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Besides mass recall...
Yeah the Tempest change is sort of odd. But if it's a carrier without interceptors, I think it could work.
I'm still sorely disappointed in the Oracle. I just don't see how it can be balanced and still be useful.
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The Shredder should be similar to Point Defense Drone and also come from the Raven.
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Nydus worms that attack buildings, finally something inventive  . I hope we see more of that creativity, most of the units we see now are kind of typical with a few exceptions
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On April 14 2012 05:52 Blacklizard wrote:
Actually mass recall was definitely 75 energy when they showed it, and I could see it nerfed to 100 energy... so 1 recall per nexus. And they definitely will have to drop the "mass" part of it. I mean, obviously if it was as good as a mothership's recall it would be way too good.
The one place I'm worried about is what kcdc was talking about early game. It could be weird early game... it could force build time changes on the pool or roach warren, which then makes 6 pools and 7RR that much stronger. So all of that is worrying.
But it can all be fixed by requiring a gas upgrade on the nexus if nothing else.
Nexii only have 100 energy. It's already 1 recall per nexus.
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On April 14 2012 05:56 deviator wrote:
The Shredder should be similar to Point Defense Drone and also come from the Raven.
You want a unit to have two abilities that do the same thing? This makes sense how? The shredder was an ok idea but they should have given it to protoss and not allowed it kill workers.
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Good changes, because mostly they just removed stuff. Perhaps they should rethink the way they are developing new units to not be crazy cool looking crap, and be nice balanced non-game breaking units.
And ffs stop defining this unit has role 'x' only. It's up to the player base to determine how to use units, and then you can balance it some around that.
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On April 14 2012 06:00 Berailfor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 05:52 Blacklizard wrote:
Actually mass recall was definitely 75 energy when they showed it, and I could see it nerfed to 100 energy... so 1 recall per nexus. And they definitely will have to drop the "mass" part of it. I mean, obviously if it was as good as a mothership's recall it would be way too good.
The one place I'm worried about is what kcdc was talking about early game. It could be weird early game... it could force build time changes on the pool or roach warren, which then makes 6 pools and 7RR that much stronger. So all of that is worrying.
But it can all be fixed by requiring a gas upgrade on the nexus if nothing else. Nexii only have 100 energy. It's already 1 recall per nexus.
I agree that 75 is a fine amount. There is little anyone can do with the remaining 15 or so energy that will be remaining. It is not like protoss are going to let their nexus top out every time they use this ability.
And people need to not focus on the energy cost. That is not what will balance this ability. It is going to be the AOE on the recall itself, if there is any delay and the length of the stun on the units after they are recalled. Those are more important that if it cost 75 or 86 energy.
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On April 14 2012 05:44 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 05:29 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 05:17 tdt wrote:On April 14 2012 04:43 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On April 14 2012 04:39 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 04:29 kcdc wrote:
Recall on nexus would be ridiculously powerful. Terran would never win again. Zealot pressure would be insanely powerful vs Z. As a Protoss player, it'd be kind of cool for a while, but I just don't see Protoss town portal making into the game. Well considering the guy above and I are actually providing specific examples of why it would be good. Can you give specific examples that would make it a broken ability? I'd be happy to hear it and rebuttal. Let's starts with what you already said. Terran would never win again? What scenario would cause that to happen? And zealot pressure better against Z? You have to use all your chronoboost on WG and +1 just to hit that timing at a decent time. There's no way you'd have recall by then. And even if you did why would it be more powerful? They won't have roach speed so you already can retreat. And even if you couldn't you save a few zealots? At the cost of what? A good amount of probes? Yyeeeaaahhh I'll take the probes. But like I said you won't have the energy anyway for zealot pressure because ALL your chronoboost is allocated to hit a specific timing anyway. Yeah, I don't think people are thinking this through. A lot of folks are responding to this idea as though Blizzard were proposing a free, infinite use Scroll of Town Portal for Protoss. It's going to require pooling chrono energy, which will make it essentially useless in the early game, since any attack you'd want to pull back with it would come significantly later if you had the energy to use the recall. And Blizzard hasn't said what the unit selection radius is going to be: I wouldn't be surprised if it were significantly smaller than the Mothership's current Mass Recall ability, in which case it would only be good for retrieving harassing forces and wouldn't necessarily be able to rescue a whole army that was caught out of position. Well imagine warping and or walking your army or part of it right into terrans/zergs main while they are in middle of map then devestating production and they have two choices. 1) come back for you, you'll be gone, damage done w/o reprocussion they are way behind now. 2) Attack your main, you'll be there, warped in, damage done to them still at thier base and none to you. It doesnt cost a mothership and her buildings to do nor can it be targeted like a mothship. See the problem? Okay I'm replying to you and blinkingangels @you Against Zerg they always know where your army is via having constant control of the Xel nagas unless the Protoss is pushing out and they can position adequately. Against Terran if you do a counterattack like that there's no way you'll get into their main (pushing past their wall) before they close in on you. And the Protoss can't recall his whole army unless he has like 3 bases with that much energy. And if that's the case then he probably is doing pretty badly not chronoing robos, upgrades, etc. And so as a result you'll naturally be up on him anyway. Point is. It's not gonna happen unless the Terran or Zerg seriously screws up. @blinkingangel it doesn't work like that. You 1. Make it sound like we have infinite recalls and we dont use any CB on other things. And 2. It isn't catching the opponent off guard when you have proper positioning against the toss. 3. You can capitalize on the fact that i just did a retreat to take another base, do other things that require your APM. And finally 4. Your forgetting that if I use 3 recalls to get my whole army out of a tight spot. Well I better hope I was on your side of the map. Otherwise 1/3rd of my army is at each base and you can easily capitalize that and snipe a base because you 100% KNOW I'm spread out. Also. If I want to CB AND maintain recalls I'm going to have to individually use CB once on each nexus as normally it will deplete 1 nexus before using another nexii's energy. Blink stalkers can get anywhere they want. Cooldown is the only thing preventing them from getting out of anywhere they want, nexus TP changes that. The main problem is how early it comes with both other races. When armys are small and larva is low this TP will be devestating and abused. Mothership recall is not much of an issue because of not only cost but larva is staked up, barraks are rolling 14 at a time. Armies are prepared. Speed and stim is available making any damage done by a stalker hit squad minimal and not worth MS recall. TP recall is entirely different
Against Terran any situation that involves blinking stalkers into your main would be the same. Either you would be there and I wouldn't blink up using an obs. Or you wouldn't be there and I would pick off a tech lab or 2/supply depots and blink out. I wouldn't need recall. And if it was large enough of a force that it could do serious damage and are willing to overextend. Well 1 recall wouldn't be enough to get all your stalkers out anyway and I'd still have a huge stalker force that sucks against Terran.
