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Knock off the SC2 vs BW vs LoL vs whatever crap please. |
5003 Posts
All of this bitching about BW vs SC2 is retarded right now. Both are struggling. KeSPA knows that BW's time is up -- it is IMPOSSIBLE to get sponsors right now. Absolutely freaking impossible. Even if you had one of the most successful OSLs of all time and a literal cinderella story unfolding in Proleague last season, despite how kickass the leagues was, it's absolutely failing to get sponsors.
Stop comparing sponsors ffs. GOM Leagues are a lot cheaper to sponsor. OSLs cost 5x more than a GOM League to sponsor because there's a lot of fixed costs involved in TV production. No one wanted to sponsor proleague so SK just took one of their subsidiaries and used that to "sponsor" a league. OSL couldn't get a sponsor so Korean Air had to bail them out again, specifically because the daughter of Korean Air's CEO is a huge freaking fan of Brood War. No one is even thinking of sponsoring team 8.
They're both in ridiculously tough spots. BW is on a huge decline and SC2 is growing too slowly because GOM has no idea how to promote their leagues. SC2 is literally the last hope that everyone is clinging onto right now because if they're late LoL is going to devour them and draw all the sponsorship money. SC2 still has many things going for it (for one, it's freaking global). BW does not, it's literally sucked dry at this point.
So stop bitching about sponsoring. Saying that BW sponsors are bigger therefore better doesn't matter because BW is like a balloon that popped and is shrinking and no one is willing to try and pump air back in. At least SC2 has new ways of marketing, but SC2 has a rough as hell road ahead because SC2 is even more dead in Korea but there's some glimmer of potential
Sadly it's not about how good the game is but it's always more about popularity.
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On March 26 2012 02:28 Milkis wrote:
All of this bitching about BW vs SC2 is retarded right now. Both are struggling. KeSPA knows that BW's time is up -- it is IMPOSSIBLE to get sponsors right now. Absolutely freaking impossible. Even if you had one of the most successful OSLs of all time and a literal cinderella story unfolding in Proleague last season, despite how kickass the leagues was, it's absolutely failing to get sponsors.
Stop comparing sponsors ffs. GOM Leagues are a lot cheaper to sponsor. OSLs cost 5x more than a GOM League to sponsor because there's a lot of fixed costs involved in TV production. No one wanted to sponsor proleague so SK just took one of their subsidiaries and used that to "sponsor" a league. OSL couldn't get a sponsor so Korean Air had to bail them out again, specifically because the daughter of Korean Air's CEO is a huge freaking fan of Brood War. No one is even thinking of sponsoring team 8.
They're both in ridiculously tough spots. BW is on a huge decline and SC2 is growing too slowly because GOM has no idea how to promote their leagues. SC2 is literally the last hope that everyone is clinging onto right now because if they're late LoL is going to devour them and draw all the sponsorship money. SC2 still has many things going for it (for one, it's freaking global). BW does not, it's literally sucked dry at this point.
So stop bitching about sponsoring. Saying that BW sponsors are bigger therefore better doesn't matter because BW is like a balloon that popped and is shrinking and no one is willing to try and pump air back in. At least SC2 has new ways of marketing, but SC2 has a rough as hell road ahead because SC2 is even more dead in Korea but there's some glimmer of potential
Sadly it's not about how good the game is but it's always more about popularity.
A balloon that is popped does not shrink, what remains from the exploded exterior just falls on to the ground and that's the end of it . On other things I am pretty much fine with them combining sc2 and bw under one league although I am more likely to wait for the vods these time to catch on for bw .
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5003 Posts
On March 26 2012 02:33 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 02:28 Milkis wrote:
All of this bitching about BW vs SC2 is retarded right now. Both are struggling. KeSPA knows that BW's time is up -- it is IMPOSSIBLE to get sponsors right now. Absolutely freaking impossible. Even if you had one of the most successful OSLs of all time and a literal cinderella story unfolding in Proleague last season, despite how kickass the leagues was, it's absolutely failing to get sponsors.
Stop comparing sponsors ffs. GOM Leagues are a lot cheaper to sponsor. OSLs cost 5x more than a GOM League to sponsor because there's a lot of fixed costs involved in TV production. No one wanted to sponsor proleague so SK just took one of their subsidiaries and used that to "sponsor" a league. OSL couldn't get a sponsor so Korean Air had to bail them out again, specifically because the daughter of Korean Air's CEO is a huge freaking fan of Brood War. No one is even thinking of sponsoring team 8.
