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Knock off the SC2 vs BW vs LoL vs whatever crap please. |
On March 26 2012 06:12 fabiano wrote:In Korea, the only place where eSports is actually somehow relevant in their culture/society, BW is still very very popular, according with our own korean fellow TLers, unlike SC2 which is basically about to die without ever being big. Replacing BW with SC2 (which for many people there I guess, without any solid backup, it's a 'fake BW' or 'BW wanna be') may cause SC2 to get even more unpopular. I followed SC2 in its beginning but got bored long ago and stopped doing so, but at least back then SC2 was a huge mess, no central organization or anything, no professional association or guidelines for player contracts/trading, tournaments scattered all around each one making their own thing and teams coming to life, teams dying 2 weeks later, a lot of player trades drama and all that mess. So having an iron hand like KeSPA to take care of all that shit is actually one positive step. But taking away what is perfect for a promisse which is fastly proving to be not very promising at all will make fans fucking angry.
this echoes my exact opinion, and what seems to be a popular opinion based on input from korean fans/just seeing interaction with alot of BW/SC2 pros/ex pros who stream games and have commented on the scene there. sc2 is dying, in terms of popularity, LoL is crushing, (which is why there were even crazy rumors of like iloveoov going to coach LoL or whatever rather then go to SC2 [or even back to BW coaching] after military). it's unfortunate but sc2 just never did it for me, i enjoyed the novelty of it, the flashy cameras and the big explosions, and the higher qualities, but once i got introduced to competitive broodwar through competitive sc2, i felt myself feeling really sad that a) broodwar would probably be pushed out because of money and power thanks to Blizzard and b) sc2 will probably not live up to the promise that broodwar had.
then again, the other part of me wants to just be like "lol remember broodwar games on island maps, and 2v2 proleague, and etc sc2 has plenty of time to grow" so i'll give sc2 a chance with HOTS and further patches. but as of right now, i'm more just bummed as a new broodwar fan ex sc2 fan that broodwar might come to a close.
from a pragmatic standpoint i think that flash/jd/bisu/stork/stats/best/fantasy/effort/leta/sea/light etc. all the s class players will probably go into the military at some pt during sc2 which would eliminate that as an option (unless an ACE model emerged in sc2) and until then ride the BW train out into the sunset. but, the money-driven-greed-acknowledging part of me recognizes that it's probably a possibility they drop BW for LoL where the real popularity in Korea exists (and internationally for that matter) with a smattering of them taking up SC2.in a world where money ultimately controls everything, and popularity leads to money, in this case it seems like LoL is going to take the reigns in Korea. in watching proleague you'll see commercials and spots on OGN for LoL, with never a reference to SC2, it's kind of sad.
oh well, /intellectual rant.
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5003 Posts
On March 26 2012 05:36 palexhur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 04:54 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On March 26 2012 04:50 moopie wrote:On March 26 2012 04:49 Lokian wrote:
SC2 is where its at mostly because of GSL Pretty sure that's why Blizzard is talking to KeSPA now.. Blizzard whats a global scene, I do not see how Blizzard is talking to KeSPA in order to achieve that goal. More Korean tournaments means less reason for Korean players to leave Korea. Not saying this is bad, but I don't see how Blizzard is talking to KeSPA in order to improve SC2's global stance. Blizzard is interested in selling SC2 copies in Korea, simple as that, you can see that Korea was the most important country for SC:BW sellings, so stock holders of Activision must be asking what happened with SC2 in Korea.
Not quite.
Blizzard invested A LOT to try and get Koreans hooked on SC2. It's not really "simple as that", since they actually tried to promote the games in Korea. For example, did you know the game was free for every Korean for ~5 months after its release? They spent 30 million on advertising. The point was that they had some level of confidence that they could emulate the success of BW in Korea... and failed. GSL's terrible promotion didn't quite help their case either.
The fact of the matter is that Blizzard approached everything completely wrong and didn't pay attention to the details in all of this.