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On April 14 2012 06:01 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 05:56 deviator wrote:
The Shredder should be similar to Point Defense Drone and also come from the Raven. You want a unit to have two abilities that do the same thing? This makes sense how? The shredder was an ok idea but they should have given it to protoss and not allowed it kill workers.
Okay then, replace the turrets with Shredder
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On April 14 2012 06:06 deviator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 06:01 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On April 14 2012 05:56 deviator wrote:
The Shredder should be similar to Point Defense Drone and also come from the Raven. You want a unit to have two abilities that do the same thing? This makes sense how? The shredder was an ok idea but they should have given it to protoss and not allowed it kill workers. Okay then, replace the turrets with Shredder
I think we are fine without the shredder. No massive AOE dealing units that players can simply forget about in our SC2 is fine.
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On April 14 2012 06:05 Berailfor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 05:44 tdt wrote:On April 14 2012 05:29 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 05:17 tdt wrote:On April 14 2012 04:43 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On April 14 2012 04:39 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 04:29 kcdc wrote:
Recall on nexus would be ridiculously powerful. Terran would never win again. Zealot pressure would be insanely powerful vs Z. As a Protoss player, it'd be kind of cool for a while, but I just don't see Protoss town portal making into the game. Well considering the guy above and I are actually providing specific examples of why it would be good. Can you give specific examples that would make it a broken ability? I'd be happy to hear it and rebuttal. Let's starts with what you already said. Terran would never win again? What scenario would cause that to happen? And zealot pressure better against Z? You have to use all your chronoboost on WG and +1 just to hit that timing at a decent time. There's no way you'd have recall by then. And even if you did why would it be more powerful? They won't have roach speed so you already can retreat. And even if you couldn't you save a few zealots? At the cost of what? A good amount of probes? Yyeeeaaahhh I'll take the probes. But like I said you won't have the energy anyway for zealot pressure because ALL your chronoboost is allocated to hit a specific timing anyway. Yeah, I don't think people are thinking this through. A lot of folks are responding to this idea as though Blizzard were proposing a free, infinite use Scroll of Town Portal for Protoss. It's going to require pooling chrono energy, which will make it essentially useless in the early game, since any attack you'd want to pull back with it would come significantly later if you had the energy to use the recall. And Blizzard hasn't said what the unit selection radius is going to be: I wouldn't be surprised if it were significantly smaller than the Mothership's current Mass Recall ability, in which case it would only be good for retrieving harassing forces and wouldn't necessarily be able to rescue a whole army that was caught out of position. Well imagine warping and or walking your army or part of it right into terrans/zergs main while they are in middle of map then devestating production and they have two choices. 1) come back for you, you'll be gone, damage done w/o reprocussion they are way behind now. 2) Attack your main, you'll be there, warped in, damage done to them still at thier base and none to you. It doesnt cost a mothership and her buildings to do nor can it be targeted like a mothship. See the problem? Okay I'm replying to you and blinkingangels @you Against Zerg they always know where your army is via having constant control of the Xel nagas unless the Protoss is pushing out and they can position adequately. Against Terran if you do a counterattack like that there's no way you'll get into their main (pushing past their wall) before they close in on you. And the Protoss can't recall his whole army unless he has like 3 bases with that much energy. And if that's the case then he probably is doing pretty badly not chronoing robos, upgrades, etc. And so as a result you'll naturally be up on him anyway. Point is. It's not gonna happen unless the Terran or Zerg seriously screws up. @blinkingangel it doesn't work like that. You 1. Make it sound like we have infinite recalls and we dont use any CB on other things. And 2. It isn't catching the opponent off guard when you have proper positioning against the toss. 3. You can capitalize on the fact that i just did a retreat to take another base, do other things that require your APM. And finally 4. Your forgetting that if I use 3 recalls to get my whole army out of a tight spot. Well I better hope I was on your side of the map. Otherwise 1/3rd of my army is at each base and you can easily capitalize that and snipe a base because you 100% KNOW I'm spread out. Also. If I want to CB AND maintain recalls I'm going to have to individually use CB once on each nexus as normally it will deplete 1 nexus before using another nexii's energy. Blink stalkers can get anywhere they want. Cooldown is the only thing preventing them from getting out of anywhere they want, nexus TP changes that. The main problem is how early it comes with both other races. When armys are small and larva is low this TP will be devestating and abused. Mothership recall is not much of an issue because of not only cost but larva is staked up, barraks are rolling 14 at a time. Armies are prepared. Speed and stim is available making any damage done by a stalker hit squad minimal and not worth MS recall. TP recall is entirely different Against Terran any situation that involves blinking stalkers into your main would be the same. Either you would be there and I wouldn't blink up using an obs. Or you wouldn't be there and I would pick off a tech lab or 2/supply depots and blink out. I wouldn't need recall. And if it was large enough of a force that it could do serious damage and are willing to overextend. Well 1 recall wouldn't be enough to get all your stalkers out anyway and I'd still have a huge stalker force that sucks against Terran.