They're both in ridiculously tough spots. BW is on a huge decline and SC2 is growing too slowly because GOM has no idea how to promote their leagues. SC2 is literally the last hope that everyone is clinging onto right now because if they're late LoL is going to devour them and draw all the sponsorship money. SC2 still has many things going for it (for one, it's freaking global). BW does not, it's literally sucked dry at this point.
So stop bitching about sponsoring. Saying that BW sponsors are bigger therefore better doesn't matter because BW is like a balloon that popped and is shrinking and no one is willing to try and pump air back in. At least SC2 has new ways of marketing, but SC2 has a rough as hell road ahead because SC2 is even more dead in Korea but there's some glimmer of potential
Sadly it's not about how good the game is but it's always more about popularity. A balloon that is popped does not shrink, what remains from the exploded exterior just falls on to the ground and that's the end of it . On other things I am pretty much fine with them combining sc2 and bw under one league although I am more likely to wait for the vods these time to catch on for bw .
Only if it goes boom.. i wanted something like a hole in the balloon causing a leak or something haha since. I just wanted to pick something that shrinks in size very rapidly that can "technically" be refilled.
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On March 26 2012 02:28 Milkis wrote:
All of this bitching about BW vs SC2 is retarded right now. Both are struggling. KeSPA knows that BW's time is up -- it is IMPOSSIBLE to get sponsors right now. Absolutely freaking impossible. Even if you had one of the most successful OSLs of all time and a literal cinderella story unfolding in Proleague last season, despite how kickass the leagues was, it's absolutely failing to get sponsors.
Stop comparing sponsors ffs. GOM Leagues are a lot cheaper to sponsor. OSLs cost 5x more than a GOM League to sponsor because there's a lot of fixed costs involved in TV production. No one wanted to sponsor proleague so SK just took one of their subsidiaries and used that to "sponsor" a league. OSL couldn't get a sponsor so Korean Air had to bail them out again, specifically because the daughter of Korean Air's CEO is a huge freaking fan of Brood War. No one is even thinking of sponsoring team 8.
They're both in ridiculously tough spots. BW is on a huge decline and SC2 is growing too slowly because GOM has no idea how to promote their leagues. SC2 is literally the last hope that everyone is clinging onto right now because if they're late LoL is going to devour them and draw all the sponsorship money. SC2 still has many things going for it (for one, it's freaking global). BW does not, it's literally sucked dry at this point.
So stop bitching about sponsoring. Saying that BW sponsors are bigger therefore better doesn't matter because BW is like a balloon that popped and is shrinking and no one is willing to try and pump air back in. At least SC2 has new ways of marketing, but SC2 has a rough as hell road ahead because SC2 is even more dead in Korea but there's some glimmer of potential
Sadly it's not about how good the game is but it's always more about popularity.
Very informative post, thank you.
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Idd, we should unite instead of bitching against each other. Or else sc (1 and 2) will be dwarfed by LoL.
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wow look at how liberal the Gomtv dudes are, Kespa looks like a douchebag in comparison, with all the bigotry they casues years ago. Blizzard should just skip Kespa and talk to OGN directly, if that is possible at all o_o.
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On March 26 2012 02:03 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 01:32 RoboPuG wrote:
The hypocrisy and disrespect from a lot of sc2 fans is staggering.
You want Broodwar to die, even though most of you are trying to say it nicely, yet you want to be a part of the same system that built Broodwar into the mainstream sport it became in Korea and ride the coattails of it's success.
You are being incredibly disrespecful towards the people and companies that buildt the foundation for Broodwar and it's players that made it reach the general population.
If this is really what you want then sc2 dosen't deserve to be a part of ProLeague.
Obviously Kespa/OGN etc are free to do what they want. If sc2 is the only way to keep ProLeague alive then fine, do it, but mixing bw & sc2 is a bad idea. Separate sc2-league would be fine. Those who want to watch it and those who don't wont have to. Forcing it on the viewers will only make things worse. But you're perfectly fine with all the BW guys coming in here telling us how SC2 is worthless and should die before BW does and how we're all stupid ignorant and jerks, right? Sorry man but respect is not a one way street, if you want the SC2 fans to be nice to you, you gotta be nice to them too. Just because you support the game that came first doesn't give you the right to shit on and verbally abuse everyone who plays and supports the game that came after.