BW died because Blizzard started enforcing IP rights. This led to leagues being called "illegal leagues". Who the fuck would want to sponsor a league like that? There was so much conflict, so much drama, so much uncertainty throughout the entire two years. My personal opinion always has been that this enforcing IP rights had more of an impact in the decline of Brood War than the match fixing scandal. It's bad. This leads to...
in watching proleague you'll see commercials and spots on OGN for LoL, with never a reference to SC2, it's kind of sad.
Which is what led to this. Blizzard only reversed their stance around May last year. They did a complete 180 and just decided to negotiate with KeSPA and reached an agreement. Meanwhile, GOM still had 100% rights to SC2. KeSPA/OGN wanted to do SC2, of course (they've hinted at this during a press release, actually). The issue now was GOM. Imagine how GOM would feel. They worked to build the SC2 scene in Korea, and now KeSPA and OGN are coming in. They have to make sure that GSL remains the premiere league... you can see where there are some heavy conflict of interests here. There was actually a few close cases where an all out war was going to go down but they never really materialized.
That's why you don't see reference to SC2 on OGN: They can't. WCG was their one loophole OGN had to run SC2, so they ran that. OGN expressed that they wanted to run an SC2 league badly, but things weren't working out with GOM. Figures, because GOM and OGN don't seem to have the best relationships.
For now it's just pure PR, yes. But if the Blizzard-KeSPA negotiations go smoothly and KeSPA starts a SC2 proleague or tournament? Then that stops being "just PR", considering how KeSPA boycotted GomTV when it tried to get into the BW scene.
One thing I'll say is that GOM can release whatever statement, KeSPA can release whatever statement, but KeSPA's statements were always a bit more... "accurate". Blizzard -KeSPA negotiations? More like a blizzard KeSPA OGN partnership at this point. That's why Blizzard came in and took away Gom's rights. KeSPA was considering a SC2 league from a long time ago.
Re: Boycott. What KeSPA officially did was just no longer "officially" sanction a tournament: meaning that not every team *had* to participate. This led many of the top teams to just leave because all of them just want to concentrate on PL (SKT has a track record of even not attending Starleagues for PL). Now, the "reasoning" behind that... well, the teams do have a pretty good reason that in that the schedule was extremely rough for the players to handle (3 leagues and PL? Yeah.), but obviously there could be more petty reasons like that. But I don't think it's fair to label it as "boycott"
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pretty much, the teams were forced to play in other leagues since those leagues were sanctioned by kespa and were no longer obligated to play at gomtv? I never knew that teams had to do that. i wonder if players that came back for MSL/OSL would just not play because of time by bulk?
Anyways, even if BW/sc2 took a big blow by the IP rights, it was a necessary action to ensure other IP can be used fairly. It's korea's problem and this implosion was going to happen sooner or later. I just hope korea can overcome their grudge soon so that we can move on and have better games.
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sigh .... bw please dont go...  but good for esports anyway. ;(
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5003 Posts
On March 26 2012 09:11 Lokian wrote:
pretty much, the teams were forced to play in other leagues since those leagues were sanctioned by kespa and were no longer obligated to play at gomtv? I never knew that teams had to do that. i wonder if players that came back for MSL/OSL would just not play because of time by bulk?
Anyways, even if BW/sc2 took a big blow by the IP rights, it was a necessary action to ensure other IP can be used fairly. It's korea's problem and this implosion was going to happen sooner or later. I just hope korea can overcome their grudge soon so that we can move on and have better games.
I'm not too sure about the details. But when it's KeSPA sanctioned, it pretty much meant that the tournament would be counted as KeSPA rankings. I think once that was removed many teams just decided not to participate. Of course, the exact details on this is fuzzy as hell since I can't find any solid sources on it one way or another.
The issue was that Blizzard wanted money, which KeSPA didn't have. To be fair on KeSPA it wasn't very clear what Blizzard meant by "recognizing IP rights". It's easy to say "recognize my IP rights", but the answer to when asked "how" can differ quite a bit.