You might blink out but stim and speedlings can catch you and you'll pay a price for those techlabs/hatch. Not an issue with TP, techlabs/hatch gone stalkers safe at home. Bascially anything that is low risk high reward or easy to do and hard to stop is IMBA, this is imba. I am a protoss saying this so I don't think I'm bias.
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On April 14 2012 05:50 Berailfor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 05:46 blinkingangels wrote:On April 14 2012 05:29 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 05:17 tdt wrote:On April 14 2012 04:43 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On April 14 2012 04:39 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 04:29 kcdc wrote:
Recall on nexus would be ridiculously powerful. Terran would never win again. Zealot pressure would be insanely powerful vs Z. As a Protoss player, it'd be kind of cool for a while, but I just don't see Protoss town portal making into the game. Well considering the guy above and I are actually providing specific examples of why it would be good. Can you give specific examples that would make it a broken ability? I'd be happy to hear it and rebuttal. Let's starts with what you already said. Terran would never win again? What scenario would cause that to happen? And zealot pressure better against Z? You have to use all your chronoboost on WG and +1 just to hit that timing at a decent time. There's no way you'd have recall by then. And even if you did why would it be more powerful? They won't have roach speed so you already can retreat. And even if you couldn't you save a few zealots? At the cost of what? A good amount of probes? Yyeeeaaahhh I'll take the probes. But like I said you won't have the energy anyway for zealot pressure because ALL your chronoboost is allocated to hit a specific timing anyway. Yeah, I don't think people are thinking this through. A lot of folks are responding to this idea as though Blizzard were proposing a free, infinite use Scroll of Town Portal for Protoss. It's going to require pooling chrono energy, which will make it essentially useless in the early game, since any attack you'd want to pull back with it would come significantly later if you had the energy to use the recall. And Blizzard hasn't said what the unit selection radius is going to be: I wouldn't be surprised if it were significantly smaller than the Mothership's current Mass Recall ability, in which case it would only be good for retrieving harassing forces and wouldn't necessarily be able to rescue a whole army that was caught out of position. Well imagine warping and or walking your army or part of it right into terrans/zergs main while they are in middle of map then devestating production and they have two choices. 1) come back for you, you'll be gone, damage done w/o reprocussion they are way behind now. 2) Attack your main, you'll be there, warped in, damage done to them still at thier base and none to you. It doesnt cost a mothership and her buildings to do nor can it be targeted like a mothship. See the problem? Okay I'm replying to you and blinkingangels @you Against Zerg they always know where your army is via having constant control of the Xel nagas unless the Protoss is pushing out and they can position adequately. Against Terran if you do a counterattack like that there's no way you'll get into their main (pushing past their wall) before they close in on you. And the Protoss can't recall his whole army unless he has like 3 bases with that much energy. And if that's the case then he probably is doing pretty badly not chronoing robos, upgrades, etc. And so as a result you'll naturally be up on him anyway. Point is. It's not gonna happen unless the Terran or Zerg seriously screws up. @blinkingangel it doesn't work like that. You 1. Make it sound like we have infinite recalls and we dont use any CB on other things. And 2. It isn't catching the opponent off guard when you have proper positioning against the toss. 3. You can capitalize on the fact that i just did a retreat to take another base, do other things that require your APM. And finally 4. Your forgetting that if I use 3 recalls to get my whole army out of a tight spot. Well I better hope I was on your side of the map. Otherwise 1/3rd of my army is at each base and you can easily capitalize that and snipe a base because you 100% KNOW I'm spread out. Also. If I want to CB AND maintain recalls I'm going to have to individually use CB once on each nexus as normally it will deplete 1 nexus before using another nexii's energy. 1. No I don't, it's 2 mass recalls per nexus. In a late game scenario where toss has 4 bases, that's 8 mass recalls and 8 CBs at full energy. By the time you use 3 recalls, and then want to use it again, the energy will basically be replenished again. Toss will have plenty of energy for mass recall and chronoboost. 2. Yes it is, depending on the situation. If you catch toss in a choke etc. Not like it's important how you define it anyways. 3. Not even sure what your point is. Terran can take a base before an engagement and macro as well. Toss having just recalled doesn't change that. 4. Once again, 2 recalls per base. That's 2 at your main, at your natural. On most maps toss will easily be able to recall in a way where they can defend their 4th. Think of a map like daybreak for example, where the 4th is a 10 second walk from the natural. It is dependent on previous positioning and expansions, but toss can expand in a way that is favorable for mass recall. I also don't see how that last point matters. Its hardly any extra micro. Push 5, click nexus, CB, repeat. Overall, this mechanic is way too forgiving for protoss. It adds nothing to the game in terms of skill. If people complained about supply drop being too forgiving, they should throw a fit about this. It allows protoss not to care about being maxed and defending drops on their production, they don't have to worry about bad positioning or unfavorable engagements, and they can defend expos even better. Its really just a badly designed mechanic overall. Nexii have 100 energy, recall costs 75. Do the math. And talking about your rebuttal #3, my point is that you can capitalize on the fact that you know I'm now at my base.
Too used to seeing 200 for OC energy. The point still holds - 4 mass recalls, 4 CBs. And like I said, the energy will have plenty of time to recharge.
Also, we can't forget how great this would be for offensive use. Protoss will have free reign over terran expansions. They go to attack an expo, terran goes to defend, and they just warp away. If terran goes to attack their expo, they can still leave. If terran goes for a base trade, guess what, they just warp back home.
