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Knock off the SC2 vs BW vs LoL vs whatever crap please. |
On March 25 2012 21:16 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 20:22 NeonFox wrote:On March 25 2012 20:15 Smileforyouandme wrote:
hmm just one more weirdo idea, just coming up while reading tons of posts here... maybe kespa programmers create scbw game with better graphics out of sc2...i know theres that mod floating around yet, but i am sure that kespa dudes could do much much more with some funding etc... would make everyone happy? the sc2 guys get their graphics and the better skilldisplaying mechanics... further: idra finally can win games :-D Why do people keep bringing up stuff like this. It's not about graphics or whatnot, Brood War is not a "better game" than Sc2 for everyone out there. Brood war "purists" are so incredibly annoying when all they can say is how BW is such a better game, accept the fact that some people don't agree with you, and (oh the blasphemy!) some even think Sc2 is better. The issue with sc2 people even attempting to compare the games is as follows: The absolute vast majority of sc2 people have never actually played bw, and the absolute vast majority of bw people have played sc2. I don't think proponents of sc2 actually understand how fundamentally stupid it is to attempt to make objective judgements on something that you don't know anything about. Compare it to this: I've never played racquetball or squash, but I've played badminton and tennis extensively. Now I go around telling everyone I know that "badminton is actually a better game than both racquetball and squash, because it's so much nicer to watch and easier to play, even though i've never played squash" I'd be the laughingstock of the entire place, and justly. I 100% guarantee you that amongst people who have played both games (I'm not talking about downloading bw and playing 2 games vs the ai like most sc2 people did to attempt to add credibility, I'm talking about actual players who've played a lot in an attempt to improve and understand the game) the consensus is that bw is a far better and more satisfying game. It's not even a debate amongst these people, which is why threads like these are so frustrating. In addition, there's so much pressure on the bw community to "switch and join this century lolololol," where there's absolutely no pressure in the reverse direction. I have no idea why everyone thinks that bw needs to die in order for sc2 to succeed, if sc2 can prove itself as a viable and long lasting esport, then cool let it exist. Speaking as someone who vastly prefers watching brood war to sc2, even though I still watch both, there's a huge double standard in that respect. BW players and fans would be completely satisfied to just have their game continue to exist and thrive in korea, and I'm incredibly sad to see this movement on kespa's part to include sc2 in proleague. Let both people have their fun for crying out loud, and don't force sc2 on people who don't want it! I can't think of any other way to speak about this inherent double standard when the two scenes of sc2 and bw collide.
But most sc2 fans don't compare the games. There not the same, there is no point to compare them. It's the same way that you talk about pressure, it works in one way.
I 100% agree with you on the keep both games part, if your thing is BW and people keep trying to push sc2 on you it must be very annoying.
Which is why you have to understand that it is frustrating to come here and read some comments just saying "well anyways BW is far better sc2 sucks it has always been that way and will always be".
I don't share the same interest as some do for BW but I genuinely hope that it gets to keep it's own high class tournament.
Edit : spelling
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On March 25 2012 23:17 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 23:10 StarStruck wrote:
Having two games affect the results of a tournament eschews the net results. They would be better off having showmatches or do a full switch. Um, what? I never interpreted anything posted in this thread to suggest that BW and SC2 would be part of the same tournament. The original OP sounded like it was saying that there might be two parallel OGN tournaments, one for each. As for mashing them together into one tournament, I don't even know how you'd do that.
That's what was implied by the rumors in this thread and the other thread. That's why there are a lot of not so easy responses to this.
Look at Kennigit's post:
"Looks like KeSPA went full retard."
I couldn't say it better myself.
The idea here is that they would alternate games.
So it would look something like this.
KT versus SK!
Game 1: BW
Game 2: SC2
Game 3: BW
etc.
There's a conflict of interest in such an idea and no one wants the results of one game effecting the other.
That's the rub we have and there's a lot of hardcore BW guys saying we should just do a SC2 PL if that's the case.
