I dont know if this is worth a thread, but I think its quite interesting, that some koreans want to see foreigners to win tournaments like IPL4
Source: http://www.twitch.tv/iplliveu/b/314371855 Starting @ ~38 min both aLive and Ganzi state that they want Stephano to win/do well because hes a foreigner and there are so many koreans in foreign tourneys, earlier in this vod MMA stated the same starting @~21 min.
This is in my opinion very interesting since there is so much talking going on about how it sucks that foreigners arent able to compete with koreans. I see various reasons too why koreans now want foreigners to do well. One would obviously be that they're just being polite, since they're interviewed by foreigners. Another reason, and that is the interesting one for me, is that they realize that foreigners cheer more for foreign players, and that they might stop paying attention to tournaments if there are only korean players flying to for example MLG and taking top 30.
What do you guys think, why do koreans want foreigners to do well?
On April 10 2012 08:29 ProxyKnoxy wrote: Because they are the underdogs and it creates good storylines? Not that interesting or surprising really.
I think its interesting, because there was some talk about koreans having their pride and therefore are trying to win everything. Some people said that koreans would work together against foreigners and stuff like that...
Wouldn't it be ironic if Koreans dominate the scene for the next 2-3 years, and then all of a sudden the first bonjwa of SC2 happens to be a foreigner? Calling it now.
On April 10 2012 08:33 Leftwing wrote: Wouldn't it be ironic if Koreans dominate the scene for the next 2-3 years, and then all of a sudden the first bonjwa of SC2 happens to be a foreigner? Calling it now.
The way the game is set up there probably won't ever be an sc2 bonjwa and goddamnit i wish people would stop using the term
Well just ask yourself if you're a non-korean, "If a non-korean wins is it more imprinted on my mind than if another korean wins?"
The answer is most likely yes I remember Huk winning tournaments more than I do a korean winning a tournament. Or I remember Naniwa almost beating all the koreans at an MLG last year than I really cared about Leenock winning.
It generates more interest more competition is always funner than less for the competitive minded. I imagine if foreigners were dominating over koreans they'd say the same thing if you look at it that way.
Lots more foreign tournaments in the scene than Korean ones, more foreigners competing at the highest levels and winning creates more interest, leading to more tournaments and sponsor-interest, leading to more opportunities for everyone.
It really is in everyone's best interests for the scene to grow globally rather than be focused on any group in particular.
I'm sure just like us they want foreigners to do well because it makes for a global game, scene and competition. They left to join foreign teams themselves, they want the competition to be as fearce as possible for themselves to help them improve and as they are going to foreign tournaments now, they need guys like Stephano to win and other foreigners to challenge in championship brackets.
On April 10 2012 08:33 Leftwing wrote: Wouldn't it be ironic if Koreans dominate the scene for the next 2-3 years, and then all of a sudden the first bonjwa of SC2 happens to be a foreigner? Calling it now.
The way the game is set up there probably won't ever be an sc2 bonjwa and goddamnit i wish people would stop using the term
Oh come on, isn't it a little early in the game's life to be predicting that there won't ever be one? How long was it until one came around in BW - 3 years? We're seeing way better marine micro, splitting, and multitasking than we did 6-12 months ago. I would agree with you if the metagame was stagnant but I think there's at least a chance. There aren't any S class players (in their primes) playing SC2 anyways so there is a lot of talent potential if a switch did occur, not saying that it will or ever. bonjwa bonjwa
I think the idea of a foreign bonjwa is highly appealing though, and equally unlikely.
I think a lot of it has to do with sponsor interest. They've begun to realize the strength of foreign sponsors through SC2 (seeing foreigners in Korea, joining foreign teams, foreign events, etc.) and know that if SC2 became completely Korean again, there's no reason/interest for foreign sponsors. Foreign teams will move away from SC2, events will cater towards different audiences, etc. Dominance can be good/cool to see, but too much dominance makes the scene stale.
Too bad their players don't. Naniwa and others have commented on how Koreans all band together and share replays to beat foreigners like Naniwa and other top players who are actually on their level. But with all of their working together, they are able to always beat foreigners just due to the fact that their replays are shared by practice partners they trusted.
On April 10 2012 08:30 BlackJack wrote: It's like a reverse Linsanity
Hahaha so true...
Honestly, it's not suprising. This is how it should be, the Koreans dominate because they work harder and have a better training environment. The foreigners will have to work their asses off too if they want to compete. It legitimizes the e-Sport honestly.
It will finally create the illusion of a competition between korea and the rest of the world. You don't prove how strong you are by kiling a mouse, you want a bear.
On April 10 2012 09:15 Mohdoo wrote: Too bad their players don't. Naniwa and others have commented on how Koreans all band together and share replays to beat foreigners like Naniwa and other top players who are actually on their level. But with all of their working together, they are able to always beat foreigners just due to the fact that their replays are shared by practice partners they trusted.
Yeah but isn't Naniwa notoriously known to be unlikeable within Korean circles, unwilling to assimilate etc? That's probably more his fault with the "everyone is against me" attitude. I remember Thorzain was very happy and felt very accepted in Korea.
They say it because they know that tournaments with korean players only will be interesting for......koreans and only koreans. Say goodbye to sponsers, viewers and all that jizz.
Because, although there is always all this "us versus them" talk in any cross-cultural discussion, a lot of people really don't hate other people because of where they're from.
On April 10 2012 10:22 TuElite wrote: They want foreigners to do well to be matched up against them in the finals or in GSL for that easy win most likely.
This doesn't even make sense. If a foreigner does better and is even capable of getting into the GSL, disregarding luck, that won't be an easy win. As he had to go through numerous OTHER koreans who are on equal or greater skill level in qualifiers/code A...unless he was seeded...then that's another story. Easy win is defined as the lucky Koreans who play against the seeded Foreigners who drop out in one go.
Foreigners doing well is crutial for the survival of the SC2 scene as a whole. North American and Europeans doing well = more interest from Westeners = more sponsors = more money for the entire scene, including Korean players. There is a reason why HuK and Idra are payed better than most Koreans: foreign players, at equal skill, bring a lot more sponsor interest to the table than Korean players. So its in everyone's best interest for multiple foreigners to be competitive with the top Koreans.
If foreigners stay bad forever, the scene will die. There will be no $40,000 IPL4 for someone to win. There will be no 20k MLG, etc. Foreigners have to be good to keep interest alive. Although the foreign scene seems perfectly capable of killing itself with lack of support.
As a Korean, I can say they are saying this just to be polite. They see it as pride, national pride. They will do everything they can to keep foreigners from winning majors until the foreign teams band togeather like the Korean teams and take them out.
One man can't do it alone. Team rivalries are cool, and make for great drama, but in the end, it's still Korea vs. the World.
The World needs to get it's act togeather and do what the Koreans do; plan how to beat them.
Honestly they just feel sorry for them . Foreigners had such high hopes, but they put in very little practice compared to their korean counterparts.....
I highly doubt they want a foreigner to win in order to boost sc2 popularity and in turn increase cash flow into their pockets...
They probably respect Stephano a lot for being one of the only foreigners who can really hang with the Koreans. Not saying hes as good as the Code S Titans but based on skill and talent alone he would easily find a home on any Korean team. People like to root for underdogs, Stephano is an underdog just by being a foreigner even though he is leagues above many other foreigners. I think they were just being human and Stephano seems like a likable person, they are probably friends of some sort.
Foreigner winning = more sponsors Since the Koreans are mainly sponsored by international companies, they would want the scene to be exposed to retain those attention. Once Koreans would monopolize SC2, they would have no sponsors left as their domestic market are not exactly interested.
On April 10 2012 11:56 Chunhyang wrote: If asked directly: "Do you want X to do well?"
Nobody's going to say: "No"
this people are acting like the media in this thread blowing something up for no reason it's just common 101 to wish your oppenents to do well. In any competition why would you tell a interviewer " hope they do bad so I can win easy or they are playing terrible"
Nobody wants for their opponents to play bad, because if they do and you win, you'll have to keep listening to everyone saying "If he played his A game he would have kicked your ass" etc.
Why are ppl wanting to see foreigners win if the can compete on a fairly high level they have to lose period. In terms of identification: Who cares about some white guy if his opponente is a korean progamer? I dont see why ppl can't identifie with lets say MVP, MC, Nestea, DRG, etc. even if you take a kid like MKP if you see him split marines that often you have to like his playstyle and all this stuff... i cant see that there are so much foreigners with "more" personality the only thing might be that they just dont speak english... but as it comes to interviews the most are rather dumb in tournaments i think this cant be an argument.
Rather then saying that the koreans are just being polite, I feel that koreans are alot more aware of how much the "story" behind tournaments matters. In korea the esports industry has grown up over many years, and almost all of the players are very aware of how fragile an arrangement it is. Look at the reaction to naniwas probe rush, or to saviour match fixing, in korea the players are very beholden to the fans, and focus on delivering good and entertianing games as well as winning, and anything they see as "bad" for esports they try and avoid. I remember a few years ago the (i believe) skt1 coach said something along the lines of it would be "the best for starcraft" if skt1 won the proleague tournament, and rather then just ignoreing/laughing at him as the foreigner community probably would if nazgul said that about liquid in some team league, the many korean players and netizens agreed with him.