AND terran has been begging for mech viability in TvP. Guess what this ability practically shuts down in many ways? Mech. Have fun trying to defend expos when you have an army as immobile as mech. By the time you get to your expo to defend toss will be long gone and so will your expansion. And the best part is they could recall to the other side of the map to attack your expos there, depending on the map. Toss will be able to proxy nexus late game just like terran masses OCs late game. This ability alone could completely shut down mech viablity late game.
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On April 14 2012 05:42 Berailfor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 05:20 kcdc wrote:On April 14 2012 04:53 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 04:45 kcdc wrote:On April 14 2012 04:36 sweetbabyjesus wrote:at above post. If nexus recall makes it into the game it will surely cost a lot of energy, so to have it as your making the first +1 zealot push (or whatever push you're talking about) they would have to give up chronoing their nexus, upgrades or warpgate research, ultimately making the push come later. So they would basically be sacrificing some of the speed of the push for safety, which is a fair trade imo. It wouldn't mess up the matchup too bad atleast. Edit: third post up TL forum is too damn active! Nah, you open gate-nexus (which is totally safe if they keep the energy-for-cannon spell), make 3 zealots to force 16 lings, kill a few lings and drones, then recall to save the zealots. At home, you've made 3 more zealots while you attacked, so now you attack with 6 zealots. Then you kill some more lings and recall away again. You're trading nexus energy for Z's ability to set up their economy. Off of 1 gateway, you're forced at least 10 extra larvae to be spent on defense, and you've forced an early roach warren. Sure, you can't chrono. But the result is a million times better than what chrono can give you. It'd be insanely (probably unfairly) strong. No way man. Your saying 1. Don't chronoboost workers so you can use the arc shield (which might not even be available til cybernetics core due to the assimilator/pylon cheese). Then your saying still don't chronoboost workers to save up and recall 3 zealots? That is so theorycraft and Zerg can make these lings so late that it would be way worse sacrificing that many workers than it would be for them to go oh crap and make some lings. Besides if that's your go to strat then they make 2 spines and lol when you saved up 75 energy for no reason because you can't do anything anyway. The scenario your describing would never happen that way. And gate nexus still might not be viable just because they'd get lings in. Force you to arc shield (if it's even still in the game.) Then they'd run around and still be able to pick off workers unless you did another arc shield. And the meanwhile your losing probes from not chronoboosting. Eh, I hope Blizz thinks like you do, because if they do, I'm gonna have some beta fun abusing the crap out of TP until they fix it. Because trust me on this, they will. I'm not sure what level you play at, but you're WAY overestimating the value of 4 chronoboosts. 4 chronoboosts is 40 seconds of bonus production on 1 building over 80 seconds. 4 chronoboosts allow you to convert 100 early minerals into 2 extra probes. With TP, you could instead spend that 100 energy on forcing 8 extra lings (12 total) and killing 6 of them. So you're delaying 2 probes to delay 6 drones and kill 150 minerals. And then you attack again to snowball the effect. And on top of that, you have an extra 100 early minerals to work with because you didn't build those 2 probes. This is a no-brainer. It's a million times stronger than chronoboost. You might not be aware that P's most common FFE build floats about 75 early energy anyway. Each early probe is a lot of extra money. And no it's roughly 3 probes per 4 chronoboost. Also they would not need to make lings. Since your talking about a gate expand he can easily make 1 spine and the queen. Plus his initial lings to defend or make 2 roaches and kite. And as far as FFE goes. I have NO CLUE what FFE you do that banks 75 energy. Let's go through the list. +1 zealot - after initial probe CB's you spend all of it on +1 and WG Stargate - obviously your stargate units, CBing probes is huge here, still a delayed attack upgrade that is probably chronoboosted 4gate robo expand - initial probes, robo, WG tech. +2 blink stalker - initial probes, more probes (really needed to get the solid economy at a correct time) +1 and +2. Possibly blink but not needed with correct timing. Whatever FFE your doing that is "common" and floats 75 energy is beyond me. That just seems like your neglecting CBing properly.
Nexus, forge, gate, pylon and forge, nexus, gate, pylon both bank about 75 energy before they have anything useful to spend it on. Then, depending what you're doing, you spend the chrono mostly on WG and/or weapons upgrades.
And if Z tries to avoid building early lings by instead making a spine (also costly), they can't take a third.
Recall is going to give P a big economic boost against Z compared to where they are now.
I'm basically talking about doing a yufFE, except you save the zealots and do a second, bigger attack, so it's much much stronger.
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We are also experimenting with an extremely long-ranged terran missile launcher that can be used to break siege tank lines to make terran-vs.-terran factory-based games more dynamic.
The thought of this tank-buster missile scares the crap out of me, and I'm a zerg player.
