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"True Mechanics" = The Korean Gap, Low level myths - Page 7

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 5 6 7 8 Next All
Zombo Joe
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada850 Posts
April 10 2012 21:27 GMT
#121
I've been using screen hotkeys since the hotkey update came out.

Its really useful as terran especially because you can go back and build stuff in < 2 seconds.

It also really helps with maynarding workers. Its way faster than clicking on the minimap.

Another huge bonus to it is that it lets you plan out your expansion pattern as Day9 once mentioned. I usually hotkey my main and the next 3-4 bases I'm going to take over the course of a game.
I am Terranfying.
NKexquisite
Profile Joined January 2009
United States911 Posts
April 10 2012 21:33 GMT
#122
Those numbers don't entirely support the gap theory.
Whattttt Upppppppp Im Nesteaaaaaa!!
PEPE!!
Profile Joined August 2004
44 Posts
April 10 2012 21:40 GMT
#123
On April 10 2012 08:07 jj33 wrote:
mechanics are only half the battle.

in bw, if you had good mechanics, but crappy mind games and bad on spot decision making you were getting nowhere.

same is true in sc2..


Koreans would beat foreigners with extremely weak builds they would never use vs top tier pros purely because of their superior mechanics.
Ksquared
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1748 Posts
April 10 2012 22:45 GMT
#124
I think decision making is more important at the highest levels.
eSports for life.
Azarkon
Profile Joined January 2010
United States21060 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-10 23:23:28
April 10 2012 23:15 GMT
#125
On April 10 2012 08:17 RedDragon571 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 10 2012 08:13 Corsica wrote:
Zenio has highest EAPM in GSL, but does it make him very successful? Mechanics are good, but there are tons of example where people with bad (progamer wise) mechanics do very well. your evidence doesnt support your argument...



See this is what people will derail this thread into. My argument is that koreans on average have better mechanics, therefore korean's are better on average. Not that having the high eapm will make you the best player, only that you have the necessary mechanics to become one of the best players.


Better mechanics is one factor. Koreans on average are better at everything in SC 2:

* Mechanics

* Builds

* Tactics

* Game sense

* Meta-game Understanding

* Preparation

But yes, being faster helps.
AndreiDaGiant
Profile Joined October 2010
United States394 Posts
April 10 2012 23:34 GMT
#126
i definitely feel mechanics are underrated in SC2. i have heard alot of people say that mechanics are not important at a certain point in sc2 compared to brood war which i think is just false. Even though i would agree that broodwar was harder, the nature of a game like starcraft is you can always get better and i think sc2 is no different then brood war in that way
Terran Metal for the Win
MrTortoise
Profile Joined January 2011
1388 Posts
April 10 2012 23:52 GMT
#127
So what exactly are they doing whilst at 200 apm waiting for the first probe / drone / scv to build?

Ive watched replays and all i see is selecting (which doesnt count) or movement spam.
MrFrenchy
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada37 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-11 00:01:30
April 11 2012 00:01 GMT
#128
Great write-up.

Of course the individual player's mechanics to individual tournament performance relationship isn't perfect.

But when you compare average EAPM of the koreans to the average EAPM of even the best foreigners, there is an undeniable trend.

And the argument that "OMFG it's just spam with 5 probes" isn't a good one, because that's only a small portion of time in an average pro match,
refmac_cys.cys
Profile Joined June 2010
United States177 Posts
April 11 2012 00:39 GMT
#129
I'm sorry, but what? Did you take the time to count through your own data? Because from my tally (counting such people as Select, Real, etc. as foreigners, and excluding the accounts with #2 on them, which are almost always higher than the primary), I've got a tally of 13 foreigners to 17 Koreans. You want to claim that that's significant data? What's more, if I expand the count to 35, I get 18 foreigners to 17 Koreans. Conclusion - The reason foreigners are worse than Koreans is because they have better eAPM, right? Now, there are two people whose eAPM is a bit higher than everyone else - Zenio and Losira. You're cherry-picking data when it supports you, and ignoring the fact that that chart basically proves you wrong.