On March 25 2012 23:23 NeonFox wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 21:16 HyperionDreamer wrote:On March 25 2012 20:22 NeonFox wrote:On March 25 2012 20:15 Smileforyouandme wrote:
hmm just one more weirdo idea, just coming up while reading tons of posts here... maybe kespa programmers create scbw game with better graphics out of sc2...i know theres that mod floating around yet, but i am sure that kespa dudes could do much much more with some funding etc... would make everyone happy? the sc2 guys get their graphics and the better skilldisplaying mechanics... further: idra finally can win games :-D Why do people keep bringing up stuff like this. It's not about graphics or whatnot, Brood War is not a "better game" than Sc2 for everyone out there. Brood war "purists" are so incredibly annoying when all they can say is how BW is such a better game, accept the fact that some people don't agree with you, and (oh the blasphemy!) some even think Sc2 is better. The issue with sc2 people even attempting to compare the games is as follows: The absolute vast majority of sc2 people have never actually played bw, and the absolute vast majority of bw people have played sc2. I don't think proponents of sc2 actually understand how fundamentally stupid it is to attempt to make objective judgements on something that you don't know anything about. Compare it to this: I've never played racquetball or squash, but I've played badminton and tennis extensively. Now I go around telling everyone I know that "badminton is actually a better game than both racquetball and squash, because it's so much nicer to watch and easier to play, even though i've never played squash" I'd be the laughingstock of the entire place, and justly. I 100% guarantee you that amongst people who have played both games (I'm not talking about downloading bw and playing 2 games vs the ai like most sc2 people did to attempt to add credibility, I'm talking about actual players who've played a lot in an attempt to improve and understand the game) the consensus is that bw is a far better and more satisfying game. It's not even a debate amongst these people, which is why threads like these are so frustrating. In addition, there's so much pressure on the bw community to "switch and join this century lolololol," where there's absolutely no pressure in the reverse direction. I have no idea why everyone thinks that bw needs to die in order for sc2 to succeed, if sc2 can prove itself as a viable and long lasting esport, then cool let it exist. Speaking as someone who vastly prefers watching brood war to sc2, even though I still watch both, there's a huge double standard in that respect. BW players and fans would be completely satisfied to just have their game continue to exist and thrive in korea, and I'm incredibly sad to see this movement on kespa's part to include sc2 in proleague. Let both people have their fun for crying out loud, and don't force sc2 on people who don't want it! I can't think of any other way to speak about this inherent double standard when the two scenes of sc2 and bw collide. But most sc2 fans don't compare the games. There not the same, there is no point to compare them. It's the same way that you talk about pressure, it works in one way. I 100% agree with you on the keep both games part, if your thing is BW and people keep trying to push sc2 on you it must be very annoying. Which is why you have to understand that it is frustrating to come here and read some comments just saying "well anyways BW is far better sc2 sucks it has always been that way and will always be". I don't share the same interest as some do for BW but I genuinely hope that it gets to keep it's own high class tournament. Edit : spelling
Nor should they as I've said many times already. You shouldn't talk about things that you know not of and there are many fans of SC2 who aren't that familiar with the BW scene or the game.
There are some people who follow both immensely. I am one of those people.
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On March 25 2012 22:38 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 21:16 HyperionDreamer wrote:On March 25 2012 20:22 NeonFox wrote:On March 25 2012 20:15 Smileforyouandme wrote:
hmm just one more weirdo idea, just coming up while reading tons of posts here... maybe kespa programmers create scbw game with better graphics out of sc2...i know theres that mod floating around yet, but i am sure that kespa dudes could do much much more with some funding etc... would make everyone happy? the sc2 guys get their graphics and the better skilldisplaying mechanics... further: idra finally can win games :-D Why do people keep bringing up stuff like this. It's not about graphics or whatnot, Brood War is not a "better game" than Sc2 for everyone out there. Brood war "purists" are so incredibly annoying when all they can say is how BW is such a better game, accept the fact that some people don't agree with you, and (oh the blasphemy!) some even think Sc2 is better. The issue with sc2 people even attempting to compare the games is as follows: The absolute vast majority of sc2 people have never actually played bw, and the absolute vast majority of bw people have played sc2. I don't think proponents of sc2 actually understand how fundamentally stupid it is to attempt to make objective judgements on something that you don't know anything about. Compare it to this: I've never played racquetball or squash, but I've played badminton and tennis extensively. Now I go around telling everyone I know that "badminton is actually a better game than both racquetball and squash, because it's so much nicer to watch and easier to play, even though i've never played squash" I'd be the laughingstock of the entire place, and justly. I 100% guarantee you that amongst people who have played both games (I'm not talking about downloading bw and playing 2 games vs the ai like most sc2 people did to attempt to add credibility, I'm talking about actual players who've played a lot in an attempt to improve and understand the game) the consensus is that bw is a far better and more satisfying game. It's not even a debate amongst these people, which is why threads like these are so frustrating.In addition, there's so much pressure on the bw community to "switch and join this century lolololol," where there's absolutely no pressure in the reverse direction. I have no idea why everyone thinks that bw needs to die in order for sc2 to succeed, if sc2 can prove itself as a viable and long lasting esport, then cool let it exist. Speaking as someone who vastly prefers watching brood war to sc2, even though I still watch both, there's a huge double standard in that respect. BW players and fans would be completely satisfied to just have their game continue to exist and thrive in korea, and I'm incredibly sad to see this movement on kespa's part to include sc2 in proleague. Let both people have their fun for crying out loud, and don't force sc2 on people who don't want it! I can't think of any other way to speak about this inherent double standard when the two scenes of sc2 and bw collide. You have to be careful now. Is BW a more satisfying game to watch or to play? Personally, SC2 is a far more satisfying game to play than BW is since I'm not a pro player (~master's and was C level in BW). Also, SC2 with good English commentary (GOM) is actually more satisfying to watch for me than the average ProLeague game in BW. However, I would watch BW ProLeague over SC2 ProLeague simply because there's so much more history with the BW players that I could identify with. I disagree that there's a double-standard here.
