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On April 10 2012 09:49 xrapture wrote:
I'm a high masters Terran and coach regularly. The #1 thing I notice when observing a student is that they do everything so slowly. They don't have camera save hotkeys. It takes them twice as long to drop a supply depot than me. When they are engaging an enemy they don't have the option of doing anything at home because they simply aren't fast enough, they can only pick one or the other.
They make other big mistakes too like bad build orders, bad micro, bad macro, and I do think those issues should be addressed before mechanics, but I also think people place too little emphasis on APM just because Day 9 and other big names say it doesn't matter.
There's a reason Koreans, the best players by far, are all faster than foreigners. If you can split your army, then instantly drop 2 engineering bays, an armory, and hotkey them, and be back to your army before the fight even starts you're going to be a lot better than the guy that can't do that.
One hundred percent agree, I do think that you have to fix basic mechanical problems like a student not knowing HOW to camera hotkey before the other mistakes. Once they know how to utilize it then you can put other things upfront
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What exactly does eAPM measure? I mean, what actions are discounted from the APM-number?
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On April 10 2012 10:01 RedDragon571 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 09:49 xrapture wrote:
I'm a high masters Terran and coach regularly. The #1 thing I notice when observing a student is that they do everything so slowly. They don't have camera save hotkeys. It takes them twice as long to drop a supply depot than me. When they are engaging an enemy they don't have the option of doing anything at home because they simply aren't fast enough, they can only pick one or the other.
They make other big mistakes too like bad build orders, bad micro, bad macro, and I do think those issues should be addressed before mechanics, but I also think people place too little emphasis on APM just because Day 9 and other big names say it doesn't matter.
There's a reason Koreans, the best players by far, are all faster than foreigners. If you can split your army, then instantly drop 2 engineering bays, an armory, and hotkey them, and be back to your army before the fight even starts you're going to be a lot better than the guy that can't do that. One hundred percent agree, I do think that you have to fix basic mechanical problems like a student not knowing HOW to camera hotkey before the other mistakes. Once they know how to utilize it then you can put other things upfront
Except that most Koreans don't use screen saves consistently :D.
What people misunderstand a lot as far as mechanics go, and which is probably the #1 reason to why Koreans are so good, is mouse precision and speed. It's really all about mouse precision. Without it, you will just be a 121212121212 spammer and that's about it. EAPM come mainly from mouse speed and precision.
A great multitasker is before all someone who can use his minimap and select shit very quickly (btw, you'll note that clicking on the minimap doesn't count towards APM), not someone who hits hotkeys very fast (because the latter is way easier than the former)
So, don't get caught up with fancy hotkey setups and frenetic building selection spam, just work on your mouse precision (in the way that Day9 described in his tutorial), the rest will come by itself.
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this thread doesn't do a very good job of proving your point to me. there are koreans near the higher end that are not doing so well, as well as koreans near the lower end who are considered the best players in the world. there are also many foreigners near the higher end that are not nearly as good as quite a few on the lower end, so this data seems highly inconsistent. people of different skill levels in different regions are not lining up with your projected hypothesis. you're cherry picking what you look at here if you think this shows that APM = skill.
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On April 10 2012 10:36 Herculix wrote:
this thread doesn't do a very good job of proving your point to me. there are koreans near the higher end that are not doing so well, as well as koreans near the lower end who are considered the best players in the world. there are also many foreigners near the higher end that are not nearly as good as quite a few on the lower end, so this data seems highly inconsistent. people of different skill levels in different regions are not lining up with your projected hypothesis. you're cherry picking what you look at here if you think this shows that APM = skill.
That not my hypothesis bro
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I'd say decision making out paces EAPM and APM after 150 or so.
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I think you need to take into consideration of play style as well. The more 'aggressive' players will have more APM because they are probably moving around the map a lot compare with the more 'turtlely' players. Or if someone goes bio vs mech in TvT, it is likely the bio player will have higher APM. The length and type of game also factors in. There are some games where it is low econ and back and forth, those game will have higher APM. Where as some games have a big lull in the middle where the 2 players are just building up on 3/4 bases and end in one engagement.
Of course, you need to have a certain level of APM to be successful.
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On April 10 2012 10:13 m0ck wrote:
What exactly does eAPM measure? I mean, what actions are discounted from the APM-number?
Blizzards EAPM is broken in a way that it does not count repeated actions such as 12341234 spam unless you "do" something with those hotkey circles. Checking build or upgrade progress does not count. Doubletap to building group or controlgroup does not count. Spamming move command does count in blizzards EAPM. In SC2Gears the move thing is cleaned up possibly in a similar way to the original EAPM program for BW where you have to be close to the opponents units or structures for the move APM to count. I'm not sure about this however since when doing some builds (usually in teamgames) mostly ones where you have to stutter step units and just build the same unit over and over, I cant break 85 EAPM no matter what. When I play "normal" I usually have like 120 so something is broken on both ways of counting EAPM.