I think the koreans are alot more aware of how important it is to their livelihood that the fans have a good experience watching, and while they obviously will always play to the best of their ability, they often wish for what will benefit the scene as a whole, rather then just themselves, and if foreigners winning events makes starcraft more viewable (and i heard alot of people say they were done watching ipl when stephano got kicked out) then the koreans wouldn't be sad if stephano won as opposed to a korean (other then the korean who lost obv )
As an aside, there have been many interviews in which koreans have said they wanted to play an interesting game for their fans, or apologised for using uninventive builds even when they win. Such as boxer creating brand new builds for every game in broodwar despite some strats being suboptimal, or other cases (which escape me right now.)
This is just my opinion but i think this attitude is true, at least in alot of the older broodwar players who experienced what esports was like before it had the foundation it does now, like boxer who spent the first few years of his career in a flat living of hardly any money.
On April 10 2012 11:56 Chunhyang wrote: If asked directly: "Do you want X to do well?"
Nobody's going to say: "No"
this people are acting like the media in this thread blowing something up for no reason it's just common 101 to wish your oppenents to do well. In any competition why would you tell a interviewer " hope they do bad so I can win easy or they are playing terrible"
but there is a difference between saying "do you want stephano to do well," and "who do you want to win the tournament." I don't think anyone will get angry at mkp for saying "i hope i do well" when asked what he hopes will happen at ipl. Its the fact that they picked stephano without him being suggested (as far as i can tell) that is the reason this thread even exists.
I'm tired of seeing so many threads about koreans/foreigners. As a fan of high level play, I wanna see the best players face each other and whether it's koreans or foreigners.
On April 10 2012 08:33 Leftwing wrote: Wouldn't it be ironic if Koreans dominate the scene for the next 2-3 years, and then all of a sudden the first bonjwa of SC2 happens to be a foreigner? Calling it now.
The way the game is set up there probably won't ever be an sc2 bonjwa and goddamnit i wish people would stop using the term
Oh come on, isn't it a little early in the game's life to be predicting that there won't ever be one? How long was it until one came around in BW - 3 years? We're seeing way better marine micro, splitting, and multitasking than we did 6-12 months ago. I would agree with you if the metagame was stagnant but I think there's at least a chance. There aren't any S class players (in their primes) playing SC2 anyways so there is a lot of talent potential if a switch did occur, not saying that it will or ever. bonjwa bonjwa
I think the idea of a foreign bonjwa is highly appealing though, and equally unlikely.
3 Years ? Ever heard of boxer ? 2000 - 2001 Also i higly doubt that we will ever see a player dominate that much in SC2. And i wish people would stop throwing that word around like that.
On April 10 2012 10:56 Bigtony wrote: If foreigners stay bad forever, the scene will die. There will be no $40,000 IPL4 for someone to win. There will be no 20k MLG, etc. Foreigners have to be good to keep interest alive. Although the foreign scene seems perfectly capable of killing itself with lack of support.
This. Gotta keep foreign hopes alive else cash from foreign tounaments will dry up hurting Koreans bottom line.
If SC2 ever gets big in Korea like BW I don't think they'd give a crap about foreigner scene. And there definity won't be free GSL slots to appeal to western PPV.
Polt has benefited a lot from his rivalry with Stephano. He won the tournament with the highest prize money in SC2 before and nobody cared. Now he gets recognized much more.
On April 11 2012 01:53 SinCitta wrote: Polt has benefited a lot from his rivalry with Stephano. He won the tournament with the highest prize money in SC2 before and nobody cared. Now he gets recognized much more.
I'm not sure it's fair to say nobody cared, but with the amount of Korean Terrans on the scene, it's easy to overlook him. There's no doubt Stephano's popularity shined a light on him.
On April 10 2012 09:15 Mohdoo wrote: Too bad their players don't. Naniwa and others have commented on how Koreans all band together and share replays to beat foreigners like Naniwa and other top players who are actually on their level. But with all of their working together, they are able to always beat foreigners just due to the fact that their replays are shared by practice partners they trusted.
On April 11 2012 01:53 SinCitta wrote: Polt has benefited a lot from his rivalry with Stephano. He won the tournament with the highest prize money in SC2 before and nobody cared. Now he gets recognized much more.
Yes, nobody cared...
He is kinda right, if you ask a random SC2 player to list all the previous winners of GSL, if theyd forget one it would have been Polt.
On April 11 2012 01:53 SinCitta wrote: Polt has benefited a lot from his rivalry with Stephano. He won the tournament with the highest prize money in SC2 before and nobody cared. Now he gets recognized much more.
Yes, nobody cared...
He is kinda right, if you ask a random SC2 player to list all the previous winners of GSL, if theyd forget one it would have been Polt.
That's mostly due to the Super Tournament technically not being Code S.
On April 10 2012 08:33 Leftwing wrote: Wouldn't it be ironic if Koreans dominate the scene for the next 2-3 years, and then all of a sudden the first bonjwa of SC2 happens to be a foreigner? Calling it now.
The way the game is set up there probably won't ever be an sc2 bonjwa and goddamnit i wish people would stop using the term
And why do think you should have a say in what people say and don't. Do you own the rights to the term?
On April 10 2012 08:29 ProxyKnoxy wrote: Because they are the underdogs and it creates good storylines? Not that interesting or surprising really.
I think its interesting, because there was some talk about koreans having their pride and therefore are trying to win everything. Some people said that koreans would work together against foreigners and stuff like that...
On April 11 2012 02:24 Arceus wrote: yet another bitter thread made out inferiority complex. I doubt the Koreans gave a fuck about the so called 'interest'
When it nets them hundreds of thousands of dollars in tournament prize money, they probably give a lot of fucks.
i'm a korean who wants foreigners to win since it's more funnier. as a fan, i hope SC2 scene is getting bigger and more interesting with the competition of progamer in all over the world. most of koreans would agree with me and most of us want that foreign progamers are getting better.
On April 10 2012 08:29 ProxyKnoxy wrote: Because they are the underdogs and it creates good storylines? Not that interesting or surprising really.
I think its interesting, because there was some talk about koreans having their pride and therefore are trying to win everything. Some people said that koreans would work together against foreigners and stuff like that...
It was from Naniwa who said that.
OK, but it would be very interesting to have a Korean pro come in and confirm/deny that. But it won't happen, they are too mannered.
Right now I think the short-term solution is just to just continue doing what we're already doing...have the regional-based qualifiers, then that'll guarantee foreigner faces during the televised games.
They can also have two different streams...Tastetosis casting the foreigner stream, and Wolf/Khaldor casting the korean stream. Then once all the eliminations are done, you'll have 1 foreigner vs 1 Korean and I think this neatly solves a lot of issues.
the koreans need to adopt a foreigner and train him as one of their own, i dont see any other way in which a foreigner is gonna be able to compete with top level koreans.
In an interview after commentating WCG Korea, TheMarine [first great Terran] stated that he was shocked that two of the three Korean players got knocked out early, and that he hopes very much that Starcraft 2 can be a global esport, as Starcraft was essentially Korea-only.
On April 10 2012 08:26 GoSuChicken wrote: Source: http://www.twitch.tv/iplliveu/b/314371855 Starting @ ~38 min both aLive and Ganzi state that they want Stephano to win/do well because hes a foreigner and there are so many koreans in foreign tourneys, earlier in this vod MMA stated the same starting @~21 min.
GhostKing (Byun) as well, you can add him to the OP.
Koreans - players and fans - have always shown a lot of support for foreigners, they are excited when foreigners can put up a fight. I think that's only natural.
On April 11 2012 02:24 Arceus wrote: yet another bitter thread made out of inferiority complex. I doubt the Koreans gave a fuck about the so called 'interest'
Yeah! Those stupid Koreans don't give a fuck wether the scene lives, so that they can have a salary for a long period of time by sustaning viewers, or it dies and they've essentialy wasted years of their lives on nothing!
hello? I am korean I visited every korean community when ipl final day start They all said "fuXXing kimchi man~" as one. why? Korean dont want korean exclusive too.. when korean won, they bring up what the hell about korean win the big tournament. They dont be proud of korean winner. They didnt celebration.They all said "Fuxxing kimchi man~" repeatly to themself Some persons claimed that Code S must expand round of 36 then must invite top 4 foriener without exclude other koreans results
On April 10 2012 08:33 Leftwing wrote: Wouldn't it be ironic if Koreans dominate the scene for the next 2-3 years, and then all of a sudden the first bonjwa of SC2 happens to be a foreigner? Calling it now.
The way the game is set up there probably won't ever be an sc2 bonjwa and goddamnit i wish people would stop using the term
If Mvp would have been able to continue playing in 2012 like in 2011 I could very well see koreans calling him bonjwa.
If you remember the Blizzard cup they were all saying they hoped to see Stephano in the finals vs pretty much anyone. Stephano vs DRG, Stephano vs Mvp, Stephano vs Nestea... etc.... some also said they thought Naniwa would make it to the finals.
Well, foreigners will have to get better don´t they?
Although, why are so many people so convinced that a Korean domination will kill the foreign scene? I mean at least the top foreigners can compete unlike BW..... So it always creates this underdog story.
A bit off topic but it's from vod posted in this OP http://www.twitch.tv/iplliveu/b/314371855 at 1:37:00 MaruPrime mentions that he have pro gamer license, I was only aware that Sc:BW players have license for pro gaming after winning courage tournament, does he mean he won courage tournament or Sc2 Progamer have different pro gaming license?
