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On April 10 2012 08:42 Wombat_NI wrote:
Mechanics are important put using APM metrics to judge them, while it has validity in like-like comparisons, skews things racially. Protoss players, even the very fastest players just don't have the same APM/EAPM as other races.
There are many, harder things to quantify that seem to separate Koreans, for me noticeably it's their ability to adjust pre-determined builds on the fly, and the clean-ness of their adjusted timing attacks. They also just seem to be able to play a more aggressive/multi-faceted style, i.e non-committal aggression while playing standard which a lot of foreigners shy away from doing for a more passive style.
Again these traits are possible by the OP's point regarding their mechanics being top notch, but just having good mechanics alone does not explain the gap. Mentality/gamesense etc all play a part, if this game was decided purely on mechanics, among foreigners Ret and Idra would stomp face
MC is a very fast player and many of the korean protoss maintain that 300 apm threshold. I agree, I am saying that mechanics are not the only reason for the mechanics gap, but probably the largest. In a foreigner only tournament Ret and Idra would stomp face i do believe.
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There is no myth.... Obviously good macro requires good mechanics. If some lower level players think that good macro and good mechanics are somehow separate, then they are simply ignorant.
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Great analysis and putting a correlation! And i do agree, we don't even truly understand mechanics in sc2 and don't know how to fully utilize, put zero emphasis on it. We even sometimes bash it by saying apm spam is useless and such when it actually sets you up for stronger mechanical play in critical situations. One of my biggest annoyances actually stems from Incontrol, while i do love the guy to death, he almost puts no emphasis on mechanics, has zero drive to improve on them and ignores anyone who points them out (atleast use to, haven't watched him play in awhile). A simple thing he didn't want to bother with was unit queueing beyond 2, he would be wasting 200 minerals by queueing so much.
We're definitly not pushing our physical capabilites and mental capabilites enough in NA, we instead just focus mostly on build orders and reforming meta game to perfection, more of memorization skills then increase mechanical skills.
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Northern Ireland25581 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:46 RedDragon571 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 08:42 Wombat_NI wrote:
Mechanics are important put using APM metrics to judge them, while it has validity in like-like comparisons, skews things racially. Protoss players, even the very fastest players just don't have the same APM/EAPM as other races.
There are many, harder things to quantify that seem to separate Koreans, for me noticeably it's their ability to adjust pre-determined builds on the fly, and the clean-ness of their adjusted timing attacks. They also just seem to be able to play a more aggressive/multi-faceted style, i.e non-committal aggression while playing standard which a lot of foreigners shy away from doing for a more passive style.
Again these traits are possible by the OP's point regarding their mechanics being top notch, but just having good mechanics alone does not explain the gap. Mentality/gamesense etc all play a part, if this game was decided purely on mechanics, among foreigners Ret and Idra would stomp face MC is a very fast player and many of the korean protoss maintain that 300 apm threshold. I agree, I am saying that mechanics are not the only reason for the mechanics gap, but probably the largest. In a foreigner only tournament Ret and Idra would stomp face i do believe.
Protoss just need a radical redesign from where I see it, there's too little to differentiate mechanically amazing players like MC/Puzzle from average players.
I don't like making a BW comparison, but I mean check out Bisu playing from an FPVoD, he's consistently upper 200+, but he's always actually doing things. Even a really excellent multitasker like Hero just can't get that kind of mileage out of the race because of how it's designed.
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Saying mechanics is important is a bit like saying that having two hands significantly improves your game play. It's obvious, and everyone who's played RTS games even semi-seriously understands that. For lower level players, improving mechanics will obviously help them.
The issue with a lot of lower level players isn't that they don't know this, it's that training mechanics can be incredibly tedious. You have to grind games where 100% of what you focus on is purely mechanical skill, e.g. not missing a production cycle, multitasking, etc. If you enjoy that, then go for it, but I know a lot of my friends want to improve but don't find grinding games to improve their mechanics to be fun, so they don't do it.
At the top levels, I honestly don't feel that mechanics are the separating factor between Koreans and foreigners. Also, EAPM is a ridiculously bad way to look at a players mechanical skill. You can have a high EAPM but bad mechanics with regards to multitasking and micromanagement. Just because an action isn't repetitive doesn't mean it serves a point. Your numbers don't even really support your argument, especially regarding EAPM. Heck, if you want to argue for who should win based on EAPM, then KawaiiRice should crush a lot of foreigners and SeleCT should be a Code S class Korean player. Obviously, that isn't the case, despite their ridiculous mechanical skill.
tl;dr: Mechanics matter, but they don't explain the differences at high levels.