The stupid thing KeSPA did was argue that like retards instead of just saying "yeah we understand but we dont have money" instead of trying to use dumb arguments to try and justify otherwise ~_~
It also didn't help that there were a lot of other events that were blamed on KeSPA that weren't really their fault.
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On March 26 2012 08:54 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 05:36 palexhur wrote:On March 26 2012 04:54 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On March 26 2012 04:50 moopie wrote:On March 26 2012 04:49 Lokian wrote:
SC2 is where its at mostly because of GSL Pretty sure that's why Blizzard is talking to KeSPA now.. Blizzard whats a global scene, I do not see how Blizzard is talking to KeSPA in order to achieve that goal. More Korean tournaments means less reason for Korean players to leave Korea. Not saying this is bad, but I don't see how Blizzard is talking to KeSPA in order to improve SC2's global stance. Blizzard is interested in selling SC2 copies in Korea, simple as that, you can see that Korea was the most important country for SC:BW sellings, so stock holders of Activision must be asking what happened with SC2 in Korea. Not quite. Blizzard invested A LOT to try and get Koreans hooked on SC2. It's not really "simple as that", since they actually tried to promote the games in Korea. For example, did you know the game was free for every Korean for ~5 months after its release? They spent 30 million on advertising. The point was that they had some level of confidence that they could emulate the success of BW in Korea... and failed. GSL's terrible promotion didn't quite help their case either. The fact of the matter is that Blizzard approached everything completely wrong and didn't pay attention to the details in all of this. BW died because Blizzard started enforcing IP rights. This led to leagues being called "illegal leagues". Who the fuck would want to sponsor a league like that? There was so much conflict, so much drama, so much uncertainty throughout the entire two years. My personal opinion always has been that this enforcing IP rights had more of an impact in the decline of Brood War than the match fixing scandal. It's bad. This leads to... Show nested quote +in watching proleague you'll see commercials and spots on OGN for LoL, with never a reference to SC2, it's kind of sad.
Which is what led to this. Blizzard only reversed their stance around May last year. They did a complete 180 and just decided to negotiate with KeSPA and reached an agreement. Meanwhile, GOM still had 100% rights to SC2. KeSPA/OGN wanted to do SC2, of course (they've hinted at this during a press release, actually). The issue now was GOM. Imagine how GOM would feel. They worked to build the SC2 scene in Korea, and now KeSPA and OGN are coming in. They have to make sure that GSL remains the premiere league... you can see where there are some heavy conflict of interests here. There was actually a few close cases where an all out war was going to go down but they never really materialized. That's why you don't see reference to SC2 on OGN: They can't. WCG was their one loophole OGN had to run SC2, so they ran that. OGN expressed that they wanted to run an SC2 league badly, but things weren't working out with GOM. Figures, because GOM and OGN don't seem to have the best relationships. Show nested quote +For now it's just pure PR, yes. But if the Blizzard-KeSPA negotiations go smoothly and KeSPA starts a SC2 proleague or tournament? Then that stops being "just PR", considering how KeSPA boycotted GomTV when it tried to get into the BW scene. One thing I'll say is that GOM can release whatever statement, KeSPA can release whatever statement, but KeSPA's statements were always a bit more... "accurate". Blizzard -KeSPA negotiations? More like a blizzard KeSPA OGN partnership at this point. That's why Blizzard came in and took away Gom's rights. KeSPA was considering a SC2 league from a long time ago. Re: Boycott. What KeSPA officially did was just no longer "officially" sanction a tournament: meaning that not every team *had* to participate. This led many of the top teams to just leave because all of them just want to concentrate on PL (SKT has a track record of even not attending Starleagues for PL). Now, the "reasoning" behind that... well, the teams do have a pretty good reason that in that the schedule was extremely rough for the players to handle (3 leagues and PL? Yeah.), but obviously there could be more petty reasons like that. But I don't think it's fair to label it as "boycott"
Very insightful. I love what you do Milkis ^^)
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"Its inevitable. Everything must progress and bw is getting old.