...the Koreans are just being polite. Newbies to SC will get used to and appreciate that Koreans are in a league of their own. (In comparative baseball terms, Koreans are in the major league and the rest is in triple a league at best).
On April 11 2012 03:02 MLGTerraN wrote: hello? I am korean I visited every korean community when ipl final day start They all said "fuXXing kimchi man~" as one. why? Korean dont want korean exclusive too.. when korean won, they bring up what the hell about korean win the big tournament. They dont be proud of korean winner. They didnt celebration.They all said "Fuxxing kimchi man~" repeatly to themself Some persons claimed that Code S must expand round of 36 then must invite top 4 foriener without exclude other koreans results
haha nice :p
i guess seeing the same faces for 10 years can be boring
It's all about the money. Foreign winners = global interest. Global interest = wealthy global sponsors. Global interest = more viewers = more advertising money.
On April 11 2012 03:02 MLGTerraN wrote: hello? I am korean I visited every korean community when ipl final day start They all said "fuXXing kimchi man~" as one. why? Korean dont want korean exclusive too.. when korean won, they bring up what the hell about korean win the big tournament. They dont be proud of korean winner. They didnt celebration.They all said "Fuxxing kimchi man~" repeatly to themself Some persons claimed that Code S must expand round of 36 then must invite top 4 foriener without exclude other koreans results
On April 11 2012 03:02 MLGTerraN wrote: hello? I am korean I visited every korean community when ipl final day start They all said "fuXXing kimchi man~" as one. why? Korean dont want korean exclusive too.. when korean won, they bring up what the hell about korean win the big tournament. They dont be proud of korean winner. They didnt celebration.They all said "Fuxxing kimchi man~" repeatly to themself Some persons claimed that Code S must expand round of 36 then must invite top 4 foriener without exclude other koreans results
Could you explain was "kimchi" is?
Very tasty, often spicy, pickled/fermented vegetable often Cabbage and Nappa. I enjoy it its a korean side dish
On April 11 2012 02:24 Arceus wrote: yet another bitter thread made out of inferiority complex. I doubt the Koreans gave a fuck about the so called 'interest'
Yeah! Those stupid Koreans don't give a fuck wether the scene lives, so that they can have a salary for a long period of time by sustaning viewers, or it dies and they've essentialy wasted years of their lives on nothing!
Right? YEAH!!!
come on man It's not like they are invited over to SOTG to give some deeply thoughtful insight about the scene. They were grabbed in the middle of nowhere to give some one word answers. They would probably say whatever cool things popping up in their mind in those situations. And like someone said above, It's naturally exciting if foreigners manage to put up a decent fight. America really enjoyed Dirk Nowitzki dominating the court and winning a ring, didnt they?
But hey, take it seriously if these stuffs ever make you bitter fans somehow better about the future of foreigners. Go ahead make another thread lulz
On April 10 2012 08:33 Leftwing wrote: Wouldn't it be ironic if Koreans dominate the scene for the next 2-3 years, and then all of a sudden the first bonjwa of SC2 happens to be a foreigner? Calling it now.
The way the game is set up there probably won't ever be an sc2 bonjwa and goddamnit i wish people would stop using the term
We have had players with >90% winrates at some points and the only reason why they no longer have those is the fact that the game is still a lot more unexplored then most people want to admit and the metagame switches around atleast every other month.
On April 11 2012 03:02 MLGTerraN wrote: hello? I am korean I visited every korean community when ipl final day start They all said "fuXXing kimchi man~" as one. why? Korean dont want korean exclusive too.. when korean won, they bring up what the hell about korean win the big tournament. They dont be proud of korean winner. They didnt celebration.They all said "Fuxxing kimchi man~" repeatly to themself Some persons claimed that Code S must expand round of 36 then must invite top 4 foriener without exclude other koreans results
On April 11 2012 03:02 MLGTerraN wrote: hello? I am korean I visited every korean community when ipl final day start They all said "fuXXing kimchi man~" as one. why? Korean dont want korean exclusive too.. when korean won, they bring up what the hell about korean win the big tournament. They dont be proud of korean winner. They didnt celebration.They all said "Fuxxing kimchi man~" repeatly to themself Some persons claimed that Code S must expand round of 36 then must invite top 4 foriener without exclude other koreans results
Could you explain was "kimchi" is?
PANCAKES! :D
No but seriously it's a type of korean food, though idk what it means in this sentence lol
I sensed that there has been genuine interest and hope for foreigners to do well in korean community. Sure it's hard to say it isnt about money but noone wouldnt want to see SC2 going global and getting bigger. To say they are only saying that to be polite or for money is pretty closed minded prejudice.
As for Naniwa episode, I think it is pretty evident that it has to do more with Naniwa than him being a foreigner.
On April 11 2012 02:24 Arceus wrote: yet another bitter thread made out of inferiority complex. I doubt the Koreans gave a fuck about the so called 'interest'
Yeah! Those stupid Koreans don't give a fuck wether the scene lives, so that they can have a salary for a long period of time by sustaning viewers, or it dies and they've essentialy wasted years of their lives on nothing!
Right? YEAH!!!
come on man It's not like they are invited over to SOTG to give some deeply thoughtful insight about the scene. They were grabbed in the middle of nowhere to give some one word answers. They would probably say whatever cool things popping up in their mind in those situations. And like someone said above, It's naturally exciting if foreigners manage to put up a decent fight. America really enjoyed Dirk Nowitzki dominating the court and winning a ring, didnt they?
But hey, take it seriously if these stuffs ever make you bitter fans somehow better about the future of foreigners. Go ahead make another thread lulz
I actually don't know if you realized that I was sarcastic, if you are sarcastic... i'm mindfucked by your post.
Maybe they just like us the way we like them? There is a lot of that in other communities too (JDM/USDM tuning scenes for example).
And in many respects, the foreigners they face are a bit like them (WC3 players, B/practice team/semi-pro BW players). Everyone benefits from a united front when the Proleague BW guys come knocking.
Probably because for koreans abroad it´s just a new place, but not new opponents.
"GSL, but somewhere on the other side of the globe" lends itself to the question why people not just hold the tournament in korea in the first place. I know I would scratch my head if I would fly to Hawaii and proceed to play against only people that live next door.
That's interesting. I think they understand that a lot of foreigners practice really hard and there are clearly some who are better than your average "pro" Korean. I think it's just a mutual respect thing and they don't want to lose the growing relationship between the two communities. It benefits both the Korean and foreign communities if the two come together, so yeah, it makes sense that they would want to see a foreigner win, especially one that really deserves it.
But naniwas experience in korea isn't indicitive of every foreigners, firstly, Naniwa himself ever says that the people he's on a team with, startale, will not leak his replays. Leaking replays from your teammates is a cardinal sin in korea, i remember when ret went to korea, just because he was seen chatting to friends over b.net while watching a replay was enough to almost get him kicked out of the team. Koreans do not share their teammates replays, mabye if nestea hits naniwa on ladder and naniwa does an odd timing, then nestea will share it with his teammates, but if naniwa is in the startale house, then his inhouse practice partners won't share his builds.
Secondly, naniwa and his attitude of "results/skill is all that matters" where he feels that manner or respect arn't that important (see his response to the korean response to his probe rush) clashes strongly with the koreans who often actively apologise in interviews if they feel they won doing an overpowwered build or boring/cheesey play because they feel bad.
If you look back at when nony and idra were in korea, as far as i can tell they had the full support of their korean teammates (this is broodwar, and nony's team was apparently incredibly friendly, helpful and would not try to "spite" him by helping his opponents)
Also look at the relationship between liquid and ogs, they support each other, avenge each other and give each other tips in gsl. (i think Mc wore a huk shirt in a game where he was playing the person who knocked huk out of gsl or something way back) this is not the attitude that naniwa describes at all. I think naniwa's case is more that his personality doesn't mesh with the koreans, and theirs don't mesh with him, so they don't get along. Hence he doesn't have the best experience working with them. Naniwa's experience is not evidence of some "korean vs the world" syndrome, if anything its "a small group of korean friends helping each other against someone they don't know"...
On April 11 2012 02:24 Arceus wrote: yet another bitter thread made out of inferiority complex. I doubt the Koreans gave a fuck about the so called 'interest'
Yeah! Those stupid Koreans don't give a fuck wether the scene lives, so that they can have a salary for a long period of time by sustaning viewers, or it dies and they've essentialy wasted years of their lives on nothing!
Right? YEAH!!!
come on man It's not like they are invited over to SOTG to give some deeply thoughtful insight about the scene. They were grabbed in the middle of nowhere to give some one word answers. They would probably say whatever cool things popping up in their mind in those situations. And like someone said above, It's naturally exciting if foreigners manage to put up a decent fight. America really enjoyed Dirk Nowitzki dominating the court and winning a ring, didnt they?
But hey, take it seriously if these stuffs ever make you bitter fans somehow better about the future of foreigners. Go ahead make another thread lulz
I actually don't know if you realized that I was sarcastic, if you are sarcastic... i'm mindfucked by your post.
I'm not sure who is being sarcastic and who isn't either, but tell me that boxer and iloveoov don't care about the esports scene as a whole
^^ their response to an event which a player placed personal gain above the good of esports as a whole.