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On April 14 2012 06:16 blinkingangels wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 05:50 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 05:46 blinkingangels wrote:On April 14 2012 05:29 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 05:17 tdt wrote:On April 14 2012 04:43 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On April 14 2012 04:39 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 04:29 kcdc wrote:
Recall on nexus would be ridiculously powerful. Terran would never win again. Zealot pressure would be insanely powerful vs Z. As a Protoss player, it'd be kind of cool for a while, but I just don't see Protoss town portal making into the game. Well considering the guy above and I are actually providing specific examples of why it would be good. Can you give specific examples that would make it a broken ability? I'd be happy to hear it and rebuttal. Let's starts with what you already said. Terran would never win again? What scenario would cause that to happen? And zealot pressure better against Z? You have to use all your chronoboost on WG and +1 just to hit that timing at a decent time. There's no way you'd have recall by then. And even if you did why would it be more powerful? They won't have roach speed so you already can retreat. And even if you couldn't you save a few zealots? At the cost of what? A good amount of probes? Yyeeeaaahhh I'll take the probes. But like I said you won't have the energy anyway for zealot pressure because ALL your chronoboost is allocated to hit a specific timing anyway. Yeah, I don't think people are thinking this through. A lot of folks are responding to this idea as though Blizzard were proposing a free, infinite use Scroll of Town Portal for Protoss. It's going to require pooling chrono energy, which will make it essentially useless in the early game, since any attack you'd want to pull back with it would come significantly later if you had the energy to use the recall. And Blizzard hasn't said what the unit selection radius is going to be: I wouldn't be surprised if it were significantly smaller than the Mothership's current Mass Recall ability, in which case it would only be good for retrieving harassing forces and wouldn't necessarily be able to rescue a whole army that was caught out of position. Well imagine warping and or walking your army or part of it right into terrans/zergs main while they are in middle of map then devestating production and they have two choices. 1) come back for you, you'll be gone, damage done w/o reprocussion they are way behind now. 2) Attack your main, you'll be there, warped in, damage done to them still at thier base and none to you. It doesnt cost a mothership and her buildings to do nor can it be targeted like a mothship. See the problem? Okay I'm replying to you and blinkingangels @you Against Zerg they always know where your army is via having constant control of the Xel nagas unless the Protoss is pushing out and they can position adequately. Against Terran if you do a counterattack like that there's no way you'll get into their main (pushing past their wall) before they close in on you. And the Protoss can't recall his whole army unless he has like 3 bases with that much energy. And if that's the case then he probably is doing pretty badly not chronoing robos, upgrades, etc. And so as a result you'll naturally be up on him anyway. Point is. It's not gonna happen unless the Terran or Zerg seriously screws up. @blinkingangel it doesn't work like that. You 1. Make it sound like we have infinite recalls and we dont use any CB on other things. And 2. It isn't catching the opponent off guard when you have proper positioning against the toss. 3. You can capitalize on the fact that i just did a retreat to take another base, do other things that require your APM. And finally 4. Your forgetting that if I use 3 recalls to get my whole army out of a tight spot. Well I better hope I was on your side of the map. Otherwise 1/3rd of my army is at each base and you can easily capitalize that and snipe a base because you 100% KNOW I'm spread out. Also. If I want to CB AND maintain recalls I'm going to have to individually use CB once on each nexus as normally it will deplete 1 nexus before using another nexii's energy. 1. No I don't, it's 2 mass recalls per nexus. In a late game scenario where toss has 4 bases, that's 8 mass recalls and 8 CBs at full energy. By the time you use 3 recalls, and then want to use it again, the energy will basically be replenished again. Toss will have plenty of energy for mass recall and chronoboost. 2. Yes it is, depending on the situation. If you catch toss in a choke etc. Not like it's important how you define it anyways. 3. Not even sure what your point is. Terran can take a base before an engagement and macro as well. Toss having just recalled doesn't change that. 4. Once again, 2 recalls per base. That's 2 at your main, at your natural. On most maps toss will easily be able to recall in a way where they can defend their 4th. Think of a map like daybreak for example, where the 4th is a 10 second walk from the natural. It is dependent on previous positioning and expansions, but toss can expand in a way that is favorable for mass recall. I also don't see how that last point matters. Its hardly any extra micro. Push 5, click nexus, CB, repeat. Overall, this mechanic is way too forgiving for protoss. It adds nothing to the game in terms of skill. If people complained about supply drop being too forgiving, they should throw a fit about this. It allows protoss not to care about being maxed and defending drops on their production, they don't have to worry about bad positioning or unfavorable engagements, and they can defend expos even better. Its really just a badly designed mechanic overall. Nexii have 100 energy, recall costs 75. Do the math. And talking about your rebuttal #3, my point is that you can capitalize on the fact that you know I'm now at my base. Too used to seeing 200 for OC energy. The point still holds - 4 mass recalls, 4 CBs. And like I said, the energy will have plenty of time to recharge. Also, we can't forget how great this would be for offensive use. Protoss will have free reign over terran expansions. They go to attack an expo, terran goes to defend, and they just warp away. If terran goes to attack their expo, they can still leave. If terran goes for a base trade, guess what, they just warp back home. AND terran has been begging for mech viability in TvP. Guess what this ability practically shuts down in many ways? Mech. Have fun trying to defend expos when you have an army as immobile as mech. By the time you get to your expo to defend toss will be long gone and so will your expansion. And the best part is they could recall to the other side of the map to attack your expos there, depending on the map. Toss will be able to proxy nexus late game just like terran masses OCs late game. This ability alone could completely shut down mech viablity late game.
I've only been talking about offense. Defense isnt really an issue. We already have warp in cannons and HTs. Yes it would strengthen it further but nothing like it's early game offensive ability hit and warp squads.
I bet you'd see warp nexis like zerg builds macro hatches it would be so good.