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Is your first image APM or EAPM?? cuz even most BW pros dont have 250+ EAPM lol.
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Really interesting post. I never knew stephano has such high apm, and MMA has scary Eapm...! lol
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On April 10 2012 08:47 liberal wrote:
There is no myth.... Obviously good macro requires good mechanics. If some lower level players think that good macro and good mechanics are somehow separate, then they are simply ignorant.
That's not entirely true. Some players who sit on their butts building workers then just massing crap then A moving units and spamming production are considered to have awesome macro. I hear commentators say, "Look at that macro!" When they've only been just building then massed their blog and are remaxing their army when it engages.
I think good mechanics is 50/50 macro/micro and timing. Not just timing attacks but timing of things coming out or being done researching. How well you execute an attack while macroing. Some of these godly macro players crumble when forced to multitask vs drops or multi pronged attacks.
The best mechanic guys are just awesome multitaskers and you can see it in their fp views,
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I basically agree that excellent "mechanics" are like the basis you need to be at the top - period. If you don´t reach a certain level where you macro comfortably(of course it´s stressful and exhausting but you get the point) and get your things together at a high pace and accurately, you are behind from the get go because it´s not just about the skill how you control the units - but simply who got more stuff will most likely win an engagement.
The other things that comes to play is mindgames and which strategies you choose for which kind of opponent. And here we are at the very peak of the creation of any top level Sc2 player. Being able to outsmart and trick your opponent(based on map/playstyle of opponent...) into setting the pace of the game, don´t letting him do his style or whatever. But without the right mechanics the best strategy - at least on a certain level - will not help you.
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On April 10 2012 08:36 lodeet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 08:31 Corsica wrote:On April 10 2012 08:17 RedDragon571 wrote:On April 10 2012 08:13 Corsica wrote:
Zenio has highest EAPM in GSL, but does it make him very successful? Mechanics are good, but there are tons of example where people with bad (progamer wise) mechanics do very well. your evidence doesnt support your argument... See this is what people will derail this thread into. My argument is that koreans on average have better mechanics, therefore korean's are better on average. Not that having the high eapm will make you the best player, only that you have the necessary mechanics to become one of the best players. KR have better mechanics, but it comes from person to person, some of them have low apm and win a lot (nestea), some have highest eapm and lose to foreign terrans (zenio) , depends on person, and many various things, mechanics are just a small particle of kr success.. Did you even read the post you just quoted? Mechanics a small particle of success? then what are the big particles.
Personality - that includes nerve management, overall mentality, being hardworking etc.
thankfully SC is not a game where you just click, you have to think (decsion making) etc...
P.S Nerchio is considered probably 2nd foreigner zerg (after stephano), yet he himself says that his mechanics are bad...
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I agree with this post, without being solid in your mechanics you will never get to a higher leagues, but having good game knowledge will make it easier until a certain point, I think.
Basically, if you're below Grandmasters, work on your mechanics.
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Good post, and this is only the beginning. Wait until the BW koreans start coming en masse.
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A friend of mine who played with Mondragon & smi.Fonger once gave me some insight about how come Koreans play better. It's like their national sport. If the best Soccer players come out of Germany/Italy/Spain and the best Rugby players come out of New Zealand/Australia because those countries focus on that game so much, how is it different to how Korea produces the best SC II players? If such is the case, of course these guys will have better mechanics/macro/eapm.
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On April 10 2012 08:56 Megaliskuu wrote:
Is your first image APM or EAPM?? cuz even most BW pros dont have 250+ EAPM lol.
It's not even the ingame Blizzard EPM value, it's the EPM scaled to real time.
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yes koreans practice more which means they win more.......is this thread worthy?
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I'm a high masters Terran and coach regularly. The #1 thing I notice when observing a student is that they do everything so slowly. They don't have camera save hotkeys. It takes them twice as long to drop a supply depot than me. When they are engaging an enemy they don't have the option of doing anything at home because they simply aren't fast enough, they can only pick one or the other.
They make other big mistakes too like bad build orders, bad micro, bad macro, and I do think those issues should be addressed before mechanics, but I also think people place too little emphasis on APM just because Day 9 and other big names say it doesn't matter.
