|
On April 14 2012 01:45 kcdc wrote:
They're removing the carrier and replacing it with a "long-ranged aerial siege weapon that can strike both air and ground targets." For all practical purposes, that's just a carrier buff.
So that leaves the proposed new units for Protoss at:
Oracle: Dedicated harass unit with no attack. Produces from stargate.
Are you trolling me, Blizzard? With all the design problems Protoss has, all you're going to give them is a harass unit that produces from the only tech path that ALREADY HAS harass units? If you give the oracle detection, fine. Or if you make it produce from the robotics facility, that'd be fine. But the current design is beyond stupid.
I agree with this statement but for all practical purposes Tempest is a massive Void Ray. I'm sure whether to call it a buff, a nerf or a troll.
|
Edit: Oops double post removed.
|
On April 14 2012 03:25 Blacklizard wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 02:08 blade55555 wrote:On April 12 2012 02:06 kinglemon wrote:On April 12 2012 01:46 rift wrote:On April 12 2012 01:34 shockaslim wrote:On April 12 2012 01:25 rift wrote:
I don't want "cool" stuff, I want a well-designed esport.
I also never want to see a colossus again. I don't think this is the attitude to have. Blizzard doesn't make games as an esport......they make them for a wider range of people than just you. Why should I care about casuals? They can still make a good game for everyone with an esports focus, they aren't mutually exclusive. This is TL, not the Bnet forums. coolnes is the most important thing in game design. as gay as it may sound, it's true. still afraid of the recall for toss. this sounds too much like toss doesn't has to risk something when moving out I agree, I really really really hope this mass recall does not make it through. It just sounds absolutely dumb as a toss could just move out and then recall back. I just see it being dumb and if blizzard does this will be bad for the game imo. I completely disagree. Blizzard will balance it. It will not be as big an area as the mothership recall. Probably half that size. And seeing as how Protoss die to drops and mutas so easily, it seems to make some sense to buff up midgame defenses. And seeing as how Protoss has no harass options, this gives them options. And seeing as how DT tech is completely luck based yet ultra expensive and slow, this turns it into usable tech. And Protoss have the worst options for base trades, this gives them some hope. Protoss has the slowest armies, this gives them the ability to not turtle for 20 minutes. Early game, Protoss has bad scouting and expensive units to scout with... so you need a recall option unless you want to throw away a stalker (game ending sometimes?) just to scout whether somebody is faking an expand or not. It also discourages deathball styles. It also gives Protoss something else to do with their macro mechanic energy... Terran have scans/mules/supply... Zerg have queen spells. Protoss need some options. All in all, it's the best and potentially most balanced thing for Protoss to see. They can actually start using some of their existing tech in actual games, God forbid. And maybe if Protoss has it too easy late game, if their early and midgame are actually more forgiving, we could see some tweaks to late game. For those who like lists, a what it will do summary, what this one change does: 1. Opens up tech that is mostly junk today (DT tech, maybe air), and allows it to be a real option instead of a dice toss. 2. Shores up some huge holes in Protoss defense, which no doubt account for their poor pro performances for the last 1 or 2 years. Zerg like to drone and build units later, have overlords/creep spotting incoming aggression and speedy units so they don't need a recall. 3. Fixes early scouting options a little. Less dice tossing. 4. Allows Protoss to spread out their expensive units and not resort to only deathball style play. Remember how Zerg have 25 mineral lings that can cover the map and do damage and get out with their speed? Terran have medivacs by default and can get in and do major dps in seconds? 5. It's not free. If you save up 75 or 100 energy on your nexus, you will be several probes behind or 40 seconds behind on an upgrade. 6. It will probably only recall a handful of units... just enough to make a warp prism harass not a one way suicide mission. What it doesn't do: 1. Allow Protoss to recall offensively. 2. Allow Protoss to never lose a unit (there will be a second or so delay) 3. Allow Protoss to tech switch. 4. Allow Protoss to directly defend better against a player with a bigger army. 5. Allow Protoss to directly get upgrades faster or more economy faster. 6. Allow Protoss to have a better deathball. 7. Allow Protoss to easily come back from a failed cheese. 8. Allow Protoss to have an army anywhere on the field. Think about it... one feint to make him recall to the wrong place and now Protoss's army is split, you can take them out easier.