I never said that I'm okay with the sc2-bashing from BW-guys. That's not okay. I respect sc2 as a game and I'm not trying to fuel the fire so to speak but this idea of combining bw & sc2 into one league with alternating sets of bw & sc2 is just bad. It won't help either game. It will only lead to more hate between bw-fans and sc2-fans and that's not what anyone wants.
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On March 26 2012 02:22 jpak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 02:10 hunts wrote:On March 26 2012 02:06 jpak wrote:On March 26 2012 02:03 hunts wrote:On March 26 2012 01:32 RoboPuG wrote:
The hypocrisy and disrespect from a lot of sc2 fans is staggering.
You want Broodwar to die, even though most of you are trying to say it nicely, yet you want to be a part of the same system that built Broodwar into the mainstream sport it became in Korea and ride the coattails of it's success.
You are being incredibly disrespecful towards the people and companies that buildt the foundation for Broodwar and it's players that made it reach the general population.
If this is really what you want then sc2 dosen't deserve to be a part of ProLeague.
Obviously Kespa/OGN etc are free to do what they want. If sc2 is the only way to keep ProLeague alive then fine, do it, but mixing bw & sc2 is a bad idea. Separate sc2-league would be fine. Those who want to watch it and those who don't wont have to. Forcing it on the viewers will only make things worse. But you're perfectly fine with all the BW guys coming in here telling us how SC2 is worthless and should die before BW does and how we're all stupid ignorant and jerks, right? Sorry man but respect is not a one way street, if you want the SC2 fans to be nice to you, you gotta be nice to them too. Just because you support the game that came first doesn't give you the right to shit on and verbally abuse everyone who plays and supports the game that came after. When you don't respect a game, you don't respect those who play it, either. And SC2 does not deserve my respect for being a spectacukar disappointment to the legendary game that this site was founded upon. Well then logically should you be surprised when you get no respect back, with your attitude? And really that is such a flawed paradigm to have. That's like me saying "well, I don't respect american cars because they're low quality and break down often, so I will disrespect and shit on everyone who drives an american car." I expected so much out of one game and it failed to deliver even 25% of that expection. Being so sorely disappointed like that tends to bring out the worst in me, and yes, I did not think that statement through. I will say this, though: have you tried immersing yourself in BW? I have tried to immerse myself in SC2, over and over, even going to MLG Providence and barcrafts, but the whole time I was wishing I was watching BW, or even a better RTS than that. In fact, I ended up playing mafia on the MLG floor with fellow TLers who felt the same way. Have you at least tried to tune into some PL broadcasts? English is no excuse since sayle rebroadcasts the matches in english.
To answer this on a personal note before I leave to watch the rest of MLG at barcraft. I grew up on SC1 and BW. I was about 10 or so? When BW came out, I remember saving up allowance just to be able to buy BW the day it came out. It was an awesome game and I loved it. Regretably I never got into 1v1 because I was a dumb kid and had the attitude of "oh the games clearly meant for high money maps blizzard doesn't know what they're doing with these low money ladder maps." So I only played BGH  I didn't find out that esports existed until I got into SC2 during SC2 beta, in my early 20s. I really really wish I would've gotten into BW 1v1 as a kid. Realistically it's way too late for me to try and learn 1v1 BW now, so I'm really hoping this 6 mineral maps movement that barrin is starting ends up well and makes SC2 a better game and more BW-like. anyway sorry for the long sad rant, I just dislike the idea of being thought of as "a kid too young to remember BW" when people see I'm an SC2 player.
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5003 Posts
On March 26 2012 02:44 vitruvia wrote:
wow look at how liberal the Gomtv dudes are, Kespa looks like a douchebag in comparison, with all the bigotry they casues years ago. Blizzard should just skip Kespa and talk to OGN directly, if that is possible at all o_o.
please dont buy into PR statements...
lets put it this way. no one is "clean" or "good" when it comes to anything here. there's no such thing as "being liberal" or anything like that cause it's just pure pr statements
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Sweet, the Milkis posts are always some of the most informative in these threads, though perhaps not the most reassuring.