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IMO, Terran needs more AOE units. Protoss has Colossi and Zerg has Banes. And Hellions aren't that great of a unit, the battle hellion has shit range. They NEED the Shredder to deal with chargelots and mass ling
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On April 14 2012 06:18 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 05:42 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 05:20 kcdc wrote:On April 14 2012 04:53 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 04:45 kcdc wrote:On April 14 2012 04:36 sweetbabyjesus wrote:at above post. If nexus recall makes it into the game it will surely cost a lot of energy, so to have it as your making the first +1 zealot push (or whatever push you're talking about) they would have to give up chronoing their nexus, upgrades or warpgate research, ultimately making the push come later. So they would basically be sacrificing some of the speed of the push for safety, which is a fair trade imo. It wouldn't mess up the matchup too bad atleast. Edit: third post up TL forum is too damn active! Nah, you open gate-nexus (which is totally safe if they keep the energy-for-cannon spell), make 3 zealots to force 16 lings, kill a few lings and drones, then recall to save the zealots. At home, you've made 3 more zealots while you attacked, so now you attack with 6 zealots. Then you kill some more lings and recall away again. You're trading nexus energy for Z's ability to set up their economy. Off of 1 gateway, you're forced at least 10 extra larvae to be spent on defense, and you've forced an early roach warren. Sure, you can't chrono. But the result is a million times better than what chrono can give you. It'd be insanely (probably unfairly) strong. No way man. Your saying 1. Don't chronoboost workers so you can use the arc shield (which might not even be available til cybernetics core due to the assimilator/pylon cheese). Then your saying still don't chronoboost workers to save up and recall 3 zealots? That is so theorycraft and Zerg can make these lings so late that it would be way worse sacrificing that many workers than it would be for them to go oh crap and make some lings. Besides if that's your go to strat then they make 2 spines and lol when you saved up 75 energy for no reason because you can't do anything anyway. The scenario your describing would never happen that way. And gate nexus still might not be viable just because they'd get lings in. Force you to arc shield (if it's even still in the game.) Then they'd run around and still be able to pick off workers unless you did another arc shield. And the meanwhile your losing probes from not chronoboosting. Eh, I hope Blizz thinks like you do, because if they do, I'm gonna have some beta fun abusing the crap out of TP until they fix it. Because trust me on this, they will. I'm not sure what level you play at, but you're WAY overestimating the value of 4 chronoboosts. 4 chronoboosts is 40 seconds of bonus production on 1 building over 80 seconds. 4 chronoboosts allow you to convert 100 early minerals into 2 extra probes. With TP, you could instead spend that 100 energy on forcing 8 extra lings (12 total) and killing 6 of them. So you're delaying 2 probes to delay 6 drones and kill 150 minerals. And then you attack again to snowball the effect. And on top of that, you have an extra 100 early minerals to work with because you didn't build those 2 probes. This is a no-brainer. It's a million times stronger than chronoboost. You might not be aware that P's most common FFE build floats about 75 early energy anyway. Each early probe is a lot of extra money. And no it's roughly 3 probes per 4 chronoboost. Also they would not need to make lings. Since your talking about a gate expand he can easily make 1 spine and the queen. Plus his initial lings to defend or make 2 roaches and kite. And as far as FFE goes. I have NO CLUE what FFE you do that banks 75 energy. Let's go through the list. +1 zealot - after initial probe CB's you spend all of it on +1 and WG Stargate - obviously your stargate units, CBing probes is huge here, still a delayed attack upgrade that is probably chronoboosted 4gate robo expand - initial probes, robo, WG tech. +2 blink stalker - initial probes, more probes (really needed to get the solid economy at a correct time) +1 and +2. Possibly blink but not needed with correct timing. Whatever FFE your doing that is "common" and floats 75 energy is beyond me. That just seems like your neglecting CBing properly. Nexus, forge, gate, pylon and forge, nexus, gate, pylon both bank about 75 energy before they have anything useful to spend it on. Then, depending what you're doing, you spend the chrono mostly on WG and/or weapons upgrades. And if Z tries to avoid building early lings by instead making a spine (also costly), they can't take a third. Recall is going to give P a big economic boost against Z compared to where they are now. I'm basically talking about doing a yufFE, except you save the zealots and do a second, bigger attack, so it's much much stronger.
Well originally you were talking about from a gate expand. Which is a whole different story. But okay gate or FFE. Let's say they take their third, and once we stop catching the Zerg off guard (meaning it becomes a metagame thing) they get out a couple roaches to defend at a proper time. We recall to not lose anything, then we might be ahead of normal or we might not. Who knows. But if we are then sweet. Maybe it's the answer to your stepahano roaches thread. We get to force some early units so they cant be maxed while we are at 120-130 supply. Nothing imbalanced about us doing some harass to force units and gain a small advantage. And as a result we are also down a few workers, or aren't going to be properly timed on a build. So there is pros and cons to it. But it's certainly not broken in the scenario you described. And like I stated previously they have done extensive HoTS testing already and have scrapped many things that weren't working out. So far recall has made it through their testing so it hasn't shown to be imbalanced so far. Otherwise I'm sure they wouldn't have mentioned it again or would have mentioned they had to scrap it because it was too powerful.
