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SiroKO
France721 Posts
Also, I hope Blizzard designs the tempest with the broodlord/corruptors/infestor combo in mind... Because even though mass mutalisks can be hard late-game, broodlords/corruptors/infestors is actually unbeatable unless the Zerg does a mistake or entered the lategame with a disadvantage. | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On April 14 2012 04:35 kcdc wrote: And more health. It'd actually feel totally different than a void ray. For one, siege range makes it completely different tactically. Secondly, it wouldn't die to fungals, so it'd counter infestor/BL which void rays are terrible against. It might also counter colossi in PvP. Unlikely its stats will be good enough for that, unless it's not tagged as 'armored' in which case it could be pretty resilient against stalkers. How about just fix the damn carrier. e.g. 14 siege thoery actually works. Interceptor heals. Reduce build time. Carrier could be such an awesome mechanic rather than just a heavy duty void ray. I hate when they remove micro, like they did with VR where it was a challege to keep him charged and worthless uncharged and instead made him basically 1a. And are about to with massive VR called tempest. | ||
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Berailfor
441 Posts
On April 14 2012 04:45 kcdc wrote: Nah, you open gate-nexus (which is totally safe if they keep the energy-for-cannon spell), make 3 zealots to force 16 lings, kill a few lings and drones, then recall to save the zealots. At home, you've made 3 more zealots while you attacked, so now you attack with 6 zealots. Then you kill some more lings and recall away again. You're trading nexus energy for Z's ability to set up their economy. Off of 1 gateway, you're forced at least 10 extra larvae to be spent on defense, and you've forced an early roach warren. Sure, you can't chrono. But the result is a million times better than what chrono can give you. It'd be insanely (probably unfairly) strong. No way man. Your saying 1. Don't chronoboost workers so you can use the arc shield (which might not even be available til cybernetics core due to the assimilator/pylon cheese). Then your saying still don't chronoboost workers to save up and recall 3 zealots? That is so theorycraft and Zerg can make these lings so late that it would be way worse sacrificing that many workers than it would be for them to go oh crap and make some lings. Besides if that's your go to strat then they make 2 spines and lol when you saved up 75 energy for no reason because you can't do anything anyway. The scenario your describing would never happen that way. And gate nexus still might not be viable just because they'd get lings in. Force you to arc shield (if it's even still in the game.) Then they'd run around and still be able to pick off workers unless you did another arc shield. And the meanwhile your losing probes from not chronoboosting. | ||
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testthewest
Germany274 Posts
Then the tempest seems like the collosus + added air. So every opponent will go viking/corrupter blindly, because most of the time you need that auto-splash. What toss really needed, a good basic ranged fighting unit, is not in the cards it seems. Stalkers are so expensive and so low dps, you are basically forced into AE. Terran also seems to get stuff, they don't really want. Between Thors, Marines and repairable missle turrets, what other anti-Muta unit could possibly fit in? But as Dustin says, it's hard to find something, that's not simply outshone by stimmed Marines. How about a unit, that takes reduce damage from melee (a bit like guardian shield for toss)? Perhaps the insane lategame dps of marines could be nerfed, if they had a meat shield and toss AE would be weaker. Only zerg seems to be fine. Really thinking about trying Zerg with the expansion (then again: ZvZ all the time will be hell) | ||
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blinkingangels
105 Posts
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On April 14 2012 04:43 AmericanUmlaut wrote: Yeah, I don't think people are thinking this through. A lot of folks are responding to this idea as though Blizzard were proposing a free, infinite use Scroll of Town Portal for Protoss. It's going to require pooling chrono energy, which will make it essentially useless in the early game, since any attack you'd want to pull back with it would come significantly later if you had the energy to use the recall. And Blizzard hasn't said what the unit selection radius is going to be: I wouldn't be surprised if it were significantly smaller than the Mothership's current Mass Recall ability, in which case it would only be good for retrieving harassing forces and wouldn't necessarily be able to rescue a whole army that was caught out of position. Well imagine warping and or walking your army or part of it right into terrans/zergs main while they are in middle of map then devestating production and they have two choices. 1) come back for you, you'll be gone, damage done w/o reprocussion they are way behind now. 2) Attack your main, you'll be there, warped in, damage done to them still at thier base and none to you. It doesnt cost a mothership and her buildings to do nor can it be targeted like a mothship. See the problem? | ||
