etc. And so as a result you'll naturally be up on him anyway. Point is. It's not gonna happen unless the Terran or Zerg seriously screws up. @blinkingangel it doesn't work like that. You 1. Make it sound like we have infinite recalls and we dont use any CB on other things. And 2. It isn't catching the opponent off guard when you have proper positioning against the toss. 3. You can capitalize on the fact that i just did a retreat to take another base, do other things that require your APM. And finally 4. Your forgetting that if I use 3 recalls to get my whole army out of a tight spot. Well I better hope I was on your side of the map. Otherwise 1/3rd of my army is at each base and you can easily capitalize that and snipe a base because you 100% KNOW I'm spread out. Also. If I want to CB AND maintain recalls I'm going to have to individually use CB once on each nexus as normally it will deplete 1 nexus before using another nexii's energy. 1. No I don't, it's 2 mass recalls per nexus. In a late game scenario where toss has 4 bases, that's 8 mass recalls and 8 CBs at full energy. By the time you use 3 recalls, and then want to use it again, the energy will basically be replenished again. Toss will have plenty of energy for mass recall and chronoboost. 2. Yes it is, depending on the situation. If you catch toss in a choke etc. Not like it's important how you define it anyways. 3. Not even sure what your point is. Terran can take a base before an engagement and macro as well. Toss having just recalled doesn't change that. 4. Once again, 2 recalls per base. That's 2 at your main, at your natural. On most maps toss will easily be able to recall in a way where they can defend their 4th. Think of a map like daybreak for example, where the 4th is a 10 second walk from the natural. It is dependent on previous positioning and expansions, but toss can expand in a way that is favorable for mass recall. I also don't see how that last point matters. Its hardly any extra micro. Push 5, click nexus, CB, repeat. Overall, this mechanic is way too forgiving for protoss. It adds nothing to the game in terms of skill. If people complained about supply drop being too forgiving, they should throw a fit about this. It allows protoss not to care about being maxed and defending drops on their production, they don't have to worry about bad positioning or unfavorable engagements, and they can defend expos even better. Its really just a badly designed mechanic overall. Nexii have 100 energy, recall costs 75. Do the math. And talking about your rebuttal #3, my point is that you can capitalize on the fact that you know I'm now at my base. Too used to seeing 200 for OC energy. The point still holds - 4 mass recalls, 4 CBs. And like I said, the energy will have plenty of time to recharge. Also, we can't forget how great this would be for offensive use. Protoss will have free reign over terran expansions. They go to attack an expo, terran goes to defend, and they just warp away. If terran goes to attack their expo, they can still leave. If terran goes for a base trade, guess what, they just warp back home. AND terran has been begging for mech viability in TvP. Guess what this ability practically shuts down in many ways? Mech. Have fun trying to defend expos when you have an army as immobile as mech. By the time you get to your expo to defend toss will be long gone and so will your expansion. And the best part is they could recall to the other side of the map to attack your expos there, depending on the map. Toss will be able to proxy nexus late game just like terran masses OCs late game. This ability alone could completely shut down mech viablity late game. I've only been talking about offense. Defense isnt really an issue. We already have warp in cannons and HTs. Yes it would strengthen it further but nothing like it's early game offensive ability hit and warp squads. I bet you'd see warp nexis like zerg builds macro hatches it would be so good. The offensive capability will have some uses. But your explaining a VERY specific scenario. Like this one. Your way out of position so I (the protoss) guaranteed will get your base no matter what. Then I haven't been chronoing anything on 2 nexus so I have 75 energy on both to warp my midgame army out. If I had only 1 recall it wouldn't be worth it for me to recall because I'd only get half my army. Don't forget you were so far out of position (I don't know why) that I got your base for free. Also I might not want to recall because generally thirds are in good spots to utilize forcefields to their best effect. Maybe you should just be in a good position that I can't don't that. And then me not spending my 75 energy on chronoing robo units, workers, and upgrades will be a BAD THING instead of a good thing. Especially if I had 150 energy saved up to double recall and then I couldn't even do it because you were positioned properly. Oh wait, midgame I'd never have that much energy saved up because my gameplan isn't to rely on my opponent playing badly and being out of position. If he's anywhere but at home he's out of position in this scenario though. The main problem is everyone gets out of position at least enough to kill one of thier buildings, even a pros, but you can't kill that building without losing some/all of your force as army comes in to deal with you. TP removes that laibility as you simply warp out. If he decides to go to your base, you continue to damage his until he gets close then warp back to protect you base. win/win A extra nexi, lets call it a warp nexi, takes care of your chrono worries and that's a lot cheaper/faster/earlier than getting a MS. This TP can be nerfed by making area very small area or # units that can be warped but then it's useless for what Blizz wants it for, defense of protoss base. Okay midgame if I'm waltzing towards your base confidentally (without HoTS) what are you thinking? 