Man, I knew of this for long time but I didn't say it here because it might have started a shitstorm. As a Korean, I can confirm this. Even Koreans are sick of Korean players winning everything. We always cheer for foreigners when they're playing, except Naniwa.
On April 11 2012 07:39 Ksquared wrote: Nobody wants Sc2 to become a game where only Koreans play.
who are you speaking for?
I just want the best of the best to come out and show me higher levels of SC2..I am very frustrated that the Chinese and Japanese do not play with same level of Fervor and dedication as the Koreans do. I am also expecting some scandanavian to take this game seriously and kick all of the Korean player's tails. Because Scandanavia has a ridiculous talent pool to select from. That is, if E-sports was truly one of the major sports in the world.
If players can make Millions of dollars playing an Online sport, you will see the Cream rise to the top in every country. That will start the slow transition to National Parity to SC2 or LoL
But, slowly but surely, e-sports will become as big as Football. It is just a matter of time.
Historicly it in fact really show how just hyper far ahead korean bw players were (are) compared to foreigners and now are quite happy to see a few of them able to give them a hard time on sc2 for the moment. its just insane.
Duh, foreigners win --> foreigner interest doesn't die --> foreign tourney's continue --> more money to be spread around --> Koreans have more opportunities for prize money --> additionally, stable employment for all.
If a foreigner never wins another major tourney, the foreign scene will probably die just like in Brood war. But Huk cracking the final eight every time will probably prolong things.
On April 11 2012 07:29 JiPrime wrote: Man, I knew of this for long time but I didn't say it here because it might have started a shitstorm. As a Korean, I can confirm this. Even Koreans are sick of Korean players winning everything. We always cheer for foreigners when they're playing, except Naniwa.
Lol.Well, thats what Naniwa gets for being a jerk XD.
i'm rooting for foreigners, i'm hoping for a foreigner champ at gsl, preferably canadian, i'm looking at you huk. i'm patiently waiting for the second coming of giyom.
i also enjoy the korean domination, but that doesnt mean i want foreigners to do bad, its the opposite.
Part of it is likely them being polite. Another is the fact that people lose interest when the final 8 of most of these major LANs is pretty much all korean. I watch GSL for sick koreans I want to see other players shine in other leagues. People lose interest, and soon people won't want to watch many non korean tournaments and sponsors will drop, and then koreans will be stuck with just GSL, which is beyond amazingly difficult to get into and much more difficult to have good results.
I am an active user at playxp.com (korean SC community) and I can approve this message as well. Koreans do want foreingers to win. Sometimes they worry that too much korean dominance will ruin foreign E-sports community... That's why some of the fans are rooting for foreign players like stephano hardcore.
Not really all that surprising. Back in the days of Grrr and Assem, there was a huge uprising and support for them to do well by Koreans in the individual and team leagues.
Shit, even Greg got support in Korea. I don't know if I'd go as far to say that he was told by pros to "win", but he was well-liked.
I think the reason is that Koreans realize that having a foreign hope will drive competition more, and will make more tournaments, thus they will be invited to compete against the "best foreigners" more often. Seems like they are investing in the long term with this. And no, it's not meant to be sinister or evil - they genuinely like our passion and desire to succeed no matter what, which is why they always say that they love American / foreign crowds at tournaments because we cheer like apes.
How about the argument that it just makes for more diversity of players, and more self-identity players around the world can relate with. It would put the game more on par with others such as in the Olympics (or other global competitions) where there's many different sorts of countries represented.
This reason probably isn't one of the more major one though, since many of the ones mentioned fulfill more of a selfish view, and/or are have more force/realism.
On April 11 2012 08:33 wwowz wrote: I am an active user at playxp.com (korean SC community) and I can approve this message as well. Koreans do want foreingers to win. Sometimes they worry that too much korean dominance will ruin foreign E-sports community... That's why some of the fans are rooting for foreign players like stephano hardcore.
This. Many hardcore foreign fans don't seem to understand that the long-term viability of sc2 rests on the foreign community's ability to produce players that can compete at the highest levels. Without that sort of sustainability, sc2 will fade away much like quake has over the last two years.
On April 10 2012 09:15 Mohdoo wrote: Too bad their players don't. Naniwa and others have commented on how Koreans all band together and share replays to beat foreigners like Naniwa and other top players who are actually on their level. But with all of their working together, they are able to always beat foreigners just due to the fact that their replays are shared by practice partners they trusted.
okay.. thats some bullshit right there. Just because you have someones reply wont mean youll be able to outplay another. Plus watching us foreigners verses koreans shows clearly the difference in control which cant be just learned from watching replays, you're just being ignorant.
Of course Koreans want foreigners to have a little success.
SC2 isn't very popular in Korea. Maybe this will change a little with it starting on OGN etc. But that's all conjecture at this point. Foreigner money is propping up the scene at the moment, why do you think it is that GOM gives charity seeds to foreigners in the GSL? It's because they think this will help increase subscriptions if foreigners have someone to cheer for.
For me personally, I don't care where the players are from. I just enjoy the actual game. All my favourite players are Korean because they are by far the most skilled.
Personally I don't think it matters if they are koreans or not, as long as they are likable and not a "grey mouse". MC is a person everyone can like, because he is theatrical and lively. Koreans probably want the game to stay popular all over, so it's good to have different champions. Still, i don't see it happening before more korean teams pick up foreigners. Take thorzains stay, he improved so much. If he stayed a year, he would be winning tournaments left and right
On April 10 2012 08:26 GoSuChicken wrote: I dont know if this is worth a thread, but I think its quite interesting, that some koreans want to see foreigners to win tournaments like IPL4
Source: http://www.twitch.tv/iplliveu/b/314371855 Starting @ ~38 min both aLive and Ganzi state that they want Stephano to win/do well because hes a foreigner and there are so many koreans in foreign tourneys, earlier in this vod MMA stated the same starting @~21 min.
This is in my opinion very interesting since there is so much talking going on about how it sucks that foreigners arent able to compete with koreans. I see various reasons too why koreans now want foreigners to do well. One would obviously be that they're just being polite, since they're interviewed by foreigners. Another reason, and that is the interesting one for me, is that they realize that foreigners cheer more for foreign players, and that they might stop paying attention to tournaments if there are only korean players flying to for example MLG and taking top 30.
What do you guys think, why do koreans want foreigners to do well?
Did people think koreans band together to eliminate foreigners or something? EVERYONE wants players to win, it's just that foreigners aren't good enough to compete. The korean progamers aren't going to play less hard in the game just because they like white people winning. Their goal is to win too by any legal means possible.
I played high school basketball, I knew people on teams we had to play against I wanted them to win but I still played my hardest to beat them.
This is indeed the case for many many Korean SC2 fans. Stephano is a phenom over there, and Huk to a lesser extent. People find Idra rage/BM amusing to watch, but Naniwa's... not so much
My opinion is that they want foreigners to win so that the foreign scene continues to grow so that they have events to come to overseas and aren't locked up in Korea like the BW scene was. That's my hope, anyway.
In my opinion, I believe that if your on a pro team (outside or inside of korea) you should be able to win tournaments with korean invitees. Simply because...StarCraft is your job. If playing StarCraft is what you do all day everyday then you should at least be on equal footing with somebody (the koreans) who do the exact same thing. In this case, there's just no excuse for us foreigners lack of achievement whenever we attend tournaments with Korean presence.
On April 10 2012 09:15 Mohdoo wrote: Too bad their players don't. Naniwa and others have commented on how Koreans all band together and share replays to beat foreigners like Naniwa and other top players who are actually on their level. But with all of their working together, they are able to always beat foreigners just due to the fact that their replays are shared by practice partners they trusted.
okay.. thats some bullshit right there. Just because you have someones reply wont mean youll be able to outplay another. Plus watching us foreigners verses koreans shows clearly the difference in control which cant be just learned from watching replays, you're just being ignorant.
It couldn't have gotten more BS than your post actually. GSL is a league where prepared builds matter the most, if a replay of your build is leaked 2 days prior to the groups are supposed to play, you're essentially fucked since your opponent can prepare a counter build.
Iccup = A+ - all Korean A - all Korean A- - one foreigner with like 400 games, rest Korean with like 70 games B+ - all korean B - couple foreigners etc etc etc..
On April 11 2012 09:40 Frogsox wrote: My opinion is that they want foreigners to win so that the foreign scene continues to grow so that they have events to come to overseas and aren't locked up in Korea like the BW scene was. That's my hope, anyway.
you are absolutely right. Often the posts on playxp.com (again korean SC community) suggests that SC2 is a "failure" by Blizzard as it isn't so much popular in Korea (which is unrepresentative decision). Many people are afraid that if foreign players are done with competing against Koreans, SC2 scene will fall miserably and the hope of becoming globla E sport will be over.
On April 11 2012 09:43 basballguy wrote: so tired of being referred to as a "foriegner" on a game that was originally developed by a US company for the US market.
I'm sure that's been beaten down plenty times already though....
nonetheless, it makes sense (what the koreans say)
lol, off topic, I saw naniwa's name a few threads ago and I finally remembered something, do you guys remember the prison break character haywire? LOL, he fucking looks like him, I swear.
