EPT"True Mechanics" = The Korean Gap, Low level myths - Page 8
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
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ImGonnaRideYou
53 Posts
You will never see a permanent bronze leaguer with solid mechanics and 150apm nor will you ever see a grand master with crap mechanics and 50 maximum apm. Polt would probably maintain 250+ apm if you asked him for an exhibition. There's no use in arguing the fact that mechanics is the single most efficient way of getting better. Pro Koreans train 10+ hours a day on mechanics, not on strategy. | ||
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Benjamin99
4176 Posts
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Biggun69
187 Posts
On April 10 2012 09:55 turdburgler wrote: but that doesnt actually answer the question of why does it. thats just stating the question and the answer. it seems pretty clear in generalities the reason is as simple as time invested. especially during your younger years where you are able to grasp new ideas a lot easier, time put in has a direct correlation to success. this is nothing new and nothing im about to write next is anything new either, people just either dont want to hear it or whatever, but koreans are still ahead and theres no reason to believe that will change any time soon. now we can look at effective practice as opposed to just laddering. and the Korean team house system still has everyone else beat. some western teams have made houses, by which they mean 'oh ye we bought a house and threw some random players in there gg'. these simplistic recreations are basically worthless. if you look at people who are considered 'the best' as opposed to those who have random success there's a huge correlation in having a dedicated coach, not wasting time with shows and not streaming much. now this sucks for fans but it really does seem that fan interaction is the biggest sign that someone is bad, or atleast has a bad mindset of 'oh ye i have time to spare with starcraft, i dont need more practice'. the simplist demonstration of all of this was mma vs stephano at ipl this weekend. stephano has been riding a huge hype train for ages now. now thats not to say he isnt a very talented player, and im not saying hes been lucky or hes bad or whatever...but compared to mma there was no comparison. he was dismantled by superior multitasking alone. what mma did was basically an exercise in macro management. he didnt use the eye popping marine splits of marineking, but instead he put himself in a situation where he would never need to. he approached dropping as a macro mechanic, giving simplistic management to 3+ drops rather than 100% of his attention to one. this mechanical approach to play is something that only comes from hours of practice, good, effective practice. not streaming for fans and not appearing on talk shows. so what is the korean difference? its all about their mindset. to become the best they can be is above winning. if you play the best winning will come in time, playing to win is a short sighted goal that favors cheesey play that might work once, instead of well practiced mechanical play that will last for perhaps years. this is slightly tangential to the OPs original post but it seemed relevent. but notice dde is one of the fastest players in the world and yet is probably a top 200 ish player in terms of skill. lets all draw random conclusions! pretty sure its apm, the mistake in his picture posting could of been caused by the bug in game that reversed the 2 numbers this/last patch idk. the myth is more that if you ladder 8 hours a day in a house that happens to contain other starcraft players you will eventually win a gsl DDE is not one of the fastest players in the world. Just because he rapidly spams 1 2 3 4 again and again doesnt meant you are fast and have good apm. | ||
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ImGonnaRideYou
53 Posts
How about we North Americans suck because we can't keep our big mouths closed long enough for our ears to hear the truth. We always got some argument like look at this guy or that guy that defies the odds. Guess what? For every one special person, there are thousands of average ass clowns like you and I and the only way you and I are gonna stand a chance to get better is through mechanics alone. Truth. | ||
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Biggun69
187 Posts
On April 10 2012 14:06 namedplayer wrote: Fruitdealer is super slow, yet he was able to win the first GSL. No, fruitdealer was not slow. | ||
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ferencziffra
Bulgaria29 Posts
On April 12 2012 01:12 Biggun69 wrote: DDE is not one of the fastest players in the world. Just because he rapidly spams 1 2 3 4 again and again doesnt meant you are fast and have good apm. There's a reason why there's APM and EAPM. | ||
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RedDragon571
United States633 Posts
On April 11 2012 23:12 ImGonnaRideYou wrote: Mechanics is a direct correlation to your skill level. Your skill level is heavily influenced by your mechanics. You will never see a permanent bronze leaguer with solid mechanics and 150apm nor will you ever see a grand master with crap mechanics and 50 maximum apm. Polt would probably maintain 250+ apm if you asked him for an exhibition. There's no use in arguing the fact that mechanics is the single most efficient way of getting better. Pro Koreans train 10+ hours a day on mechanics, not on strategy. YAY! There is intelligence on this planet! I think foreign players and especially NA players look for some gimmick to win, whereas the true way to win is to play solid. IM_MVP dominated until his wrist fell off, based on unique and interesting builds? no, Crazy cheese play? NO Based upon solid mechanics and decision making playing completely standard. YES.. the best players in the world at the moment play completely standard in almost every matchup, they rely on mechanics not insane strategic brilliance to win. | ||
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Jisall
United States2054 Posts
On April 11 2012 16:52 chambertin wrote: Please dont do that.... :/ Also, everyone in this thread should read what Tobberoth wrote. He gets it... Lol i laughed. | ||
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Glurkenspurk
United States1915 Posts