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Berailfor
441 Posts
On April 14 2012 05:12 testthewest wrote: I'm somewhat sad. I liked the replicant, giving you a ton of choices and giving the opponent something to think about. Then the tempest seems like the collosus + added air. So every opponent will go viking/corrupter blindly, because most of the time you need that auto-splash. What toss really needed, a good basic ranged fighting unit, is not in the cards it seems. Stalkers are so expensive and so low dps, you are basically forced into AE. Terran also seems to get stuff, they don't really want. Between Thors, Marines and repairable missle turrets, what other anti-Muta unit could possibly fit in? But as Dustin says, it's hard to find something, that's not simply outshone by stimmed Marines. How about a unit, that takes reduce damage from melee (a bit like guardian shield for toss)? Perhaps the insane lategame dps of marines could be nerfed, if they had a meat shield and toss AE would be weaker. Only zerg seems to be fine. Really thinking about trying Zerg with the expansion (then again: ZvZ all the time will be hell) The tempest isn't going to do splash damage anymore. It's a long range siege unit like the way people wanted the carrier. Except it doesn't have all the problems the carrier had with it. Envision it as a guardian from BW type unit. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On April 14 2012 04:53 Berailfor wrote: No way man. Your saying 1. Don't chronoboost workers so you can use the arc shield (which might not even be available til cybernetics core due to the assimilator/pylon cheese). Then your saying still don't chronoboost workers to save up and recall 3 zealots? That is so theorycraft and Zerg can make these lings so late that it would be way worse sacrificing that many workers than it would be for them to go oh crap and make some lings. Besides if that's your go to strat then they make 2 spines and lol when you saved up 75 energy for no reason because you can't do anything anyway. The scenario your describing would never happen that way. And gate nexus still might not be viable just because they'd get lings in. Force you to arc shield (if it's even still in the game.) Then they'd run around and still be able to pick off workers unless you did another arc shield. And the meanwhile your losing probes from not chronoboosting. Eh, I hope Blizz thinks like you do, because if they do, I'm gonna have some beta fun abusing the crap out of TP until they fix it. Because trust me on this, they will. I'm not sure what level you play at, but you're WAY overestimating the value of 4 chronoboosts. 4 chronoboosts is 40 seconds of bonus production on 1 building over 80 seconds. 4 chronoboosts allow you to convert 100 early minerals into 2 extra probes. With TP, you could instead spend that 100 energy on forcing 8 extra lings (12 total) and killing 6 of them. So you're delaying 2 probes to delay 6 drones and kill 150 minerals. And then you attack again to snowball the effect. And on top of that, you have an extra 100 early minerals to work with because you didn't build those 2 probes. This is a no-brainer. It's a million times stronger than chronoboost. You might not be aware that P's most common FFE build floats about 75 early energy anyway. | ||
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testthewest
Germany274 Posts
On April 14 2012 04:45 kcdc wrote: Nah, you open gate-nexus (which is totally safe if they keep the energy-for-cannon spell), make 3 zealots to force 16 lings, kill a few lings and drones, then recall to save the zealots. At home, you've made 3 more zealots while you attacked, so now you attack with 6 zealots. Then you kill some more lings and recall away again. You're trading nexus energy for Z's ability to set up their economy. Off of 1 gateway, you've forced at least 10 extra larvae to be spent on defense, and you've forced an early roach warren. Sure, you can't chrono. But the result is a million times better than what chrono can give you. It'd be insanely (probably unfairly) strong. But one gate needs alot of time to get 6 zealots, not having chronos makes that even worse. And then, when your 6 zealots (they aren't fast, you know...) arrive the second time, they are greeted by 5 roaches, that just dance them. | ||
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Rokevo
Finland1033 Posts
Shredder/Replicant getting sacked is awesome, never liked them Gonna hold judgement on the new ideas until I see more about them, they sound kinda gimmicky, but only time will tell | ||
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Berailfor
441 Posts