User was warned for this post"
Just curious why was this user warned for this post? Was it originally much worse but edited now to look not as bad? That's just an opinion that didn't direct revulsion against anyone. That's not good if you can get warned for having an open opinion on such a matter just because it may upset someone with power to read it.
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On March 25 2012 02:34 MetalLobster wrote:
I don't see why they have to eliminate BW
There will come a point when Brood War doesn't have enough spectatorship to warrent it's own existence as an e-sport. Personally, since BW has already seen massive spectatorship in the past, I think BW will still be around for at least another year. But SC2 is approaching the point where it's dynamic strategy will match or even overshadow that of BW's, and when that happens, there will be no real reason to not stop watching BW except for reminiscings sake.
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Re: Boycott. What KeSPA officially did was just no longer "officially" sanction a tournament: meaning that not every team *had* to participate. This led many of the top teams to just leave because all of them just want to concentrate on PL (SKT has a track record of even not attending Starleagues for PL). Now, the "reasoning" behind that... well, the teams do have a pretty good reason that in that the schedule was extremely rough for the players to handle (3 leagues and PL? Yeah.), but obviously there could be more petty reasons like that. But I don't think it's fair to label it as "boycott"
Hold on I don't think GOM sever had all of the teams the teams season 3 only had 8. Season 4 only had 5 teams agree and I remember it was said that those were the ones who were more independent from kespa. link
rotinegg United States. October 24 2009 09:33. Posts 1472 PM Profile Blog Quote #
On October 23 2009 15:13 eMbrace wrote:
what do the korean comments of the article say? i want to know what they think =/
So to summarize here were some popular trains of thought:
-The teams who decided not to participate are the ones that are kespa's puppets. i.e. the ones that decided to participate in a stupid Special Force (FPS game) league instead.
-Kespa sucks dick
-Gom Classic commentators all sucked, Korean and English, except Tasteless (I found this to be funny... the small-ish portion of English speakers in Korea actually enjoyed Tasteless' commentaries over the Korean ones. They hated SDM though)
-Korean esports is coming to an end
-When SC2 comes out Gom Classic will own Kespa and everything else with support from Blizzard
-Proleague is over-emphasized, they should have gone with the 3 days per week resolution that was proposed.
-Although its understandable, with its tiny fanbase and sucky commentaries, it still sucks that Gom Classic 4 had to be shut down.
-Gom Classic could have become a good individual league if Kespa hadn't interrupted and cut it off at its roots
Pretty much the same thoughts we have
Do you know if it is true that Kespa had more influence over some teams from others? Also the top 3 from the GOM classic that were supposed to go to blizzcon last year did not and they had to reach far down the rankings to find someone. link
motbob United States. September 14 2009 17:08. Posts 10093 PM Profile Blog Quote #
OMG STX/KESPA/GOM DRAMA KEPT JULYZERG FROM GOING TO BLIZZCON
too bad julyzerg can't goto blizzcon I know how much that boy wanted to go, he was next in line to go, after flash and iris. STX stood by KESPA, hate it when players gets left out because of politics. Blizzard holding hands with GOMTV isn't affecting KESPA at all.
THERE NEEDS TO BE 20 PAGES OF RAGE ABOUT THIS
But thanks a lot for the posts they are very interesting!