If Koreans, generally speaking, want to see foreigners at the top of the podium why aren't they picking up foreigners in their rosters. The globalization in starcraft 2 has come from the western teams and not the Korean teams. The Gom TV house has had a terrible practice environment and the seeds to GSL is just to make fool of the Westerners. I have a hard time to see any positive interaction from Koreans that has benefited the western scene. The OGS+TL, Slayers+EG and ST+Quantic came to be by nagging foreigners and not by generous Koreans. The entire SC2 Korean scene (GSL) was initiated by Blizzard and i can go on and on. The world tournament that was held with a team match and a regular single elimination bracket didn't help the western scene at all. That tournament was created so that the viewership would go up, spur interest and so that the GSL could maintain itself economically by foreigner money. That's my 0.02$
While fans will all admit - we want to watch a championship bout with greatness, amazing plays etc - we all want to root for our favorite players. A good number of those players are non-koreans. We also like to watch and root for our countrymen, and hope they do well.
I won't say that people are racist - but we do like to cheer for a countryman - to boast that their country represented well at a tournement and bested the others.
This means, that viewerships go up and down based on how many non-Koreans remain or are involved in a tournament. If a single foreigner remains, viewership stays to a degree - fans will change allegiance and will root for an underdog or not their typical player - and root for that single remaining player amongst the Sc2 gods from Korea.
Ultimately, and I wish I had the numbers and stats for IPL4 and other recent tourneys- if the Player pool is all from a single country - foreigner viewership might fall quite a bit. Possibly enormously so. If that was to occur quite a few times in a single year, and viewer statistics being the source of commercial sponsorships - tournaments and prize pools might dry up.
It is without question that the best paying and successful tournament are outside the GSL. The GSL takes an enormous commitment from a player to residing in Korea, and only able to leave during down time or if that player is knocked out of the GSL as that tournament continues. The same player can make equal or greater compensation with a good finish at a weekend long tournament - 1 month+ static commitment, or tour the world and a 3 day commitment - it is easy math to see where the money is.
So, for non-Korean tournaments to continue - viewerships need to stay up, and stay consistent or on the rise continuously.
On April 11 2012 09:43 basballguy wrote: so tired of being referred to as a "foriegner" on a game that was originally developed by a US company for the US market.
I'm sure that's been beaten down plenty times already though....
nonetheless, it makes sense (what the koreans say)
Are you sure about it being developed for the US market? I've never heard about this. I think blizzard was aiming at a global market. It would be kinda strange if they weren't.
On April 11 2012 10:00 archonOOid wrote: If Koreans, generally speaking, want to see foreigners at the top of the podium why aren't they picking up foreigners in their rosters. The globalization in starcraft 2 has come from the western teams and not the Korean teams. The Gom TV house has had a terrible practice environment and the seeds to GSL is just to make fool of the Westerners. I have a hard time to see any positive interaction from Koreans that has benefited the western scene. The OGS+TL, Slayers+EG and ST+Quantic came to be by nagging foreigners and not by generous Koreans. The entire SC2 Korean scene (GSL) was initiated by Blizzard and i can go on and on. The world tournament that was held with a team match and a regular single elimination bracket didn't help the western scene at all. That tournament was created so that the viewership would go up, spur interest and so that the GSL could maintain itself economically by foreigner money. That's my 0.02$
This makes no sense. You want them to pick up unknown foreigners add them to their team/house including a translator cause the foreigners can't win on their own?
On April 11 2012 10:00 archonOOid wrote: If Koreans, generally speaking, want to see foreigners at the top of the podium why aren't they picking up foreigners in their rosters. The globalization in starcraft 2 has come from the western teams and not the Korean teams. The Gom TV house has had a terrible practice environment and the seeds to GSL is just to make fool of the Westerners. I have a hard time to see any positive interaction from Koreans that has benefited the western scene. The OGS+TL, Slayers+EG and ST+Quantic came to be by nagging foreigners and not by generous Koreans. The entire SC2 Korean scene (GSL) was initiated by Blizzard and i can go on and on. The world tournament that was held with a team match and a regular single elimination bracket didn't help the western scene at all. That tournament was created so that the viewership would go up, spur interest and so that the GSL could maintain itself economically by foreigner money. That's my 0.02$
This makes no sense. You want them to pick up unknown foreigners add them to their team/house including a translator cause the foreigners can't win on their own?
Not at all - more that team house training was initiated by the non-koreans, and not initiated by the teams. Further, they are joint team ventures, I off the top of my head cannot think of a foreign player straight up recruited long term by a Korean team.
On April 11 2012 09:10 emc wrote: stephano does beat koreans, he's done it before maybe they weren't paying attention
I think they want more then 1 person tough...
he's won IPL twice? he beat polt in lone star awhile back? he wins plenty.
i see what you meant... well we aren't going to have more foreigners win anything unless they get their act together
they must be getting sick of winning everything. the foreign tournaments will continue to go on as long as the koreans are willing to travel which they are, koreans bring crowds to tournaments whether you believe that or not.
On April 11 2012 09:10 emc wrote: stephano does beat koreans, he's done it before maybe they weren't paying attention
I think they want more then 1 person tough...
he's won IPL twice? he beat polt in lone star awhile back? he wins plenty.
I don't wanna be the rude but that is still 1 person...
sure but whats the difference between 1 korean winning everything and multiple koreans winning everything? they are still korean. I see it the same way for foreigners, if stephano is winning everything then that's good enough for me to realize we have a chance. I don't care if idra was winning or if stephano was winning or if they both were, they are foreigners and that's enough for me.
I think Koreans realize that we are just players, and national ties mean little when you're playing a player in Starcraft or watching a player in one sense (although it is quite fun to root for USA ) But seriously, encouraging all players to do well is a great tradition IMO, and especially raises people's spirits and dedication to become a great SC2 pro player.
because if this keeps up, in 1 year, the sc2 scene will start to resemble BW and the foreign fanbase will move on to the next shiny new game. yeah, there are some of us who aren't that shallow - a minority, look at the BW section now.
On April 11 2012 09:10 emc wrote: stephano does beat koreans, he's done it before maybe they weren't paying attention
I think they want more then 1 person tough...
he's won IPL twice? he beat polt in lone star awhile back? he wins plenty.
I don't wanna be the rude but that is still 1 person...
sure but whats the difference between 1 korean winning everything and multiple koreans winning everything? they are still korean. I see it the same way for foreigners, if stephano is winning everything then that's good enough for me to realize we have a chance. I don't care if idra was winning or if stephano was winning or if they both were, they are foreigners and that's enough for me.
Except that the main point here. There is not 1 korean winning everything ever since MVP his wrists got worse. The one that looked that way was MKP and he didn't for IPL. You need depth to compete. What you gonne do when Stephano retires? Wait for the next one foreigner in the hope he arises to combat the swarm of koreans?
On April 11 2012 09:10 emc wrote: stephano does beat koreans, he's done it before maybe they weren't paying attention
I think they want more then 1 person tough...
he's won IPL twice? he beat polt in lone star awhile back? he wins plenty.
i see what you meant... well we aren't going to have more foreigners win anything unless they get their act together
they must be getting sick of winning everything. the foreign tournaments will continue to go on as long as the koreans are willing to travel which they are, koreans bring crowds to tournaments whether you believe that or not.
On April 11 2012 09:10 emc wrote: stephano does beat koreans, he's done it before maybe they weren't paying attention
I think they want more then 1 person tough...
he's won IPL twice? he beat polt in lone star awhile back? he wins plenty.
I don't wanna be the rude but that is still 1 person...
sure but whats the difference between 1 korean winning everything and multiple koreans winning everything? they are still korean. I see it the same way for foreigners, if stephano is winning everything then that's good enough for me to realize we have a chance. I don't care if idra was winning or if stephano was winning or if they both were, they are foreigners and that's enough for me.
Except that the main point here. There is not 1 korean winning everything ever since MVP his wrists got worse. The one that looked that way was MKP and he didn't for IPL. You need depth to compete. What you gonne do when Stephano retires? Wait for the next one foreigner in the hope he arises to combat the swarm of koreans?
what else can you do but wait for someone else to shine? what do you want me to say? if all we get is one foreigner who can beat koreans than so be it, it's not my fault and it's not the koreans, it's the rest of the foreign players. My point is that whats the difference between MKP winning everything and MVP winning everything or 1,000 different koreans winning everything? they are still korean and are still dominating. At least we have a foreigner who can actually make top 8 consistently and even win tournaments. Sure more foreigners winning would be great, but it's not necessary for foreign events to continue because koreans draw the crowds to the events because they bring the best games. I just want GOOD games, and whether it's all koreans, all foreigners or a combination giving the games then I don't care.
we're all spectators here and I find it funny we get threads like these daily about "how do we get better in the foreign scene etc. etc." let the pros figure that out, it's not really up to us whether the pros win their games. So can we just stop with this korea vs foreigners bull crap? I'm more interested in the players, not their country. If foreigners want to win then it's up to them.
On April 10 2012 09:26 jinorazi wrote: i'm sure everyone wants to move away from the bw stigma (white people suck) except whitera, he beat boxer *nod*
So did G5. Also, Ret took a game off Nada in BW, too.
I think even some foreigner at WCG within the last couple years took down Jaedong in a game with Bio/mech.
that was bratok
jd gave him way too much credit iirc when i watched the rep jd had enough shit to break him. maybe not enough vs korean micro, but probably vs foreigner.
On April 10 2012 08:37 Blade Fox wrote: Well just ask yourself if you're a non-korean, "If a non-korean wins is it more imprinted on my mind than if another korean wins?"
