EPTI have about 100 APM on average, high platinum. My friend who is borderline masters has 50-100 APM more than me, and while his strategy is worse when he plays my main race because he doesn't have the experience nor knows any good gameplans, he still plays at a higher level than me with his offrace and my mainrace because he can easily keep up with the macro and also has APM over to do better scouting and has time over to think about his next moves etc.
"True Mechanics" = The Korean Gap, Low level myths - Page 5
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
I have about 100 APM on average, high platinum. My friend who is borderline masters has 50-100 APM more than me, and while his strategy is worse when he plays my main race because he doesn't have the experience nor knows any good gameplans, he still plays at a higher level than me with his offrace and my mainrace because he can easily keep up with the macro and also has APM over to do better scouting and has time over to think about his next moves etc. | ||
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Neurosis
United States893 Posts
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On April 10 2012 18:13 Neurosis wrote: APM does NOT necessarily directly relate to better mechanics. I've seen plenty of people that just spam 123 on their keyboards and they get 300ish apm. That said, you know all of drgs insane apm is going to good use and thats one of the main reasons he is the best zerg in sc2. The main thing to take away from this is you can always play faster and be doing more stuff at once/better. eAPM, which OP also outlines as koreans having significantly more of if you look at the chart, does not count spamming 123 and such. As such your post is essentially useless. Please read up more on the subject matter before you try to contribute to the discussion if you don't even know the difference between APM and eAPM. | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
And I agree with some previous posters eAPM does not capture your mechanics as a whole (as they, despite their name, does not capture how effective your actions are), but they are a good hint to start with considering they are something (with that I mean hard data) that you can put your hands on. | ||
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Swift118
United Kingdom335 Posts
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
that was a joke ... he said it when carmac was next and carmac said that before so it was kind of trolling and EVERYONE take him by words ... guys please | ||
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Neurosis
United States893 Posts
On April 10 2012 18:17 DemigodcelpH wrote: eAPM, which OP also outlines as koreans having significantly more of if you look at the chart, does not count spamming 123 and such. As such your post is essentially useless. Please read up more on the subject matter before you try to contribute to the discussion if you don't even know the difference between APM and eAPM. APM , eapm, whatever you want to call it (or whatever blizzard wants to call it), my point still stands. Extremely high apm does not necessarily mean you have great mechanics. Did you sit on a stick recently or...? | ||
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StevieWonder333
55 Posts
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PH
United States6173 Posts
In any case, APM is a good signifier of mechanics, but it's not the end-all. In BW, you needed a BARE MINIMUM of 200APM to make it as a progamer, and the best were usually between 250 (Stork, Savior on the low end), and 350. Nal_rA was really the last progamer to make it with extremely low APM (he was between 150-200 most games iirc). You had exceptions like Jaedong, Nada and Really who pushed 400 regularly, and I don't think anyone can forget July's 900 APM spikes during furious moments. On the other end, I remember regularly playing against players on iccup in the D level with APM approaching 300 while I barely managed a meager 130-180. Being comfortable smashing out more actions will make it easier to eventually develop that into stronger gameplay/mechanics overall, but no, it's not the end-all. Mechanics are equally important to strategy to be successful at a high level. At lower levels (anywhere below progamer-level), mechanics are more important. You can emulate build orders and strategies, but you can't emulate good unit control and macro. All that said, though, yes, Koreans do generally have superior mechanics to their foreign counterparts. | ||
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
On April 10 2012 18:31 Ghanburighan wrote: The data already shows that EAPM is not a good measure of multitasking. People that are known as great multitaskers are MMA and MKP, both seem to be able to control more battles, while expanding, making supply, and producing units. Yet, their EAPM is lower than TAKiii - whoever that is and not at the top of the list. I think the point is to show that, in general, higher APM and EAPM = better mechanics = better likelihood to win. Obviously more APM/EAPM does not automatically mean instant win and there will be some statistical anomalies + other factors to consider. But the data seems to suggest that some of the very top players have really high APM/EAPM compared to everyone else, and it does suggest that to be part of that group of elite Code A-Code S level players, you have to have APM/EAPM around that level. I guess to clarify, think about what Sjow could do with his measly 90-150 APM. Now think about how much more he can do with 200-300 APM. | ||
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SC2ShoWTimE
Germany722 Posts
On April 10 2012 18:38 Neurosis wrote: APM , eapm, whatever you want to call it (or whatever blizzard wants to call it), my point still stands. Extremely high apm does not necessarily mean you have great mechanics. Did you sit on a stick recently or...? true, apm/eapm does not necessarily equal good mechanics. it basically tells how fast someone can hit keys but not how good someone can multitask/macro/micro. just as an example: many players have high apm but how many of them can micro like mkp or place force fields like mc? | ||
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Vul
United States685 Posts
How many platinum players cant keep their money low after 2 bases because they don't know how to tap to check their production? I just wanted to ask the OP for clarification, I thought that "tapping" or "cycling," or whatever you want to call it when you continuously check your hotkeyed units and structures, isn't counted by EAPM? My understanding is that that's one of the biggest problems with using EAPM as a measure of strong mechanics. If that's not, or no longer true, (or if it's only true in Blizz UI's EAPM, but not in SC2 gears, as I also use SC2 gears for my replay analysis) then that's awesome  If that is still a problem though, do you think it affects your analysis? To me it seems that it wouldn't matter too much if we just evaluate APM. And overall I still agree with your main premise, that mechanics are the primary source of the skill gap in SC2. The only difference in thought and approach between us is I just don't usually pay much attention to EAPM, and have only really cared about increasing my APM stats in legitimate ways, as in playing faster rather than spamming more. But maybe EAPM really is the better number to evaluate? I'd like to hear you weigh in on the difference between them, and specifically why you prefer EAPM over APM. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On April 10 2012 19:25 ShoWTimE94 wrote: true, apm/eapm does not necessarily equal good mechanics. it basically tells how fast someone can hit keys but not how good someone can multitask/macro/micro. just as an example: many players have high apm but how many of them can micro like mkp or place force fields like mc? Having good mechanics =/= having good micro. Having good mechanics = Having potential to micro well. | ||
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elagrion
Ukraine422 Posts
Cos like, Savior used this trick back in 2006. | ||
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Shibbxyz
United Kingdom94 Posts
Having 200 apm is great for controlling your macro on your bases but you can't have full control on your army or scouting and so one will suffer when you try to control the other. And this is generally why koreans with high APM are so much better. When it comes down to it there controlling more of there stuff efficiently over you and will gain advantage much more easily. This comes more into effect when decision making has to be done under pressure, with more APM you can effectively make more decisions in a smaller time frame and so more likely to make the right one | ||
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CutieBK
Sweden227 Posts
No it isn't the whole story, and no you shouldn't judge a player based on his EAPM if he is still destroying in tournaments(obviously). But the fact remains, and this is why this is a really good post, that having a high EAPM is a huge step towards becoming a better SC2 player. | ||
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HappyShepard
Germany41 Posts
it becomes less important. Take Savior as an example. He always had rather low APM compared to other Brood War players, but nonetheless he was one of the best players to ever have played the game. I would describe APM rather as a tool for your mechanics, not mechanics per se. | ||
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Akta
447 Posts
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Bojas
Netherlands2397 Posts
Is that list eapm or apm??? I assume apm since Select's 374 eapm isn't humanly possible. | ||
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