I would add that problem isnt about SC2 being inferior or not on any aspects. The SC2 people want just the scene to grow. BW might be bigger in Korea, but elsewhere it is the opposite. If SC2 gets bigger, the Starcraft franchize and related esports continue on (most definetely the best and largest RTS scene). BW is in decline, and most people look on the bright side, and want the SC2 to continue the legacy. Sure, SC2 is not perfect atm, but so was BW, at its early stages. So this fight over BW vs SC2 is stupid. Both BW and SC2 fans should be happy that these awesome RTS have such colorful scene.
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On March 25 2012 23:23 StarStruck wrote:
That's what was implied by the rumors in this thread and the other thread. That's why there are a lot of not so easy responses to this.
That's crazy, that has to be a misunderstanding, or a mistranslation, or something. If it's not -- yeah it makes no sense.
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On March 25 2012 23:10 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +If you're happy watching both leagues separately why aren't you happy watching both combined? I see people still don't get it. How about you try reading the actual thread before chiming in or at least understand the ramifications of such a league. As for the whole SC2 purists versus BW purists. The real issue is pure competition. Having two games affect the results of a tournament eschews the net results. They would be better off having showmatches or do a full switch. Some people are spewing out shit on which they know not of. Just like the guy up above me.
I don't think mixing BW and SC2 is any worse for messing with results than back when they had 2v2 games mixed in, since 2v2 is essentially a different game.
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On March 25 2012 23:26 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 23:23 StarStruck wrote:
That's what was implied by the rumors in this thread and the other thread. That's why there are a lot of not so easy responses to this. That's crazy, that has to be a misunderstanding, or a mistranslation, or something. If it's not -- yeah it makes no sense.
That's why there is the great uproar at such a suggestion if the rumors do in fact to be true and I think that's what most people are missing and instead just looking at hooray, SC2 is coming to KeSPA instead of looking at the suggested format.
Like I said many of the BW fanatics would rather just see a SC2 PL and get it over with.
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Really happy to see that GOM are actually interested in improving SC2 and not just going to block KeSPA because they can.
Really eager to see this.
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I don't see why everyone is acting so surprised. I really don't want BW to die, but I also want to see what Flash can do in SC2, I want to have my cake and eat it too dammit!
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The biggest issue with split PL is that it will damage the quality of the games . How do you practise for 2 games that mechanics of which are completely different ? But if anyone can cope with this it's the BW progamers .
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On March 25 2012 23:30 Zzoram wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 23:10 StarStruck wrote:If you're happy watching both leagues separately why aren't you happy watching both combined? I see people still don't get it. How about you try reading the actual thread before chiming in or at least understand the ramifications of such a league. As for the whole SC2 purists versus BW purists. The real issue is pure competition. Having two games affect the results of a tournament eschews the net results. They would be better off having showmatches or do a full switch. Some people are spewing out shit on which they know not of. Just like the guy up above me. I don't think mixing BW and SC2 is any worse for messing with results than back when they had 2v2 games mixed in, since 2v2 is essentially a different game.
Considering I used to be a big 2v2er back in the day. Yes, the styles are very different and I'm trying to recall the results of that league. In any case, 2v2s didn't last very long and some maps were absolutely dreadful. I've already mentioned SF being mixed in with BW one time. It was a complete joke.