On April 14 2012 05:17 tdt wrote: Well imagine warping and or walking your army or part of it right into terrans/zergs main while they are in middle of map then devestating production and they have two choices. 1) come back for you, you'll be gone, damage done w/o reprocussion they are way behind now. 2) Attack your main, you'll be there, warped in, damage done to them still at thier base and none to you. It doesnt cost a mothership and her buildings to do nor can it be targeted like a mothship. See the problem? Okay I'm replying to you and blinkingangels @you Against Zerg they always know where your army is via having constant control of the Xel nagas unless the Protoss is pushing out and they can position adequately. Against Terran if you do a counterattack like that there's no way you'll get into their main (pushing past their wall) before they close in on you. And the Protoss can't recall his whole army unless he has like 3 bases with that much energy. And if that's the case then he probably is doing pretty badly not chronoing robos, upgrades, etc. And so as a result you'll naturally be up on him anyway. Point is. It's not gonna happen unless the Terran or Zerg seriously screws up. @blinkingangel it doesn't work like that. You 1. Make it sound like we have infinite recalls and we dont use any CB on other things. And 2. It isn't catching the opponent off guard when you have proper positioning against the toss. 3. You can capitalize on the fact that i just did a retreat to take another base, do other things that require your APM. And finally 4. Your forgetting that if I use 3 recalls to get my whole army out of a tight spot. Well I better hope I was on your side of the map. Otherwise 1/3rd of my army is at each base and you can easily capitalize that and snipe a base because you 100% KNOW I'm spread out. Also. If I want to CB AND maintain recalls I'm going to have to individually use CB once on each nexus as normally it will deplete 1 nexus before using another nexii's energy. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 14 2012 04:45 kcdc wrote: Nah, you open gate-nexus (which is totally safe if they keep the energy-for-cannon spell), make 3 zealots to force 16 lings, kill a few lings and drones, then recall to save the zealots. At home, you've made 3 more zealots while you attacked, so now you attack with 6 zealots. Then you kill some more lings and recall away again. You're trading nexus energy for Z's ability to set up their economy. Off of 1 gateway, you've forced at least 10 extra larvae to be spent on defense, and you've forced an early roach warren. Sure, you can't chrono. But the result is a million times better than what chrono can give you. It'd be insanely (probably unfairly) strong. Just a question of the exact numbers so far. I open one base roach and get a freewin if you go gate first into zealots + nexus, because the nexus canon is useless vs armored ;-) Or if you scout it, i don't build roaches and transition into swarm host expand to contain you and do a ton of damage vs lowlevel no mobile detection defense. Might all be possible, if the stats are right and there is no use in discussing the exact problems those new units might bring. | ||
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NoScary
United States151 Posts
The overseer is male? I always thought of it as female. | ||
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Berailfor
441 Posts
On April 14 2012 05:20 kcdc wrote: Eh, I hope Blizz thinks like you do, because if they do, I'm gonna have some beta fun abusing the crap out of TP until they fix it. Because trust me on this, they will. I'm not sure what level you play at, but you're WAY overestimating the value of 4 chronoboosts. 4 chronoboosts is 40 seconds of bonus production on 1 building over 80 seconds. 4 chronoboosts allow you to convert 100 early minerals into 2 extra probes. With TP, you could instead spend that 100 energy on forcing 8 extra lings (12 total) and killing 6 of them. So you're delaying 2 probes to delay 6 drones and kill 150 minerals. And then you attack again to snowball the effect. And on top of that, you have an extra 100 early minerals to work with because you didn't build those 2 probes. This is a no-brainer. It's a million times stronger than chronoboost. You might not be aware that P's most common FFE build floats about 75 early energy anyway. Each early probe is a lot of extra money. And no it's roughly 3 probes per 4 chronoboost. Also they would not need to make lings. Since your talking about a gate expand he can easily make 1 spine and the queen. Plus his initial lings to defend or make 2 roaches and kite. And as far as FFE goes. I have NO CLUE what FFE you do that banks 75 energy. Let's go through the list. +1 zealot - after initial probe CB's you spend all of it on +1 and WG Stargate - obviously your stargate units, CBing probes is huge here, still a delayed attack upgrade that is probably chronoboosted 4gate robo expand - initial probes, robo, WG tech. +2 blink stalker - initial probes, more probes (really needed to get the solid economy at a correct time) +1 and +2. Possibly blink but not needed with correct timing. Whatever FFE your doing that is "common" and floats 75 energy is beyond me. That just seems like your neglecting CBing properly. | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On April 14 2012 05:29 Berailfor wrote: Okay I'm replying to you and blinkingangels @you Against Zerg they always know where your army is via having constant control of the Xel nagas unless the Protoss is pushing out and they can position adequately. Against Terran if you do a counterattack like that there's no way you'll get into their main (pushing past their wall) before they close in on you. And the Protoss can't recall his whole army unless he has like 3 bases with that much energy. And if that's the case then he probably is doing pretty badly not chronoing robos, upgrades, etc. And so as a result you'll naturally be up on him anyway. Point is. It's not gonna happen unless the Terran or Zerg seriously screws up. @blinkingangel it doesn't work like that. You 1. Make it sound like we have infinite recalls and we dont use any CB on other things. And 2. It isn't catching the opponent off guard when you have proper positioning against the toss. 3. You can capitalize on the fact that i just did a retreat to take another base, do other things that require your APM. And finally 4. Your forgetting that if I use 3 recalls to get my whole army out of a tight spot. Well I better hope I was on your side of the map. Otherwise 1/3rd of my army is at each base and you can easily capitalize that and snipe a base because you 100% KNOW I'm spread out. Also. If I want to CB AND maintain recalls I'm going to have to individually use CB once on each nexus as normally it will deplete 1 nexus before using another nexii's energy. Blink stalkers can get anywhere they want. Cooldown is the only thing preventing them from getting out of anywhere they want, nexus TP changes that. The main problem is how early it comes with both other races. When armys are small and larva is low this TP will be devestating and abused. Mothership recall is not much of an issue because of not only cost but larva is staked up, barraks are rolling 14 at a time. Armies are prepared. Speed and stim is available making any damage done by a stalker hit squad minimal and not worth MS recall. TP recall is entirely different | ||
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
On April 14 2012 04:45 kcdc wrote: Nah, you open gate-nexus (which is totally safe if they keep the energy-for-cannon spell), make 3 zealots to force 16 lings, kill a few lings and drones, then recall to save the zealots. At home, you've made 3 more zealots while you attacked, so now you attack with 6 zealots. Then you kill some more lings and recall away again. You're trading nexus energy for Z's ability to set up their economy. Off of 1 gateway, you've forced at least 10 extra larvae to be spent on defense, and you've forced an early roach warren. Sure, you can't chrono. But the result is a million times better than what chrono can give you. It'd be insanely (probably unfairly) strong. Hmm, I'm in love with the recall on nexus, even if it is nerfed to only recall 1 unit, so I want to consider what you are saying here. Would a gate nexus build change the metagame to encourage zerg to open 10 pool to pressure before a zealot pops? And if protoss relies on the arc shield cannon spell (which they didn’t mention, so I wonder if it stayed), that early I think the lings should be able to runby whichever building gets the spell cast on it. That spell can’t cover you at a natural choke and your main I don’t think. Maybe Protoss would be forced to pull probes to fill in the gap, hold position. Would that go in P’s or Z’s favor? EDIT: Oh, I was thinking arc shield cost 75 energy. If it's 25 energy, then I think that kills my theory above. Is forcing early roaches completely bad? It slows down zergs economy if Protoss goes FFE, but with gate expand being the norm... what if the metagame changed so that early roach warren is really popular... found to always put the zerg ahead of a gate expand build? No zealot harassment when roaches are out. Lot’s of theory here and no game numbers in front of me to prove it to myself either way, but I think there are possibilities. At worst, I’d take an upgrade on the nexus (similar to CC to Orbital) to get the spell. And even if it is nerfed to only allow one recall per 25 energy or something, it’d still be very cool. | ||
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blinkingangels
105 Posts
On April 14 2012 05:29 Berailfor wrote: Okay I'm replying to you and blinkingangels @you Against Zerg they always know where your army is via having constant control of the Xel nagas unless the Protoss is pushing out and they can position adequately. Against Terran if you do a counterattack like that there's no way you'll get into their main (pushing past their wall) before they close in on you. And the Protoss can't recall his whole army unless he has like 3 bases with that much energy. And if that's the case then he probably is doing pretty badly not chronoing robos, upgrades, etc. And so as a result you'll naturally be up on him anyway. Point is. It's not gonna happen unless the Terran or Zerg seriously screws up. @blinkingangel it doesn't work like that. You 1. Make it sound like we have infinite recalls and we dont use any CB on other things. And 2. It isn't catching the opponent off guard when you have proper positioning against the toss. 3. You can capitalize on the fact that i just did a retreat to take another base, do other things that require your APM. And finally 4. Your forgetting that if I use 3 recalls to get my whole army out of a tight spot. Well I better hope I was on your side of the map. Otherwise 1/3rd of my army is at each base and you can easily capitalize that and snipe a base because you 100% KNOW I'm spread out. Also. If I want to CB AND maintain recalls I'm going to have to individually use CB once on each nexus as normally it will deplete 1 nexus before using another nexii's energy. 