The answer is most likely yes I remember Huk winning tournaments more than I do a korean winning a tournament. Or I remember Naniwa almost beating all the koreans at an MLG last year than I really cared about Leenock winning.
It generates more interest more competition is always funner than less for the competitive minded. I imagine if foreigners were dominating over koreans they'd say the same thing if you look at it that way.
Or I guess it could just be PR. Derp.
Not even a little bit. I remember my favourite players winning more than whether a foreigner or a Korean wins. If it isn't one of my favourite players, I probably don't care unless the games were amazing. I'm not into all this "we need more good foreigners" business. I'm more interested in seeing awesome games. If it's Koreans bringing it, then I'll cheer for them. Same with foreigners.
Koreans want more viewers because more viewers = more money. If the entire SC2 scene is nothing but Koreans, then there will be a huge decrease in foreigner viewers. This has nothing to do with Korean's actually 'caring' whether or not foreigners are in a tournament or not. The care is in the money.
On April 11 2012 10:00 archonOOid wrote: If Koreans, generally speaking, want to see foreigners at the top of the podium why aren't they picking up foreigners in their rosters. The globalization in starcraft 2 has come from the western teams and not the Korean teams. The Gom TV house has had a terrible practice environment and the seeds to GSL is just to make fool of the Westerners. I have a hard time to see any positive interaction from Koreans that has benefited the western scene. The OGS+TL, Slayers+EG and ST+Quantic came to be by nagging foreigners and not by generous Koreans. The entire SC2 Korean scene (GSL) was initiated by Blizzard and i can go on and on. The world tournament that was held with a team match and a regular single elimination bracket didn't help the western scene at all. That tournament was created so that the viewership would go up, spur interest and so that the GSL could maintain itself economically by foreigner money. That's my 0.02$
This makes no sense. You want them to pick up unknown foreigners add them to their team/house including a translator cause the foreigners can't win on their own?
Not at all - more that team house training was initiated by the non-koreans, and not initiated by the teams. Further, they are joint team ventures, I off the top of my head cannot think of a foreign player straight up recruited long term by a Korean team.
IM picked up Fenix to exactly what you're saying. He kept dropping out of tournaments due to a health problem that wasn't revealed to the general public and finally went home to South American later on.
If you're looking at nani's view of Koreans vs Foreigners, it's most likely way wrong. Koreans loved HuK, IdrA, and Stephano. They just don't seem to like Naniwa much.
On April 10 2012 09:26 jinorazi wrote: i'm sure everyone wants to move away from the bw stigma (white people suck) except whitera, he beat boxer *nod*
So did G5. Also, Ret took a game off Nada in BW, too.
I think even some foreigner at WCG within the last couple years took down Jaedong in a game with Bio/mech.
that was bratok
jd gave him way too much credit iirc when i watched the rep jd had enough shit to break him. maybe not enough vs korean micro, but probably vs foreigner.
On April 11 2012 12:44 Coated wrote: This has nothing to do with Korean's actually 'caring' whether or not foreigners are in a tournament or not. The care is in the money.
what makes you think koreans dont care about foreingers?
I dont know which MLG was it but I once vistied playXP and google translated couple long winded thread. It seemed they genuinely cared about other players.
Also I remember reading few of Milkis translated reaction from playXP and I've sensed none of malicious intent when talking amongst themselves.
They don't want them to win they want to gain viewers for the game as a whole. People are quickly losing interest in sc2 but what generates a TON of viewers is non-korean players (honeslty have no idea why, there are no foreigners that i tune in just to see (no offense at all). but i will tune in to watch MKP or MMA play. two huge superstars. watching idra fumble around is not nearly as great as watching MKP split units vs storms/banelings or w/e)
Koreans are identifying that what happened in brood war is happening in sc2. I am not saying this is why they are supporting stephano specifically, but it would be the reason they want foreigners to compete.
On April 10 2012 09:26 jinorazi wrote: i'm sure everyone wants to move away from the bw stigma (white people suck) except whitera, he beat boxer *nod*
So did G5. Also, Ret took a game off Nada in BW, too.
I think even some foreigner at WCG within the last couple years took down Jaedong in a game with Bio/mech.
that was bratok
jd gave him way too much credit iirc when i watched the rep jd had enough shit to break him. maybe not enough vs korean micro, but probably vs foreigner.
Thought it was Advokate?
It was Advokate.
Actually foreigners won over 50 official games to Korean progamers, but all in all, it's like 1% of the games played :D
If foreigners can't win any kinds of tournements that basically mean the death of the foreign scene in the long run. I like watching Korean's as much as the next person but you need the local heros to keep the interest going. You need a swede having a shot at doing well at dreamhack, you need a idra to be competitive at a MLG and so on. I can't see it being sustainable having Korean roflstomp all non-Koreans in all tournaments. In that case it will slowly revert to us having mostly GSL/Korean events with less and less international events. It can probably find a market but it will certainly not grow esports.
On April 11 2012 21:17 gruff wrote: you need a idra to be competitive at a MLG and so on
Good luck with that
Anyway I really don't think that the dominance of korean players is gonna have the same effect on SC2 that it had on BW. Times aren't the same, means aren't the same too. Anyone everywhere in the world can nowadays easily get access to any stream in English (the most international language). You can even watch most pro gamers streaming their ladder sessions. If the best competitions involve korean players, people will simply follow these regardless of the origins of each players. As the market is gaining in maturity, I think so are the viewers (a little at least). I believe that SC2 on the international e-sport scene is getting big enough and recognized enough so that viewer are now mostly looking for the best possible competitiveness rather than seeing local heroes rise.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying local heroes rising is pointless, it's good for local scenes to have these but considering the big international events, people will (this is only my opinion) enjoy watching the best possible confrontation rather than watching X from USA playing against Y from Nepal only because they're from Nepal. I know I'm not the only one who skipped most of Idra's game during IPL4 because I just didn't expect a great spectacle from it. Instead I watched Koreans VS Koreans games or Stephano's games because I thought it would be more entertaining to see the very best of the bests playing, rather than a very good player who gets stomped (sorry but that's what happened) by the bests.
On April 11 2012 10:31 shadymmj wrote: because if this keeps up, in 1 year, the sc2 scene will start to resemble BW and the foreign fanbase will move on to the next shiny new game. yeah, there are some of us who aren't that shallow - a minority, look at the BW section now.
I believe this to be the case too. If Foreign players never win any prize money, it will be harder for foreign pro-gamers to make a living. The foreign fans will drift away because they will have less interest in Foreign Tournaments with little or no Foreign participation in the end-stages. The number of Foreign Tournaments will diminish as the fans drift away. The Foreign Scene will die or continue on in a much diminished way.
If things continue we could see a situation comparable to BW where it is not viable to be a Foreign pro-gamer because there are no Foreign tournaments and you have to go to Korea or play one Tournament a year.
I think the Foreign teams need to operate in a similar way to Korean teams, with daily mini-leagues and group analysis sessions to break down opponent's styles of play and work out optimal counter-builds. I don't see that organised and rigourous approach in Foreign teams. EG is probably closest, but even they have players living in different continents.
The Korean Teams give their members high-level practice partners and a support network for analysing and exploiting their opponents weaknesses and identifying and improving their own weaknesses. I don't see Millenium doing any of that for Stephano. From what I can see Stephano has to just ladder and play custom games with his friends such as Mana, Thorzain and Bling. He does not have a team who helps analyse future opponents like MMA and work out possible strategies. His friends might help him do that of course, but that is not an organised effort coming from within his team. Maybe I am wrong and Millenium do have these analysis sessions 'off the grid' but it does not seem that way.
Until the Foreign Teams re-organize and give their players the same help that Korean teams do, I think it will be really difficult for Foreign players to go up a level.
some of the new guys/girls if they put in work could threaten the korean domination, people like Scarlett illusion etc but the old guard, idra incontrol huk thorzain naniwa etc haven't got a chance imo otherwise they would have proven themselves by now
On April 11 2012 22:04 mememolly wrote: some of the new guys/girls if they put in work could threaten the korean domination, people like Scarlett illusion etc but the old guard, idra incontrol huk thorzain naniwa etc haven't got a chance imo otherwise they would have proven themselves by now
I guess you know everything about GSL since you've been there so many times and practiced there. Right? You clearly have no clue.
There's koreans practicing just as hard as these foreign players you mentioned who haven't been able to do well in Code-S eihter. It's not just something you show up to and win on your first try. Try to understand the extreme amount of talent that participates there and evaluate your opinions.
I think incorporating Koreans into foreign teams should help in terms of practice habits and regiments. Probably could also use some coaches. Given how much money there is in the foreign tournament scene, surely there'd be enough money in terms of player development. Otherwise, I can't see how one can reduce the Korean vs Foreigner gap in the near future.
do soccer players or musicians play for money? or do they do it because they love it, and try to make a living off of it if possible. other responsibilities and/or market availability will force their decision but their passion comes before their need for money.
so talks of "foreigners have no chance of winning so why would they continue" i dont think is a legitimate excuse, an excuse but not legitimate enough to earn sympathy.
foreign teams NEED korean coach/players in their environment. look at all pro sports, such as korean football using dutch coaches and american speed skating using korean coaches. as a stepping stone for further improvement. (many teams are obviously doing this, not to win but to improve)
On April 12 2012 12:08 jinorazi wrote: do soccer players or musicians play for money? or do they do it because they love it, and try to make a living off of it if possible. other responsibilities and/or market availability will force their decision but their passion comes before their need for money.
so talks of "foreigners have no chance of winning so why would they continue" i dont think is a legitimate excuse, an excuse but not legitimate, enough to earn sympathy.
foreign teams NEED korean coach/players in their environment. look at all pro sports, such as korean football using dutch coaches and american speed skating using korean coaches. as a stepping stone for further improvement. (many teams are obviously doing this, not to win but to improve)
How can the cash cow continue to feed the Koreans if they beat the cow to death? They know foreign tournaments will die if the Koreans keep winning them.