Yay! Someone finally hasa nice thought out post about recall. I agree with you. It will fix a lot of problems the Protoss has while still not always being available unless you intend to have it therefore reducing your economy and/or robo units, upgrades etc.
Also, one thing that's overlooked (and I have no clue why it's like this in the first place as it isn't energy efficient at all) is that lategame if your chronoboosting things and still want the ability to recall at different nexii, than you need to manually chronoboost one from each nexus because it uses all 100 on one nexus before starting to use chronoboost on the next nexus.
Another note is it will force Protoss to either hotkey all their nexus separately or have to do something even more micro intensive. If your pressuring and a counterattack happens. While your FFing and microing your army you'll have to go select the nexus, go back to your army, and then recall it. Unless like I previously stated you have nexii on different hotkeys which might be what is needed now.
|
Yeah, I really like how you will have to start thinking about which nexus you want to use and manually selecting a single one in order to use the spells effectively, now. It's really cool. Generally I think the recall ability on the nexus will be a great addition to the game.
|
Plus it will add a whole new mechanic into the game. If the Protoss has to rely on recall then his economy will suffer, and not only will his economy suffer but the other races can "force recalls". Double drop, oh he recalled? Well I still got a building, left, and forced him to recall a chunk of his army. You can even abuse that by positioning where you can flank and kill the leftover smaller force. As everyone knows toss works best in a big ball, not in small groups.
|
On April 14 2012 03:52 Berailfor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 03:25 Blacklizard wrote:On April 12 2012 02:08 blade55555 wrote:On April 12 2012 02:06 kinglemon wrote:On April 12 2012 01:46 rift wrote:On April 12 2012 01:34 shockaslim wrote:On April 12 2012 01:25 rift wrote:
I don't want "cool" stuff, I want a well-designed esport.
I also never want to see a colossus again. I don't think this is the attitude to have. Blizzard doesn't make games as an esport......they make them for a wider range of people than just you. Why should I care about casuals? They can still make a good game for everyone with an esports focus, they aren't mutually exclusive. This is TL, not the Bnet forums. coolnes is the most important thing in game design. as gay as it may sound, it's true. still afraid of the recall for toss. this sounds too much like toss doesn't has to risk something when moving out I agree, I really really really hope this mass recall does not make it through. It just sounds absolutely dumb as a toss could just move out and then recall back. I just see it being dumb and if blizzard does this will be bad for the game imo. I completely disagree. Blizzard will balance it. It will not be as big an area as the mothership recall. Probably half that size. And seeing as how Protoss die to drops and mutas so easily, it seems to make some sense to buff up midgame defenses. And seeing as how Protoss has no harass options, this gives them options. And seeing as how DT tech is completely luck based yet ultra expensive and slow, this turns it into usable tech. And Protoss have the worst options for base trades, this gives them some hope. Protoss has the slowest armies, this gives them the ability to not turtle for 20 minutes. Early game, Protoss has bad scouting and expensive units to scout with... so you need a recall option unless you want to throw away a stalker (game ending sometimes?) just to scout whether somebody is faking an expand or not. It also discourages deathball styles. It also gives Protoss something else to do with their macro mechanic energy... Terran have scans/mules/supply... Zerg have queen spells. Protoss need some options. All in all, it's the best and potentially most balanced thing for Protoss to see. They can actually start using some of their existing tech in actual games, God forbid. And maybe if Protoss has it too easy late game, if their early and midgame are actually more forgiving, we could see some tweaks to late game. For those who like lists, a what it will do summary, what this one change does: 1. Opens up tech that is mostly junk today (DT tech, maybe air), and allows it to be a real option instead of a dice toss. 2. Shores up some huge holes in Protoss defense, which no doubt account for their poor pro performances for the last 1 or 2 years. Zerg like to drone and build units later, have overlords/creep spotting incoming aggression and speedy units so they don't need a recall. 3. Fixes early scouting options a little. Less dice tossing. 