Also note that you're data is chosen from some odd tournaments - MLG Winter Arena, Assembly Winter, and IEM world championships make some sense, to be sure, but the European battle.net invitational? What a great way to skew your data, by including a tournament that was more than half a year ago, and included only foreign competition. Now, if you took the time to analyze all of the replays from major tournaments starting this year, and were able to show a more compelling trend than you have now, I would be more inclined to believe it. As it stands now, however, you've done a shoddy job of putting together your evidence, and have proceded to draw conclusions that don't even match it.
my helicopter example is less stupid than your helicopter example - Liquid'Drone
Angra
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States2652 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-11 00:47:17
April 11 2012 00:43 GMT
#130
On April 10 2012 08:07 jj33 wrote:
mechanics are only half the battle.

in bw, if you had good mechanics, but crappy mind games and bad on spot decision making you were getting nowhere.

same is true in sc2..



Actually that's completely untrue for BW until you get up to the professional level, or at least A or so on iccup. At all levels of play besides the absolute highest, good mechanics won you a majority of your games by themselves.

Only after your mechanics were at close to peak efficiency was when mind games and decision making affected your winrate further beyond what your mechanics could do.

And a lot of SC2 pros are nowhere close to peak efficiency with their mechanics yet, so, take that how you will.
iky43210
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States2099 Posts
April 11 2012 01:44 GMT
#131
what happen to select? haven'r heard anything about him
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17921 Posts
April 11 2012 01:45 GMT
#132
On April 11 2012 09:43 Angra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 10 2012 08:07 jj33 wrote:
mechanics are only half the battle.

in bw, if you had good mechanics, but crappy mind games and bad on spot decision making you were getting nowhere.

same is true in sc2..



Actually that's completely untrue for BW until you get up to the professional level, or at least A or so on iccup. At all levels of play besides the absolute highest, good mechanics won you a majority of your games by themselves.

Only after your mechanics were at close to peak efficiency was when mind games and decision making affected your winrate further beyond what your mechanics could do.

And a lot of SC2 pros are nowhere close to peak efficiency with their mechanics yet, so, take that how you will.

Having awful decision making could throw alot of games even if you were better than them mechanic wise.

saying its untrue until A level is absurd, playing mind games at C level or better could net you quite a few wins, once players start to learn to jduge unit count to determine if an all in or anything is coming
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
Neelia
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany599 Posts
April 11 2012 06:22 GMT
#133
On April 11 2012 10:44 iky43210 wrote:
what happen to select? haven'r heard anything about him


He's going to open a hotel!

But well, he was at the last MLG Championship (unseeded in the open Bracket and didn't reach Pool Play) and at IPL4 (same here). Before he was at Assembly but lost to PuMa in the ro8.
ferencziffra
Profile Joined September 2011
Bulgaria29 Posts
April 11 2012 06:40 GMT
#134
I think good mechanics and more specifically 'high APM' is underrated in SC2 mainly because of all the people that don't have it using successful pros with relatively low APM to excuse themselves for being bad in that respect.

APM and EAPM do play a great role, and in the hands of someone who knows what to do with them, it's scary.
timoi210
Profile Joined February 2012
Philippines51 Posts
April 11 2012 06:56 GMT
#135
On April 10 2012 08:03 RedDragon571 wrote:
Mechanics = The utilization of the keyboard, mouse and user interface to execute actions in the quickest and most efficient way.

The Korean Gap = "Korean's own white dudes" -Moon at IEM


The Korean Gap

Effective Actions per minute = a value that can evaluate mechanical skill

[image loading]

Sc2 Gears Replay Analysis from IEM world championship, MLG winter arena, Assembly winter, EU Bnet invitational

[image loading]

"Koreans really do own white dudes" - The data

Here is what I think truly defines the Korean Gap in Starcraft 2. Koreans have better mechanics and only the foreigners with the best mechanics can even hope to compete. In the top 30 of the Effective or Efficient actions per minute chart we can see that only a handful of foreigners are present. Idra, Ret, nerichio, stephano, select? The very top of the EAPM shows some ridiculous feats of mechanics by DRG, Losira, Taeja. Notice, Stephano one of the top foreign players, also has one of the top EAPM's competing with the top Korean's.