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5003 Posts
On March 26 2012 09:55 coolcor wrote:Show nested quote +Re: Boycott. What KeSPA officially did was just no longer "officially" sanction a tournament: meaning that not every team *had* to participate. This led many of the top teams to just leave because all of them just want to concentrate on PL (SKT has a track record of even not attending Starleagues for PL). Now, the "reasoning" behind that... well, the teams do have a pretty good reason that in that the schedule was extremely rough for the players to handle (3 leagues and PL? Yeah.), but obviously there could be more petty reasons like that. But I don't think it's fair to label it as "boycott" Hold on I don't think GOM sever had all of the teams the teams season 3 only had 8. Season 4 only had 5 teams agree and I remember it was said that those were the ones who were more independent from kespa. link Show nested quote + rotinegg United States. October 24 2009 09:33. Posts 1472 PM Profile Blog Quote #
On October 23 2009 15:13 eMbrace wrote:
what do the korean comments of the article say? i want to know what they think =/
So to summarize here were some popular trains of thought:
-The teams who decided not to participate are the ones that are kespa's puppets. i.e. the ones that decided to participate in a stupid Special Force (FPS game) league instead.
-Kespa sucks dick
-Gom Classic commentators all sucked, Korean and English, except Tasteless (I found this to be funny... the small-ish portion of English speakers in Korea actually enjoyed Tasteless' commentaries over the Korean ones. They hated SDM though)
-Korean esports is coming to an end
-When SC2 comes out Gom Classic will own Kespa and everything else with support from Blizzard
-Proleague is over-emphasized, they should have gone with the 3 days per week resolution that was proposed.
-Although its understandable, with its tiny fanbase and sucky commentaries, it still sucks that Gom Classic 4 had to be shut down.
-Gom Classic could have become a good individual league if Kespa hadn't interrupted and cut it off at its roots
Pretty much the same thoughts we have Do you know if it is true that Kespa had more influence over some teams from others? Also the top 3 from the GOM classic that were supposed to go to blizzcon last year did not and they had to reach far down the rankings to find someone. linkShow nested quote + motbob United States. September 14 2009 17:08. Posts 10093 PM Profile Blog Quote #
OMG STX/KESPA/GOM DRAMA KEPT JULYZERG FROM GOING TO BLIZZCON
too bad julyzerg can't goto blizzcon I know how much that boy wanted to go, he was next in line to go, after flash and iris. STX stood by KESPA, hate it when players gets left out because of politics. Blizzard holding hands with GOMTV isn't affecting KESPA at all.
THERE NEEDS TO BE 20 PAGES OF RAGE ABOUT THIS But thanks a lot for the posts they are very interesting!
No idea regarding any theories about KeSPA powers of balance. Anything that assumes anything about it is purely speculation.
Remember those are "Trains of thought" rather than anything else. I would take it with a grain of salt (also take my points regarding the boycott with a grain of salt, because everything I know could be pure PR play and it could have been a literal boycott)
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On March 26 2012 09:37 TheToaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 02:34 MetalLobster wrote:
I don't see why they have to eliminate BW There will come a point when Brood War doesn't have enough spectatorship to warrent it's own existence as an e-sport. Personally, since BW has already seen massive spectatorship in the past, I think BW will still be around for at least another year. But SC2 is approaching the point where it's dynamic strategy will match or even overshadow that of BW's, and when that happens, there will be no real reason to not stop watching BW except for reminiscings sake.
What? You realize just because you see there being a huge interest in BW amongst foreigners doesn't mean that the interest in korea is dying right? In fact, Sc2 in korea is dying if anything.
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On March 26 2012 09:55 coolcor wrote:Hold on I don't think GOM sever had all of the teams the teams season 3 only had 8. Season 4 only had 5 teams agree and I remember it was said that those were the ones who were more independent from kespa. link
On October 30 2010 02:43 moopie wrote:
The only teams that never participated were MBCGAME HERO, OnGameNet Sparkyz and eSTRO, for obvious reasons.
Teams participating in the GOMTV Classic (or willing to participate in the case of S4):
Season 1 (7 Teams): CJ, Stars, KTF, Oz, STX, WeMade, KHAN.
Season 2 (9 Teams): CJ, Stars, KTF, Oz, STX, WeMade, KHAN, SKT, ACE.
Season 3 (8 Teams): CJ, Stars, KTF, Oz, STX, WeMade, KHAN, ACE.