6gate? Immortal allin? Builds that are ALLIN. You better be at your base when your trying to defend that. And if you see my army one time you'll be able to get in position easily. And Terran all the time stims in and kills the third and leaves with no losses I dunno what your talking about. And like I said. The ONLY way it's viable is if I have 150 energy saved up. And I WON'T because my gameplan is not relying on you being out of position. I'd way rather spend that chronoboost on my robo, workers, and upgrades. If I went to your base with 150 energy banked midgame and wasn't able to use the recall strat because you were positioned properly then that's so much chronoboost that could have been earlier workers, higher immortal/observer/colossus numbers or halfway through +2 +2 when I haven't even started +2 +2 because I was banking chrono. So yes if I caught you far enough out of position to justify it then awesome, if not then it's a real shitty scenario. So I'd rather just spend that CB and not have my strategy relying on the Terran being out of position (which he won't be if he's any good.) If 75 energy is a TP and you're chronoboosting, you're screwing up. Just build a second robo if you need extra production.
What kind of economy is the protoss on if we're forgoing a half dozen chronos on probes and building extra robos?
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Can't wait for Blizz to wise up and just go ahead and make the game everyone (including the pros) wants.
SC2: BW
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On April 14 2012 07:45 metbull wrote:
Can't wait for Blizz to wise up and just go ahead and make the game everyone (including the pros) wants.
SC2: BW
quote for emphasis
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On April 14 2012 07:28 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 06:43 deviator wrote:On April 14 2012 06:32 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 06:29 deviator wrote:
IMO, Terran needs more AOE units. Protoss has Colossi and Zerg has Banes. And Hellions aren't that great of a unit, the battle hellion has shit range. They NEED the Shredder to deal with chargelots and mass ling The shredder never worked with your own units in range anyway. And mass lings is easily countered with tank marine and chargelots is countered just with emps and kiting. It might be tougher to execute in lower leagues but neither of those things pros have a problem with. Well Terran has no static defenses that hit ground. They need the shredder to do that. lets say we ignore the existence of bunkers and planetary fortresses, terran still have tanks which is a form of static defense. and if we use the argument: tanks cost supply, thus they are not static defense. then one can also use the argument: shredders cost supply, thus they are not static defense. so no matter how you think about it, its one of these situations: a) shredders are static defense that can attack ground, and so is tanks. b) shredders are not static defense that can attack ground, and neither is tanks
Alright... a PF can be out ranged by Colossi. A bunker needs units inside for it to be effective. Tanks can be dropped on and they can't do shit about it. A shredder might not be a good idea for static defense but Terran really needs a spine crawler of cannon of some sort, something an SCV can easily build anywhere.
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On April 14 2012 06:29 deviator wrote:
IMO, Terran needs more AOE units. Protoss has Colossi and Zerg has Banes. And Hellions aren't that great of a unit, the battle hellion has shit range. They NEED the Shredder to deal with chargelots and mass ling
No, AOE ruins this game. Just look at Protoss. Colossus are stupid units with super low micro requirements and do devastating damage to everything on the ground. If anything, Blizzard simply needs to fix Terran late game. Make seeker missile viable by increasing range and speed. Make Thors/BC/Raven viable vs Toss by making mechanical units immune to Feedback, or at least Immune to the damage portion. Buff mech (as they are pretty much doing with HOTS) , give bio a nerf, and Terran will be in a perfect state. No more of these dumb situations where Terran and the other races have a super high or super low chance to win in early/mid/late game.
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Why don't they give the nexus an ability like the shield battery had in bw? It would work wonders to the PvP match-up because the guy with nexus can charge up damaged units to full shield capacity.
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On April 14 2012 07:14 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 07:09 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 06:51 tdt wrote:On April 14 2012 06:39 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 06:28 tdt wrote:On April 14 2012 06:16 blinkingangels wrote:On April 14 2012 05:50 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 05:46 blinkingangels wrote:On April 14 2012 05:29 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 05:17 tdt wrote:
[quote]
Well imagine warping and or walking your army or part of it right into terrans/zergs main while they are in middle of map then devestating production and they have two choices. 1) come back for you, you'll be gone, damage done w/o reprocussion they are way behind now. 2) Attack your main, you'll be there, warped in, damage done to them still at thier base and none to you.