While not necessarily indicating skill it would seem to reaffirm my Hypothesis that Koreans have much better mechanics on average and the top foreign big names have some of the best mechanics out of all foreigners. So for to foreigners to decrease this gap, it would seem a top level Starcraft player needs to aim for about 350 APM and 200 or so EAPM to compete with the titans winning all the tournaments.


TEAM USA?

The myths lower level players in NA face. Are they destroying mechanics?


MACRO IS KING?
[image loading]



Destiny clearly mentions improving mechanics, but most low level players really focused in on the macro part. I cannot tell you how many lower level players i have tried to talk to say "You mean macro?" when I mention mechanics. There are macro mechanics and micro mechanics but in general "mechanics" is not "macro" or "micro".

Further discussion
[D] Underused Tactic in Lower Leagues
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=326528

How many bronze and silver level players are out there trying to focus on building workers, but clicking on the bottom right of the screen rather than using a hotkey. How many silver level players are getting their zerglings fried, because they tried to double click a fast moving group of unhotkeyed zerglings instead of control clicking them? How many gold players miss a few pylons because they sent a stalker to a watchtower by clicking and boxing it manually rather than cloning (Shift+deselect portraits)? How many platinum players cant keep their money low after 2 bases because they don't know how to tap to check their production? How many diamond players lost their entire army to a flank because they were watching their probes build at the nexus? How many masters players lost 20 drones to a stimmed marine drop, and responded to it too slow, cause the hotkeyed queen died and they don't use screen hotkeys? I hope you get my damn point.

You can't learn how to macro and micro until you know the correct way's to get around the screen.


Well, I am mad now, North American ladder needs to be like the korean ladder. But for the ladder to become competitive we need more competition. We need more plat's to become diamonds, and diamonds to become masters. We need to teach our lower level players better fundamentals. And our NA pro's could swallow their pride a bit and improve their mechanics also.

I leave you with possibly one of the most useful Day9 daily's of all time.


[image loading]






"Only true masters of starcraft can clone themselves"

-Ret, MC, PuMa

[image loading]

[image loading]


User was warned for this post
EGThorZaIN, LG-IMMVP, Liquid`TLO, TtWhiteRa For Life Baby!
Battousai13
Profile Joined September 2010
United States638 Posts
April 11 2012 07:21 GMT
#136
As long as there are higher league players ready to dismiss this because "I'm masters/diamond," improvement won't really take place. I think it's one thing about the NA or even EU ladder scene that stagnates the growth of players. The willingness to call oneself into question, entertaining the possibly that he or she could be wrong, is paramount of improvement. Sadly, it's also something that a lot of people lack.

I fully agree with the OP, in that mechanics account for a pretty big gap between Korean and foreigner skill level. Far too many times, a Korean player is able to get back into the game because they are able to abuse their stronger mechanics. Terran players with extremely high APM and multitasking like MMA pull foreigner Zergs apart because these Zerg players cannot handle the pressure on multiple fronts. Also, someone like MarineKing, with unmatched unit control. He wins far too many engagements he should not be able to because of his Marine control. Macro doesn't even matter at this point, when you can trap MarineKing's units with forcefields or land cost-efficient Baneling hits.
eonDE
Profile Joined November 2011
Canada371 Posts
April 11 2012 07:27 GMT
#137
The data would only seem to suggest that there's generally more things you can do at a time as Z and T, that are probably more macro orientated, whereas P is more reliant precision micro during battles leading to the high redundancy in their actions. Though at the moment I do not see the trend across the players that scored low APM reduction that would be able to describe them as a single group, as there are probably a variety of reasons that contribute to it.
chambertin
Profile Joined August 2011
United States1704 Posts
April 11 2012 07:52 GMT
#138
On April 11 2012 15:56 timoi210 wrote:



Please dont do that.... :/

Also, everyone in this thread should read what Tobberoth wrote. He gets it...
"I know one thing, that I know nothing" - Socrates?
hugman
Profile Joined June 2009
Sweden4644 Posts
April 11 2012 10:11 GMT
#139
Puma, Nestea and MMA don't have APM that stand out.
There's no correlation between extremely high APM and tournament performance.
You're seeing what you want to see.
mage36
Profile Joined May 2011
415 Posts
April 11 2012 10:20 GMT
#140
mechanics can definitely help you win, but it's not all there is to it.
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