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On April 14 2012 06:16 blinkingangels wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 05:50 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 05:46 blinkingangels wrote:On April 14 2012 05:29 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 05:17 tdt wrote:On April 14 2012 04:43 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On April 14 2012 04:39 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 04:29 kcdc wrote:
Recall on nexus would be ridiculously powerful. Terran would never win again. Zealot pressure would be insanely powerful vs Z. As a Protoss player, it'd be kind of cool for a while, but I just don't see Protoss town portal making into the game. Well considering the guy above and I are actually providing specific examples of why it would be good. Can you give specific examples that would make it a broken ability? I'd be happy to hear it and rebuttal. Let's starts with what you already said. Terran would never win again? What scenario would cause that to happen? And zealot pressure better against Z? You have to use all your chronoboost on WG and +1 just to hit that timing at a decent time. There's no way you'd have recall by then. And even if you did why would it be more powerful? They won't have roach speed so you already can retreat. And even if you couldn't you save a few zealots? At the cost of what? A good amount of probes? Yyeeeaaahhh I'll take the probes. But like I said you won't have the energy anyway for zealot pressure because ALL your chronoboost is allocated to hit a specific timing anyway. Yeah, I don't think people are thinking this through. A lot of folks are responding to this idea as though Blizzard were proposing a free, infinite use Scroll of Town Portal for Protoss. It's going to require pooling chrono energy, which will make it essentially useless in the early game, since any attack you'd want to pull back with it would come significantly later if you had the energy to use the recall. And Blizzard hasn't said what the unit selection radius is going to be: I wouldn't be surprised if it were significantly smaller than the Mothership's current Mass Recall ability, in which case it would only be good for retrieving harassing forces and wouldn't necessarily be able to rescue a whole army that was caught out of position. Well imagine warping and or walking your army or part of it right into terrans/zergs main while they are in middle of map then devestating production and they have two choices. 1) come back for you, you'll be gone, damage done w/o reprocussion they are way behind now. 2) Attack your main, you'll be there, warped in, damage done to them still at thier base and none to you. It doesnt cost a mothership and her buildings to do nor can it be targeted like a mothship. See the problem? Okay I'm replying to you and blinkingangels @you Against Zerg they always know where your army is via having constant control of the Xel nagas unless the Protoss is pushing out and they can position adequately. Against Terran if you do a counterattack like that there's no way you'll get into their main (pushing past their wall) before they close in on you. And the Protoss can't recall his whole army unless he has like 3 bases with that much energy. And if that's the case then he probably is doing pretty badly not chronoing robos, upgrades, etc. And so as a result you'll naturally be up on him anyway. Point is. It's not gonna happen unless the Terran or Zerg seriously screws up. @blinkingangel it doesn't work like that. You 1. Make it sound like we have infinite recalls and we dont use any CB on other things. And 2. It isn't catching the opponent off guard when you have proper positioning against the toss. 3. You can capitalize on the fact that i just did a retreat to take another base, do other things that require your APM. And finally 4. Your forgetting that if I use 3 recalls to get my whole army out of a tight spot. Well I better hope I was on your side of the map. Otherwise 1/3rd of my army is at each base and you can easily capitalize that and snipe a base because you 100% KNOW I'm spread out. Also. If I want to CB AND maintain recalls I'm going to have to individually use CB once on each nexus as normally it will deplete 1 nexus before using another nexii's energy. 1. No I don't, it's 2 mass recalls per nexus. In a late game scenario where toss has 4 bases, that's 8 mass recalls and 8 CBs at full energy. By the time you use 3 recalls, and then want to use it again, the energy will basically be replenished again. Toss will have plenty of energy for mass recall and chronoboost. 2. Yes it is, depending on the situation. If you catch toss in a choke etc. Not like it's important how you define it anyways. 3. Not even sure what your point is. Terran can take a base before an engagement and macro as well. Toss having just recalled doesn't change that. 4. Once again, 2 recalls per base. That's 2 at your main, at your natural. On most maps toss will easily be able to recall in a way where they can defend their 4th. Think of a map like daybreak for example, where the 4th is a 10 second walk from the natural. It is dependent on previous positioning and expansions, but toss can expand in a way that is favorable for mass recall. I also don't see how that last point matters. Its hardly any extra micro. Push 5, click nexus, CB, repeat. Overall, this mechanic is way too forgiving for protoss. It adds nothing to the game in terms of skill. If people complained about supply drop being too forgiving, they should throw a fit about this. It allows protoss not to care about being maxed and defending drops on their production, they don't have to worry about bad positioning or unfavorable engagements, and they can defend expos even better. Its really just a badly designed mechanic overall. Nexii have 100 energy, recall costs 75. Do the math. And talking about your rebuttal #3, my point is that you can capitalize on the fact that you know I'm now at my base. Too used to seeing 200 for OC energy. The point still holds - 4 mass recalls, 4 CBs. And like I said, the energy will have plenty of time to recharge. Also, we can't forget how great this would be for offensive use. Protoss will have free reign over terran expansions. They go to attack an expo, terran goes to defend, and they just warp away. If terran goes to attack their expo, they can still leave. If terran goes for a base trade, guess what, they just warp back home. AND terran has been begging for mech viability in TvP. Guess what this ability practically shuts down in many ways? Mech. Have fun trying to defend expos when you have an army as immobile as mech. By the time you get to your expo to defend toss will be long gone and so will your expansion. And the best part is they could recall to the other side of the map to attack your expos there, depending on the map. Toss will be able to proxy nexus late game just like terran masses OCs late game. This ability alone could completely shut down mech viablity late game.
Wouldn't 3 or 4 mass recalls sort of be like some of the arbiter plays you saw in BW?
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On April 14 2012 06:29 deviator wrote:
IMO, Terran needs more AOE units. Protoss has Colossi and Zerg has Banes. And Hellions aren't that great of a unit, the battle hellion has shit range. They NEED the Shredder to deal with chargelots and mass ling
The shredder never worked with your own units in range anyway. And mass lings is easily countered with tank marine and chargelots is countered just with emps and kiting. It might be tougher to execute in lower leagues but neither of those things pros have a problem with.