4. Allows Protoss to spread out their expensive units and not resort to only deathball style play. Remember how Zerg have 25 mineral lings that can cover the map and do damage and get out with their speed? Terran have medivacs by default and can get in and do major dps in seconds? 5. It's not free. If you save up 75 or 100 energy on your nexus, you will be several probes behind or 40 seconds behind on an upgrade. 6. It will probably only recall a handful of units... just enough to make a warp prism harass not a one way suicide mission. What it doesn't do: 1. Allow Protoss to recall offensively. 2. Allow Protoss to never lose a unit (there will be a second or so delay) 3. Allow Protoss to tech switch. 4. Allow Protoss to directly defend better against a player with a bigger army. 5. Allow Protoss to directly get upgrades faster or more economy faster. 6. Allow Protoss to have a better deathball. 7. Allow Protoss to easily come back from a failed cheese. 8. Allow Protoss to have an army anywhere on the field. Think about it... one feint to make him recall to the wrong place and now Protoss's army is split, you can take them out easier. Yay! Someone finally hasa nice thought out post about recall. I agree with you. It will fix a lot of problems the Protoss has while still not always being available unless you intend to have it therefore reducing your economy and/or robo units, upgrades etc. Also, one thing that's overlooked (and I have no clue why it's like this in the first place as it isn't energy efficient at all) is that lategame if your chronoboosting things and still want the ability to recall at different nexii, than you need to manually chronoboost one from each nexus because it uses all 100 on one nexus before starting to use chronoboost on the next nexus. Another note is it will force Protoss to either hotkey all their nexus separately or have to do something even more micro intensive. If your pressuring and a counterattack happens. While your FFing and microing your army you'll have to go select the nexus, go back to your army, and then recall it. Unless like I previously stated you have nexii on different hotkeys which might be what is needed now.
I think that Protoss will have to do that if they want a solid level of control over where the units are recalled to. Otherwise, they will have to deal with whatever random nexus that hotkey picks as the primary.
I also like this ability as long as the size of the AOE is small, enough for 8-12 units is a realistic game. As long as the protoss player has to have some reasonable control to save their units and make sure they are all within the AOE, it should be fine. A slight delay could also allow for some parting shots, which would add more risk to doing it in combat.
There are some really cool uses for the ability that a lot of people have been overlooking that is not just "OMG, stop drops": Like:
Save fungeled phoenixes and other harassing air units
Saving probes from a sacked base if they are trapped
Allowing for more blink stalker harass, without the risk of losing the game to a single bad blink
Allowing protoss to move out more in PvP and still be able to deal with harassment
All drop harass could be less risky, but still has a cost due to losing three chronos
The key is going to be the size of the AOE and any delay on pulling the units back. I think with a small AOE, the ability to lead to some real decision making that would allow protoss to take more risks and not have to fall back on the death ball every game. It is the ability I am most excited for to improve protoss play and make it more interesting.
|
On April 14 2012 02:01 mosfet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 01:46 deviator wrote:
Wow, sad they took out the shredder... that unit was awesome. I'm still hoping they bring it back as a building. It would fulfill their intended function and be impossible to harass with.
That'd be a really simple fix. I hope they have at least tested this.
|
On April 12 2012 02:01 Lexpar wrote:
I sort of hate a lot of this. Like that Viper thing. I wish that they would just stop beating around the bush and give it dark swarm. "It's not BW blah blah blah" but heres a unit that looks the same and plays the same and can cast the same spell except its a tiny bit different and much worse.
Or air spider mines? Hellions? Scrap both, give terrans vultures with real spider mines. I mean, they go to such lengths to not be BW, but all they're really doing is changing one tiny factor of a BW spell or unit, for the worse.
The lunkers that shoot out tiny bitches? Fuck those. Lurkers are an incredibly interesting and skill demanding unit- so lets make them the exact same except lame as fuck and useless.
These are goliaths that are just goliaths but not as cool and also they do extra damage to mech.
What if the arbiter was the nexus? But also put arbiters in the expansion. Except make them suck.
I'm bummed out.