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On March 25 2012 10:30 Trumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 10:26 Forikorder wrote:On March 25 2012 10:25 1Eris1 wrote:On March 25 2012 10:21 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On March 25 2012 08:33 1Eris1 wrote:On March 25 2012 08:26 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On March 25 2012 03:43 masterbreti wrote:On March 25 2012 03:39 Glioburd wrote:On March 25 2012 02:53 DeadBull wrote:On March 25 2012 02:48 Glioburd wrote:
I just hope that good BW pros will not switch on SC2. It would be painful to see Flash or JD losing to coinflip guys like MKP or any foreigner. MKP is a coinflip guy? fuck you man, he's probably the hardest practicing sc2 pro on earth No, SC2 is a coinflip game. I don't doubt about MKP practice time, just see the difference of level between him and the top on BW. Fu too btw. MKP doesn't practice as hard as people think, but he does practice a lot, just not as much as many players his level or even lower than him. A lot of it has to do with his style and how he practices. Also being a former BW pro is a big factor. One word: ForGG. The best being an ex-BW pro can do for you, at least from what we've seen thus far, is prove that you have the determination and talent to succeed at RTS gaming. Nothing more, nothing less. These days, when comparing success in the two games, it seems like BW just weeds out the talentless and lazy more than anything else. Doesn't seem to be a golden pass into roflstomping all the greatest SC2 pros. Err, all the best SC2 players atm have played BW though? I looked through the first 5-7 players who have held Code S that came to mind on Liquipedia, and of them, only Leenock played BW, and at that at an amateur level. A lot of our top players didn't come from BW. I know quite a bit that didn't come from anywhere, or came from different places, like WC3. Moon, Grubby and Naniwa, some of our very best, came from that game. Um, are you kidding me? Drg, mma, MVP, mc, nestea, mkp, etc, basically any top player except polt played BW how many of those were actually legends in BW though? i know NesTea wasnt, and i know MC wasnt so its probably jsut a coincidence that they played BW lmao, I love this logic. There are only ~5 people who have ever played bw following your reasoning.
The logic is that they just happened to play BW, and that it does not directly correlate to success in SC2. The logic is not that they did not play BW. He and I are describing the relationship as more of a "they just happened to play this game" as opposed to "they played BW, so they MUST be good at SC2!"
Two of our greatest Zergs of all time, Leenock and Nestea, were pretty bad at BW and yet they are at the top of the world in SC2. In BW, ForGG was an order of magnitude above what Leenock and Nestea could even dream of acheiving and yet in SC2 he is lesser than them. BW was monstrously popular in Korea (and most likely still is), so of course a lot of our pros played it at some point, and if you were competitive in the game, then you carry over multiple advantages that others would have had to train for months, like faster fingers, that allow you to get into the competitive scene quicker. But, and here is the key point, BW success does not directly carry over to SC2 success. RTS games in general have a lot of similarities, let alone direct sequels, so there is a fair degree of skills in one carrying over to the other, but it does not mean success in one directly correlates to skill in the other. If that was the case, ForGG would've already cemented his place as top 2-3 in the world by now as our current former BW pros cannot even compare to him, barring Nada, who I heard wasn't even trying that much to win these days.
I am, of course, not excluding Bonjwa level players, like Nada, Iloveoov and Flash, from dominating SC2, but that is only because, even in BW, they were outliers. They were worlds beyond anyone else in their time, and have the talent, work ethic and experience to succeed in almost anything.
I am, of course, excluding Boxer from the above exceptions because he hailed from a time when the overall level of skill was far lower than the above competitors had to face. From what I heard, he was a pioneer first and foremost, and thus, now that we have all learned from his great contributions, he should not be able to be as successful as he once was.
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I don't wanna start the whole sc VS LoL stuff but could anyone explain to me WHY LoL is so popular? and I mean popular as in watching it, not playing it. (I dont think LoL is a bad game, but for WATCHING it seems kind of boring, I dunno) Enlighten me in a PM if you have an answer.
As for blizz negotiating : Anything that helps starcraft, be it broodwar or wings of liberty, it can only be positive. Sure BW is declining, and sc2 isnt doing as well as we would like, but the more people who love sc, the happier it makes me. So if blizzard wants to bring sc2 out there, even if it makes bw decline even more, I am still happy that they are using as many tools as possible to make the game we love a game that everyone loves. (and ofcourse they want money, but thats ok)
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On March 26 2012 03:19 []Phase[] wrote:
I don't wanna start the whole sc VS LoL stuff but could anyone explain to me WHY LoL is so popular? and I mean popular as in watching it, not playing it. (I dont think LoL is a bad game, but for WATCHING it seems kind of boring, I dunno) Enlighten me in a PM if you have an answer.