There are much better ways of introducing SC2 to the fanbase than putting on a league under this format. At least this might break the KT versus SK curse (if you weren't aware this will be the third straight grand finals where they met).
I don't mind it because it's always very entertaining, but some people are getting tired of it.
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On March 25 2012 23:34 raga4ka wrote:
The biggest issue with split PL is that it will damage the quality of the games . How do you practise for 2 games that mechanics of which are completely different ? But if anyone can cope with this it's the BW progamers .
raga,
The rumor is they will have specific players playing SC2 (I'm assuming b-teamers and guys who aren't performing well in BW) to take those sets.
The underlying problem we're talking about is the proposed format of the league guys. That's what this tizzy is all about.
For the sake of KeSPA we hope they don't take a shit on one of their oldest and presitigious leagues. I know I much rather have a SC2 PL.
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On March 25 2012 14:23 elt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 14:00 Zato-1 wrote:
High quality videos on demand, high quality english casting for international audiences, consistently fair rulings, no shenanigans. I love Blizzard's games, and I'm loving what both GomTV and IPL are doing for SC2. KeSPA? Not so much.
As to BW vs. SC2 vs. LoL: They're all great games, people. Live and let live. Have you checked out what OGN are doing for LoL? They've got a dedicated English stream on own3d and twitch/table set up in the studio, and a re-broadcast during weekends at what I imagine are better times for US/EU. I think this shows OGN is willing to play ball with foreign companies/viewers if they are shown that they will get something out of it. I've played a bit of every game and watch a bit of all three, but what I'll say is that OGN makes LoL look very, very good.
Hm. While that is good, I don't find it terribly impressive; fanmade LoL streams on own3d and twitch.tv have been around for a while now, so setting up one more stream doesn't sound like a huge deal. While I'd love to have OGN jump into the SC2 boat, they are a broadcasting company AFAIK, so I'm not sure how much they could do for SC2 if they have no content to broadcast.
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Why is everyone saying that a Kespa/OGN SC2 tournament means that the BW pro players switch over?
As far as I understand it it just means that the big sponsored teams will set up their own SC2 squads and every pro player is free to switch over to SC2 without having to leave their team, but I doubt that the top tier players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu etc. will switch over if their korean audience is so much bigger for BW while they are still successful playing it. I also doubt that they will put a lot of money into SC2 compared to BW, they already stated that they want to start with young and upcoming players and make them famous, and don't buy established SC2 players and invest money into them.
The part we should be pumped about is that there will be another huge korean tournament (which korea really lacks atm) and that it would be a good chance to really get a bigger audience and more promotion for HotS, especially for the korean audience, which will increase the lifespan for SC2 a lot in the longrun.
I just hope Blizzard doesn't botch it from a promotion point of view and I also hope that SC2 gets more appealing in general with HotS, they should really copy a lot of stuff from what LoL is doing right.
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On March 25 2012 02:34 MetalLobster wrote:
I don't see why they have to eliminate BW
Money money money. Sponsors have to choose 1 product.
New and shiny game competitive in international level,
or 10 year old game only koreans are good at.
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On March 25 2012 23:49 Bommes wrote:
Why is everyone saying that a Kespa/OGN SC2 tournament means that the BW pro players switch over?
StarStruck pointed me at this thread, which explains a lot of his comments:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323013
My reaction is that there must be some misunderstanding, but apparently KESPA has done something like this before, so I don't know.
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On March 26 2012 00:07 - special tactics - wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 02:34 MetalLobster wrote:
I don't see why they have to eliminate BW Money money money. Sponsors have to choose 1 product. New and shiny game competitive in international level, or 10 year old game only koreans are good at.
I heard Koreans are pretty good at Sc2 too .. hmmm I wonder why ...maybe because it has the name of starcraft in front of the 2 ?. According to this http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GOMTV_Global_Starcraft_II_League , the latest GSL is also won by a Korean 2012 Hot6iX Global StarCraft II League Season 1 which is  DongRaeGu.
So I don't think it's a matter of a 10 year old game that koreans are only good at, sc2 is already 2 years old and koreans are still the best players in sc2 .
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Okay, I hope a mod could add the format that's being proposed so it's easier for everyone to see why there is a growing concern about this method of introducing the game.