I hope they read this post and take it heart. This so-called expansion would do itself a huge favor by copying what worked instead of trying to reinvent wheel and meshing C&C with SC. Lots of shit in SC2 works well - Stalkers, Roaches, medivacs etc but lots of shit is just bad and about to get worse.
|
Seeing all these changes makes me wonder when the game will come out. If they are still changing aspects of the game and trying to find other uses for units or come up with new ideas then the beta can't be close. Glad to see they fixed some of the things that many people thought would be wrong to include in the game tho.
|
Recall on nexus would be ridiculously powerful. Terran would never win again. Zealot pressure would be insanely powerful vs Z. As a Protoss player, it'd be kind of cool for a while, but I just don't see Protoss town portal making into the game.
|
On April 14 2012 03:43 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 01:45 kcdc wrote:
They're removing the carrier and replacing it with a "long-ranged aerial siege weapon that can strike both air and ground targets." For all practical purposes, that's just a carrier buff.
So that leaves the proposed new units for Protoss at:
Oracle: Dedicated harass unit with no attack. Produces from stargate.
Are you trolling me, Blizzard? With all the design problems Protoss has, all you're going to give them is a harass unit that produces from the only tech path that ALREADY HAS harass units? If you give the oracle detection, fine. Or if you make it produce from the robotics facility, that'd be fine. But the current design is beyond stupid. I agree with this statement but for all practical purposes Tempest is a massive Void Ray. I'm sure whether to call it a buff, a nerf or a troll.
Someone needs to make a new version of the HotS test map where the Tempest is just a Void Ray with range 12 and a model that's 4x the normal size  .
|
On April 14 2012 04:32 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 03:43 tdt wrote:On April 14 2012 01:45 kcdc wrote:
They're removing the carrier and replacing it with a "long-ranged aerial siege weapon that can strike both air and ground targets." For all practical purposes, that's just a carrier buff.
So that leaves the proposed new units for Protoss at:
Oracle: Dedicated harass unit with no attack. Produces from stargate.
Are you trolling me, Blizzard? With all the design problems Protoss has, all you're going to give them is a harass unit that produces from the only tech path that ALREADY HAS harass units? If you give the oracle detection, fine. Or if you make it produce from the robotics facility, that'd be fine. But the current design is beyond stupid. I agree with this statement but for all practical purposes Tempest is a massive Void Ray. I'm sure whether to call it a buff, a nerf or a troll. Someone needs to make a new version of the HotS test map where the Tempest is just a Void Ray with range 12 and a model that's 4x the normal size .
And more health. It'd actually feel totally different than a void ray. For one, siege range makes it completely different tactically. Secondly, it wouldn't die to fungals, so it'd counter infestor/BL which void rays are terrible against.
It might also counter colossi in PvP. Unlikely its stats will be good enough for that, unless it's not tagged as 'armored' in which case it could be pretty resilient against stalkers.
|
at above post.
If nexus recall makes it into the game it will surely cost a lot of energy, so to have it as your making the first +1 zealot push (or whatever push you're talking about) they would have to give up chronoing their nexus, upgrades or warpgate research, ultimately making the push come later. So they would basically be sacrificing some of the speed of the push for safety, which is a fair trade imo. It wouldn't mess up the matchup too bad atleast.
Edit: third post up TL forum is too damn active!
|
ahh yes I can now sleep in peace knowing the replicant is removed
|
On April 14 2012 04:29 kcdc wrote:
Recall on nexus would be ridiculously powerful. Terran would never win again. Zealot pressure would be insanely powerful vs Z. As a Protoss player, it'd be kind of cool for a while, but I just don't see Protoss town portal making into the game.