On April 12 2012 12:08 jinorazi wrote: do soccer players or musicians play for money? or do they do it because they love it, and try to make a living off of it if possible. other responsibilities and/or market availability will force their decision but their passion comes before their need for money.
so talks of "foreigners have no chance of winning so why would they continue" i dont think is a legitimate excuse, an excuse but not legitimate, enough to earn sympathy.
foreign teams NEED korean coach/players in their environment. look at all pro sports, such as korean football using dutch coaches and american speed skating using korean coaches. as a stepping stone for further improvement. (many teams are obviously doing this, not to win but to improve)
What they need is better discipline. -__-
or coach(one who can 'bitch slap' players that needs it, or with...love/care?), to put it simply.
On April 11 2012 21:40 tymt wrote: good thing naniwa will win code s season 2 then.
I can see him getting out of his group ez-pz. I mean look at it, it's 2 people who should be in code B and Puzzle. Naniwa should get out easily. I like both Ryung and MVP, but they're not anywhere near Naniwa's level at the moment, I don't see MVP even staying in code A next season. However, the rest of the tournament is pretty difficult. Oz, Parting, Hero, Genius all have pretty sick PvPs any of them can end his run as soon as the first thing goes wrong.
On April 11 2012 21:40 tymt wrote: good thing naniwa will win code s season 2 then.
I can see him getting out of his group ez-pz. I mean look at it, it's 2 people who should be in code B and Puzzle. Naniwa should get out easily. I like both Ryung and MVP, but they're not anywhere near Naniwa's level at the moment, I don't see MVP even staying in code A next season. However, the rest of the tournament is pretty difficult. Oz, Parting, Hero, Genius all have pretty sick PvPs any of them can end his run as soon as the first thing goes wrong.
I think you may be overstating Nani's abilities just a tad. I think it will be a major accomplishment just to get out of that group. Saying MVP and Ryung should be in code B... I'm not sure I agree with you there. If MVP is healthy he is a monster. I think you're being harsh on Ryung, although TvP is his worst match up.
I'm hoping that a foreigner steps up and really competes with the Koreans soon, but I'm not pinning my hopes on Naniwa.
On April 11 2012 21:40 tymt wrote: good thing naniwa will win code s season 2 then.
I can see him getting out of his group ez-pz. I mean look at it, it's 2 people who should be in code B and Puzzle. Naniwa should get out easily. I like both Ryung and MVP, but they're not anywhere near Naniwa's level at the moment, I don't see MVP even staying in code A next season. However, the rest of the tournament is pretty difficult. Oz, Parting, Hero, Genius all have pretty sick PvPs any of them can end his run as soon as the first thing goes wrong.
Are you serious? Mvp got straight back into Code S this season and beat some pretty good players to do so.
On April 11 2012 21:40 tymt wrote: good thing naniwa will win code s season 2 then.
I can see him getting out of his group ez-pz. I mean look at it, it's 2 people who should be in code B and Puzzle. Naniwa should get out easily. I like both Ryung and MVP, but they're not anywhere near Naniwa's level at the moment, I don't see MVP even staying in code A next season. However, the rest of the tournament is pretty difficult. Oz, Parting, Hero, Genius all have pretty sick PvPs any of them can end his run as soon as the first thing goes wrong.
Are you serious? Mvp got straight back into Code S this season and beat some pretty good players to do so.
On April 11 2012 21:40 tymt wrote: good thing naniwa will win code s season 2 then.
I can see him getting out of his group ez-pz. I mean look at it, it's 2 people who should be in code B and Puzzle. Naniwa should get out easily. I like both Ryung and MVP, but they're not anywhere near Naniwa's level at the moment, I don't see MVP even staying in code A next season. However, the rest of the tournament is pretty difficult. Oz, Parting, Hero, Genius all have pretty sick PvPs any of them can end his run as soon as the first thing goes wrong.
Are you serious? Mvp got straight back into Code S this season and beat some pretty good players to do so.
2-1 Sniper... some pretty good players?
This and IdrA recently making him look like a noob. Also, those games v gumiho last season showed exactly how far he's fallen. His control is nothing impressive due to his wrist problems, and losing to a bunch of landed vikings 3 games in 1 day shows his strategic skill has fallen off greatly.
They know that if the foreigner community continues to post lackluster results and continues falling behind in skill then the foreigner market is going to continue to fade.
On April 11 2012 21:40 tymt wrote: good thing naniwa will win code s season 2 then.
I can see him getting out of his group ez-pz. I mean look at it, it's 2 people who should be in code B and Puzzle. Naniwa should get out easily. I like both Ryung and MVP, but they're not anywhere near Naniwa's level at the moment, I don't see MVP even staying in code A next season. However, the rest of the tournament is pretty difficult. Oz, Parting, Hero, Genius all have pretty sick PvPs any of them can end his run as soon as the first thing goes wrong.
Are you serious? Mvp got straight back into Code S this season and beat some pretty good players to do so.
2-1 Sniper... some pretty good players?
This and IdrA recently making him look like a noob. Also, those games v gumiho last season showed exactly how far he's fallen. His control is nothing impressive due to his wrist problems, and losing to a bunch of landed vikings 3 games in 1 day shows his strategic skill has fallen off greatly.
Yeah, it pains me to see him play badly because of the injury. Sigh, I wish he could get a surgery like Flash did but that would cost a fortune... Or maybe he needs to use his "GSL Saving" to pay for that.
On the other hand, he might not want to undergoes a surgery because he would have an excuse for not going to a military (well at least in Thailand if you are injured like that you can avoid conscription).
It's not that weird to me that some Koreans want foreigners to win tournaments. Just think it for a bit that there was some sports or activity that was somewhat global, but certain one country always wins everything related to it. It's far more boring even for the winning country compared to a situation where the competition is evenly distributed among the part taking countries.
It's also a direct link to the financial success. The more global interest there is, the better the sports fare. It'd be totally weird if the korean pro gamers didn't wish for foreigners to do well. It's also totally reasonable that they still strive for winning.
On April 10 2012 08:28 Timurid wrote: Tired of facing the same people lol.
I never actually thought about this o.o If you're in GSL Code S, you only play the usual 31 people over and over. Some variation but most of them are the same and you probably meet them on ladder as well (maybe you don't know it's them, but on one of their many "smurf" accounts lol). Even with people dropping out of Code S, it's still very slow finding new people to play against.
On April 11 2012 21:40 tymt wrote: good thing naniwa will win code s season 2 then.
I can see him getting out of his group ez-pz. I mean look at it, it's 2 people who should be in code B and Puzzle. Naniwa should get out easily. I like both Ryung and MVP, but they're not anywhere near Naniwa's level at the moment, I don't see MVP even staying in code A next season. However, the rest of the tournament is pretty difficult. Oz, Parting, Hero, Genius all have pretty sick PvPs any of them can end his run as soon as the first thing goes wrong.
I think naniwa should be in code b as well by that standard.
On April 11 2012 10:28 Killcycle wrote: I hate the term Foreigner.
Why?
It's a bit annoying to be called a foreigner to a game produced in your country by your citizens.
It is generally accepted that Korea is the land of Starcraft. So we as a community who doesnt life in the land of Bw and Esports started to call ourself foreigners because Starcraft has always been a Korea vs the world thing. Most people here have been long time Broodwar fans before they got interrested (or not) in SCII. We closely watched Idra being a foreigner in korea trying to be succesfull and we always felt like foreigners to country that broadcasts videogqmes on TV. If you are annoyed by the fact that this comunity has accepted that Korea is infact the land of Starcraft than TL might not be the rightnplace for you.
They might be getting worried about tournaments such as IPL being 92% Koreans since the groups, they might be the better players but i doubt that a foreign audience as big as the ones we have now, even more... an audience that we "dream" to achieve in 2-3 years, would really go there if every tournaments get to be Korean only, simply cuz its kinda hard to "relate" to them due to the difference in culture/language to which you add the fact that many of them are kinda socially awkward/childish ( literally... Leenok is around 17 and MKP 18 ) which really "shows" when they are on a stage in front of 5k people. You really need those Stephano, Incontrol, Idra. Goody, Gruby... etc that are able to actually give 10 minute interviews in which they talk fluently and about diverse subjects and to climb on the stage and raise a trophy without starting to cry and dance. The koreans are dumb, they realize that, they realize that the foreign audience are cheering for the foreigners... and if you got no foreigner left you go back to the broodwar stage where you had Kespa... ether you work in one of there team 14 hours a day or go play Mobas... Im not sure if anyone wants that, but it seems like its "heading" that way.
On April 11 2012 21:40 tymt wrote: good thing naniwa will win code s season 2 then.