I'm going to link the original post:
On March 24 2012 00:46 supernovamaniac wrote:EDIT: I like one game over the other. That doesn't mean that I should hate on the other one, nor the people who like the other game. Please be considerate, and keep the discussions as civil as possible.Not going to translate the whole article, just the summary. Though, I knew this from long time ago and seems like this article pretty much confirms what someone said before on the fomos forums (Surprising that it came out to be somewhat true). Seems like Proleague 11-12 Season 2 is going to be STARCRAFT Proleague if things work out fast enough. What this means is that we won't have BroodWar Proleague or SC2 Proleague. The idea is that odd numbered sets will be BW, and even numbered sets will be SC2. Seems like it will be Bo7 format with ace match, and ace match will rotate between BW and SC2 (not sure how it will work).Source: http://esports.dailygame.co.kr/news/read.php?id=58368Keep in mind that these are still speculations. However, I felt like I needed to post this since this is not the first time I've seen this news.
That's the proposed format that's problematic.
If you have players who aren't on the A-Team roster playing SC2 sets not only are the results mixed, but this is no way to showcase SC2 either. I much rather have the top pro's of SC2 playing on the biggest stage because they know how to showoff the game well or else its like going back in time. I could watch Polt playing Stephano all day if I could.
You might argue, "but player recognition will be up!" That isn't really the case because you would have the weak players doing the SC2 sets!
This isn't even the main argument either. It's the fact the results are going to be ridiculously mixed.
If I were KeSPA I would either do showcase matches or give us SC2 PL.
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On March 26 2012 00:10 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 00:07 - special tactics - wrote:On March 25 2012 02:34 MetalLobster wrote:
I don't see why they have to eliminate BW Money money money. Sponsors have to choose 1 product. New and shiny game competitive in international level, or 10 year old game only koreans are good at. I heard Koreans are pretty good at Sc2 too .. hmmm I wonder why ...maybe because it has the name of starcraft in front of the 2 ?. According to this http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GOMTV_Global_Starcraft_II_League , the latest GSL is also won by a Korean 2012 Hot6iX Global StarCraft II League Season 1 which is DongRaeGu. So I don't think it's a matter of a 10 year old game that koreans are only good at, sc2 is already 2 years old and koreans are still the best players in sc2 .
I think you misread that, he said that only the korean players are good at brood war. He didn't say that koreans are only good at brood war.
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On March 26 2012 00:26 Applesqt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 00:10 Sawamura wrote:On March 26 2012 00:07 - special tactics - wrote:On March 25 2012 02:34 MetalLobster wrote:
I don't see why they have to eliminate BW Money money money. Sponsors have to choose 1 product. New and shiny game competitive in international level, or 10 year old game only koreans are good at. I heard Koreans are pretty good at Sc2 too .. hmmm I wonder why ...maybe because it has the name of starcraft in front of the 2 ?. According to this http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GOMTV_Global_Starcraft_II_League , the latest GSL is also won by a Korean 2012 Hot6iX Global StarCraft II League Season 1 which is DongRaeGu. So I don't think it's a matter of a 10 year old game that koreans are only good at, sc2 is already 2 years old and koreans are still the best players in sc2 . I think you misread that, he said that only the korean players are good at brood war. He didn't say that koreans are only good at brood war.
When you state Koreans without being specific in which kind of koreans you are talking about it's easy to infer the way I did and It seems he type it that way just to get some nice reaction from the starcraft bw fan's.
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On March 26 2012 00:46 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 00:26 Applesqt wrote:On March 26 2012 00:10 Sawamura wrote:On March 26 2012 00:07 - special tactics - wrote:On March 25 2012 02:34 MetalLobster wrote:
I don't see why they have to eliminate BW Money money money. Sponsors have to choose 1 product. New and shiny game competitive in international level, or 10 year old game only koreans are good at. I heard Koreans are pretty good at Sc2 too .. hmmm I wonder why ...maybe because it has the name of starcraft in front of the 2 ?. According to this http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GOMTV_Global_Starcraft_II_League , the latest GSL is also won by a Korean 2012 Hot6iX Global StarCraft II League Season 1 which is DongRaeGu. So I don't think it's a matter of a 10 year old game that koreans are only good at, sc2 is already 2 years old and koreans are still the best players in sc2 . I think you misread that, he said that only the korean players are good at brood war. He didn't say that koreans are only good at brood war. When you state Koreans without being specific in which kind of koreans you are talking about it's easy to infer the way I did and It seems he type it that way just to get some nice reaction from the starcraft bw fan's.
And you couldn't help taking the bait? By definition, you just got trolled.
And no, it's not possible to read what he said the way you did.
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EPT