Well considering the guy above and I are actually providing specific examples of why it would be good. Can you give specific examples that would make it a broken ability? I'd be happy to hear it and rebuttal. Let's starts with what you already said. Terran would never win again? What scenario would cause that to happen? And zealot pressure better against Z? You have to use all your chronoboost on WG and +1 just to hit that timing at a decent time. There's no way you'd have recall by then. And even if you did why would it be more powerful? They won't have roach speed so you already can retreat. And even if you couldn't you save a few zealots? At the cost of what? A good amount of probes? Yyeeeaaahhh I'll take the probes. But like I said you won't have the energy anyway for zealot pressure because ALL your chronoboost is allocated to hit a specific timing anyway.
|
On April 14 2012 04:29 kcdc wrote:
Recall on nexus would be ridiculously powerful. Terran would never win again. Zealot pressure would be insanely powerful vs Z. As a Protoss player, it'd be kind of cool for a while, but I just don't see Protoss town portal making into the game.
I don't think you'd have to worry about that ever happening.
I also wonder if the nexus recall ability could be implemented in such a way so that it wouldn't break the game, as so many people fear will happen.
|
On April 14 2012 04:29 kcdc wrote:
Recall on nexus would be ridiculously powerful. Terran would never win again. Zealot pressure would be insanely powerful vs Z. As a Protoss player, it'd be kind of cool for a while, but I just don't see Protoss town portal making into the game.
Warp in warp out. It's like a map wide seige unit and of course totally ridiculous. I liked that cannon on nexus thingy far better for defender advatage.
|
On April 14 2012 04:39 Berailfor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 04:29 kcdc wrote:
Recall on nexus would be ridiculously powerful. Terran would never win again. Zealot pressure would be insanely powerful vs Z. As a Protoss player, it'd be kind of cool for a while, but I just don't see Protoss town portal making into the game. Well considering the guy above and I are actually providing specific examples of why it would be good. Can you give specific examples that would make it a broken ability? I'd be happy to hear it and rebuttal. Let's starts with what you already said. Terran would never win again? What scenario would cause that to happen? And zealot pressure better against Z? You have to use all your chronoboost on WG and +1 just to hit that timing at a decent time. There's no way you'd have recall by then. And even if you did why would it be more powerful? They won't have roach speed so you already can retreat. And even if you couldn't you save a few zealots? At the cost of what? A good amount of probes? Yyeeeaaahhh I'll take the probes. But like I said you won't have the energy anyway for zealot pressure because ALL your chronoboost is allocated to hit a specific timing anyway.
Yeah, I don't think people are thinking this through. A lot of folks are responding to this idea as though Blizzard were proposing a free, infinite use Scroll of Town Portal for Protoss. It's going to require pooling chrono energy, which will make it essentially useless in the early game, since any attack you'd want to pull back with it would come significantly later if you had the energy to use the recall. And Blizzard hasn't said what the unit selection radius is going to be: I wouldn't be surprised if it were significantly smaller than the Mothership's current Mass Recall ability, in which case it would only be good for retrieving harassing forces and wouldn't necessarily be able to rescue a whole army that was caught out of position.
|
On April 14 2012 02:01 mosfet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 01:46 deviator wrote:
Wow, sad they took out the shredder... that unit was awesome. I'm still hoping they bring it back as a building. It would fulfill their intended function and be impossible to harass with.
According to DB in a reddit interview, it originally was a building but they changed it to a unit in an effort to take food away from the deathball of terran.
|
On April 14 2012 04:36 sweetbabyjesus wrote:at above post. If nexus recall makes it into the game it will surely cost a lot of energy, so to have it as your making the first +1 zealot push (or whatever push you're talking about) they would have to give up chronoing their nexus, upgrades or warpgate research, ultimately making the push come later. So they would basically be sacrificing some of the speed of the push for safety, which is a fair trade imo. It wouldn't mess up the matchup too bad atleast. Edit: third post up TL forum is too damn active!
Nah, you open gate-nexus (which is totally safe if they keep the energy-for-cannon spell), make 3 zealots to force 16 lings, kill a few lings and drones, then recall to save the zealots. At home, you've made 3 more zealots while you attacked, so now you attack with 6 zealots. Then you kill some more lings and recall away again. You're trading nexus energy for Z's ability to set up their economy. Off of 1 gateway, you've forced at least 10 extra larvae to be spent on defense, and you've forced an early roach warren. Sure, you can't chrono. But the result is a million times better than what chrono can give you.
It'd be insanely (probably unfairly) strong.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