As for blizz negotiating : Anything that helps starcraft, be it broodwar or wings of liberty, it can only be positive. Sure BW is declining, and sc2 isnt doing as well as we would like, but the more people who love sc, the happier it makes me. So if blizzard wants to bring sc2 out there, even if it makes bw decline even more, I am still happy that they are using as many tools as possible to make the game we love a game that everyone loves. (and ofcourse they want money, but thats ok)
LoL having a much larger playerbase due to it being free to play is a big factor I believe.
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On March 26 2012 02:55 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 02:44 vitruvia wrote:
wow look at how liberal the Gomtv dudes are, Kespa looks like a douchebag in comparison, with all the bigotry they casues years ago. Blizzard should just skip Kespa and talk to OGN directly, if that is possible at all o_o. please dont buy into PR statements... lets put it this way. no one is "clean" or "good" when it comes to anything here. there's no such thing as "being liberal" or anything like that cause it's just pure pr statements
at least someone cares about PR D: because in S.Korea, appearance is (almost) everything :D
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On March 26 2012 02:55 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 02:44 vitruvia wrote:
wow look at how liberal the Gomtv dudes are, Kespa looks like a douchebag in comparison, with all the bigotry they casues years ago. Blizzard should just skip Kespa and talk to OGN directly, if that is possible at all o_o. please dont buy into PR statements... lets put it this way. no one is "clean" or "good" when it comes to anything here. there's no such thing as "being liberal" or anything like that cause it's just pure pr statements
For now it's just pure PR, yes. But if the Blizzard-KeSPA negotiations go smoothly and KeSPA starts a SC2 proleague or tournament? Then that stops being "just PR", considering how KeSPA boycotted GomTV when it tried to get into the BW scene.
I hope you're not arguing that no company can be "clean" or "good", because that just isn't true. Take game publishers: You have EA, which delivers shitty service and expensive games through its Origin service, inconveniencing users who would otherwise prefer to buy and play games such as Battlefield 3 and Mass Effect 3 without having to use Origin. You have Ubisoft, which requires "always-on" internet connection DRM for all its games and recently screwed over its customers by disallowing them access to their games while moving its DRM servers, and does things like trying to sell Dungeon Hunter Alliance for the PS Vita as a launch title for US$40.00- while it sells the same game for the PS3 for US$13.00, and as a Mac game for US$0.99. And then you have Steam, which is pretty great all around.
I know I went on a tangent there, but my point is: It's not "all business", and not all that companies do can be attributed to PR. Some companies DO treat its customers better than others, and behave with much more civility and goodwill. So far, GomTV has been treating us pretty damn well.
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This news only shows that BW is in a bad spot to get sponsors, I think Kespa is giving the last chance to the Starcraft franchise, it is going to be succesfull in Korea?, I dont think so, you cant expect that SC2 is going to raise in popularity just because it is on TV now. For e-sports in Korea is the time for other genres. It is so sad to see the vanishing of the only real RTS that has had so long life being successfully presented in the e-sport scene.
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Zato, stop making up facts. KeSPA did not boycott GOMTV (at least not until they officially partnered up with Blizzard, which tried to screw them over big time). It was always individual teams that decided to skip GSL for various reasons, while many of them still participated for several seasons and some even wanted to keep doing that before GOMTV withdrew from that enterprise.
GOMTV is not being nice here. Blizzard would simply tell them to get lost after their contract exprires if they did not allow Blizzard to talk directly to KeSPA and do whatever they want.
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I guess its about time...
Condolences to gom for being so chill. I hope gom grows bigger and won't get overshadowed by OGN. Honestly gom has done a great job when korea had no hope in SC2 due to korean drama. they were always the underdog and even shoved around when they tried to go into BW, but now they're a class of their own. SC2 is where its at mostly because of GSL so gotta respect.
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On March 26 2012 04:49 Lokian wrote:
SC2 is where its at mostly because of GSL
Pretty sure that's why Blizzard is talking to KeSPA now..
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On March 26 2012 04:50 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 04:49 Lokian wrote:
SC2 is where its at mostly because of GSL Pretty sure that's why Blizzard is talking to KeSPA now..
Blizzard whats a global scene, I do not see how Blizzard is talking to KeSPA in order to achieve that goal. More Korean tournaments means less reason for Korean players to leave Korea. Not saying this is bad, but I don't see how Blizzard is talking to KeSPA in order to improve SC2's global stance.
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EPT