It doesnt cost a mothership and her buildings to do nor can it be targeted like a mothship. See the problem? Okay I'm replying to you and blinkingangels @you Against Zerg they always know where your army is via having constant control of the Xel nagas unless the Protoss is pushing out and they can position adequately. Against Terran if you do a counterattack like that there's no way you'll get into their main (pushing past their wall) before they close in on you. And the Protoss can't recall his whole army unless he has like 3 bases with that much energy. And if that's the case then he probably is doing pretty badly not chronoing robos, upgrades, etc. And so as a result you'll naturally be up on him anyway. Point is. It's not gonna happen unless the Terran or Zerg seriously screws up. @blinkingangel it doesn't work like that. You 1. Make it sound like we have infinite recalls and we dont use any CB on other things. And 2. It isn't catching the opponent off guard when you have proper positioning against the toss. 3. You can capitalize on the fact that i just did a retreat to take another base, do other things that require your APM. And finally 4. Your forgetting that if I use 3 recalls to get my whole army out of a tight spot. Well I better hope I was on your side of the map. Otherwise 1/3rd of my army is at each base and you can easily capitalize that and snipe a base because you 100% KNOW I'm spread out. Also. If I want to CB AND maintain recalls I'm going to have to individually use CB once on each nexus as normally it will deplete 1 nexus before using another nexii's energy. 1. No I don't, it's 2 mass recalls per nexus. In a late game scenario where toss has 4 bases, that's 8 mass recalls and 8 CBs at full energy. By the time you use 3 recalls, and then want to use it again, the energy will basically be replenished again. Toss will have plenty of energy for mass recall and chronoboost. 2. Yes it is, depending on the situation. If you catch toss in a choke etc. Not like it's important how you define it anyways. 3. Not even sure what your point is. Terran can take a base before an engagement and macro as well. Toss having just recalled doesn't change that. 4. Once again, 2 recalls per base. That's 2 at your main, at your natural. On most maps toss will easily be able to recall in a way where they can defend their 4th. Think of a map like daybreak for example, where the 4th is a 10 second walk from the natural. It is dependent on previous positioning and expansions, but toss can expand in a way that is favorable for mass recall. I also don't see how that last point matters. Its hardly any extra micro. Push 5, click nexus, CB, repeat. Overall, this mechanic is way too forgiving for protoss. It adds nothing to the game in terms of skill. If people complained about supply drop being too forgiving, they should throw a fit about this. It allows protoss not to care about being maxed and defending drops on their production, they don't have to worry about bad positioning or unfavorable engagements, and they can defend expos even better. Its really just a badly designed mechanic overall. Nexii have 100 energy, recall costs 75. Do the math. And talking about your rebuttal #3, my point is that you can capitalize on the fact that you know I'm now at my base. Too used to seeing 200 for OC energy. The point still holds - 4 mass recalls, 4 CBs. And like I said, the energy will have plenty of time to recharge. Also, we can't forget how great this would be for offensive use. Protoss will have free reign over terran expansions. They go to attack an expo, terran goes to defend, and they just warp away. If terran goes to attack their expo, they can still leave. If terran goes for a base trade, guess what, they just warp back home. AND terran has been begging for mech viability in TvP. Guess what this ability practically shuts down in many ways? Mech. Have fun trying to defend expos when you have an army as immobile as mech. By the time you get to your expo to defend toss will be long gone and so will your expansion. And the best part is they could recall to the other side of the map to attack your expos there, depending on the map. Toss will be able to proxy nexus late game just like terran masses OCs late game. This ability alone could completely shut down mech viablity late game. I've only been talking about offense. Defense isnt really an issue. We already have warp in cannons and HTs. Yes it would strengthen it further but nothing like it's early game offensive ability hit and warp squads. I bet you'd see warp nexis like zerg builds macro hatches it would be so good. The offensive capability will have some uses. But your explaining a VERY specific scenario. Like this one. Your way out of position so I (the protoss) guaranteed will get your base no matter what. Then I haven't been chronoing anything on 2 nexus so I have 75 energy on both to warp my midgame army out. If I had only 1 recall it wouldn't be worth it for me to recall because I'd only get half my army. Don't forget you were so far out of position (I don't know why) that I got your base for free. Also I might not want to recall because generally thirds are in good spots to utilize forcefields to their best effect. Maybe you should just be in a good position that I can't don't that. And then me not spending my 75 energy on chronoing robo units, workers, and upgrades will be a BAD THING instead of a good thing. Especially if I had 150 