On April 12 2012 01:12 Biggun69 wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 10 2012 09:55 turdburgler wrote: but that doesnt actually answer the question of why does it. thats just stating the question and the answer. it seems pretty clear in generalities the reason is as simple as time invested. especially during your younger years where you are able to grasp new ideas a lot easier, time put in has a direct correlation to success. this is nothing new and nothing im about to write next is anything new either, people just either dont want to hear it or whatever, but koreans are still ahead and theres no reason to believe that will change any time soon. now we can look at effective practice as opposed to just laddering. and the Korean team house system still has everyone else beat. some western teams have made houses, by which they mean 'oh ye we bought a house and threw some random players in there gg'. these simplistic recreations are basically worthless. if you look at people who are considered 'the best' as opposed to those who have random success there's a huge correlation in having a dedicated coach, not wasting time with shows and not streaming much. now this sucks for fans but it really does seem that fan interaction is the biggest sign that someone is bad, or atleast has a bad mindset of 'oh ye i have time to spare with starcraft, i dont need more practice'. the simplist demonstration of all of this was mma vs stephano at ipl this weekend. stephano has been riding a huge hype train for ages now. now thats not to say he isnt a very talented player, and im not saying hes been lucky or hes bad or whatever...but compared to mma there was no comparison. he was dismantled by superior multitasking alone. what mma did was basically an exercise in macro management. he didnt use the eye popping marine splits of marineking, but instead he put himself in a situation where he would never need to. he approached dropping as a macro mechanic, giving simplistic management to 3+ drops rather than 100% of his attention to one. this mechanical approach to play is something that only comes from hours of practice, good, effective practice. not streaming for fans and not appearing on talk shows. so what is the korean difference? its all about their mindset. to become the best they can be is above winning. if you play the best winning will come in time, playing to win is a short sighted goal that favors cheesey play that might work once, instead of well practiced mechanical play that will last for perhaps years. this is slightly tangential to the OPs original post but it seemed relevent. but notice dde is one of the fastest players in the world and yet is probably a top 200 ish player in terms of skill. lets all draw random conclusions! pretty sure its apm, the mistake in his picture posting could of been caused by the bug in game that reversed the 2 numbers this/last patch idk. the myth is more that if you ladder 8 hours a day in a house that happens to contain other starcraft players you will eventually win a gsl DDE is not one of the fastest players in the world. Just because he rapidly spams 1 2 3 4 again and again doesnt meant you are fast and have good apm. I don't get your logic. Pressing buttons fast isn't pressing buttons fast because it doesn't fit into your definition of pressing buttons fast? He has high apm. He's efficient. He's good. I don't see what argument you are trying to make. | ||
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:03 RedDragon571 wrote: Well, I am mad now, North American ladder needs to be like the korean ladder. But for the ladder to become competitive we need more competition. We need more plat's to become diamonds, and diamonds to become masters. We need to teach our lower level players better fundamentals. And our NA pro's could swallow their pride a bit and improve their mechanics also. errr, you can't get 'more plats to become diamonds' it's a percentage based system. I think you mean you need plat level players be be as good as the current diamond players. | ||
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denzelz
United States604 Posts
On April 12 2012 09:59 Kharnage wrote: errr, you can't get 'more plats to become diamonds' it's a percentage based system. I think you mean you need plat level players be be as good as the current diamond players. He's saying that it's a moving average so people need to continue to improve in order for ALL of us (but especially those at the top) to improve. I think people need to stop trying to justify why APM or EAPM doesn't matter and just accept that you absolutely cannot play this game at a high level if you are slow mechanically. A lot of players like to think of this game as "strategy", as chess, but that's absolutely not true. The skill ceiling of SC2 is in a player's execution, not in the player's mental ability. You can have the best, most thought-out plan in the world, but if you cannot execute it against a marine drop at 2 places while the main army is pushing your 3rd, it doesn't matter. That's what most people who start playing SC2 find out...that you cannot learn the game by just watching VODs. | ||
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Steelo_Rivers
United States1968 Posts
i have the same apm as mkp but my redundancy is 51% -_- | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
Being smart is important but really decent mechanics are the platform through which you launch your strategy. If you have a weak base the higher functions fall apart. Dunno why people are arguing that. While APM may not be the best indicator(never was since people started spamming) it does have some correlation with your base mechanics. | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
On April 12 2012 10:29 denzelz wrote: He's saying that it's a moving average so people need to continue to improve in order for ALL of us (but especially those at the top) to improve. I think people need to stop trying to justify why APM or EAPM doesn't matter and just accept that you absolutely cannot play this game at a high level if you are slow mechanically. A lot of players like to think of this game as "strategy", as chess, but that's absolutely not true. The skill ceiling of SC2 is in a player's execution, not in the player's mental ability. You can have the best, most thought-out plan in the world, but if you cannot execute it against a marine drop at 2 places while the main army is pushing your 3rd, it doesn't matter. That's what most people who start playing SC2 find out...that you cannot learn the game by just watching VODs. Heh, and thats the problem with so many of the supposedly high Bronze low GSL level people that are so vocal sometimes. There is indeed a mechanical component to SC2. Just by understanding the game won´t make you automatically better. I find it kinda sad that there are so many people who just use the excuse of ¨learning¨ to watch VODS all day (which is not wrong, it is fun to see them) and then proceed to not practice. Having lived through a situation 100 times will always make you better prepared than reading a book on how to handle it. Ideally both methods should be done, but some of the ladder anxiety people will never improve unless they play the game once in a while. Meh, I just welcome the Korean overlords | ||
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Colour
Canada68 Posts
On April 11 2012 08:52 MrTortoise wrote: So what exactly are they doing whilst at 200 apm waiting for the first probe / drone / scv to build? Ive watched replays and all i see is selecting (which doesnt count) or movement spam. Nothing much... but it does get you into a rhythm for the rest of the game. | ||
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