I can see him getting out of his group ez-pz. I mean look at it, it's 2 people who should be in code B and Puzzle. Naniwa should get out easily. I like both Ryung and MVP, but they're not anywhere near Naniwa's level at the moment, I don't see MVP even staying in code A next season. However, the rest of the tournament is pretty difficult. Oz, Parting, Hero, Genius all have pretty sick PvPs any of them can end his run as soon as the first thing goes wrong.
I think naniwa should be in code b as well by that standard.
Yeah... it baffles me that people are still saying "[foreigner name] for code S" and all that stuff. It's not going to happen, there is no way in hell that any of them could conceivably win. It isn't a realistic goal atm.
On April 11 2012 21:40 tymt wrote: good thing naniwa will win code s season 2 then.
I can see him getting out of his group ez-pz. I mean look at it, it's 2 people who should be in code B and Puzzle. Naniwa should get out easily. I like both Ryung and MVP, but they're not anywhere near Naniwa's level at the moment, I don't see MVP even staying in code A next season. However, the rest of the tournament is pretty difficult. Oz, Parting, Hero, Genius all have pretty sick PvPs any of them can end his run as soon as the first thing goes wrong.
I think naniwa should be in code b as well by that standard.
Yeah... it baffles me that people are still saying "[foreigner name] for code S" and all that stuff. It's not going to happen, there is no way in hell that any of them could conceivably win. It isn't a realistic goal atm.
Well the fact of the matter is that it's true that the scene needs more foreign players going far in tourneys. I've seen some of my friends that I introduced to SC2 slowly fade away from the esports. Even though great play is awesome, people also need something to relate to, just imagine how much harder it is to introduce SC2 than when I could say there's a "insert nationality" player doing really well and you should cheer for him.
On April 10 2012 08:33 Leftwing wrote: Wouldn't it be ironic if Koreans dominate the scene for the next 2-3 years, and then all of a sudden the first bonjwa of SC2 happens to be a foreigner? Calling it now.
The way the game is set up there probably won't ever be an sc2 bonjwa and goddamnit i wish people would stop using the term
Oh come on, isn't it a little early in the game's life to be predicting that there won't ever be one? How long was it until one came around in BW - 3 years? We're seeing way better marine micro, splitting, and multitasking than we did 6-12 months ago. I would agree with you if the metagame was stagnant but I think there's at least a chance. There aren't any S class players (in their primes) playing SC2 anyways so there is a lot of talent potential if a switch did occur, not saying that it will or ever. bonjwa bonjwa
I think the idea of a foreign bonjwa is highly appealing though, and equally unlikely.
On April 10 2012 08:33 Leftwing wrote: Wouldn't it be ironic if Koreans dominate the scene for the next 2-3 years, and then all of a sudden the first bonjwa of SC2 happens to be a foreigner? Calling it now.
The way the game is set up there probably won't ever be an sc2 bonjwa and goddamnit i wish people would stop using the term
Oh come on, isn't it a little early in the game's life to be predicting that there won't ever be one? How long was it until one came around in BW - 3 years? We're seeing way better marine micro, splitting, and multitasking than we did 6-12 months ago. I would agree with you if the metagame was stagnant but I think there's at least a chance. There aren't any S class players (in their primes) playing SC2 anyways so there is a lot of talent potential if a switch did occur, not saying that it will or ever. bonjwa bonjwa
I think the idea of a foreign bonjwa is highly appealing though, and equally unlikely.
not sure if we're watching the same games really
yeah. Also, when BW started, people didn't know how to play RTS properly, people would spend tons of actions microing to save a few units while they could have build many more units if they had macro well instead.
It took a little long in BW, because people had to learn how to play and RTS, and also because maps did not allow for huge macro games with action everywhere. Hell, for the first 5 years BW maps didn't even have a proper natural !
When SC2 was released, it was played on maps that had those clearly defined natural and thirds, and at top level it was played by former BW / WC3 pros. There should not be a single delay.
On April 10 2012 08:33 Leftwing wrote: Wouldn't it be ironic if Koreans dominate the scene for the next 2-3 years, and then all of a sudden the first bonjwa of SC2 happens to be a foreigner? Calling it now.
The way the game is set up there probably won't ever be an sc2 bonjwa and goddamnit i wish people would stop using the term
Oh come on, isn't it a little early in the game's life to be predicting that there won't ever be one? How long was it until one came around in BW - 3 years? We're seeing way better marine micro, splitting, and multitasking than we did 6-12 months ago. I would agree with you if the metagame was stagnant but I think there's at least a chance. There aren't any S class players (in their primes) playing SC2 anyways so there is a lot of talent potential if a switch did occur, not saying that it will or ever. bonjwa bonjwa
I think the idea of a foreign bonjwa is highly appealing though, and equally unlikely.
not sure if we're watching the same games really
Are you you honestly saying that didn't improve in a year?
Of course they want foreigners to compete better, they know most of the money in sc2 comes from foreign companies. To keep the game interesting for foreign spectators, we need successful foreign players. If not, the rest of the world will lose interest in sc2, which will lead to way less money in sc2
On April 12 2012 19:41 StoRm_res wrote: Of course they want foreigners to compete better, they know most of the money in sc2 comes from foreign companies. To keep the game interesting for foreign spectators, we need successful foreign players. If not, the rest of the world will lose interest in sc2, which will lead to way less money in sc2
Im sure there are some korean pro's (although very few) that genuinely want's foreigners to do good but the majority i feel say so just to get more fans/fame/viewers etc.. Wich ofcourse leads to earning more money because of the newly attracted fans who will watch their stream.
Nothing wrong wanting money though. ^^ But ofcourse it can feel a little bit phony saying things you don't mean.
On April 12 2012 19:41 StoRm_res wrote: Of course they want foreigners to compete better, they know most of the money in sc2 comes from foreign companies. To keep the game interesting for foreign spectators, we need successful foreign players. If not, the rest of the world will lose interest in sc2, which will lead to way less money in sc2
Im sure there are some korean pro's (although very few) that genuinely want's foreigners to do good but the majority i feel say so just to get more fans/fame/viewers etc.. Wich ofcourse leads to earning more money because of the newly attracted fans who will watch their stream.
Nothing wrong wanting money though. ^^ But ofcourse it can feel a little bit phony saying things you don't mean.
I don't necessary meant it as a bad thing. Everyone wants starcraft 2 to grow, and to do so we need the foreigners to catch up before it is too late.
Personally i would get sick and tired of swedes winning every single tournament out there if for example Sweden was as successfull as South-Korea is at SC2.
On April 12 2012 12:10 StarStruck wrote: Everyone wants to hear a good story.
On April 12 2012 12:08 jinorazi wrote: do soccer players or musicians play for money? or do they do it because they love it, and try to make a living off of it if possible. other responsibilities and/or market availability will force their decision but their passion comes before their need for money.
so talks of "foreigners have no chance of winning so why would they continue" i dont think is a legitimate excuse, an excuse but not legitimate, enough to earn sympathy.
foreign teams NEED korean coach/players in their environment. look at all pro sports, such as korean football using dutch coaches and american speed skating using korean coaches. as a stepping stone for further improvement. (many teams are obviously doing this, not to win but to improve)
What they need is better discipline. -__-
or coach(one who can 'bitch slap' players that needs it, or with...love/care?), to put it simply.
I'm not coming back. Not going to happen.
I was talking about discipline as an innate quality opposed to the taught discipline.
On April 11 2012 22:04 mememolly wrote: some of the new guys/girls if they put in work could threaten the korean domination, people like Scarlett illusion etc but the old guard, idra incontrol huk thorzain naniwa etc haven't got a chance imo otherwise they would have proven themselves by now
I guess you know everything about GSL since you've been there so many times and practiced there. Right? You clearly have no clue.
There's koreans practicing just as hard as these foreign players you mentioned who haven't been able to do well in Code-S eihter. It's not just something you show up to and win on your first try. Try to understand the extreme amount of talent that participates there and evaluate your opinions.
There is no doubt that North American and Europeans fans want to watch players from their own areas. With them struggling to to get to the top 16 of these major tournaments I think its inevitable that viewership will drop unless something changes.
On April 12 2012 12:10 StarStruck wrote: Everyone wants to hear a good story.
On April 12 2012 12:08 jinorazi wrote: do soccer players or musicians play for money? or do they do it because they love it, and try to make a living off of it if possible. other responsibilities and/or market availability will force their decision but their passion comes before their need for money.
so talks of "foreigners have no chance of winning so why would they continue" i dont think is a legitimate excuse, an excuse but not legitimate, enough to earn sympathy.
foreign teams NEED korean coach/players in their environment. look at all pro sports, such as korean football using dutch coaches and american speed skating using korean coaches. as a stepping stone for further improvement. (many teams are obviously doing this, not to win but to improve)
What they need is better discipline. -__-
or coach(one who can 'bitch slap' players that needs it, or with...love/care?), to put it simply.
I'm not coming back. Not going to happen.
I was talking about discipline as an innate quality opposed to the taught discipline.
and how are you going to impose that when its a cultural thing? korea's recent half a century success is largely by the individual's focus on hardwork, its a cultural phenomenon, how are you going to install this mindset in a different society, or even to a single person?
you're saying foreigners lack discipline yet it can't be taught. with that said do we wait helplessly for newer generation of players that grows up with discipline? at any case, those with discipline will come up on top regardless of being taught or not. those take this game as their career and life will do better than those who take it as a hobby and fun.
EPT