1. No I don't, it's 2 mass recalls per nexus. In a late game scenario where toss has 4 bases, that's 8 mass recalls and 8 CBs at full energy. By the time you use 3 recalls, and then want to use it again, the energy will basically be replenished again. Toss will have plenty of energy for mass recall and chronoboost. 2. Yes it is, depending on the situation. If you catch toss in a choke etc. Not like it's important how you define it anyways. 3. Not even sure what your point is. Terran can take a base before an engagement and macro as well. Toss having just recalled doesn't change that. 4. Once again, 2 recalls per base. That's 2 at your main, 1 at your natural. On most maps toss will easily be able to recall in a way where they can defend their 4th. Think of a map like daybreak for example, where the 4th is a 10 second walk from the natural. It is dependent on previous positioning and expansions, but toss can expand in a way that is favorable for mass recall. I also don't see how that last point matters. Its hardly any extra micro. Push 5, click nexus, CB, repeat. Overall, this mechanic is way too forgiving for protoss. It adds nothing to the game in terms of skill. If people complained about supply drop being too forgiving, they should throw a fit about this. It allows protoss not to care about being maxed and defending drops on their production, they don't have to worry about bad positioning or unfavorable engagements, and they can defend expos even better. Its really just a badly designed mechanic overall. | ||
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Berailfor
441 Posts
On April 14 2012 05:46 blinkingangels wrote: 1. No I don't, it's 2 mass recalls per nexus. In a late game scenario where toss has 4 bases, that's 8 mass recalls and 8 CBs at full energy. By the time you use 3 recalls, and then want to use it again, the energy will basically be replenished again. Toss will have plenty of energy for mass recall and chronoboost. 2. Yes it is, depending on the situation. If you catch toss in a choke etc. Not like it's important how you define it anyways. 3. Not even sure what your point is. Terran can take a base before an engagement and macro as well. Toss having just recalled doesn't change that. 4. Once again, 2 recalls per base. That's 2 at your main, at your natural. On most maps toss will easily be able to recall in a way where they can defend their 4th. Think of a map like daybreak for example, where the 4th is a 10 second walk from the natural. It is dependent on previous positioning and expansions, but toss can expand in a way that is favorable for mass recall. I also don't see how that last point matters. Its hardly any extra micro. Push 5, click nexus, CB, repeat. Overall, this mechanic is way too forgiving for protoss. It adds nothing to the game in terms of skill. If people complained about supply drop being too forgiving, they should throw a fit about this. It allows protoss not to care about being maxed and defending drops on their production, they don't have to worry about bad positioning or unfavorable engagements, and they can defend expos even better. Its really just a badly designed mechanic overall. Nexii have 100 energy, recall costs 75. Do the math. And talking about your rebuttal #3, my point is that you can capitalize on the fact that you know I'm now at my base. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 14 2012 05:30 Big J wrote: Just a question of the exact numbers so far. I open one base roach and get a freewin if you go gate first into zealots + nexus, because the nexus canon is useless vs armored ;-) Or if you scout it, i don't build roaches and transition into swarm host expand to contain you and do a ton of damage vs lowlevel no mobile detection defense. Might all be possible, if the stats are right and there is no use in discussing the exact problems those new units might bring. Does anyone know if the Arc Shield ability does zero damage to armored units or simply cannot target them? I would love to see to see a player rage out as the cannon uselessly shoots roaches doing zero damage per shot. | ||
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
The one place I'm worried about is what kcdc was talking about early game. It could be weird early game... it could force build time changes on the pool or roach warren, which then makes 6 pools and 7RR that much stronger. So all of that is worrying. But it can all be fixed by requiring a gas upgrade on the nexus if nothing else. | ||
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