Season 4 (5 Teams): CJ, Stars, Oz, Wemade, KHAN.
With S4, GOM decided not go through with it with only 5 teams (only 2 less than S1).
On October 30 2010 04:58 moopie wrote:
Given that 3 of the team sponsors had conflicting interests and weren't interested in joining at all, that left 9 potential teams to play for GOM. The season participation numbers are actually pretty high given 9 potential teams (7, 9, 8, 5). It was GOM that decided that it wasn't worth it to them to run S4 with only 5 teams.
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So milkis mentioned how gomtv has a conflict of interest. Partnering with KeSPA for the greater good of SC2 means sacrificing being the "premier" league. Gomtv should give it a shot, it's not like GSL by itself is growing, and there were room for two premier leagues in BW's heyday.
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On March 26 2012 10:11 W2 wrote:
So milkis mentioned how gomtv has a conflict of interest. Partnering with KeSPA for the greater good of SC2 means sacrificing being the "premier" league. Gomtv should give it a shot, it's not like GSL by itself is growing, and there were room for two premier leagues in BW's heyday.
Have it be like any pro-sports Leagues out there.
One Title, 2 Large Leagues with sub-divisions, and at the end of the season; have the winner of each League face each other for the title.
Yay Nay?
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Surprisingly few ignorant elitists in the last few pages, and more intelligent debate, unlike the first 30 or so pages... I like it
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On March 26 2012 10:11 W2 wrote:
So milkis mentioned how gomtv has a conflict of interest. Partnering with KeSPA for the greater good of SC2 means sacrificing being the "premier" league. Gomtv should give it a shot, it's not like GSL by itself is growing, and there were room for two premier leagues in BW's heyday.
If ProLeague fully features SC2 on OGN, then the future is not looking the brightest in the interest of GOM. After expiration of the broadcast license, OGN will devour the league as it is played during primetime TV slot with much bigger financial backing. Additionally, ancient grudge between both organizations will also magnify the historical conflict of the two.
So unless that GOM can successfully attain a TV broadcast station with sponsorship of international cooperation, days ahead are looking to be pretty grim.
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On March 26 2012 09:36 Di3s3l wrote:
"Its inevitable. Everything must progress and bw is getting old.
User was warned for this post"
Just curious why was this user warned for this post? Was it originally much worse but edited now to look not as bad? That's just an opinion that didn't direct revulsion against anyone. That's not good if you can get warned for having an open opinion on such a matter just because it may upset someone with power to read it.
It's taboo to imply BW is dying. Simple as that, it's a rude gesture to the Brood War community.
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Australia7535 Posts
If it's destined that BW is to go soon it's hard to think the community will jump ship to an unworthy sequel. The difference between the two games will be made insanely clear if this if this rumored alternating proleague does happen.
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On March 26 2012 10:31 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 09:36 Di3s3l wrote:
"Its inevitable. Everything must progress and bw is getting old.
User was warned for this post"
Just curious why was this user warned for this post? Was it originally much worse but edited now to look not as bad? That's just an opinion that didn't direct revulsion against anyone. That's not good if you can get warned for having an open opinion on such a matter just because it may upset someone with power to read it. It's taboo to imply BW is dying. Simple as that, it's a rude gesture to the Brood War community.
Still, it's just an opinion. To ban opinions on a forum doesn't create discussion, it filters the conversation to how the people with power want it to go, and discourages future opinions from being posted. Whether you agree or disagree with it. I don't see the vulgar, nor the reason to give the warning. I LOVE BW still, I took no offense to that statement.
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Brood War was not going to last forever. I believe it's best to retire Brood War now - when it's reaching the beginning of the end - so we don't have to see a struggling BW. Much like we hate to see struggling sports legends play the tail end of their careers, I would not want to see BW decline that badly. Better retire it now - with much prestige intact - than later.
Just my 2cents.
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EPT