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On April 14 2012 06:28 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 06:16 blinkingangels wrote:On April 14 2012 05:50 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 05:46 blinkingangels wrote:On April 14 2012 05:29 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 05:17 tdt wrote:On April 14 2012 04:43 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On April 14 2012 04:39 Berailfor wrote:On April 14 2012 04:29 kcdc wrote:
Recall on nexus would be ridiculously powerful. Terran would never win again. Zealot pressure would be insanely powerful vs Z. As a Protoss player, it'd be kind of cool for a while, but I just don't see Protoss town portal making into the game. Well considering the guy above and I are actually providing specific examples of why it would be good. Can you give specific examples that would make it a broken ability? I'd be happy to hear it and rebuttal. Let's starts with what you already said. Terran would never win again? What scenario would cause that to happen? And zealot pressure better against Z? You have to use all your chronoboost on WG and +1 just to hit that timing at a decent time. There's no way you'd have recall by then. And even if you did why would it be more powerful? They won't have roach speed so you already can retreat. And even if you couldn't you save a few zealots? At the cost of what? A good amount of probes? Yyeeeaaahhh I'll take the probes. But like I said you won't have the energy anyway for zealot pressure because ALL your chronoboost is allocated to hit a specific timing anyway. Yeah, I don't think people are thinking this through. A lot of folks are responding to this idea as though Blizzard were proposing a free, infinite use Scroll of Town Portal for Protoss. It's going to require pooling chrono energy, which will make it essentially useless in the early game, since any attack you'd want to pull back with it would come significantly later if you had the energy to use the recall. And Blizzard hasn't said what the unit selection radius is going to be: I wouldn't be surprised if it were significantly smaller than the Mothership's current Mass Recall ability, in which case it would only be good for retrieving harassing forces and wouldn't necessarily be able to rescue a whole army that was caught out of position. Well imagine warping and or walking your army or part of it right into terrans/zergs main while they are in middle of map then devestating production and they have two choices. 1) come back for you, you'll be gone, damage done w/o reprocussion they are way behind now. 2) Attack your main, you'll be there, warped in, damage done to them still at thier base and none to you. It doesnt cost a mothership and her buildings to do nor can it be targeted like a mothship. See the problem? Okay I'm replying to you and blinkingangels @you Against Zerg they always know where your army is via having constant control of the Xel nagas unless the Protoss is pushing out and they can position adequately. Against Terran if you do a counterattack like that there's no way you'll get into their main (pushing past their wall) before they close in on you. And the Protoss can't recall his whole army unless he has like 3 bases with that much energy. And if that's the case then he probably is doing pretty badly not chronoing robos, upgrades, etc. And so as a result you'll naturally be up on him anyway. Point is. It's not gonna happen unless the Terran or Zerg seriously screws up. @blinkingangel it doesn't work like that. You 1. Make it sound like we have infinite recalls and we dont use any CB on other things. And 2. It isn't catching the opponent off guard when you have proper positioning against the toss. 3. You can capitalize on the fact that i just did a retreat to take another base, do other things that require your APM. And finally 4. Your forgetting that if I use 3 recalls to get my whole army out of a tight spot. Well I better hope I was on your side of the map. Otherwise 1/3rd of my army is at each base and you can easily capitalize that and snipe a base because you 100% KNOW I'm spread out. Also. If I want to CB AND maintain recalls I'm going to have to individually use CB once on each nexus as normally it will deplete 1 nexus before using another nexii's energy. 1. No I don't, it's 2 mass recalls per nexus. In a late game scenario where toss has 4 bases, that's 8 mass recalls and 8 CBs at full energy. By the time you use 3 recalls, and then want to use it again, the energy will basically be replenished again. Toss will have plenty of energy for mass recall and chronoboost. 2. Yes it is, depending on the situation. If you catch toss in a choke etc. Not like it's important how you define it anyways. 3. Not even sure what your point is. Terran can take a base before an engagement and macro as well. Toss having just recalled doesn't change that. 4. Once again, 2 recalls per base. That's 2 at your main, at your natural. On most maps toss will easily be able to recall in a way where they can defend their 4th. Think of a map like daybreak for example, where the 4th is a 10 second walk from the natural. It is dependent on previous positioning and expansions, but toss can expand in a way that is favorable for mass recall. I also don't see how that last point matters. Its hardly any extra micro. Push 5, click nexus, CB, repeat. Overall, this mechanic is way too forgiving for protoss. It adds nothing to the game in terms of skill. If people complained about supply drop being too forgiving, they should throw a fit about this. It allows protoss not to care about being maxed and defending drops on their production, they don't have to worry about bad positioning or unfavorable engagements, and they can defend expos even better. Its really just a badly designed mechanic overall. Nexii have 100 energy, recall costs 75. Do the math. And talking about your rebuttal #3, my point is that you can capitalize on the fact that you know I'm now at my base. Too used to seeing 200 for OC energy. The point still holds - 4 mass recalls, 4 CBs. And like I said, the energy will have plenty of time to recharge. Also, we can't forget how great this would be for offensive use. Protoss will have free reign over terran expansions. They go to attack an expo, terran goes to defend, and they just warp away. If terran goes to attack their expo, they can still leave. If terran goes for a base trade, guess what, they just warp back home. AND terran has been begging for mech viability in TvP. Guess what this ability practically shuts down in many ways? Mech. Have fun trying to defend expos when you have an army as immobile as mech. By the time you get to your expo to defend toss will be long gone and so will your expansion. And the best part is they could recall to the other side of the map to attack your expos there, depending on the map. Toss will be able to proxy nexus late game just like terran masses OCs late game. This ability alone could completely shut down mech viablity late game. I've only been talking about offense. Defense isnt really an issue. We already have warp in cannons and HTs. Yes it would strengthen it further but nothing like it's early game offensive ability hit and warp squads. I bet you'd see warp nexis like zerg builds macro hatches it would be so good.
The offensive capability will have some uses. But your explaining a VERY specific scenario. Like this one. Your way out of position so I (the protoss) guaranteed will get your base no matter what. Then I haven't been chronoing anything on 2 nexus so I have 75 energy on both to warp my midgame army out. If I had only 1 recall it wouldn't be worth it for me to recall because I'd only get half my army. Don't forget you were so far out of position (I don't know why) that I got your base for free. Also I might not want to recall because generally thirds are in good spots to utilize forcefields to their best effect. Maybe you should just be in a good position that I can't don't that. And then me not spending my 75 energy on chronoing robo units, workers, and upgrades will be a BAD THING instead of a good thing. Especially if I had 150 energy saved up to double recall and then I couldn't even do it because you were positioned properly.
Oh wait, midgame I'd never have that much energy saved up because my gameplan isn't to rely on my opponent playing badly and being out of position.
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EPT