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People are losing prospective on this. Blah Blah Blah amp doesnt matter as much eapm blah blah blah blah. Look at it like this: If you want to be a running back in the NFL you have to be able to run at a certain speed. Now is the person with the fastest 40 the best running back? No not necessarily. But you still have to be able to go at a certain speed to be able to even compete. Now in starcraft you have the same thing. Having the best mechanics does not automatically make you the best player but your mechanics have to be at a certain level to compete at the highest levels. Having good insight or a good strat or great decison making will only take you so far if your opponents just flat out have more shit than you do and can do more things at once than you can. Anyways massive run on sentence so i will leave it at that.
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On April 10 2012 10:47 Eatme wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 10:13 m0ck wrote:
What exactly does eAPM measure? I mean, what actions are discounted from the APM-number? Blizzards EAPM is broken in a way that it does not count repeated actions such as 12341234 spam unless you "do" something with those hotkey circles. Checking build or upgrade progress does not count. Doubletap to building group or controlgroup does not count. Spamming move command does count in blizzards EAPM. In SC2Gears the move thing is cleaned up possibly in a similar way to the original EAPM program for BW where you have to be close to the opponents units or structures for the move APM to count. I'm not sure about this however since when doing some builds (usually in teamgames) mostly ones where you have to stutter step units and just build the same unit over and over, I cant break 85 EAPM no matter what. When I play "normal" I usually have like 120 so something is broken on both ways of counting EAPM.
I think it basically boils down to "all selection actions don't count, only actions that have an actual effect on the game count".
Anyways, on topic:
I could only take this OP serious until the point where he assumed eAPM are equal to skill (so basically line 3)... which is absurd. Yes, speed does matter - until a certain point where the eAPM cover all basic macro and most micro actions (~100-150 eAPM). After that, timing (i.e. always producing stuff just in time, not too early), game sense and solid decision making are a lot more important.
For example Stephano is not so amazing because he has good mechanics (his mechanics are actually not that good compared to some other top zerg) or because of his speed, it's his incredible game sense which borderlines maphacking and his ability to always make the right decisions from what his game sense tells him. You can't find that in any number, it's something beyond the game itself.
Other example: Goody. Slow but perfect decision making which for a long time allowed him to be on par with a lot of the very fast players (yes, he fell behind now, but he's still good enough to prove a point :p)
If i tried, i could probably get to those eAPM levels but that wouldn't make me a better player (most likely it would make me far worse). Those other - non measureable - skills are a hundred times more important and are the difference between good and great players. They can be trained - to an extend, they are based on intelligence of the player - and that is why koreans are so good. Not only do they have very good mechanics, they also have played so many games that they can see tiny stuff and immedatly know what will come next and react properly to it.
Being in a teamhouse and have practice partners helps a lot for that, too, they can try a hundred builds against you until you recognize them each from the timing of their first probe (slightly exaggerated).
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but notice dde is one of the fastest players in the world and yet is probably a top 200 ish player in terms of skill. lets all draw random conclusions!
DDE is probably among the best foreign Terrans. I don't know if he is focusing on sc now though
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I'm somewhat shocked at how similar MKP and Idra's scores are. You'd think with all of MKP's micro tricks, he'd have a higher APM. But they're nearly identical for EAPM, APM and efficiency.
That alone should say something about the effect of attitude and game approach.
EDIT: And apparently living in the same house has made DeMuslim and Puma synchronize. I wonder if their hearts beat at the same rate.
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Great post. What would be useful now is.... Are there any SPECIFIC drills for practicing mechanics?
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The assumption that EAPM is a true measure of mechanical skill is a flawed one, which unfortunately makes your entire argument a giant failure.
That and the fact that it's just a statement of the obvious to say that the best Starcraft players are the ones with some of the best mechanics. No one who has a brain thinks that foreigners are equal to Koreans in mechanics.
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Why are there 2 MC, 2 Puma and 2 Ret in your chart?
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Considering that both APM and eAPM are such imprecise measures of 'good actions', I think the most interesting fact to take from that chart is the racial distribution of the players. The fastest players are for the most part zergs, with no zerg in the bottom 15. It would seem that the playing zerg at a top level really do require being able to do more actions than playing either protoss or terran.
As another point, it would seem that the protoss players in general have a higher reduction in their effective APM than other races. This might reflect a bias in what eAPM judges as "good actions" versus what is required when playing the race. In other words, eAPM doesn't do a very good job, at least when comparing races.
Could the OP maybe make a similar chart sorted by ordinary APM?
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ThorZaIN has low apm and is definitly one of the top forigners...
MerZ has ridiculous apm and isn't very good for a pro
Your argument is invalid
Koreans are just more dedicated and practice more (efficiently)
Also there are people in masters with like ~70apm
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Is Nestea a fast player? I feel like decision-making/the mental game is an important aspect at the highest levels as well.
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On April 10 2012 11:54 red4ce wrote:
Why are there 2 MC, 2 Puma and 2 Ret in your chart?
Probably different Starcraft 2 accounts.
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What are you trying to prove? Are you trying to claim that the reason Koreans do well is because of APM? Thats definitely not true, if you look on that list many of the foreigners are from broodwar and have high apm. These guys aren't the ones putting out the best results, even though thats why you claim Koreans are so much better.
Are you trying to prove that lower leagues need to focus more on macro? I think we all know why probes and pylons got so popular as a saying. And also, a counter to that would be how you see a fair amount of master league players who can't macro at all, they just got pretty good at their micro with their all-ins.
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EPT