There's a reason Koreans, the best players by far, are all faster than foreigners. If you can split your army, then instantly drop 2 engineering bays, an armory, and hotkey them, and be back to your army before the fight even starts you're going to be a lot better than the guy that can't do that.
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On April 10 2012 09:27 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Good post, and this is only the beginning. Wait until the BW koreans start coming en masse.
I keep hearing this since the beginning of the release of Sc2... 
I am getting anxious to seeing them in action already! ForGG for example has been quite impressive already, but definitely is not there "yet", to be an example of former BW gosus taking over. Hope they will come soon(er) - even though it will mean a painful goodbye for BW... I can empathize somewhat, since Sc2 also made wc3 obsolete -_-.
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Notice that there are no protoss players anywhere near the top of the list . . .
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On April 10 2012 09:34 KimJong1L wrote:
A friend of mine who played with Mondragon & smi.Fonger once gave me some insight about how come Koreans play better. It's like their national sport. If the best Soccer players come out of Germany/Italy/Spain and the best Rugby players come out of New Zealand/Australia because those countries focus on that game so much, how is it different to how Korea produces the best SC II players? If such is the case, of course these guys will have better mechanics/macro/eapm.
but that doesnt actually answer the question of why does it. thats just stating the question and the answer.
it seems pretty clear in generalities the reason is as simple as time invested. especially during your younger years where you are able to grasp new ideas a lot easier, time put in has a direct correlation to success. this is nothing new and nothing im about to write next is anything new either, people just either dont want to hear it or whatever, but koreans are still ahead and theres no reason to believe that will change any time soon.
now we can look at effective practice as opposed to just laddering. and the Korean team house system still has everyone else beat. some western teams have made houses, by which they mean 'oh ye we bought a house and threw some random players in there gg'. these simplistic recreations are basically worthless.
if you look at people who are considered 'the best' as opposed to those who have random success there's a huge correlation in having a dedicated coach, not wasting time with shows and not streaming much. now this sucks for fans but it really does seem that fan interaction is the biggest sign that someone is bad, or atleast has a bad mindset of 'oh ye i have time to spare with starcraft, i dont need more practice'.
the simplist demonstration of all of this was mma vs stephano at ipl this weekend. stephano has been riding a huge hype train for ages now. now thats not to say he isnt a very talented player, and im not saying hes been lucky or hes bad or whatever...but compared to mma there was no comparison. he was dismantled by superior multitasking alone. what mma did was basically an exercise in macro management. he didnt use the eye popping marine splits of marineking, but instead he put himself in a situation where he would never need to. he approached dropping as a macro mechanic, giving simplistic management to 3+ drops rather than 100% of his attention to one.
this mechanical approach to play is something that only comes from hours of practice, good, effective practice. not streaming for fans and not appearing on talk shows.
so what is the korean difference? its all about their mindset. to become the best they can be is above winning. if you play the best winning will come in time, playing to win is a short sighted goal that favors cheesey play that might work once, instead of well practiced mechanical play that will last for perhaps years. this is slightly tangential to the OPs original post but it seemed relevent.
On April 10 2012 09:52 Biggun69 wrote:
Notice that there are no protoss players anywhere near the top of the list . . .
but notice dde is one of the fastest players in the world and yet is probably a top 200 ish player in terms of skill. lets all draw random conclusions!
On April 10 2012 08:56 Megaliskuu wrote:
Is your first image APM or EAPM?? cuz even most BW pros dont have 250+ EAPM lol.
pretty sure its apm, the mistake in his picture posting could of been caused by the bug in game that reversed the 2 numbers this/last patch idk.
On April 10 2012 08:47 liberal wrote:
There is no myth.... Obviously good macro requires good mechanics. If some lower level players think that good macro and good mechanics are somehow separate, then they are simply ignorant.
the myth is more that if you ladder 8 hours a day in a house that happens to contain other starcraft players you will eventually win a gsl
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i dont read the hole thread but i just have to say thats just logical that higer apm brings you an advantage. for sure its more important on high level then on gold or so.
but it´s clearly that in sc2 mechanics dont are this important they where in bw. when they where, losira would be possible unbeatable.
it´s the mix what´s make you a really good player. savior didn´t had those an high apm for pro conditions and he was just one of the gretest player of all time.
and that koreas have better mechanics it logical too. they just play more.
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EPT