energy saved up to double recall and then I couldn't even do it because you were positioned properly. Oh wait, midgame I'd never have that much energy saved up because my gameplan isn't to rely on my opponent playing badly and being out of position. If he's anywhere but at home he's out of position in this scenario though. The main problem is everyone gets out of position at least enough to kill one of thier buildings, even a pros, but you can't kill that building without losing some/all of your force as army comes in to deal with you. TP removes that laibility as you simply warp out. If he decides to go to your base, you continue to damage his until he gets close then warp back to protect you base. win/win A extra nexi, lets call it a warp nexi, takes care of your chrono worries and that's a lot cheaper/faster/earlier than getting a MS. This TP can be nerfed by making area very small area or # units that can be warped but then it's useless for what Blizz wants it for, defense of protoss base. Okay midgame if I'm waltzing towards your base confidentally (without HoTS) what are you thinking? 6gate? Immortal allin? Builds that are ALLIN. You better be at your base when your trying to defend that. And if you see my army one time you'll be able to get in position easily. And Terran all the time stims in and kills the third and leaves with no losses I dunno what your talking about. And like I said. The ONLY way it's viable is if I have 150 energy saved up. And I WON'T because my gameplan is not relying on you being out of position. I'd way rather spend that chronoboost on my robo, workers, and upgrades. If I went to your base with 150 energy banked midgame and wasn't able to use the recall strat because you were positioned properly then that's so much chronoboost that could have been earlier workers, higher immortal/observer/colossus numbers or halfway through +2 +2 when I haven't even started +2 +2 because I was banking chrono. So yes if I caught you far enough out of position to justify it then awesome, if not then it's a real shitty scenario. So I'd rather just spend that CB and not have my strategy relying on the Terran being out of position (which he won't be if he's any good.) If 75 energy is a TP and you're chronoboosting, you're screwing up. Just build a second robo if you need extra production.
I'm screwing up for chronoboosting workers, my robo when needed, and upgrades? Right.......
Like I stated for this to be effective you need many things to happen
1. The Terran needs to be out of position AKA bad.
2. You need TWO recalls so that's 150 energy or 6 chronoboosts.
3. You need to be in a bad enough spot that it's worth recalling out and if your in their base where using forcefields is like 5x more effective I doubt you even WANT to recall.
So your suggesting that I should save 150 chronoboost HOPING that the terran is bad enough to let me waltz in, kill his base, and recall out? And for compensation build a second robo facility when it doesn't make up for probes or upgrades?
Seems like a pretty terrible suggestion to me. I really can't believe someone who's as well known for being a good poster is not only making low quality posts, but also suggesting to save 150 CB energy just in hopes you might catch your opponent off guard when it'd be WAYY better to just allocate it to CBing upgrades, probes, and your robo. I could see you arguing that having 1 recall on hand might be decent if there is a big drop/counterattack while your pressuring. But 1 recall definitely won't cut it for doing a recall offensive strategy that has low chance of succeeding against an adequate player.
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On April 14 2012 08:03 Scila wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 06:29 deviator wrote:
IMO, Terran needs more AOE units. Protoss has Colossi and Zerg has Banes. And Hellions aren't that great of a unit, the battle hellion has shit range. They NEED the Shredder to deal with chargelots and mass ling No, AOE ruins this game. Just look at Protoss. Colossus are stupid units with super low micro requirements and do devastating damage to everything on the ground. If anything, Blizzard simply needs to fix Terran late game. Make seeker missile viable by increasing range and speed. Make Thors/BC/Raven viable vs Toss by making mechanical units immune to Feedback, or at least Immune to the damage portion. Buff mech (as they are pretty much doing with HOTS) , give bio a nerf, and Terran will be in a perfect state. No more of these dumb situations where Terran and the other races have a super high or super low chance to win in early/mid/late game.
AOE does not ruin the game. If anything, the Colossus makes the Terran or Zerg have to split their units and dodge them lasers.
And if the Terran has more AOE units, then Protoss and Zerg will have to think up more and different strats.
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We are also experimenting with an extremely long-ranged terran missile launcher
Hmm this is great, terran lacked the option to deal serious damage from behind the safety of their sieged fortress , hopefully this will provide.
Recall on nexus.
This might solve the problem of the huge immobility protoss suffers from.
Warping in all away across the map without option to return to your base instandly was severely restraining protoss from reaching their full potential.
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EPT
